First I would like to thank the racer who t boned me in turn 4 and took not only my self out but 2 other riders..AM MW GP feel free to give me an email about your thoughts on the situation...
I have a thought, and maybe others would like to elaborate on the subject..
I do understand racing, and bumping, what i so not understand is the carnage i witnessed all weekend At VIR and Summit the previous weekend. in the am class befor i myself was taken out in one of those instances.
We do have to turn guys...and I love close racing but knocking others down for a better position is not only uncalled for but dangerous. After speaking to a number of other riders about this we have come up with some solutions however first and foremost it has to come with the rider who is behind that has the responsibility of making a clean pass. Then maybe to the officials where a fine of some sort when this happens.. This is happening in a regular basis and something needs to be done. The MW classes have come to be very competitive, and with the newer bikes closer and more evenly matched amongst ourselves. What Im asking for is a bit more responsibility out there...as well as some awareness as to whats going on around them as well as where you are on the track....
We are all out there to enjoy ourselves, be competitive and hopefully go home safe...I would not want to see another rider in the hospital for some dumb move that would place me on the podium..nether should anyone else. Lets try to put an ounce of prevention out there so we can continue to do a sport that we all love..
I know Im putting myself in a position to be heckled laughed at hopefully some will agree and put somelight onto this subject..Anyone who does know me knows that complaining and bitchin is not my style.. but i felt something had to be said...Good luck to all in Georgia, see you in Barber....
Roy Cadoo
#980 AM
kazu79@aol.com
i do not know who you are or where you race,
nor have i ever raced against you( at least i dont think so),
but the one thing you are definately right about is that it is the responsibility of the rider coming from behind to make a clean pass whether he/she be expert , amateur, or even pro for that matter.
if you were taken out , yiou have every right to complain and the officials should at the very least address your complaints.
Sounds like you are talking about the "axe-murderer" class...aptly named and one I won't participate in due to the higher than normal ego to skill ratio!
OK, here's your dose of ridicule. YOU MUST BE NEW! Because buddy, this is how it's always been.
Amateur 600cc racing has always been like this. The bone-headed moves of the "I'm the next Nicky Bostrom" types makes for fabulous entertainment. The Amateur Middleweight class gives the corner workers, medics and crash truck drivers something to do, keeps the photographers and parts suppliers in business, and provides us with those much needed red flag breaks.
I've been around CCS for more than 10 years, both as a racer and a corner worker. I have seen vicious carnage in the AM MW classes to be the rule. Race directors have screamed, fines have been levied, ambulances and helecoptors have been called, but it never changes.
My opinion (we all know about opinions, right?) is that you should go race lightweight. The SV-F2-FZR560-Buell (Get the SV, best of the bunch) classic rivalry plays out every weekend, and while the racing is crazy close, there is that touch of respect that usually gets everyone home intact. You have the older and really young racers competing in lightweight. The older guys because they don't want to die in the stupidity of the 600cc meat grinder, and the youngest ones because it's all CCS will let them race. If you hone your skills there, you will find that Expert 600cc racing is a much safer place. By the time white plates go on, natural selection has weeded out the kamakazi pilots...
Good luck in your decision. Don't feel that your opinion on this subject should open you up to ridicule. Many before you and many yet to come share your sentiments. Check any "Newbe wants to know which class" thread on this or other boards, and you'll find that all the experienced guys consistantly tell beginners to avoid the 600cc class.
I agree. I race a 600 as an amateur, but mostly in non-MW classes (GTO, HWSS, ULSS, F40). The dumbest moves always come when I do a MWSS race (GTU isn't as bad, people get spread out), like last weekend at VIR when a guy stuffed me in T3 and our fairings banged. Yeah, yeah .. "its racing," but we also have day jobs and I've only seen 1 fellow competitor race in the AMA (William Meyers, amateur last year). I'm looking fwd to being an expert next year, but am thinking about getting an SV so I'm racing with non-FUSA/pros.
