have to blow up before they get ruled as "non adequate" equipment in the AMA ??? Hacking has a 150 + MPH launch in the air and guess where everyone's pointing :-/
Does someone gotta get seriously injured before teams start outlawing their top riders from riding on Dunlop rubber ???
won't happen as long as the guys that are winning and in the points are on dunlops. most of the guys on an ama grind are on dunlops. all the factories, minus ducati, run dunlops.
I know, but that's the problem. Endorsements and money are making the saftey issue of the tires get "overlooked" by some people. ::)
MIchelins and Pirellis have both done that also.
I had a Pirelli explode on my car once. Maybe the DOT should outlaw Pirelli's from street vehicles ::).
Racing is dangerous especially in the pro level. THey are pushing equipment to the edge. Even teh tires we get are supposedly only rated for 149mph even though they are race DOT's.
Two Dunlops would be fine for me... :-/
QuoteMIchelins and Pirellis have both done that also.
I had a Pirelli explode on my car once. Maybe the DOT should outlaw Pirelli's from street vehicles ::).
That's how the whole Ford/Firestone thing came about last year. You'd be surprised how many times a real problem gets overlooked one way or another.
My whole point is that all the bike manufacturers are putting out bikes left and right with more an more power, but yet the tires are lagging for those that can actually put the bike to it's maximum potential. Myself, I could care less, because I know I couldn't put any of the manufacturers tires to the point of actual failure nor ride a bike to that extreme, but for the guys doing it, they need to step up and get the tire manufacturers off their ass and start putting out tires that can hold the abuse. I know they are working on it, but how many times have you seen a MotoGP spec. tire blow up compared to a DOT or Race that is used in AMA? What's the difference, and how much more could a MotoGP tire actually cost compared to the ones being used in the AMA? Hell, all the really fast guys are on factory teams with damn near endless bank accounts anyways :-/
I'll take a couple Dunlops. (I love em.)
You love 'em cause you never get them over 95 MPH! ;D
QuoteYou love 'em cause you never get them over 95 MPH! ;D
;D Good one ;D
*WAIVER* I am not trying to involved with trash talking. I am just stating the above referenced comment was a homerun *END WAIVER*
;D
Until some other manufaturer steps up with a tire that can perfrom like a Dunlop, you will see everyone that wants to even have a SHOT at winning a race run on them.
Sure, you could run on the BEST Pirelli there is in the world, but that puts you 2.5 seconds off the pace if you go to laguna, even more over a race.
Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, and Dunlop have all had major failures. In the heavy equipment industry, Michelin is notorious for shredding "gators" as they are called. Those big ole big rig tread sections you see on the freeways, 90% of them arent from re-treads! There is a reason they are called the "michelin Mile Markers" and I would think it would be a LOT more dangerous to have a big rig drive tire come apart than a superbike tire...
To run on the edge, you have to push the limits, some times motors go boom, some times tires do, thats just how it is when you push to envelope.
But all that being said, my reccomendation to Ron Barrick was that there be a $10,000 fine to each tire manufacturer for ever catastrophic failure. But I also wanted anyone that oiled the track, for any reason to be fined the same.
Quotehave to blow up before they get ruled as "non adequate" equipment in the AMA ??? Hacking has a 150 + MPH launch in the air and guess where everyone's pointing :-/
Does someone gotta get seriously injured before teams start outlawing their top riders from riding on Dunlop rubber ???
Do you race on Dunlops? If not then you must be the typical internet idiot that feels what you have to say must be important or is that impotent ? in your case.
Ding! :(
Here we go again... :'(
QuoteDo you race on Dunlops? If not then you must be the typical internet idiot that feels what you have to say must be important or is that impotent ? in your case.
This comment wasn't necessary. He is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else.
Based on your statement above just because someone does not race Dunlops, it makes you an idiot. How many of your customers run Michelin's? I know of one for sure.....
Dawn
QuoteBased on your statement above just because someone does not race Dunlops, it makes you an idiot. How many of your customers run Michelin's? I know of one for sure.....
Ok, I race on Michelin's.
But the statement above DOES have merit.
