Who can tell me the what the difference is between the TZ250s that snack on SVs in the LWGP race, and the 250 MotoGP bikes that are racing this season? Just curious (was reading about the 250 race in France).
Matt Hall is the Best TZ250 pilot I know in CCS. His Dad Jim is a TZ Guru.
About 30 lbs and 30 hp.
Other than being 2 cylinder 2 strokes and 250cc, not much else in common. The differences are huge.
An TZ or RS (Honda) cost about $18,000 to $20,000. An Aprilia that is much closer to a factory bike, is about $80,000 (or were when they were available - not sure if they still are, the customer bikes came at various levels).
Besides the obvious differences, I think it has more to do with the quality of riders. Remember that Jason Disalvo's RS250 was basically the same stuff the privateer WGP guys were riding back when he raced AMA 250GP and the European Championship. If you look at guys like Sekiguchi and Matsudo, they are riding basically a kitted TZ250 with WGP suspension components. Not too far off of what I ride. The Aprilia RSW's are a different story since the factory has a bit more envolvement in their 250 program than say Yamaha or Honda these days. I think the last of full factory envolvement by the Japanese was back when Kato, Nakano, and Olivier were riding in 250GP and if you saw the bikes they rode compared to what the Honda and Yamaha boys are riding now, the difference is like night and day. The entire chassis was different than the customer versions of it. Pre 2000 TZ250 cases were based off the street going TZR250 whereas teh post 2000 TZ's are one off sandcast versions based on what they used to WGP. Take a look at Matsudo's TZ250. There's no carbon once piece subframe/tail section like the old YZR250s and the frame is identical to the one on say my bike. I recall reading that Chuck Sorenson's Aprilia wasn't all that much slower then Melandri's Aprilia at Valencia. The difference was that the WGP guys rode the living piss out of those bikes.
The kitted Yamahas and Hondas are not very close to the factory bikes. They are a step in the right direction.
Disalvo supposedly had some HRC stuff, but HRC takes it back at the end of the year. I recall a Disalvo engine being for sale for something like $20,000.
I asked Ed Toomey once how close the customer bikes were to the factory bikes, he said the customer bikes were at least a decade behind. Stuff that was used on John Kocinski's Yamahas have never made it onto TZs.
Check out this website. It will put into perspective how similar the WGP bikes are to the customer verseion of it. http://www.yamaha-kurz.de/ Matsudo's TZ even has the stock rearset/foot pegs on it. Gone are the days when the Jap manufacturers turned out "works" 250GP racers.
QuoteThe kitted Yamahas and Hondas are not very close to the factory bikes. They are a step in the right direction.
Disalvo supposedly had some HRC stuff, but HRC takes it back at the end of the year. I recall a Disalvo engine being for sale for something like $20,000.
I asked Ed Toomey once how close the customer bikes were to the factory bikes, he said the customer bikes were at least a decade behind. Stuff that was used on John Kocinski's Yamahas have never made it onto TZs.
Brian.. that may have been true 5 years ago, but the Japs are not putting in a full factory effort in 250 GP anymore. Look at the frame and swingarm that Matsudo and Sekiguchi are running. Exactly the same as mine besides adjustable triples but completely different than say Nakano's from 2000. Oh almos forgot, John Kocinski rode a YZR250 not a TZ ;) Tetsuya Harada rode a TZM which was no where near a customer TZ.
I have this video on cutting edge bikes. It's dated for pre-1995 machines, but they give some perspective on bike costs (I add a few more things I've learned over the years):
Aprilia
- non-WGP customer ~ $80k - $120k, new you keep everything, 220 lbs, 90 rwhp
- WGP customer base ~ $500k, new, lot's of kit stuff, expect to finish top 8-10 - rental/lease, aluminum swingarm
- WGP customer mid ~ $1mil, new/maybe year old, sub factory, expect to finish top 4-8 - rental/lease. carbon swingarms
- WGP factory ~ $2mil, new, all the best, expect top 3 finish - rental/lease,carbon swingarms, 180 lbs, 117 rwhp
Suspension would be a big thing, just like Superbike.