Another important point for all the boneheads making passes and taking people down. The fastest guys (racing in GTO with expert/Am together, so racing with the Troy Batleys/Scott Harwells) make the CLEANEST and SAFEST passes. Its called skill. And if you don't have a clean pass, you need to wait to a part of the track where you can make one. I hate waiting, but the reason I'm waiting is that I'm not good enough to pass in lots of places. As said above, most MW amateurs will never figure this out.
AMEN!! As I woke up with the ambulance people standing over me and a neck brace on, the last thing I remember was being in first place on the last turn...AAHHH Nicky Bostrom must have really wanted that checkered flag!! I too was stuffed real bad by a too aggressive "must win" type. This individuals response to me was "that's racing".
QuoteAMEN!! As I woke up with the ambulance people standing over me and a neck brace on, the last thing I remember was being in first place on the last turn...AAHHH Nicky Bostrom must have really wanted that checkered flag!! I too was stuffed real bad by a too aggressive "must win" type. This individuals response to me was "that's racing".
On the last turn of the last lap, he hits you from behind, puts you down and in the ambulance, and says "That's racing"??? Straight to the race director! And, um... If you were knocked out and in need of an ambulance, how about red flag, revert scoring to the previous lap?
Time to go talk to the local karate instructor about some single moves that will drop a guy to his knees. I knew this racer once who's rival started hitting him on track. The guy talked to his rival, but it didn't stop. He mentioned it to the race director, but it still didn't stop. One day, the racer followed his rival into the bathroom...
At least the subject opened up a discussion and maybe those who read this will think twice about an unclean pass..
Your responses are appreciated. Although Im not brand new to this sport, I just have been fortunate enough to not to experience first hand the consequences of being taken out my those who have no respect for the other rider. Perfect world would be to not have toleave the middleweight class and be able to race in a competitive environment without the misfortune of what i have brought up. As someone has stated above, we watch the fusa experts race close, agressive, but they understand the fact that when there is the line is not through another rider!!! (maybe at least most of the time?)
I do understand that this has been around for some time, and officials struggling with the situation, but i do not think leaving is the answer. I have races close and even bumped farings which is a part of racing...but to be drilled at 3 times the speed of a corner is unacceptable.. I am no expert as of yet however building to it....however I will stay with the MW class and hopefully we can somewhat improve this class by bringing this stuff up and working through it...
As for the AM MW riders...Out of 30-40 riders on a grid...there maybe 2-4 of those Boneheads we are talking about...So The MW class is not that bad, I have made some good friends along the way, and have had some close racing and good times...I maybe looking for a "perfect world" which I understand will not happen, but If we stay on top of this maybe more wil stay in this class, and ride at a more responsible level out of repsect for the fellow racer...For our own good....
Roy Cadoo
#980 AM
midatlantic/ NE region....
kazu79@aol.com
There is no easy way to do it since there is no qualifying... but the incidents would be cut down greatly if the fast folks start in the front and it works back from there...
Sort the grids better based on speed and this is not much of an issue...
Now that is an idea....would it take much for the timed practice to place the grids......????
They used to do it for the ul supersport fusa for the am then they cancelled it all together...... oh well
The timed qualifying takes aprox 20 minutes min per class to run. In order to do that you would look at half as many classes, entry fees that are double and the same amount of actual racing.
You cannot use practice times as when do you practice and do your setup then, plus you would not be setting imes apples to apples. SuperSport GSXR600 vs GSXR 1000superbike practice in the same group.
If you do a search on this subject it has been brought up before and answered by Kevin Elliott.
Heya Roy, Yes I was witness to the dumb I think I can make it..No I can;'t make it move the guy pulled going into T4. Here's you friendly fellow NYer 696x(Dave)... Hope your leg is feeling ok. That was poor judgement, I must say that being my first weekend racing at VIR (great track!!) and on a new bike 600cc ( I miss my big overweight, torquey TLR) the 600cc classes are an absolute cluster**** at the starts, HWSS, HWSB, GTO are not as crazy. I too on Sunday was bumped off the track on Sunday at T3, basically the guys front fairing hit me in the shoulder blade area as i was turned in/leaned over in T3, luckily I was able to stand it up ride into the grass and get back on the track and almost get him(#503)
at the finish. Guess he did not like me outbraking him into T1, but I did leave him room and did not run him off the track..hmm enough ranting..