First, Dunlop has some failures at AMA events. Recognize that more riders at AMA events use Dunlops. This includes the teams that get them supplied and the teams that have to buy them. So, we can recognize that there many, many, many Dunlop tires in use at AMA nationals. Given that, a failure happens, now all of them are bad. That is ridiculous to consider that the Dunlop tires are bad.
One can also recognize that the user that had the failure was a rider that could tax the tire. Like Rob said, this is racing.
As for Bridgestone/Firestone on cars, well, these were tires for street use under street conditions...not closed course high load, high speed competition.
Years ago, tires weren't so good.
Now they are better.
I'm a Michelin racer, and I don't see Dunlop's as "non-adequate".
I agree with you Dave...
However Jim's statement:
QuoteIf not then you must be the typical internet idiot that feels what you have to say must be important or is that impotent ? in your case.
... was unconstructive in this conversation and was belittling and inciteful.
Dawn
And Kudos to Dan for showing his Zen-like patience. :D
My beef is that all tire manufacturers need to step up and design better tires, specifically Dunlop because everyone is using them in the AMA. Tires blowing up because of failure is unacceptable by any manufacturer. Again, someone answer why MotoGP spec. tires aren't blowing up like this, or at the regular interval of the Dunlops. After the Spies incident at Road Atlanta, the AMA should have stepped up and said wait a second. Remember a few riders protesting Daytona. Why not do the same and go after Dunlop. The reason I keep referring to Dunlop is that all the teams are using the tires. Common sense tells you that if a tire can't hold up to the abuse, don't use it. But they still are. Sure, the bikes are putting out 200 HP, and the riders are thousandths of a second of lap record every lap, but shouldn't those tire manufacturers be putting out tires that are made for that? It's all down to the safety factor. Kinda like helmets. Everyone wears an Arai because they know it's the best, but some still wear cheaper brands just because they are free. That's just crazy. I'd pay full retail for something before I take some garbage for free just because I didn't have to pay for it.
When your ass is on the line, literally, are you going to accept ANY excuses from ANYONE as to why your saftey is jeopordized?
"You ride harder than the tire can handle." Is that excuse justifible to the rider laying in the hospital?
That's the bottom line. If you have the skill and talent to tax a tire to that extreme, and ride a bike at that level, would you accept the statement "You ride harder than our tire can handle" as to why your laying in a hospital bed? Not acceptable from any manfacturer. If the tire can't hold up, don't use it, and anyone "overlooking" or allowing that as acceptable is just negligent.
I understand that racing is dangerous. But, all we can do because we choose to race, is do everything possible to prevent incident and keep ourselves safe.
Interesting info on this subject in the "By The Numbers" section of Roadracing World...
QuoteDo you race on Dunlops? If not then you must be the typical internet idiot that feels what you have to say must be important or is that impotent ? in your case.
Good one
*WAIVER* I am not trying to involved with trash talking. I am just stating the above referenced comment was a homerun *END WAIVER*
::)
My beef is that "someone" posted free tires to give away, in the classifieds I believe, and has not followed through on the committment. If you can't follow through on the offer, say so, or go back to the WERA boards if they'll have you.
I really couldn't give a rat's behind on not following through on giving something away, for free. However, if you don't have the cajones to come on out and say, " I already gave the tires away to...", scram. Whatever the skirmish was you had over at WERA BBS is starting to resurface here. Take care of the tires, or say that you were mistaken, whatever. I have carefully asked 3 or 4 times now about the tires, in a nice way. It makes me wonder how many others you're stringin' along. >:(
QuoteMy beef is that "someone" posted free tires to give away, in the classifieds I believe, and has not followed through on the committment. If you can't follow through on the offer, say so, or go back to the WERA boards if they'll have you.
ÊI really couldn't give a rat's behind on not following through on giving something away, for free. However, if you don't have the cajones to come on out and say, " I already gave the tires away to...", scram. Whatever the skirmish was you had over at WERA BBS is starting to resurface here. Take care of the tires, or say that you were mistaken, whatever. I have carefully asked 3 or 4 times now about the tires, in a nice way. It makes me wonder how many others you're stringin' along. Ê>:( Ê Ê
I responded to you, twice. ARE YOU COMING TO GINGERMAN for the 3rd time? >:( I didn't give them away.
