I just figured out what I would need to become expert next year. I have been at 2 events and have 293 points. The rulebook states that you need 750 to be bumped so I need to average 77 points over the next 6 local (blackhawk and gingerman) events. With 10-15 people in my classes all I need to do is finish 3 races a weekend and I would be golden.
It seems the only way to not be bumped after your first year is to not race. I could be dead last at every event, lapped 3 times in the 8 lap sprints, and still be bumped if I enter more than 2 per weekend.
Its too bad we couldn't do something else for this such as a licensing board or a peer review of status instead of strictly points. I have seen some amateurs at the track who come in win 2 races and leave so that they don't get enough points to be bumped at the end of the year. (and stated so to me) If we used racer input then the amateurs who are really not amateurs would be bumped by their peers and those who run a lot but still need time wouldn't be stuffed into expert when they really aren't prepared.
As a note: I am not complaining about my situation, I plan on being expert next year and will happily get my butt kicked in there. I just thought it odd that there is such a disparity in skill between the top amateurs and the back to mid pack experts that the system doesn't seem to address.
As always this is an opinion. feel free to agree, disagree, or ignore it.
You can always apply to stay an amateur for one more year....
Dawn ;)
QuoteYou can always apply to stay an amateur for one more year....
Nah. You only get better by being challanged. 8)
I had forgotton about that. That does address the people who arent comfortable yet, but what about the sandbaggers?
I guess I view amatuer status as a place to learn alongside those with like skills. When someone who has been skirting the points line for years comes in it defeats that purpose in my mind.
I ran 5 weekends, crashed out of 2 weekends, got scored for races i never started in, got 3 podiums, 1 win and 7 plaques total out of 23 races, had a 500 PI.
And was forced to go expert. and was denied my appeal.
Dont assume you can appeal. If you run a lap time in the top 5, you wont win your appeal. Even if you only do it once !
Oh yea, it it easy to become expert.
Last year it was 500 points they bumpeb it to 750 this year.
I went expert last year and was getting caught and passed in combination races by a couple of amateur guys who I battled the year before.
I also know of a couple people who only raced a few races - and won - but quit before they got too many points.
Maybe we should have a "Competition Class" 600+cc race (name it what you want) that allows slow experts like me race against the fast amateurs. Or maybe there should be a "Turtle Class" 600+cc race that allows only those amateurs that can't get in the top ten. No money paid, just to get different experience. :-/
Maybe determining if you go expert should rely on your Performance Index, instead of your total points....
I don't know how you'd do it here because of all the classes, but in MX they have Beginner,C,B,A and age groups. You can race in Beginner 4 times or until you win, then they move you to C. If you're racing C and you point out before halfway of the season they move you to B, after halfway and you get bumped for next season. Personally I'd like to see something like the beginner class here, you wouldn't have to break it down into all the different classes, but I think it would be safer for everyone to have a place for first timers to get there feet wet. The other thing I was thinking was that maybe the move to expert should be based on laptimes instead of points since they're using transponders anyway...
How about the MW over all champ last year, he was an expert the year before. He wrote a letter, whined how he wasn't ready and the previous four years he had tough times. He also stated the key words to guarantee instant down grade, He promised to be at every event and run ALL races he could w/his 600 and 750. Once again proving, if you can't win championships, they are definitely purchasable (if that's a word)
Sorry KE these are the facts that SK told us last year
The point system is completely bogus. It needs to be based on points, performance index and number of races scored. Otherwise, someone can get 750 points by mid season without really excelling. I totally agree that you can buy a championship.
I have suggested this elsewhere, and I will repeat it yet again, it's actually quite easy.