There are things that you just can't get or buy. Internals that allow low, mid, and high speed dampening, etc., etc. If you could buy a works fork, it would probably set one back $60k and up...if you could get it.
I'll agree that 250's aren't like the used to be. There was that talk a few years ago about changing the class to utilizing 600cc production motors in GP chassis...so, you could have a Harris frame with a GSXR600 motor...or a Moriwoki chassis with an R6 motor, etc....
Now there is talk about reducing the size in MotoGP.
Quote- WGP factory ~ $2mil, new, all the best, expect top 3 finish - rental/lease,carbon swingarms, 180 lbs, 117 rwhp
That would be 209lbs which is the FIM 250GP minimum weight. ;)
QuoteI have this video on cutting edge bikes. It's dated for pre-1995 machines, but they give some perspective on bike costs (I add a few more things I've learned over the years):
Aprilia
- non-WGP customer ~ $80k - $120k, new you keep everything, 220 lbs, 90 rwhp
- WGP customer base ~ $500k, new, lot's of kit stuff, expect to finish top 8-10 - rental/lease, aluminum swingarm
- WGP customer mid ~ $1mil, new/maybe year old, sub factory, expect to finish top 4-8 - rental/lease. carbon swingarms
- WGP factory ~ $2mil, new, all the best, expect top 3 finish - rental/lease,carbon swingarms, 180 lbs, 117 rwhp
Wow :o That's a pretty cool comparison. And so where do those TZ's fit in that? weight/power? Weren't they purpose-built GP/race-only bikes?
QuoteLook at the frame and swingarm that Matsudo and Sekiguchi are running. Exactly the same as mine besides adjustable triples but completely different than say Nakano's from 2000. æ
But how different are the engines? The frames may be the same, but suspension and engine are not close to what you have. That is the major difference between your bike and Oliver's bike (besides the nut twisting the throttle:)). He admits that his would not be competitive in a GP.
Yamaha was still running YZRs in 2002
http://www.europark.com/machines/ny-rmlst.htm
I was comparing to the bikes that are winning rather than comparing customer TZs to the TZs being raced in GPs today. I read it as a more generic comparision of TZs that he races against versus the bikes he sees racing on TV.
QuoteWow æ:o æThat's a pretty cool comparison. æAnd so where do those TZ's fit in that? æweight/power? æWeren't they purpose-built GP/race-only bikes?
The TZs you race against are customer bikes. None of the bikes I have seen at our races have many kit parts. Mark Stiles bike is essentially stock (he has a set of modified cylinders).
A stock TZ weighs in at about 220 to 230 lbs and may make 80 to 85 hp. The bikes cost about $18,000.
A full engine kit for a TZ used to cost about $20,000+. It would boost power to about 95 hp. The kits included carbs, reed cages, intake manifolds, cylinders, heads, ignition, pipes, airboxes, radiator. For an additional $20,000 or so you could get the 6 additional sets of transmission gears.
Rich Oliver's bike made a little under 100 hp and weighed in at about 200lbs according to Rich. Having raced against him, his bike was a rocket, it accelerated much better than mine, even though my trap speeds were about 1 mph slower at Road America.
An SV is much easier to ride near its limit than a TZ. A TZ (a 1991 ridden by Michael Hunter) used to share the track record at Blackhawk when the record was about a 1:11.8 (2 repaves ago).
QuoteBut how different are the engines? The frames may be the same, but suspension and engine are not close to what you have.
Yamaha was still running YZRs in 2002
http://www.europark.com/machines/ny-rmlst.htm
I was comparing to the bikes that are winning rather than comparing customer TZs to the TZs being raced in GPs today.
That is exactly my point. The WGP 250's are not the exotic one off works machines like the past. It's nothing more than a thoroughly massaged customer bike. I'll show you a Japanese Magazine called Cycle Sounds where they compare a stock 03 TZ250 with Matsudo's TZ250 and you'll be surprised to know that the cases and the entire clutch assembly are the same as stock except whatever the hell they do to the cases.
