my 01/600gix wobbled a bit over stutterbumps and the rear shock was blown, so I sent them to traxxion for a rebuild.
Rebuilt rear, and rebuilt front completely...new cartridges even.
Put the forks and shock on, set the static sags and went to gateway.
bike was so stiff it was chattering on the smooth sections. tires were losing contact w/ pavement on bumpy sections (T1, T8, chicane).
We then used Mark Junge's settings on the compression/rebounds front & rear....no better.
We then backed the compression on the front all of the way out...it was better but still way to stiff. Also, it started locking the rear under braking because of the zero front compression.
Had gateway track record holder travis king from the defuct Paramount racing check it out...he said it was way too stiff even w/ the compressions out all the way. Local fast guy Mark Oldham said the front was way too stiff too. Another fast expert rode it and said he was chattering all over the place too.
I am into these forks for over a $grand$ at this point (original traxxion build, then complete overhaul) and am really unhappy.
Any suggestions on how to get this thing to absorb bumps? W/ the compression all the way out, do I now have to start softening up the preload's beyond the correct sag #'s???
I am lost
My frame and steering head bearings are new.
another weird thing is the rebound adjustments. nothing, nothing, then the width of a screwdriver blade and then you've gone too much
No one was able to figure out why it was handling so stiff on the track.
my buddy has an 01/600 bike built by mark junge....traxxion forks and same rear shock as mine. bike handles unreal...soaks up every bump on the track and sticks like glue.
I have the same bike w/ the same suspension and it handles like utter crap.
any suggestions???
Thanks
I would send them back to Traxxion and complain that the valving is off...or at least start by calling them. If they set it up so that it's way to stiff all the way soft, then something is wrong. It wouldn't be the first time they mess something up.
Or cut your losses early and call Thermosman and have him fix their screw up.
Bingo...send 'em back.
He wouldn't want them to be like that either. So, better to call and send 'em back ASAP.
Double Check the fluid level too, Too much or too little will cause suspension issues.
Stumpy
I think its those crappy tires you were running.
How did your shock get blown, did you have a crash or a really hard hit or something? If so maybe you have some frame issues?
May seem like an obvious question but are your springs correct (possibly too stiff)?
Your valves may require a bleed hole drilled in them and it may have been over looked by the assembler, easy to miss if in a hurry.
The compression and rebound adjusters are intended for fine tuning only, they effect total fluid flow a rather small amount. If your valving is set incorrectly in the 1st place then the small amount of fluid flow control you have with those adjusters is not going to be enough to compensate. Those adjusters are basically just a bolt with a ' V ' point on the other end which seats down into a small hole. When the adjusters point is seated all the way against the orifice it resticts any fluid from traveling thru that passage (those adjusters are ultimately a bypass system past the internal valving). With that orifice blocked the fluid must all travel thru the valving assembly, which if the valving assembly is set correctly shouldn't be too awful handling. Depending on the pitch of the thread on an individual adjuster will determine how much each turn changes the amount of fluid that can pass thru the bypass system. Typically after 1 1/2 to 2 turns out from seated closed against the orifice (depending on thread pitch) you are now able to flow more fluid than the orifice itself can flow, so any further backing out of the thread will have little to no effect.
Shim stacks in your valving assemblies are very sensitive to change and it would only take 1 shim in the stack being wrong for your application to make a significant difference in your bikes handling. I imagine this is where the problem is, they probably assembled the wrong shim stack. I would ask them what info they have for you for valving purposes (including your weight, bike, and racing aggresiveness level)? Make them tell you what info they have currently before offering any updated info for revalving purposes. :)
I have heard Traxxion has messed up other peoples stuff too, then they turn into a&%holes when you tell them they screwed up. :o Thats the word around the pits as I havent used them myself. I have heard too many horror stories, yours is just another, that I wouldnt take a chance using them. ;)
Thanks Mike.
expert (midpack+ ....maybe better if I could ever get my bake to handle half way decent :P ) rider....190 lbs.
.925 traxxion springs and valving.
