Ok I've over looked the fact that CCS over extends themselves and has to shorten races to get them all in at EVERY event. I've overlooked the fact that they went so far as to cancel the last races of the day at Road America after I drove 12 freaking hours to race the track. I even overlook the fact that racers feel like we are in the way when we ask questions or have to go to the tower to get some lap times when they should be posted somewhere in the paddock anyway. But I'm having a hard time overlooking the fact that no points have been posted since the first freaking round of the Great Plains Championship.
Here we are going into round 4 and I have no idea where I stand in the championship. We racers pay alot of money to compete and deserve to at least know where we stand before we head to the next round.
Get it together guys c'mon. Without racers CCS would have a hard time holding races, can we come first for once? At $35 per race and cheaper licsensing fees CRA is sounding pretty good for next year.
Does anyone else feel my pain?
Amen Brother. Amen. If I ran my business like that I would have no customers....
Stumpy
Here's a link to MRA's site. They know how to run a race program. They post results and points after every round. They even post lap times for every rider...even us lowly amatures!
http://www.mra-racing.org/
You should see the cool schedule/programs they hand out. Top notch stuff, with pictures of the riders that supported the MRA program and made it happen.
I guess that's the difference between a non profit race club and a rake you over the coals, and could care less about the riders race club.
Sorry for venting...I'm having a bad day.
Thank's Stumpy it's nice to know I'm not alone.
MRA sounds pretty cool but it looks like all of the rounds are a pretty good hike from Chicago...
I know...If your a CO resedent it's a no brainer. You have like 4-5 tracks in one state. How cool is that? If CCS doesn't pull it together we'll be looking for a new club. :'(
Chuck, I'm not defending CCS here, but.... it's much easier to keep points current and do all that cool stuff for local clubs like CRA and MRA than for a national organization with many regions across the country.
Good Point. I do think the age of computers has made these kinds of things easier for everyone though. All we're talking about is taking data from a computer and posting it. It can be done the day after the event if someone was motivated to do it.
Well if it is that hard to enter in that much data they should hire more people. ::) Trust me it is not rocket science to enter in this stuff. If they need help my 6 year old can do it she is probably more computer smart than half of the people that work for CCS. Things will never change at CCS. WERA does not have that problem maybe someone should call over to Mongo or Evelene and ask them how they get it done so quickly.
CRA/MRA/CMRA/WERA/etc
Get any one of them in the midwest and things would be different...
How?
Well, either the infiltrating organization would start delivering bad service because they aren't so localized OR CCS would improve because of lost revenue (or just pull out all together).
Any which way, like the price of gas, we can all b1tch about it but at the end of the day we pay and play...
Isn't it frustrating that we pay so much and get so little back? The fact that you even bring up the fact that if another club came to the Mid West CCS would pull out is crazy. CCS is a profitable club and should do what it takes to keep us happy to keep it going. All we're asking for is a little effort.
Quit getting by, by doing the bare minimum. We will only put up with it for so long.
Send that message to Clear Channel.... as everyone should. If they realize just how unsatisfied people are they may do something. But remember, it won't take only a handful of people to get a reaction, it will take many hundreds or more.
I believe the last time I had gotten any info CCS is still owned by Clear Channel Entertainment. What does that mean? Well as far as I have been told and seen myself, we are a money cow. That means you just milk it until it dies. When I did my full amateur season in 00' of the 9 complete race weekends in the mid-west (at that time they were running seasons you didn't have to refinance your home to win a championship) CCS got my pre-entries correct 5 times. I started in the 16th row in one race and finished 2nd, the next day I started in roughly the same spot, and in the 3rd turn was swept up in some slower guys garbage as he crashed and the bike tumbled into me. I recievede a flight for life that day, all because CCS didn't get the entries correct again. But don't feel bad, they said they were sorry and bumped my entries to the following weekend.
I am discouraged about the slight progress they have made since I started back into this in 99' through 04'. I don't blame KE though, Clear Channel gives him about 10 people to take care of a nation of riders. Plus they require them to show at a select few races a year therefor making it harder to get the real work squared away. I say this, when we get sick of it or realize that most of us are never gonna make any money doing this, we quit.
As far as getting another orginazation in here and them squashing out CCS, Jeff your talking through a paper a-hole, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN... Ride-pay-smile-shut up-ride-pay-smile-shut up SAY IT WITH ME NOW OR, QUIT,
Chuck the more you spend the louder you voice will be.