What about the Aprilias and the Hondas (the ones running up front)?
QuoteWhat about the Aprilias and the Hondas (the ones running up front)?
Those are a different story. ;D Tom did say TZ pilots didn't he? ;)
I modified one of my earlier posts, when I originally read it, I read it as a generic comparison of the TZs that Tom races against, to the bikes he sees racing on TV. I thought that he meant the bikes that were winning, not comparing to the TZs that were running GPs.
Any of your articles give an estimate of cost of the TZs? I would guess, what, about $80,000 to $100,000 to duplicate if the parts are even for sale. I wouldn't mind a chance to ride one.
Ricecake?!? Not sure I even want to know ;)
QuoteI modified one of my earlier posts, when I originally read it, I read it as a generic comparison of the TZs that Tom races against, to the bikes he sees racing on TV. I thought that he meant the bikes that were winning, not comparing to the TZs that were running GPs.
Any of your articles give an estimate of cost of the TZs? I would guess, what, about $80,000 to $100,000 to duplicate if the parts are even for sale. I wouldn't mind a chance to ride one.
Ricecake?!? Not sure I even want to know ;)
you don't like ricecake? it's good for you :)
The article didn't mention anything about the price but you're figures are probably right. The suspension components gotta be HUGE dollars.
QuoteI read it as a generic comparison of the TZs that Tom races against, to the bikes he sees racing on TV. I thought that he meant the bikes that were winning, not comparing to the TZs that were running GPs.
I think that's what I meant :-/ :) I don't recall any Aprilias or Hondas getting in front of me during the LWGP races, but those dang TZs under a good pilot are in a different league - they just fly on those things. I'm sure rider has a lot to do with it, or maybe it's tuning - dunno for sure - because not all TZs get up front, but the ones that do are impossible for me to catch (on a stock 02 SV, anyway).
Here are some track lap records from Phillip Island (Australia - 4.45 km/~2.7 miles). Notice the difference between the international and national lap records on 250s:
500cc GP (actually, I think this is MotoGP) International Valentino Rossi (Ita) Honda 1:32.233 20/10/02
250cc GP International Valentino Rossi (Ita) Aprilia 1:33.556 03/10/99
125cc GP International Daniel Pedrosa (SPA) Honda 1:37.983 20/10/02
World Superbike International Troy Corser (AUS) Ducati 1:33.019 18/04/99
Supersport (unmodified 600s) International Katsuaki Fujiwara (JAP) Suzuki 1:36.642 30/03/03
Sidecar International Steve Webster/Davis James (UK) Suzuki 1:38.726 18/04/99
FIM Superbike National Steve Martin (NSW) Ducati 1:36.149 08/06/97
Prod SBK National Shawn Giles (NSW) Suzuki 1:35.248 18/10/03
Supersport National Josh Brookes (NSW) Honda 1:37.111 18/10/03
250 PROD National Ben Attard (QLD) Aprilia 1:44.925 10/09/00
250 GP National Shaun Geronimi (NSW) Yamaha 1:37.448 02/05/99
125 GP National Peter Galvin (NSW) Honda 1:41.632 17/05/03
FYI, "250 Prod" refers to a production class for street-going 250 two-strokes, which are sold overseas but are not in the US. These bikes come stock with inverted forks, twin disk fronts, and big swingarms - very race-oriented right out of the box, but mods are very limited - like a supersport class.
Tom the TZ's you race against are probably in the 240 pound range and are making around 70 HP. The skill level to ride a TZ must be higher because the powerband window is very small, so I would say you are being outridden. ;D
If there is any TZ out there that is only making 70 hp, then the tuner sucks!!
Hey RiceFlake, how much power does your 2003 TZ make? I know it starts with a "9"...
:D
QuoteIf there is any TZ out there that is only making 70 hp, then the tuner sucks!!
Hey RiceFlake, how much power does your 2003 TZ make? I know it starts with a "9"...