Penske 22-clicker.
traxxion and penske was from 2002 season.
Handled better than stock, but front-end was always wobbly on bumby sections.
2004 ...New frame....never crashed.
Don't know why the penske wouldn't hold a nitro charge....would always leak out. Think I blew it doing stoppies on the street.
Rode sdivers(#68 ) traxxion/penske bike last month and it was phenominal. Couldn't feel ANY bumps on gateway.
Sent my penske and forks to traxxion for a refresh/rebuild, thinking my bike would handle the same. $500 rebuild on the forks...said my dampers were shot, upgraded valve stack, etc, etc...
rebuilt penske.
10mm free sag in rear, 25mm free asag front.
Felt like I was riding on struts. both ends chattering on smooth, and bouncing off pavement over bumps.
duplicated sdivers(Mark Junge's) settings...no better.
Backed front compression ALL way out, and about 12 cllicks out in rear. Was better, but still stiff.
Then went 30mm free sag in front, better for bumps but started locking/chattering the rear under braking.
I am NOT happy.
I am gonna send them back again. I am into these forks for over a grand and they have never been that great, now they are worse than when I sent them.
:-/
QuoteI have heard too many horror stories, yours is just another, that I wouldnt take a chance using them. ;)
They have to know what they are doing, sdivers/junge bike being an examle.
BUT, if my bike doesn't handle like sdiver's, after I get them back again....NEVER AGAIN! >:(
Do you happen to know what spring rate Sdiver has in his bike? That .925 spring rate seems a bit much, but I don't have my chart with me to confirm that. Engines and suspension work like an orchestra, if you only have a couple of the instruments playing the music you'll probably still be able to recognize the tune, but it won't be anything like when the whole orchestra is playing it. Though I think your problem is probably in the valving, I still wonder if that spring rate is correct for you, because if it isn't it wouldn't allow the wheel to follow the road properly due to not enough weight/force being exerted to compress the springs. That possibly could be a variable in the overall suspension issues your having.
Though I am quite familiar with the internal workings of suspension, I currently lack in the set-up department as far as setting up a bike. I have this ability, or more like curse, of being very adaptive to riding what ever the bike is throwing at me for handling, and settling for that as being how it's going to be, when ultimately I should be seeking a better set-up. In order to get the bike set-up end of things correct I am now a student of the almighty "SuperDave". I'm really looking forward to getting my latest bike dialed in with his guidance. :)
Quote Do you happen to know what spring rate Sdiver has in his bike? That .925 spring rate seems a bit much, but I don't have my chart with me to confirm that.
Should be fine. That's what we had in my GSXR.
I work with http://4and6.com and http://hyperprousa.com. The Hyperpro Springs are rising rate...meaning that as they are compressed, the rate increased. On my R6, as they get compressed, they are way more than .925.
Hey Dave,
I have heard that the Hyperpro rising rate springs can feel kind of odd while riding hard since they are not linear. What do you think? I take it that you like them. Did it take a while to get used to them?
QuoteThey have to know what they are doing, sdivers/junge bike being an examle.
BUT, if my bike doesn't handle like sdiver's, after I get them back again....NEVER AGAIN! >:(
It all depends on who actually does your work. Some guys there are real good, others only go to their class and feel like they are suspension experts with no other previous knowledge of suspension. I am sure that if Max did your forks, they would be well setup, but if Billy Bob this weeks new tech guy got a hold of them and learned how to setup forks by playing with yours...then who knows what is in there!
;)
When you said matching Mark's set-up, do you have the same tires and bike geometry as well? ???
Anyway, just call up Max and tell him the issues that you are experiencing, I am pretty sure he would be more than happy to sort them out for you.
I too am in for at least $2,000 for my suspension need from Traxxion (forks and Penske shock). Due to the fact that I had a rare bike, it's basically a trial and error thing I need to go through with Max to sort my suspension out the way we hoped. That took a long time as I don't live close to Max, and maybe decided to ride as is so I don't lose any seat time. However, Max had always been helpful and eager to sort the issues I had for me although he had basically no data on my bike (being an import, greybike if you will). We did meet out at VIR early which help a lot as he gets to feel the suspension while mounted on my bike.