The more I spend the louder my voice will be? What does that mean? I attend all Great plains events, and am competing for 3 championships. Do I need to race every race and go for total points championship (the bought one) to be heard? ???
I'll shut up and race I guess...for the rest of this year anyway.
If WERA had a AM liter bike class I wouldn't be here.... :( I just want registrations and points to be done in a timely manner....not too much to ask????
Oh. This subject again. ::) I really want do do more endurance racing. As a result, I have been bouncing from club to club, and the grass seems greener EVERYWHERE.
Drive 12 hours on your last nickel, only to find that they've lost your pre-entries. Borrow $20 apiece from everybody you know to enter the races a second time, start at the back and lose a championship over it. (Still better than a flight, Thorny...) Have this happen repeatedly, to the point where you pre-enter for next race at regestration and have the regestrar zerox and sign a copy for you so that you can PROVE you were pre-entered.
There's plenty of other stuff, too. Ever build a bike to a set of rules that no longer read that way, then show up for the first race to discover that the tech inspector has the one and only copy of the new rules? Sorry you spent all that money, but your bike isn't legal/competitive/class doesn't exist any more. Sure, we could have told you in November, December, January, or Febuary, but isn't this more fun? Call to get rules clarification? Anyone who personally knows me also knows how badly THAT can bite you in the ass... (But at least KE was a perfectly honest gentleman about that situation.)
This would be about my third year on the message board, and the tenth time this has come up, at least. Thorny is right. Talk is cheap if you keep spending your money. Call me every dirty name in the book, but if you keep handing me money I won't try to stop you, and neither will CCS. From what I've seen, the CCS staff is dedicated and hard working. There just aren't enough of them. That would be Clearchannel's fault.
I'm with Chuck on this one!!! I did my first CRA at MAM this weekend and if they were closer more often CCS would never see my money again!
How many weeks has it been since they updated points??? Check this out, this is how it should be done!!!!!!!!!!!
http://64.176.35.1/cgi-bin/Ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=f7db5ba9cb95e6016fccc9f08187ba84;act=ST;f=2;t=2205
QuoteCheck this out, this is how it should be done!!!!!!!!!!!
http://64.176.35.1/cgi-bin/Ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=f7db5ba9cb95e6016fccc9f08187ba84;act=ST;f=2;t=2205
Aw man, I have to register to see that. That organization sucks too! ;)
I didn't know Clear Channel dictated how many people worked for CCS. If that's the case I'll direct all my negitivity to them next time, because the manner in which CCS has been operating is un acceptable. As Stumpy said if I ran my business like this I'd be bankrupt. Is under staffing really the issue? When I go to the track I see CCS people everywhere.
I agree Chuck, CCE/CCS has terrible customer service! At Gateway, when the old track dude got up and said "Deal with it" (for back to back races) I wanted to tell him to F.O. Even though I didn't have any back to backs!
The race director at least was like "We'll work with you." That old dude need to go!
Also, someone mentioned airfence being moved. I know they had extra hay bales as I saw them when coming in for registration.
They lady tried to tell me my online registration wasn't there. They didn't have my name on the sheet, but luckily I happened to get a glimpse (as she was thumbing through them) of my SSN. I had printed out my reservation number so I was not going to take no for an answer.
I agree about the timeliness of their responses (understaffing makes that understandable), but damn there are computers available to make the registration process so much easier. SSN, key it in, check off which races you want on the screen, pay and be gone.
That could then feed the system that sets up the grids. These systems could be written for very little. If I was in CCS and CCE was not giving me much staff, I'd be budgeting 10/20K to get something written to make my life easier at the track.
the link was a post on the CRA website...it's a guy that was updating the website after each race. They already have the results, lap times, and points on the website.... $60 for a license, and $25 sprints/ $35 Trophydash (30 min race).
Dave
Quotethe link was a post on the CRA website...it's a guy that was updating the website after each race. They already have the results, lap times, and points on the website.... $60 for a license, and $25 sprints/ $35 Trophydash (30 min race).
Dave
We do that for the USGPRU series. It's my (unofficially dubbed) "Same Day Scoring System". I built/coded the pages and database. We can post results from the track, live. Just need a phone line to dial up and log into the Web site.