With the transmitters we now use we have records of racers performance at each track they attend (noting weather may be a factor at a poor weather event, but that would be known also). What you do is take the average times of the fastest expert in a particular class during an event, let's say MWSS is the class and the average lap time of the fastest expert in that class was 1:30.00. Now do like the AMA does and determine a percentage that would be considered an advancement point, I will use 10% slower for this example. So if they determined that if you were running 110% of the lead experts pace or better that you would be considered for advancement in the next season. Since 1:30 = 90 seconds, and 10% of that is 9 seconds, then if your average lap times in that class were 1:39 seconds or less you would be advanced in the next season. :)
Mike. Would you want to allow experts outside of the 110% to go back to amateur?
something along those lines would work for determining if someone was good enough to bump up to expert....but it doesn't solve the problem where you can basically buy a championship. I consider the point system a different issue from determining who should be expert. I like your idea for making amateurs experts but I like my idea for determining the overall points champion and ranking.
I'd make the criteria for moving down a lot more loose....say 115% consistently AND the desire to move down. Some guys just are at a level they are comfortable at while some guys are consistently pushing the envelope.
QuoteMike. Would you want to allow experts outside of the 110% to go back to amateur?
I don't think that's what the true intentions of the amateur class is all about. Amateur is a place to begin, learn the basics, and get your lap times lower. Being an expert doesn't exactly mean you have to be blazingly fast, but instead that you have the experience to warrent being an expert. I have seen blazingly fast amateurs that were reckless as all hell on the track, but hopefully after a season or two as an amateur that would settle into a more controlled fast. Then they go expert and have alot of fun racing with people that they can trust going really fast with. So no, I don't think I would automatically use that as a backward move to amateur from expert, unless the person was truely way out of his league and not confident at all and wanted to be moved back.
QuoteI ran 5 weekends, crashed out of 2 weekends, got scored for races i never started in, got 3 podiums, 1 win and 7 plaques total out of 23 races, had a 500 PI.
And was forced to go expert. and was denied my appeal.
Dont assume you can appeal. If you run a lap time in the top 5, you wont win your appeal. Even if you only do it once !
if you WIN a AM race, and all the top 5 did not crash out, why would you want to stay AM or think you should?
QuoteMike. Would you want to allow experts outside of the 110% to go back to amateur?
;D ;D
I'm assuming that's total points for all your classes???
If so I will be bumped up before the end of the season...I was planning on going for points championship in my 3 am classes and hitting all the SE races. If I continue getting good finishes I will get bumped before the end of the season and am point champ will be impossible and mostly likely given to a slower rider.
I don't mind going expert but I think I should be able to finish my first racing season as AM regardless of wins, perfindex, laptimes, etc. I think the 750 bump should be forced for second year AMs....unless it's obivous that AM should stay AM.
Donald, I think what they're saying is AFTER the season is over. So next season we will be bumped to expert. I sure hope that's what they're saying. I'd be pissed if I work all season to get a championship only to be bumped at the end of the season to start over again. :(
QuoteI just figured out what I would need to become expert next year. I have been at 2 events and have 293 points. The rulebook states that you need 750 to be bumped
Yep its 750pts in a 12 month period. Remember the RULE BOOK states clearly "750 in a 12 month period". Says nothing about "selective classes" until you get to the track championship part of the rule book. But they only use selective points to upgrade am to ex.
So my thunderbike and supertwins points dont count for status upgrade because they are not in the selective classes?
The comment about 110% lap times is pretty interesting to me. Wherever I go, I tend to run right at 110% of the winning expert pace. The fast experts leave me, and the fast amateurs catch me. With 8 regional championships and a top 5 at the Daytona ROC, there is no way I could call myself an amateur. But at the same time, I don't know if I would currently be winning if they DID bump me down to amateur. Some of us are just in a weird sort of limbo. I love racing too much to quit, but I hate getting beat, too. We talked this subject to death over the winter, (The legendary Mongo/K3 debate) and decided that there was no answer that would please everybody.
The lap time rule wouldn't work in all cases. I've seen alot of fast lap times coupled with some pretty hazardous riding. (fast noobies) :-/
CCS staff and the race directors can see who should be experts. ;)
To begin, Amatures should not have champions. It seems hoaky. Amatures are supposed to be slower, so a fast slow guy champion? WTF is that? OK I'll buy it if it's a 1st year amature, but not a veteran and it shouldn't be called champion. Rookie of the year would seem a better fit.