:D
I don't know but my bike is freaking fast even with my 240 pound ass on it. :)
Quote Tom the TZ's you race against are probably in the 240 pound range and are making around 70 HP. The skill level to ride a TZ must be higher because the powerband window is very small, so I would say you are being outridden. ;D
;D ;D ;D You gonna take that Tom?
Quote;D ;D ;D You gonna take that Tom?
What? Huh? Who? It wasn't me... :D
Hey - given that I'm at 68 hp and 385 lbs (not me - my SV), if you can't beat me on one o'those rice rockets, you ain't tryin'. :P
Sorry about hijacking this thread, but I have a question... TZ's look small to me, but when you look at the dimensions Yamaha publishes they are about the same size as my R6... Can you ride a TZ if you're a non-jockey sized 6' ?
Thx,
Dave
QuoteSorry about hijacking this thread, but I have a question... TZ's look small to me, but when you look at the dimensions Yamaha publishes they are about the same size as my R6... Can you ride a TZ if you're a non-jockey sized 6' ?
Thx,
Dave
Dave,
I'm 6'2 and I'm fine on my TZ. You just gotta get used to it that's all.
QuoteIf there is any TZ out there that is only making 70 hp, then the tuner sucks!!
Hey RiceFlake, how much power does your 2003 TZ make? I know it starts with a "9"...
:D
Mine was making about 60HP at Road America but still managed to pass a few people. :o
Kwak since you are racing a '03 are you saying that I beat a World GP quality TZ at RA? Kwak's bike for sure doesn't make anywhere near 90HP.
Quote Mine was making about 60HP at Road America but still managed to pass a few people. :o
Kwak since you are racing a '03 are you saying that I beat a World GP quality TZ at RA? Kwak's bike for sure doesn't make anywhere near 90HP.
Read my post Bounds. No you didn't beat a WGP quality TZ, you beat my bone stock 03 running on 1.5 cylinders. ;) Why the hell you calling me by my last name anyway? ???
I rode a TZ last year, and an R6 now. I find the R6 very easy to ride, not unlike the TZ, except for stiffness. For both you have to really stay on the pipe to ride the bike fast.
Hey Dave, I am 6' 3" and seem to fit OK. Of course I was thinking of Clown Car Racing as a Team name.
Don't worry Rev. I am turning the screws tight on the TZ for Blackhawk... 7.4cc's..1.9mm timing...340MJ's..MR8...
Lee didn't pre-enter but I don't want any excuses out of either of you. :P
QuoteI rode a TZ last year, and an R6 now. I find the R6 very easy to ride, not unlike the TZ, except for stiffness. For both you have to really stay on the pipe to ride the bike fast.
Sean are you saying that you found it easy to ride the TZ fast? It is easy to ride a TZ but difficult to ride fast. I assume you meant the TZ was stiffer. I rode a SV at Road America and it felt like a couch. Not only was the seat soft but the suspension and chassis seemed to move around alot. What were your fastest lap time difference's between the TZ and R6 at Blackhawk?
I can honestly say that I never rode the TZ at my best pace. I am now learning that the suspension was close, but never really setup for me. Therefore, I am currently faster on the R6, and I do find it stiffer than some other R6's.
Paul,
I never said the TZ was easy to ride, I said you had to stay on the pipe to go fast. I found that to really get the revs out of the R6 you have to run really short gearing, which in turn means you are going to be running the bike in the higher rev range like on the TZ. However, on the R6 once you get the revs up, it's not a struggle to keep the revs up. Traffic or mistakes don't have the same effect on your pace.
I have a 95 TZ 125...i love it...but then again, im barely 5'2..and weigh in around 115...the bike weighs 160, and kicks out about 41 hp...the best thing about the TZ 2 stroke is that you become a better rider no matter what...its all about corner speed and being smooth on the throttle...if you mess up one turn, you know it for the next 3 or 4 turns....nothing like passing a 750 on the outside of a turn ;D
If you want more info about the TZ...go to www.tz250racing.com plenty of info on there!