Anyway, call/email Max and tell him your issues, and send the suspension back for him!
QuoteWhen you said matching Mark's set-up, do you have the same tires and bike geometry as well? ???
Yes
Eric - just call Thermosman. Trust me. He will get your sh*t right. Since DanO and I both switched over to Thermosman, I couldn't imagine using anyone else.
Hi Jim! 8)
I tried calling him several times, but he never returned my calls...so I sent my chit to traxxion.
I hear good things about mike (thermo) ....if traxxion doesn't square my stuff up to satisfactory, that is where I will go next time around 4 sure.
send your stuff back to Max, he will make it right.
As for using the same setting as someone else, that maybe half the problem.
Mark's riding style is in the 1%. The setup that works for him "will not" work for the other 99%.
It is very unlikely that any 2 setups will be exactly the same. This is why Factory riders have an A bike and a B bike. There are a million things that can be different even with the same equipment.
Good luck and feel free to email me if I can help at all.
Brian Baker
Baker Race Gear/Midwest Axxion Center
brgracing1@cs.com
QuoteAs for using the same setting as someone else, that maybe half the problem.
Mark's riding style is in the 1%. The setup that works for him "will not" work for the other 99%.
Thanks Brian.
Actually, the Junge bike handled PERFECT 8) I had no idea how a bike was supposed to handle until I rode it. It was unreal!
It asborbed every bump at Gateway, and the tires stuck like glue at max-lean.
Suspension was controlable even when sliding the tires....felt like you could do anything on that bike and get away w/ it.
Couldn't feel any of the bumps on the entrance to T8...whereas my bike scarily bounces/hops through there.
After riding sdivers Junge bike, I feel like supsension set-up is 90% of going fast. Not just mentally either.
The Junge bike could go through bumps w/out bouncing or losing traxxion, and could lean over further before the tires slid, and even when they did slide, it was much more controlable.
We had to adjust my suspension so far out of whack (30mm free sag front) just to get it to stop 'skipping' on the smotth stuff, that it was locking up and bouncing/chattering the rear under braking.
Max will (does) say that is rider error, but I was locking-up chattering (using vesrahs) w/ my bike...but was braking MUCH harder w/ sdivers Junge bike (also w/ vesrahs) w/out a hint of bounce/chatter....soi I disagree w/ that altogether.
I agree that Mark is a 1% rider, but I think a correctly setup bike is a correctly setup bike.
A bike that absorbs bumps and sticks is going to benefit any rider. I agree that fine-tuning will be required per rider, but every body that rode sdivers bike agreed that it handled great. Everyone that rode my bike said it sucked.
Same bike, same supension/brakes/tires....but such different results.
I am unhappy w/ my product.
QuoteIt is very unlikely that any 2 setups will be exactly the same. This is why Factory riders have an A bike and a B bike. There are a million things that can be different even with the same equipment.
I agree, but no one was able to get my bike to handle.
Travis King said it was way to stiff and couldn't figure it out. Oldham looked at it and said the same.
sdiver rode it and said it was stiff/chattering and we had to back the compression all of the way out to get it to even start to somewat absorb bumps. That can't be correct.
We wound up going w/ 30mmm of free sag in the fron, just so we could dial some compression back into it.
I am going to send it back to Max, and hopefully this time it will come back to me working correctly.
Thanks for your advice Brian.
I'm sorry I thought this topic was Handling Hoes. :-X I'll mind my own biz cause I have a hard time with my own suspension.
There might be too much fluid in the forks. Or I have to ask this, did you change the fluid in the forks? If so, are you sure you reassembled them correctly. It's very easy to tell if your suspension is going to move properly just by pushing on the front of the bike. If it is stiff in the pits, it will be stiff on the track.
What kind of bike is it? RSU or USD forks? If you did change the fork oil, how did you set the fork oil level - forks full compressed with the spring and spacers removed? Did you set the compression and rebound screws to full hard before reassembly?