Instantly as times are entered for qualifying, and results are posted, points are automatically calculated for each region and for the National Championship.
Take a look.. www.usgpru.net/results.php
and www.usgpru.net/standings.php
and www.usgpru.net/riders.php
AND we made rider profiles, that are tied into the results and standings. It's a nice little integrated system.
This can be tailored for CCS, with some modification and extra coding.
These are great solutions, and a whole lot better than "pay, ride, and smile" or "money speaks louder than words". I don't want to abandon CCS by not participating I want them to fix the problem.
Scott would you be against me offering your services for a small fee? How easy is it to implicate? Who would I talk to about getting something started?
Sorry for the ranting, I'm just a new guy that is in disbelief about how difficult they make posting points sound.
QuoteI didn't know Clear Channel dictated how many people worked for CCS. ÊIf that's the case I'll direct all my negitivity to them next time, because the manner in which CCS has been operating is un acceptable. ÊAs Stumpy said if I ran my business like this I'd be bankrupt. ÊIs under staffing really the issue? ÊWhen I go to the track I see CCS people everywhere.
CCS has very few full time employees, probably 5 or less. Most of the people you see at the track are not full time employees, they are local people that run the races. Those people have regular jobs to go to on Monday, just like most racers.
I've been on this forum for more than two seasons and I can tell this topic has come up several times, as K3 has said. Many people have offered their services for free and for a minimal fee, and as far as I know, nothing has happened.
I think the person to contact on this matter is not Kevin Elliot. I think you should contact Kenneth Abbot. If you can get Ken to buy in on your idea and from more of a CCE point of view, then maybe when it gets presented to Kevin, it presents a better package to CCS.
In my opinion, FUSA is the only thing CCE really cares about from a marketing and promotional view.
QuoteI didn't know Clear Channel dictated how many people worked for CCS. When I go to the track I see CCS people everywhere.
There are about ten people in the office at CCS. This is where the entries and points get lost, and where customer service falls down. Just not enough people to service such a large operation. I think that a guy named Ken or Kevin Abbot is the king. Name aside, I met the guy at the Indy dealer show. What a piece of work he is! Anyone who wants to complain about Kevin Elliot needs to meet his boss! The people you see at the track are all volunteers. Corner workers and staff get paid something like $50 per day, and if more than the maximum number of workers that CCS will pay for show up, that $50 per day gets even smaller. $50 per day barely covers their travel, and certianly is no wage to work for. I'll bet the majority of racers never stop to think that the tech inspector, the corner worker, the race director, the registrar... all those people are race fans who do this for a hobby. They get a bit of cash, a free room occasionally, a meal or two. Nothing that even begins to cover their time or expense to come work for us. Think about that next time you want to go off on someone at the track. I worked as a corner worker for 15 years before I went racing, and I was spending my own time, money and vacation to do it. You might meet Kevin Elliot, Linda, Tiffany or Eric at the track. They are from the Texas office. Everyone else you deal with is a local enthusiast volunteer.
Sounds like CCE runs this like a non profit organization...the problem is that it isn't. Us Racers Generate a $hit ton of cash. Where does it all go? If it doesn't go to the employees that are supposed to help make these events go smoothly who's pocket is it in?
CCE of course. The last time this came up Tiffany was saying that she was working as hard as she and a small staff could manage. If I remember correctly Her and 2 other girl's were processing 3000 license application's. You do the math on that coin.
ECU Mike you stole my middle name. I have not let a lowly SV beat me in over a year and half. ;D Did we meet at Barber last year? There was some guy on a Aprilia 250 out braking me into 1 in practice.
Here is the list of FUSA/CCS staff.
Kevin Elliott - Director of Competition
Kenneth Abbott - Marketing & Promotions
Tiffiney Kelcher - Event Manager (Event Info & Licensing)
Linda Hipps - Event Manager (General Info, Refunds, Licensing, & Entries)
Nicole Lewinn - Data Management (Licensing & Entries)
Nicole deals with AX during their season so she is not 100% FUSA/CCS staff.
I am a "local enthusiast" without a region. My biz/job is Blockworks (http://www.blockworks.net)
Why are there 5 people managing a national racing organization? Sounds like CCE needs to give up a little more coin and get those people some help.