QuoteI responded to you, twice. ÊARE YOU COMING TO GINGERMAN for the 3rd time? Ê>:( Ê I didn't give them away. Ê
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1090609225;start=6
5th or 6th post down. Looking for the first time I asked still. ::)
QuoteI agree with you Dave...
However Jim's statement:
... was unconstructive in this conversation and was belittling and inciteful.
Dawn
Dawn the point i was trying to make is that something happens and someone gets on some internet site slamming or stirring up stuff. I just assumed this guy rode on another brand of tires. If you want to talk about unconstructive read some of this guys posts here or on the wera board. I will be at Gingerman and if anyone has a beef or complaint about me please feel free to stop by and chat with me anytime.I will be with the Safety First Truck you can find it easily. Sorry if i abused anyone.
AMA series dominated by Dunlop tires on mainly car courses (drag and ovals).heavy production based bikes
MotoGP series dominated by Michelin on motorcycle courses (roadcourses). light race only bikes
I think the weight of the machines is the biggest issue with course design as second ad tire construction methods/manufacturerers being a distant third or even further back.
Well, its a good thing that there were no tire failures in F1 this past weekend... Oh wait... 3 in practice and 1 in the race...
Thats at F1...
Its where they develop new technology that trickles down to us.. F1, AMA and MGP.. Thats where the ultra cutting edge stuff is found. Remember when radial mount brakes and slipper clutches were GP only?
Tire technology trickles down too... It takes time, and it takes some failures to get there.
QuoteTire technology trickles down too... It takes time, and it takes some failures to get there.
Right, but what is acceptable and what is not? Isn't there machinery to emulate tire wear and testing as opposed to putting it on a bike? Can't a machine put a tire thru the same beating that a pro level rider will put to it? Imagine a tire as a heart monitor. Your life depends on it's ability to function correctly. Do you think that they test heart monitors this way? It might not be a good example, but I think you get what I'm saying. Regardless, its a dangerous scenerio either way. I personally feel that tire manufacturers need test tires to extreme limits regardless of the use and if a problem arises, time after time, fix it first, prove it's fixed, then release the production version. Of course, technology has to evolve, but who's responsible for the injured people laying in a hospital bed? Someone has to be. Imagine being in the place of one of these pro riders that ends up in the hospital bed due to a tire failure. What would you do? Continue using the tire knowing that it could happen again at any time? Would you tell your team I'm not running on those again? Quit racing? Same thing goes for anything else. What about leathers. If you bought brand X leathers, and you went down and they didn't protect you, are you going to buy the same brand leathers again? Either way, you are using something for it's functionality. If it's not functioning properly as it's supposed to, why are you still using it?
Let me clarify my point to this whole thread, and make it completely manufactuer bias.
1. You buy a tire, put it on your bike and race with it.
2. You end up in a hospital.
3. You find out that the reason your in the hospital is your tire failed.
4. The manufacturer of the tire explains that they aren't sure why the tire failed, and they are looking into it, or the explanation is that your riding capabilities exceed the capability of the tire.
What would you do about this situation? Do you accept their explanation as valid? How do you repsond to their explanation?
It would be Impossible for a machine to simulate a tire load on the track , riders are too different.Even if they were on identical setups. Also chassis and suspension set up plays a big role in tire temps how do you control that? The problem today is that everyone wants to place blame , unfortunate things happen , sometimes it just that. I'm sure the Dunlop People are not very happy right now and feel for Hacking.
again, the ONLY reason I'm pointing at Dunlop is because they are the "preferred tire" of the AMA teams, and since they are the leader in that org., it is their responsibility to be in the lead of development. æTo quote Matt Mladin:
We were told in a meeting with Dunlop, the day before the test started, that they essentially assured us (the riders) there wasn't going to be any trouble with the tyres of the same sort we have had in the past, with tyre deflation etc, said Mladin.
Unfortunately there was one such incident on the second day of the test and as I've said many times, the bikes and the speed of the new 1000cc motorbikes has gotten beyond what this race track is capable of and the tyres cannot handle the abuse that they are given around here.
The point that must be made and I've said before, Dunlop cannot be held totally responsible for what is happening. Any tyre manufacturer that would come here and see what goes on with tyres would be pulling their hair out with trying to develop tyres for this track. They (Dunlop) cannot be held responsible, we have to hold someone responsible at other tracks and Dunlop may be partly to blame there, but here the AMA need to look at what's going on and the performance of the motorcycle.