QuoteThere might be too much fluid in the forks. Or I have to ask this, did you change the fluid in the forks? If so, are you sure you reassembled them correctly. It's very easy to tell if your suspension is going to move properly just by pushing on the front of the bike. If it is stiff in the pits, it will be stiff on the track.
What kind of bike is it? RSU or USD forks? If you did change the fork oil, how did you set the fork oil level - forks full compressed with the spring and spacers removed? Did you set the compression and rebound screws to full hard before reassembly?
01/gsxr600
Forks are at traxxion specs...have not been touched. Recieved from traxxion, installedon bike, then a day of pulling out my hair trying to get the bike to handle half way decent to no avail. Rear shock is too stiff too.
Speed,
from my experience with Max and Brian, they set me up just fine, but, they both know me(size/ riding style) the .90/.95 spring rate seems to be soft for you. That is what I run and I am 165# with all my gear. When I experience chatter, it is usually a loaded front-end due to geometry/old oil/ tire carcas issues. Start with geometry. what tires are you running. Tires will dictate your geometry to some degree. The bike may be plumetting immediately on turn in giving you the chatter. With a blown shock, the rear end may have been flattening the chassis enough to compensate for the geometric variance. Sag will only base-line you for pre-load, but the forces acting upon the bike won't reflect that of correct pre-load, if the geometry is off. So once again, now that you have fresh components to work with, start fresh and open a new log book. Also, be sure that the guys at traxxion install the correct needle in the shock. No "bull-nose", the OEM penske
is what you want.
30.
lil_thorny, you sound like Super Dave
QuoteHey Dave,
I have heard that the Hyperpro rising rate springs can feel kind of odd while riding hard since they are not linear. What do you think? I take it that you like them. Did it take a while to get used to them?
No problems. Ran the front springs with all stock internals though Topeka last year. Was goo enough for 12's a Blackhawk...almost an eleven at the last race. Janisch got into the elevens with his Hyperpro stuff.
You're making the difference in rate seem so large...it isn't.
Sean,
I strive for greatness ;D
LOL! To be great at what? I'm great at being underemployed and broke...
QuoteLOL! To be great at what? I'm great at being underemployed and broke...
Talk about broke, I'm still feeling the sting from writing checks to some quack in Wisconsin... :P ;)
Thanks for all of the replies, guys.
Forks/shock went out UPS today.
I know Max can make it handle correctly, and I am hoping he will 8)
Quote....the .90/.95 spring rate seems to be soft for you. That is what I run and I am 165# with all my gear.
Benji, I had 3 different places suggest those same spring rates for me (straight rate), and I was 235# at that time! That was for my '02 GSXR 750, they knew that I was racing as an expert, and I told them that I was planning on racing toward the front. That just goes to show how much of a MAD MAN you are on that thing! :o ;) ;D
QuoteLOL! To be great at what? I'm great at being underemployed and broke...
Exactly!
Quote Benji, I had 3 different places suggest those same spring rates for me (straight rate), and I was 235# at that time! That was for my '02 GSXR 750, they knew that I was racing as an expert, and I told them that I was planning on racing toward the front. That just goes to show how much of a MAD MAN you are on that thing! :o ;) ;D
Yeah, well Mike, where are these places, and who is doing the work? Somebody who races and wins? Or somebody who gets their data off of the moto GP game on the internet ;D
I run a little stiffer up front to compensate for my riding style....ala denning. I point and flick. Nothing pretty you know, I personally feel better like that rather than say a swooper... no dirt track/moto background I guess. Front-end drive autocrosser style. I should probably change huh? ;)
I sent my stuff to Max too. I think he sent it back too stiff . . . with the 1.0 springs. I weight 210 lbs and ended up with .90/.95 springs in the front. Did you get the fork extender kit put in too? I have a 2001 1000 and have a 500 lbs spring in the back . . . think I'm going to put in a 475. As far as geometry, I have 11mm of fork tube showing above triples in the front and 338mm of ride height in the rear from middle of the eye to middle of the eye (Penske double-clicker). The geometry numbers are exactly what Max gave me so those were right on . . . the front was just too stiff.