Roy, Different subject, but are you going to Roebling Road July 23-25?????
20 min sessions are he norm in AMA etc... but iot does not have to be that way for CCS. Same practice sessions just use the times for gridding...
The issue I see w/ that is someone will start "trying to win practice"... I don't really see the 1000 vs the 600 as a big issue in the same practice. As Amatuers the diff can be so tremendous between riders skill levels that a guy on a 600 may be the fastest guy in practice because of the skill level... GTO frequently is won by a non-litre bike. W/ the experts they should be able handle it...
And w/ the setup issue... We run the same tracks over and over... A click of rebound here and there is what should be being addressed in morning practice, maybe looking at tire wear and adjusting pressures... if you need more than that two 10-20 min practice session in the mornings before a race are never going to be enough... Maybe the Friday track days would get more popular, that is when we need to figure out our set-ups (or work on it in the GTL/GTU/GTO)...
Hell, I walk thru the pits looking at setups and seeing what others run... it is amazing to me that you can find many in the paddock that are complaing about suspension but have never even bothered to set their sag....
ZAMZETN K3
m7y ke7y board is beerrrrrt soaked ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
QuoteThe timed qualifying ...
You cannot use practice times as when do you practice and do your setup then, plus you would not be setting imes apples to apples. SuperSport GSXR600 vs GSXR 1000superbike practice in the same group...
Aside from RA and Daytona....
How much differance would it make if the
Few Racers that have multiple bike would Qualify on a 1000 for gridding?
Anyone that is Capible of being on the front row at BFHs on a Liter bike, is more than likely to be able to put down close to the same times on a 600.
Just my OPinion
13X
hey Dave, funny thing the numbers match!! 503...no im not going to georgia,,barber is the next trip......see you then??
the thoughts on timed qualifying in practice sounds good, i like the hw and mw comparison, but the way i look at it...it is a better way to grid rather than who signs up first... set up or not it would put the field in a better position at the start.. also we are no pros right now so i do not think that it owuld be much of a disadvantage, as starting from the 2nd wave sometimes you can manage to get up front...
Also it would prevent soem that takes the school at summit and races, then spends there next race up front on the grid because they signed up sooner than some, however are 15 sec slower than thos around them......
I knowsome of these issues have been addressed before,,, and we are not expecting huge change.. but a little organization as far as gridding would go a long way. Thanks for your thoughts...
I agree with you somewhat about the gridding. But I dont think going to time qualifying would be the best idea for all classes. If you dont like where you are sitting on the grid pre-register. I you still dont get up in the front practice your hole-shot. Goto a track day, and in pit exit, do a start practice every time you go out for a session. Hell do one ever other lap. Practice makes perfect. I have seen E-BOZ come from second row and win the race off the hole-shot. If the guys are that slow up front you can get around them easy. I usually catch 4-5 spots on a hole shot. But if it is your first year racing, I would prefer to be in the back, to watch everything unfold in T-1. Work on yourself, and then you will be amazed @ how fast you work everyone else around the track. You sound like a pretty fast guy, dont know never raced against you. Other thing if you think moving to the LW classes is going to be easier, think again. The LW SS/SBK/GP/ THunderbike/GTLITE is definitly a highly competitive class. The only difference is we wont kick you or cut you off for a spot. Unless your a BUELL :-X JK guys. Although they need all the help they can get!
Have fun be safe, get an SV for your first RACE BIKE!
QuoteI agree. I race a 600 as an amateur, but mostly in non-MW classes (GTO, HWSS, ULSS, F40). The dumbest moves always come when I do a MWSS race (GTU isn't as bad, people get spread out), like last weekend at VIR when a guy stuffed me in T3 and our fairings banged. Yeah, yeah .. "its racing," but we also have day jobs and I've only seen 1 fellow competitor race in the AMA (William Meyers, amateur last year). I'm looking fwd to being an expert next year, but am thinking about getting an SV so I'm racing with non-FUSA/pros.