With such a small staff, why isn't CCS begging to work smarter than harder. If the staff at CCS spent more time request smarter tools from CCE, they could better manage the work load. First of all I would computerize everything (pre-entry and post-entry). This single shift would reduce the paper work and the subsequent re-data entry. It's like trying to make a bike go faster by reducing the friction. After everything is computerized (with obvious reliable back systems), then the system can be optimized so everything works together. Seems like all the commercial IBM has screams loudly at being a perfect fix for our complex system (i.e., someone call IBM and see if they will donate there services). One big company helping another big company may make things happen.
What really interesting is that CCE also runs the Supercross series with the AMA. The AMA has many systems already in place that literally streamline all of the types of fan and racer info/data that reports live info and facts about the series. Why can't CCS harness this from CCE/AMA. Is it because the the Edmundson lawsuit - probably?
Anyway, I propose this more than a year ago, but who's in for starting a new, well attended, FRBR - For the Racer By the Racer - series in the upper Midwest? There's a lot of talk about a new region being formed next year. Will it be a part of CCS, or just affiliated with CCS?
Quote ECU Mike you stole my middle name. I have not let a lowly SV beat me in over a year and half. ;D Did we meet at Barber last year? There was some guy on a Aprilia 250 out braking me into 1 in practice.
hehe, may have been me. #826, AM last year. I only rode practice and 2 or so races on Sat, then blew a piston, which put me out for the rest of the weekend.
Have to put my .02 in..lol.. all i have to say is another org. get s the points and everything done pretty fast and if i am not mistaken they only have 4 full time people :o
Five people? That's twice as bad as the ten I had suspected. No wonder nothing ever gets done. The work load has to be insane.
As for the money, I know that track rental fees can be killer, and often the smaller and less well attended events will lose money. The better attended events need to make up for that. We bitch about getting run from Barber to MAM for double points, but from the CCS point of view, those venues need to make the gate, and some tracks cost more than others to rent. Road America is crazy expensive to rent. I know that last year our second race there got canceled because Road America was selling spectator tickets, keeping the money, and expecting CCS to provide security to manage the spectators!
A local series is at an advantage in some sense, because they have a relationship with their few tracks, their small pool of racers and staff, ect. It's like family. CCS has a more national feel. You can race around the country with CCS, and go to a national runoff. But CCS needs to make the rent at little events and big ones. I think CCE needs to help CCS with some personell of computer upgrades or something, but I don't think that there is as much cash flying into the pockets of CCE as we sometimes think.
Did everyone miss my point? If you have fewer people, your are in greater need of a simplified system, not less. CCS's priority should be to start testing new systems in parallel with what they are doing. They have to do the work, and there is plenty of time at the track to take care of this are the tracks if need be. We have been pregnant dogging for years, because the internet and computer advances have seemed to pass by CCS, without them making any obvious changes.
We complain about points updates - solved with a streamlined process, plenty of examples in existence
We complain about registration issue - solved again with a streamlined process - be more hands off with the proper backup. I bet a lot of companies would donate their services to get the system going.
We caomplain, but are we like the board of directors, or investors in CCS. If that's the case, why does if always feel like we are the last to here about policy and process?
QuoteAt Gateway, when the old track dude got up and said "Deal with it" (for back to back races) I wanted to tell him to F.O. Even though I didn't have any back to backs!
The back to backs aren't a big deal. Stump ran 2 sets of them. You just have to be prepared with a hotpit and a rider in excellent condition :-*.
So, yes, I do agree with "deal with it".
As far as points goes, I, too, figure them myself. No, I shouldn't have to, but then we know where he stands when we want to know--less stressful.
Heather :)
Stumpy's wife is on to something...I guess I'll have to grab the results after every race then bother CCS employees to make copies of the results, and add the points myself. Seems a little dumb but it's less headache then waiting on someone from ccs to post points, or fax copies of points.
I waited almost two weeks for Linda to fax me point standings...she sent me results, and half of them at that. :-/
Wow Chuck, I didn't know you were that green. I think there's reasonable, then there's extraordinary.
If someone can provide you with the better package, something that makes you feel like you're getting real value for your money, then that's when customers will praise what you're providing them. Business as usual is boring and quickly gets dropped, and only the true diehards will stick around, but even they eventually want to see improvements made.
In my 3+ years with CCS, I think they have been on the cusp of being a spectacular organization, but for some reason, things just never pan out.