The bikes have increased in performance so much in the past five years that it is becoming frightening. The new Honda did essentially 310kph (190mph) on the 31 deg. banking and with all of the funny things that happen on the banking, the G forces are unbelievable.
If something is not done about it, I certainly won't be racing in the 200 under the circumstances we are at, at the moment. I would rather put a set of tyres on a 600 Supersport and race that, rather than a 200+hp Superbike as no one can guarantee our safety when it comes to tyres here. Motorcycle racing is full of inherent dangers and things that go wrong, but it has come to a point where there are no guarantees that you'll come around the next lap, even if you don't do anything wrong and I think that's a risk not worth taking.
Tyre wear is also not the issue or the reason why for the failures. Ben (Spies) had a tyre fail after about four or five laps and then (Jason) DiSalvo had one let go after about ten laps on a 1000cc Superstock bike and we've got to do 20 laps on a tyre in the 200 race.
The problem Dunlop is facing is that they just don't know why it's happening. They think they've got a handle on why it happened and then they've got another failure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising Dunlop for not working on the problem as I know that they've worked day and night on this. I can't fault them for the amount of work and time they've put in over the past three months, it's been incredible. The bottom line is that the speeds and the forces generated on the banking, I don't think can be replicated in a closed testing environment and that makes it hard. The banking does have what feels like very sharp holes, what would feel like stutter bumps on a motocross bike, but at 270kph, so is this additional load causing the tyre to fracture. That's the thing at the moment, we just don't know.
This is a big problem and it needs to be addressed now. What is going to happen in a few years time when the manufacturers start to develop 240hp bikes? Just six years ago we had 155hp and now we have just over 200. One day it has to come to a point where it seriously needs to be addressed.
We know that Daytona is the worst track on the calendar as far as safety goes, but getting it taken off the calendar wonêt happen next year, so something has to be done quickly. I think the series has outgrown Daytona. Even the 600cc Supersport bikes are doing 270kph (170mph) on the banking.
We're going to speeds with these 1000cc bikes of over 320kph after they've been in the draft and that's crazy as you are surrounded by a concrete wall. So far the recent incidents have been during practice, but what will happen if a tyre fails during the race when there's a five-bike train happening and there are five riders on the track at 270ks and a field of bikes following them. You can imagine it's not going to be good.
We met the AMA officials late on Wednesday afternoon to discuss ways of fixing it so that the race will happen next year with less than three months before the race, a lot of things will need to be sorted out.
QuoteIt would be Impossible for a machine to simulate a tire load on the track , riders are too different.Even if they were on identical setups. Also chassis and suspension set up plays a big role in tire temps how do you control that? The problem today is that everyone wants to place blame , unfortunate things happen , sometimes it just that. I'm sure the Dunlop People are not very happy right now and feel for Hacking.
Alright, but when does the time come when they (whomever it has to be) say enough is enough? Bikes are only getting faster and faster. When and who calls it as it is sadly enough? What is going to take, a burial? If that's the case, who's going to be the fall guy when it happens? One day an incident will evolve, and it could be anyone, even a street rider.
Here's the kicker though:
Press Release Issued By Mat Mladin Motorsports (December 11, 2003)
"The problem Dunlop is facing is that they just don't know why it's happening. They think they've got a handle on why it happened and then they've got another failure."
Look at the date on that press release. Do they know yet?
so what, they should give up on trying to make better tyres? that's the point of the tests. and to say that motogp tyres don't fail is just dumb. brigestone had a some pritty major ones resently. and if i'm not mistaken haking crashed in superstock. witch run slicks, not dots. failures are bad, no arguing that. but tyres, and the matieral in tyres, are made by people, and as everyone knows mistakes happen and will continue to forever. also if any of the veriables that go into making tyres, such as compound, temp, humidity, etc. are differant or not quite perfect it could and will affect the performance of a tyre. lets face it, all of us who get on the track have to know the risk involved, and if you can't accept them than you shouldn't be out there. and i for one wish i could ride to the point in witch i could cause a tyre to fail.
QuoteI agree with you Dave...