Another important point for all the boneheads making passes and taking people down. The fastest guys (racing in GTO with expert/Am together, so racing with the Troy Batleys/Scott Harwells) make the CLEANEST and SAFEST passes. Its called skill. And if you don't have a clean pass, you need to wait to a part of the track where you can make one. I hate waiting, but the reason I'm waiting is that I'm not good enough to pass in lots of places. As said above, most MW amateurs will never figure this out.
First off is the MG? Green painted bike? If so its was funny reading your post remembering what u did to a buddy of mine at summit on FUSA weekend and I heard your conversation when you walked past my pit area talking about the incident. So this post of yours is BS in my book!
Roy.. I hope all is well and the bike is fixable... I had two close friends taken out of races at VIR. Truefuly Some people will never change...
snip <The dumbest moves always come when I do a MWSS race (GTU isn't as bad, people get spread out), like last weekend at VIR when a guy stuffed me in T3 and our fairings banged. Yeah, yeah .. "its racing," but we also have day jobs >
Well well Mr. max... I wasn't going to touch this one, but I can't resist. First of all, I was the guy that took you on the inside of T3 at VIR during the GTU race. Scott Harwood #97.. might'o' heard of me. I'm neither embarassed or dissapointed in the move I made on you due to the following: VIR is a difficult track to make a clean pass on anyone who takes up the entire track trying to make the apex. I will not sit idly by whilst I watch you gingerly double apex through there. Here's a little advice for ya-- don't take a line deep into that turn and then decide to change it at the last minute to make what you think is a "perfect apex". When I was coming in on you into that turn I had nowhere to go because of your last minute change, so I took the turn from you, pardon the contact. I was neither trying to showboat, nor do I have delusions of grandeur about my ability, but when I'm on the track I'm out there to push myself as hard as I can. It isn't a matter of whether or not we have day jobs-- it's competitive spirit. I do have alot to learn, but racing aggressively (and cleanly) got me from 20-somethin in the second wave to sixth in three laps where I then lost my rear in the last turn going on to the front straight. Maybe I'm guilty of poor tire management?? ;D
As for the Summit incident... I appreciate your ability to laugh about running a fellow racer off the front straight going into one. >:( Once again by changing your line at the last minute! Do you have any idea how hard it is to break from 140 mph at break marker 3 in the dirt and still save your bike and life? I do. And I still almost caught you by the end of the race :P
Don't be such a hypocrite next time 'round, 'cause I will throw my two cents in and call ya on it.
Hope to see you at Barber.
If your grid position was decided on where you where at in the points it would keep the faster guys up front and the newer slower guys in the rear. Plus you would know where your grid spot was every race. ;)
QuoteIf your grid position was decided on where you where at in the points it would keep the faster guys up front and the newer slower guys in the rear. Plus you would know where your grid spot was every race. ;)
Great Idea!!!!
To bad we race with CCS and it might be the end of the year before we know where we are in the points :-X
13X
Ooohhh!!! Harsh but true.
Well, a couple responses.
401. We spoke after the race and I thought figured out that the "green" bike you were looking for re: T1 was someone else. There were a few out that day. When you left, I thought we were on the same page. I think that is still right.
97/Scott. Your entitled to your opinion, but my recollection is that it was a late apex, not a double. I wouldn't have thought anything of it, except another fellow racer (for real) came up to me and asked me if I had an incident w/ you b/c he did do -- another aggressive pass as he described it. You were pushing hard, which I presume is why you lost it in T17 20 yrd in front of me after the pass. Scott, you also have to admit that when we bumped, I backed off, and didn't contest the pass. I stand by my view of the pass.
I'll be the first guy to let someone pass. If anyone sees me doing something I can improve, I'm open for it, but I don't think this is that. I'll be the first one to admit, though, I have a lot to learn. Doesn't change the point of giving people passes when they have them, and not taking them when you can't make them clean