QuoteYeah, well Mike, where are these places, and who is doing the work? Somebody who races and wins? Or somebody who gets their data off of the moto GP game on the internet ;D
I run a little stiffer up front to compensate for my riding style....ala denning. I point and flick. Nothing pretty you know, I personally feel better like that rather than say a swooper... no dirt track/moto background I guess. Front-end drive autocrosser style. I should probably change huh? ;)
I wouldn't change a thing Benji, what ever works for you is apparently right for your riding style. YOUR THE MAN! :)
Lindemann, Race Tech, and White Bros. all gave me that range without me telling them about the others suggestions on weight.
IMHO, the forks were close, but the rear was terrible.
Traxxion Geometry cost me 1/2 a season last year.
To say MJ's geometry settings are 1% is to ignore the fact that Jacobi goes pretty well on those settings as well, and when I got back close to them (out of desperation) my lap times finally got decent. His adjustment settings are almost exactly the same as Trax recs.
Nolan hey man give me a call! It's nice to see you back on the boards...or shoot me an email
dan@kingpinracing.com
Steve, How's your arm doing? YOu coming racing this year?
sdiver,
You may have wanted to try and make some changes before 1/2 the season was gone!
Your telling me that Jacoby runs the exact same setting that Mark does? If you were told that and believed it, your crazy.
Steve you have to be smarter than that. Teams at the level of Vesrah will never share all the info. They have spent hours and hours to testing with each rider. What looks the same, and counts the same on the dials, is very misleading. You have no idea what equipment is truely inside, and even if you buy a bike directly from any factory, sem-factory, or B team, the likely hood that the rider specific internals and equipment is just left on the bike is just that, not likely.
Quotesdiver,
You may have wanted to try and make some changes before 1/2 the season was gone!
True, had I known better. :( I was just a 2nd year rider PERIOD who the year before had everything set-up by a shop and it was good. Next year, hired the best experts and bought the best bike I could to eliminate as many of the newbie variables as I could. Then, I went to 4 weekends (still new tracks to me) just blaming myself for being dog azz slow. Finally got a track day at my home track where it was the first time I could assess the situation, lap times a couple of seconds SLOWER than my AM lap times a year before. MAM slower than year before, discovered also my bike wasn't making good HP.
Went to Junge to fix the HP situation, he made the geometry changes after describing to me exactly what I had been complaining about, but blaming myself on, for 1/2 the season. Next weekend (at MAM) I'm running 3-4 seconds faster per lap, and was improving every session as my confidence from the way I ened the year before started coming back.
QuoteYour telling me that Jacoby runs the exact same setting that Mark does? If you were told that and believed it, your crazy.
Well, I must have checked myself right out of the looney bin when I went to Junge's shop. He took a tape measure to his bike, then Jacobi's, then mine. Boom, boom, boom all within a minute and with me standing right there. You've been to his shop and know they have them all right there up on their work stands. Lowered mine by 12 mm in the rear (measured at an angle to the rear swingarm, not a true 12mm). Also, they all use the same endurance bike, are you telling me they switch geometry at pit stops?
QuoteSteve you have to be smarter than that. Teams at the level of Vesrah will never share all the info. They have spent hours and hours to testing with each rider. What looks the same, and counts the same on the dials, is very misleading. You have no idea what equipment is truely inside, and even if you buy a bike directly from any factory, sem-factory, or B team, the likely hood that the rider specific internals and equipment is just left on the bike is just that, not likely.
I am smart enough to know a 3-4 second instant drop in average lap times when I see it. Do I think my "exact" bike is the exact same? No, but you rebuilt the forks yourself and told me I had all the latest Traxxion pieces in there. The Penske is top of the line as well.
None of this is meant to be a slam on anyone. For my riding style I saw instant results on my bike with the aforementioned changes. Were this a slam, I would not be
still bringing my stuff to you for rebuilds and advice (btw I did not get a chance to bring my forks in that Gateway weeknd, maybe I will at MAM).