2nd, racing alot shouldn't move you up. Wood alot should. The same guy winning all season is boring and frustrating for real amatures. Darren D won about everything his rookie year and he earned it, I'm not taking anything away from him, but as an expert he's winning alot now. He was ready and blew 1/2 the season spanking people that could never come close to giving him a challenge. Racing is a shortlived carreer as it is, if someone is obviously ready, let them, at their option,move up, SO.
Amature should be amature, NO money. It serves as an incentive to stay amature. Pay twice as far back in expert. A fast amature would still make money in expert and get a chance to compete with somebody.
The way it is, it may be a balancing act to keep the grids similar size, I don't know, larger minds than mine work on it full time.
You tards!
it is 750 points per class. The exceptions are always
guys who prove expert competency or truly don't belong with the experts ie., those unlike Kevin (sandbagger) ;D
waawaawaawaawaa.
quit yer belly aching and start racing you freaken
lollygaggers. What a bunch of wussies. I thought
racers were all crazy and psycho and SHIDT!
You keep whining, you will get bumped for sure, right off the track. Backmarkers, all of you. I am
ashamed to even know you...oh but wait, who the @#$% are you anyway? Tisk.
Bring it.
And another thing,
Madxx,
quit worrying and start learning. You don't want to be an expert yet. Not until you learn how to not crash.
Trust me, I was an expert(at crashing) last year.
Ahhh, and look at me now....now I am an expert at trying to follow the leader. Don't be in such a hurry.
Bask in the glory of your amatuer season. It won't
last. For the rest of you, you suck.
I am the walrus.
QuoteTo begin, Amatures should not have champions. It seems hoaky. Amatures are supposed to be slower, so a fast slow guy champion? WTF is that? OK I'll buy it if it's a 1st year amature, but not a veteran and it shouldn't be called champion. Rookie of the year would seem a better fit.
2nd, racing alot shouldn't move you up. Wood alot should. The same guy winning all season is boring and frustrating for real amatures. Darren D won about everything his rookie year and he earned it, I'm not taking anything away from him, but as an expert he's winning alot now. He was ready and blew 1/2 the season spanking people that could never come close to giving him a challenge. Racing is a shortlived carreer as it is, if someone is obviously ready, let them, at their option,move up, SO.
Amature should be amature, NO money. It serves as an incentive to stay amature. Pay twice as far back in expert. A fast amature would still make money in expert and get a chance to compete with somebody.
The way it is, it may be a balancing act to keep the grids similar size, I don't know, larger minds than mine work on it full time.
I agree with this exception: Money for AM's is an
incentive to get into the sport. I think that CCS is
pretty good at weeding out the sandbaggers. Well,
almost pretty good ;)
Quotequit yer belly aching and start racing you freaken lollygaggers. What a bunch of wussies. I thought racers were all crazy and psycho and SHIDT! You keep whining, you will get bumped for sure, right off the track. Backmarkers, all of you. I am ashamed to even know you...oh but wait, who the @#$% are you anyway?
Am I missing something here? The only crazy and psycho racers I've seen are in sprint cars on oval tracks or on motocross bikes.
QuoteYou tards!
it is 750 points per class. ...
...
Madxx,
quit worrying and start learning. You don't want to be an expert yet. Not until you learn how to not crash.
Trust me, I was an expert(at crashing) last year.
Ahhh, and look at me now....now I am an expert at trying to follow the leader. Don't be in such a hurry.
Bask in the glory of your amatuer season. It won't
last. For the rest of you, you suck.
750 per class? where the heck does it say that ??? You'd have to get 12 1st place finishes for that.
I dont worry. I question. If I worried I would be learning knitting, not roadracing. ;D
I know I need to learn. I am not that good now but I plan on being significantly better (faster, more consistant and controlled) by the end of the year and heck, a guy's gotta have goals. I could care less if I beat amateurs. I want to beat experts. It may take a few years but I'll do it. 8)
Quote750 per class? where the heck does it say that ??? You'd have to get 12 1st place finishes for that.