However Jim's statement:
"Do you race on Dunlops? If not then you must be the typical internet idiot that feels what you have to say must be important or is that impotent ? in your case."
... was unconstructive in this conversation and was belittling and inciteful.
Dawn
But this statement started it all and was unconstructive, belittleing and inciteful.
QuoteHow many Dunlops have to blow up before they get ruled as "non adequate" equipment in the AMA
Sorry, Dan...
Really though it is.
Certainly any Dunlop rider may feel pressure from some about these issues. Certainly Dunlop feels it internally.
The internet does have a tendancy to allow lots of input. Certainly input is allowed, but someone that is at a different level of racing in cars doesn't have input into what the Shoemakers do.
I fully understand Jim's answer.
I have people that come to my schools with bikes that are not prepared even for race day. Then, when they don't accomplish something, it's my fault.
There are many manufacturers of tires out there that support AMA road racing. Certainly, Dunlop is one of them. Racers ride at full tilt. Set ups are not optimized and tire wear will occur. Additionally, other factors based on production qualities in suspension, chassis, tires, chain, etc. and play a part. The tire is the last contact. AND the rider still has to ride within certain perameters of traction to keep the bike upright.
So, to call out Dunlops as non-adequate...
Again, I ride Michelin's. I have good friends there. Additionally, I've known Jim Allen for quite a time myself. If you knew the people at Dunlop as your friends and collegues for quite a while, the statements would be rather personal...especially when voiced by someone that doesn't race in that competition category.
How long should a tire last? How good should it be?
Well, they get better. I grew up racing on Dunlop 591's. Started with a Dunlop 591 prototype and a 391 front, if you want to know what exactly.
Over the years, tires and chassis fluctuate. Tires get better, they load the chassis differently. Then the chassis catchs up, the tire can't keep up. It's a give and take. There is still not tire that gives traction everywhere all the time.
Car tires are "relatively" simple. A car loads a tire a certain way. There are equasions that can tell you how the side wall will deflect, etc.
Motorcycle tires...well, that's art and magic. Like Jim said, there is so much happening. You can't really know exactly if it will be better. I've ridden on Michelins some time ago that were supposed to be better than the current tires. They were good. They were refered to as the "A" tire. We got the "B" tire, and we found it to be much better. Reality was that the asphalt here was different than the asphalt where the tire was developed.
As for a tire working and failing...
If it was a perfect world, for your endurance race at Grattan, you'd be able to run a soft front and rear tire that would last the whole distance. Doesn't work that way though. There IS going to be a life to a tire. I race on DOT's...I like the longevity that I get out of the Michelin's, but I can only expect the tire to do so many full out laps. After that, there IS less traction.
With a 170HP bike, will any tire give decent traction? You open the throttle too much and the thing is either wheeling or spinning. At what point can failure be expected? No one wants it to happen, but it can. To think otherwise is kind of ridiculous.
Life is full of risk. Getting up in the morning and slipping in the shower. Watched someone run through a stop sign, miss me and wipe out a mini van three hours ago rolling the thing over. Certainly, we do everything we can do try to reduce risk, but it can never be eliminated, right?
Jim Allen didn't want or expect this to happen. To say that his tires are "non-adequate"...that's belittleing and inciteful.
Here's another question as well.
How often do you see this in club-level racing? You don't. Yes, there are tire failures here and there, but many can be traced back to other problems (clearance due to gearing, flat-spot rim, etc).
When Jeff Kufalk goes out and disintegrates a D208-GPa on his cbr600rr with ~110 at the rear wheel, then, I'll consider saying Dunlops are sh1t.
Until then....
Jeff who? :o :P ;) ;D
How many tires does Dunlop sell each week and how many of those blow up? I'll bet it's way less than 1%. ::)
I hope a tire never blows up on me :(
QuoteI hope a tire never blows up on me :(
That makes all of us...
Hey Dan, you've got an I.M. :-X
QuoteHow many tires does Dunlop sell each week and how many of those blow up? I'll bet it's way less than 1%. ::)
How many Firestone SUV tires were sold versus how many blew up? A whole lot less than 1%, but enough to cause a gaint stink in the media and recalls galore.