Are they understaffed? Yes. Take on more volunteers that can add value to the core of the business.
Can they do better? Of course. No one is ever perfect and cannot stand some type of improvement.
Who's going to get it done? Who knows. A little empowerment from CCE/CCS to it's members may be the best thing for its near term and long term revitalization and longevity.
Green? or realized after I started this thread and read everyones comments that this has been brought up before multiple times and nothing will ever be done? Maybe both.
I stopped racing this year due to exactly the same CCS frustrations you have. Not enough value for each $ and/or time invested. In the medical field there is a lot of effort placed on value and improving service to the customer...but CCS has missed this. We are the hores and CCS is the pimp...so pay up beeach! ;D
My voice was finally heard! I contacted Ken Abbott about the points no being updated since the first round. Unfortunatly I don't think anything was done other than him putting a thumb on Linda, which isn't entirely fair if CCS is as understaffed as you guys say it is. But at least Ken now knows there is a problem, I even sent a link to this thread so he could see how hot of a toipic it is and how many times it's been brought up. I'm probably a marked man throughout CCS but I'll take one for the team if we can get some results out of it.
QuoteThe back to backs aren't a big deal. Stump ran 2 sets of them. You just have to be prepared with a hotpit and a rider in excellent condition :-*.
So, yes, I do agree with "deal with it".
As far as points goes, I, too, figure them myself. No, I shouldn't have to, but then we know where he stands when we want to know--less stressful.
Heather :)
That's fine, and I do agree with the fact that you'll have to deal with it. However, IMO no one was really complaining about it at the time. They were simply asking how they were going to accomodate them. Then the old man got up and IMO made an ass of himself.
Yeah! I have point standings on my fax!
I just got a head count of full time CCS Employees that handle data...It's 3 not 10, not 5....3
It's perfectly clear, that Clear channell, clearly needs more people helping CCS! Are we clear? :-X
Wow!
Is anyone volunteering at the administration level?
No, but Linda told me she is new at her position, and with Tiffany being out her workload doubled. She said she does feel confident that once she is settled she can get this done on a timely basis.
QuoteThat's fine, and I do agree with the fact that you'll have to deal with it. However, IMO no one was really complaining about it at the time. They were simply asking how they were going to accomodate them. Then the old man got up and IMO made an ass of himself.
Gotcha...I agree they need to say up front at the rider's meeting what, if anything will be done to accomodate the back to backs, without assuming we are complaining when asking. If there's no time in between, say so and we'll be ready!
We are on the same page ;).
Heather
CRA/CMA runs @ Brainerd and some Iowa tracks, right?
CRA runs at Brainerd and Mid-America only. The only Mid-America round for 2004 was this last weekend. There are 4 rounds left at BIR for the year.
You can find out more at http://www.cra-mn.com
QuoteCRA runs at Brainerd and Mid-America only. The only Mid-America round for 2004 was this last weekend. There are 4 rounds left at BIR for the year.
You can find out more at http://www.cra-mn.com
actually there are only 3 more races for the year, all at Brainerd. then it's time to get ready for the ice.
Tisk..tisk...
you all should just quit now and go street riding.
STFU!
Race and be happy. Go to Homestead and win a national.
You bich about championships that are paid for, you whine about points not being updated, you piss and moan about CCS all day long on this forum. You want change? So change. get real fast and beat
somebody. Get paid by earning it. If you aren't interested in all that, not being the best, just doing this to say you do, then be a track day rider.
Have fun. Be nice. Thank the cornerworkers.
QuoteGotcha...I agree they need to say up front at the rider's meeting what, if anything will be done to accomodate the back to backs, without assuming we are complaining when asking. If there's no time in between, say so and we'll be ready!
We are on the same page ;).
Heather
Cool. BTW, nice race setup you two have! I was pitted a couple pits down along the fence on Sat, then directly across from you on the other side on Sunday.
Is that a 21' or > 21'? I had never seen a camper like that until that weekend. I can't believe how much that thing costs new! :o
QuoteIs that a 21' or > 21'? I had never seen a camper like that until that weekend. I can't believe how much that thing costs new!
It's at least 21'. I think it may be 22. I don't know--I just sleep in it! It really is perfect for what we need.
As far as cost--you wouldn't believe the deal we got on it. Stop by sometime and I'll tell you the story.
Heather