I dont worry. I question. If I worried I would be learning knitting, not roadracing. ;D
I know I need to learn. I am not that good now but I plan on being significantly better (faster, more consistant and controlled) by the end of the year and heck, a guy's gotta have goals. I could care less if I beat amateurs. I want to beat experts. It may take a few years but I'll do it. 8)
not a few years, a few weekends. To be faster is to think faster. To think faster is to ride smoother. Now
we've come full circle haven't we? Chad, crashing happens, and you know like the rest of us that it sucks. But did you sit yourself down and calmly think about what YOU did wrong? Everytime I crash,
there is something that I did that I could have done different. The trick is surviving and learning. For me
the lower lap times were there early, but the consistency is what took me a while to learn. You will
see some fast lap times from AM's now and then, but
they fluctuate greatly upwards if not over a second
more or less than the last lap. Super Dave teaches
the rythm of the sport. That was hard for me to learn. For example, HP will have an edge at tracks like RAmerica/Brainard...but the tricky technical tracks like BHF/Barber/Grattan/Gingerman, are riders
tracks where a rythm is necessary to being smooth and running faster. Work on that , and everything else(set-up) will come. Also, the best advice that I can give you is this:
Pit next to the fastest guy out there! Watch and learn. Ask Ask Ask...don't be shy.
Lil thorny.
An amateur champion is definitely like being the tallest midget. However, I did 2 weekends last year (both double points) and ended up with 590 points. I petitioned to stay a novice only to wait until my lap times were such that I could ride mid-pack with the experts. I'm not there yet, but should be there by the end of this season, when I'll look fwd to putting on white plates. As long as you're doing this for fun, I don't think its that complicated to figure out where you can learn the most. Once you start running consistently at the front of the novices, its time to move up.
I like the 110-115% of record/lap times idea. If you're much more than 10% slower than the fastest guys, I think its a little dangerous. The CCS rules are pretty good, although they definitely contain enough room for people that want to abuse the system to get away with it, albeit only for a little while.
QuoteYou tards!
it is 750 points per class.
As much as I don't want you to start goin' off on my lame excuse for a racer self, your wrong on the points Benji. The 750 points for expert bump is combined points from all your classes that you ran during a 12 month period. That's the problem with the current system, you can run a ton of races during the year, get dead last points in every race, and end up well beyond the 750 points (total combined points). You could have gotten lapped 4 times in a sprint race at Road America and you would still get the same points as the last place guy that actually stays on the lead lap.
Quote You could have gotten lapped 4 times in a sprint race at Road America
Now THAT would be slow. ;D
it has changed then Mike. Per Tiffany and Kevin, last year, it was 500 points per any given class. I would have been an expert after my first weekend...and was protested to do so, but to no avail, I stayed a true 1st year amatuer. Without the double points in effect, I still earned 550 points that weekend.
But like always, I could be wrong.
QuoteNow THAT would be slow. ;D
Not to mention IMPOSSIBLE since we only ran 3 lap sprints on Sunday... :P ;D
QuoteNot to mention IMPOSSIBLE since we only ran 3 lap sprints on Sunday... :P ;D
Bet I could had done that. ;D ;D ;D
the rule book is not clear on the 750 point bump...I saw no mention of the 12month period or 750 points per class. It just says 750 points!
Quotethe rule book is not clear on the 750 point bump...I saw no mention of the 12month period or 750 points per class. It just says 750 points!
Rule book, page 11. Section 2.2.4, sub cat A No 4. "Any Amatuer Rider who scores 750 points within a 12 month period".
QuoteTo begin, Amatures should not have champions. It seems hoaky. Amatures are supposed to be slower, so a fast slow guy champion? WTF is that? OK I'll buy it if it's a 1st year amature, but not a veteran and it shouldn't be called champion. Rookie of the year would seem a better fit.