This is all a question of design margin. The tire companies could make tires that would pretty much never fail within a race distance by adding belts and bulking up the tire, but it would weigh more and traction probably wouldn't be as good. Dunlop could make a tire that would "never" fail, but the performance would drop to the point that Pirelli, Michelin et al would be beating them on the track.
All of the tire companies have reliability engineers (or at least I hope they do) whose job it is to predict what percentage of tires will fail, and perform the reliability versus performance (versus cost) trade studies and determine what an acceptable failure rate will be. Dunlop has enough statistical data for AMA spec tires with AMA level riders and AMA bikes to start correlating real data with their predictions. Pirelli and Michelin don't have as large of a sample size.
In my line of work we have all kinds of reliability requirements, and they get allocated to the lowest level of component. Failure of these systems can often result in loss of life, just like a race bike tire. Trades need to be made between reliability, performance and cost. and no one can afford a system that will "never" fail. An example would be the space shuttle system, which has very high reliability requirements, but as we all know, failure can and do occur. Do we spend more or lower the perfromance of the system to increase the reliability, or do we accept what it is? The tire companies have to ask this question every time a race tire fails.
I'm glad it's not my job to define what an "acceptable" reliability is...
-z.
I'll read the rest of this note later, so I apologize if this has already been stated.
The tires those that run in the AMA are much different than the ones we might use in club level racing (privateer and factory). Let's call them special tires. Pit for a one of the privateer racers at the next round and you'll see for yourself. At some level tire manufacturers use real racing conditions to test their products. Factory teams and some privateers realize the risk associated with the use of these tires, but expect more than a moderate level of safety built into the tires. When tires fails, tire manufacturers have to make changes, which I believe is common practice behind closed doors. When things come out in public that's when reputations get marred.
Even though a few club racers can get special tires, but even then the level of development of even those tires might not be on the edge of critical failure. I say that to imply that it's likely to believe that no amatuer will ever suffer a tire failure under similar riding conditions.
All of my opinions are based on some direct and some indirect conversations, do some networking within the sport and you'll learn so much, instead of foolishly speculating quality on a discussion forum.
QuoteHow many Firestone SUV tires were sold versus how many blew up? A whole lot less than 1%, but enough to cause a gaint stink in the media and recalls galore.
-z.
I don't think anyone was racing these when they blew. ;)
QuoteI don't think anyone was racing these when they blew. ;)
Yeah they were. To the phone to call their attorneys ;)
:)
QuoteHow many Firestone SUV tires were sold versus how many blew up? A whole lot less than 1%, but enough to cause a gaint stink in the media and recalls galore..
Not to mention Ford recommended only 26psi in them for a smooth ride. My brother had those tires on his explorer when he got it. Kept them at 35psi and used it to go to fire calls.
Someone mentioned that there is too much blame these days, and I agree. Who in Government is to blame because we weren't protected from suicidal nuts flying planes into buildings?
Superbikes are what they are through innovation and development. We enjoy the fruits of this process in the new bikes we buy. Sitting in my garage right now is a GPZ750 with a 130 rear and a 110 front. It makes about 80 air cooled ponies, and tire reliability isn't a problem. Shall we all go back to this level of performance in the interest of safety?
The new superbikes and the pros who race them are destroying tires right now. It's happened in the past in Indy and Stock Car racing. To paraphrase Dave Rosno, speeds climb, chassis improve, tires catch up, repeat. History repeats itself. Why do Stock cars run restrictor plates, or indy cars run little wings? Because speed needs to be artificially restricted to keep tires on them. Historical fact. So maybe it's time to restrict superbikes? I'll bet the riders and factorys don't want that. Pro racers could quit and go bag groceries if they don't want to race motorcycles for a living. Not gonna happen. They understand and accept the risks that they take. In the end, we'll all have better tires because of this era of performance. The tires we have now are plenty good enough for club racers. I just don't see the point of this conversation.
Chris and Dave,i think you are right on the money.who would have guessed 4 yrs. ago that today a 16 yr old amature could buy a bike from the local dealer,put a high flow filter,a pipe and remap the ECU and would have more horsepower than than the 750 superbikes the factory riders had in '02.and go club leval racing.I'm not saying this is wrong i'm only showing how the motors and tires have evolved at different rates.I'm sure dunlop is doing everything in their power to build a better tire(the last thing they want is another failure).