For the record, my opinion is BRG/Traxxion does great work, and I continue to use Brian for work, advice, and to purchase Vesrah pads.. The Traxxion geometry numbers did NOT work for me (or my bike), so my point was that Suspension Tuning is an Art and Science...what works great for 1 may not work great for all.
QuoteNolan hey man give me a call! It's nice to see you back on the boards...or shoot me an email
dan@kingpinracing.com
Steve, How's your arm doing? YOu coming racing this year?
I'm thinking maybe July 4th weekend at MAM, maybe just 4 non-money races or so. Arm is doing well, riding is no problem and stability keeps getting better... I just want to keep getting it stronger so it can survive a get-off intact :o. Mentally I'm not there yet when it comes to close passes so that's why I think a race weekend will clear my head.
Now if I can just get a ride up there :)
QuoteNow if I can just get a ride up there :)
Is that a hint? ;)
Hope to see you out there Steve - it's been awhile! We'll be up there the whole weekend. Drag Nolan with you... and tell your woman to bring out some of those hot single friends of hers ;)
QuoteIs that a hint? ;)
Could be, could be. Actually there is a fair chance I'll be in KC on business the prior week and the following week, which means I'll need to haul my bike up there with me, but also means it will only be a 2 hour drive from KC :)
Don't know if Jen can make it or not, doubt it, but I'll see what I can do about getting some hotties up there :-/
Hey, I know someone who lives in K.C. ;D Stop by. I'll blow up an air mattress for you. ;)
Quoteso my point was that Suspension Tuning is an Art and Science...what works great for 1 may not work great for all.
You mean you can tune it? Seriously, I haven't touched my rear shock (which is still stock) or the forks (Traxxion) since I got them. I'm too afraid I'll really screw it up.
QuoteHey, I know someone who lives in K.C. ;D Stop by. I'll blow up an air mattress for you. ;)
Thanks, but as it happens I already have one of those :) But I might contact you about a place to store my bike during the week if in fact I do make it part of a KC trip :)
QuoteThanks, but as it happens I already have one of those :) But I might contact you about a place to store my bike during the week if in fact I do make it part of a KC trip :)
Glad to hear you're getting back out there Steve! 8)
I have some pretty good video of you from the track day at Gateway if you're interested in seeing it.
QuoteI have heard Traxxion has messed up other peoples stuff too, then they turn into a&%holes when you tell them they screwed up. :o Thats the word around the pits as I havent used them myself. I have heard too many horror stories, yours is just another, that I wouldnt take a chance using them. ;)
::) ::) ::)
Why is it the classic: "I have not used them nor do I have any direct dealings with them but I have heard that Traxxion screws things up then are A holes when asked to fix the issues" This is pure crapolla. If you have not used them how can you possibly have any credible relevance toward giving any comments or feedback on the situation.
I am sure just from the amount of work they do that just from the law of averages that they make some mistakes from time to time. In my experience with both Max and now Brian Baker they have been nothing but top notch. No problem with any follow up or with getting feedback on set up/track conditions. All it takes is a simple phone call and I promise you that Max or Baker will take every measure to correct any issues anyone may have.
You coming out to MAM, Scott?? Been a REAL long time since I've seen ya...
Yeah Scott, you going out? 8)
QuoteYou coming out to MAM, Scott?? Been a REAL long time since I've seen ya...
Man, I'd like to, but lack of funds requires me to stay home.
I will be at BFR July 17th and 18th though.
Tell me you're going to be an expert by then.... please! ;)
QuoteThanks, but as it happens I already have one of those :) But I might contact you about a place to store my bike during the week if in fact I do make it part of a KC trip :)
Lots of room for your bike. Let me know. :)
QuoteTell me you're going to be an expert by then.... please! ;)
That remains to be decided.
I should be at BHF though. Budget will be tight since we're doing 3 weekends in a row starting tomorrow (Topeka, VIR, and MAM) but it's so close to home, how can I *not* go? :)
Quoteto home, how can I *not* go? :)
Regardless, looking forward to racing with you.