Amature should be amature, NO money. It serves as an incentive to stay amature. Pay twice as far back in expert. A fast amature would still make money in expert and get a chance to compete with somebody.
I understand your point, however weren't you a Yellow Plater at some point? Once you see that you could make a small portion of money to help cover some of the costs, you actually realize that racing isn't as deep of a money sucking pit.(I still can't see the bottom of the pit) I'm brand new to racing and have actually taken home some wood and gotten a little money back as an Amatuer. It makes good business sense for CCS to reward riders and make them strive to go to the next level, it only hurts if you finish a weekend with an empty bank account and a broken bike.
Remember there is always someone faster than you no matter who you are....So I could argue that Clear Channel shouldn't pay the regional racers and hold that money for the National riders...FUSA. I could argue that being a regional champ means nothing.
But I don't feel that way and I feel that rewarding everyone from AM-FUSA is a good way to keep racers in the mix and take a SMALL hit out of the pocketbook.
QuoteOnce you see that you could make a small portion of money to help cover some of the costs, you actually realize that racing isn't as deep of a money sucking pit.(I still can't see the bottom of the pit).
Being that your new, you probably haven't seen this very subject of amateur payouts argued into oblivion in the past. The main arguement is that some people became YPSB's (yellow plated sand baggers) because of alot of money that use to be available to the amateurs. These guys would intentionally always end up just short of the points needed to go expert, yet they would show up at selected events and win races or at least place in money paying positions. That type of rider is not what amateur status is intended for, it's for learning and getting up to speed. Many of us argued that amateur payouts should not be near what the expert payouts are, so as to encourage people to become an expert, and not want to stay amateur and collect easier payouts of equal amounts.
QuoteHow about the MW over all champ last year, he was an expert the year before. He wrote a letter, whined how he wasn't ready and the previous four years he had tough times. He also stated the key words to guarantee instant down grade, He promised to be at every event and run ALL races he could w/his 600 and 750. Once again proving, if you can't win championships, they are definitely purchasable (if that's a word)
Thorny think about it, Expert, first year rider,rank amatuer or all around slowguy- if you enter allthe races you can on a 600 and 750, you are almost guaranteed a plate or championship. Would this guy have dominated on just one bike running a few calsses? Most likely not. We, in the past had a guy win the #1 plate, he would enter almost every race (10 out of 13) run two laps to get scored and pull in. When he stayed out he got back of the pack results yet he still won a expert #1 against some of the fastest riders in the Southwest at the time. Now this dude yo uspeak of may have been a safety hazard as a amatuer, and even if he said he 'would enter every race blah blah' , should CCS say' It might look bad if we let him in Amatuer now, let's endanger the Experts and open ourselves to a lawsuit'. Think about it- it is not a perfect world but even you could win the amatuer championship if you entered every race.
Also, GSXR Mike has some good points that I agree with. Yes you can buy a plate in CCS, WERA or anywhere else. I have been in this business for 20 years and Kevin Elliot much longer than that and ther is no real answer. I have taken to looking at it this way- THe number 1 pate means jack to me. Yo can win the number one on a bone stock SV650 ( or even a EX500 if you are pretty good). The true marker of a fast and competent rider is the Speedscreen Unlimited Gp class (for experts of course). I have thought that this class should be the class that gets the top ten plates. In the past though, it would have been tough to do this, but we have transponders now so tell me what you all think of this--Make Speeedscreen Unl GP top ten have a black number plate with white numbers. Experts could still have their top ten wiht a white background. Sorry yellow platers, no top ten numbers- we do not want to encourage people to stay amatuer if they really should be expert. I also think maybe a Formula based on-finishing position, class entered, # of participants, maybe percent of lap record on weekend (?) could be made to simplify things. It might just make them worse, I can't balance my check book so I have no clue how this formula could work. Any computer programmers or math people here? Lastly- anyone can petition to be bumped up or down. If you would like to be held back, make it like a slow guy racer resume and send it in. Outline how you only finished top five if the rest of the field crashed in turn one, how your lap times consistentley average mre than 110% of the experts times, how you only raced double points, include letter of recommendation form the riding school instructor and race director of your region (Kevin is going to ask them anyway) and let loose some facts. If you want the heads at CCS to work to get you bumped down (or kept down) yo need to do some work yourself. If you can present a flawless, complete and bulletproof case of why you should not be and expert- it will most likely happen. If you just dropa email saying "Hey can you let me be and amatuer again cuz I am real slow and alot fo the expert guys say so? Thanks" you will not win your case (I have seen emails like this!!)
So to sum it up-- Yes there are sandbaggers and racers who are not where they should be in respect to their riding experience (not speed). Yes, you can be bumped to expert too soon and can petition to stay amatuer. Yes, championships can be bought (hell I could win one if I had the cash!). Yes we need to utilize the computers and transponders and other tech we have available to make things better- send in your well tought out suggestions, not just cry baby bitching and moaning. Yes, racing is not always fair, just or accomodating- just because you spent X amount of dollars does not mean you will get the perfect weekend experience. Yes, these are my opinions and not CCS- but we all can help each other if we are smart about it. See you at the races.
QuoteMike. Would you want to allow experts outside of the 110% to go back to amateur?
Back in the 1970's (geezus I'm old) I Moto raced in Japan. They would drop you back if you had a bad performance index. :P
I'm in favor of a 3rd class. Somewhere for the weekend warrior / non-pro. I just don't believe 2 classes is enough to cover the range from lapper beginner to Valentino Rossi.
Minus a bad accident, I would have had the #3 plate and 4 EX championships last year. Yes, they would have been "bought" and I was nowhere near fastest. But, the only thing I did was show up at each race weeked in the schedule and enter most classes where I could be competitive and paid $$. I think it is wrong to rip on people "buying" plates or championships whose only wrong was they showed up and ran their races to the best of their ability and commitment level.
Quoteit has changed then Mike. Per Tiffany and Kevin, last year, it was 500 points per any given class. I would have been an expert after my first weekend...and was protested to do so, but to no avail, I stayed a true 1st year amatuer. Without the double points in effect, I still earned 550 points that weekend.
But like always, I could be wrong.
it has not changed. It has always been 500 points total in the selective combine total points (As the overall points posted on the CCS website)
trust me, I know ;)
let me fuel the fire and re-animate this dead horse!!!
nah... I don't think anyone running the show is interested in fixing something they don't think its broken.
anyone can petition to stay AM. They will approve it unless there is a reason not to. (instead of they will disapprove it unless there is a reason to approve it)
anyway, I can always stop racing one year and come back next June as a AM again right?
championships?
I went to 3 weekends this year, have a performance index of 300 something, best finish of 10th in class, and leading a class. ya that is such an accomplishment! After I got hurt, I started to realize how empty this championships are (because the way they structure it).
Now we race because we like racing. No pressure on any championship or points. If we want something to pursue, it sure isn't another plaque at the end of the year.
a few of my friends are having better time at trackdays.
People seem to be forgetting that the whole purpose of the Amateur class is to LEARN to be a competent racer. That's it.
Expert doesn't mean fast, it doesn't mean professional, it just means you've done enough races over a period of time to show that you are COMPETENT on the track.
If you feel that you want to LEARN something MORE after your first season, petition to stay amateur. It's that simple.
As they say in Martial Arts: AFTER you get the black belt, the real education begins.
'Nuff said.
That's what I was told by my Grandmaster as well when I was promoted to 1st Dan. It is very true, it's nice to hear that again. I need to get back to the studio again I miss Martial Arts terribly.
This thread should be re-titled "it's easy to get white plates". Becoming an "expert" in the true meaning of the word is a very difficult and frustrating process.
Paying out points only to the top 20 would help the "bought" championship propblem, but wouldn't totaly fix it because of the low turnout in some classes. It would help, though.