fuel for the fire !
Water, Watter Wetter
Why, because it's all you need to do for normal operation, and it's SAFER than coolant of any other kind.
QuoteWater, Watter Wetter
Why, because it's all you need to do for normal operation, and it's SAFER than coolant of any other kind.
Agreed ;)
+1 to the guys above. :) In all my track day experience I was told WATER w/Water wetter ONLY. I just kept going that route, didn't realize there was any other choice.
Dry track with DOT's or slicks a wonderful feeling and good traction.
Dry track with DOT's or slicks - - Oh Ooooo - - water in the corner!!!!! :o
Whether its Water Wetter or PG, you're going down. If you say your not, your full of it. Plain water or Water Wetter reduce your traction by 50%. Since you all are running on the edge of traction during a race, your going down if you hit it.
Water reduces the static friction by 45%
Water reduces the dynamic friction by 50%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the static friction by 45%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the dynamic friction by 50%
Water w/PG reduces the static friction by 55%
Water w/PG reduces the dynamic friction by 75%
Convince me that that the additional 25% traction that you gain (after you've lost 50% of your traction already) by running straight water or Water Wetter will keep your hide off the ground. Your contact patch on your DOT's are about the size of a business card and when your accelerating off the corner, sometimes it's less than that. Once again, you're on a dry track and you hit a wet area, unless you see it or going in a straight line, your going down.
We run PG and we will continue to.
Dawn
I also ran PG. Sure was nice that weekend at BHF in April when it got down to 23 degrees at night, and I had others coming to me in the morning looking for a way to get the bike thawed, and then asking to borrow some of my PG.
Water+ Water wetter. CCS and AMA legal. I guess I'd rather risk a cracked block than another racer's livelihood. Really have not heard a good arguement to run PG other than convenience.
PG Here too...Sorry guys even with that I worry about my block freezing, I think that stuff is only good to -34 below zero. Heck it was that last night here :D I also agree just water is slick by itself. Learned that from this weekend. We really did wake up to snow this morning :-/ Can't wait til' BHF.
Stumpy
QuoteDry track with DOT's or slicks a wonderful feeling and good traction.
Dry track with DOT's or slicks - - Oh Ooooo - - water in the corner!!!!! :o
Whether its Water Wetter or PG, you're going down. If you say your not, your full of it. Plain water or Water Wetter reduce your traction by 50%. Since you all are running on the edge of traction during a race, your going down if you hit it.
Water reduces the static friction by 45%
Water reduces the dynamic friction by 50%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the static friction by 45%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the dynamic friction by 50%
Water w/PG reduces the static friction by 55%
Water w/PG reduces the dynamic friction by 75%
Convince me that that the additional 25% traction that you gain (after you've lost 50% of your traction already) by running straight water or Water Wetter will keep your hide off the ground. Your contact patch on your DOT's are about the size of a business card and when your accelerating off the corner, sometimes it's less than that. Once again, you're on a dry track and you hit a wet area, unless you see it or going in a straight line, your going down.
We run PG and we will continue to.
Dawn
This is some of the most selfish, lazy and self centered bulls.h.i.t. I have ever read.
I can't believe you won't be bothered to drain your bike in the off chance it might help a fellow racer or make a cornerworkers job a little easier.
I had hoped racers were better than this.
I see some questionable practices at the track having to do with bike prep. but usually it is because of ignorance. You know better and still continue to do the wrong thing. Amazing.
Just because the rulebook states you can do something, dosen't make it a good idea.
tom
QuoteThis is some of the most selfish, lazy and self centered bulls.h.i.t. I have ever read.
I can't believe you won't be bothered to drain your bike in the off chance it might help a fellow racer or make a cornerworkers job a little easier.
I had hoped racers were better than this.
I see some questionable practices at the track having to do with bike prep. but usually it is because of ignorance. You know better and still continue to do the wrong thing. Amazing.
Just because the rulebook states you can do something, dosen't make it a good idea.
tom
Hey Tom:
What a first post! Welcome to the board. Anyone on here knows that I am not self centered (although I like to BS sometimes).
PG cleans up with water... So what's the big deal?
I have a good question and provided figures. You called me ignorant? Convince me that I'm wrong.
We're not lazy, far from it. We meticulous with maintenance. If not, how could we have gotten 2 years of racing and seven championships without even cracking the cases on the motor? Not by being lazy thats for sure!
Dawn
You go girl!! ;D
Let's see how post #2 is....
ding ding ding.
stumpy
Screw it. Ban liquid cooled bikes and make everyone ride air cooled.:D:D:D
QuoteHey Tom:
What a first post! Welcome to the board. Anyone on here knows that I am not self centered (although I like to BS sometimes).
PG cleans up with water... So what's the big deal?
I have a good question and provided figures. You called me ignorant? Convince me that I'm wrong.
We're not lazy, far from it. We meticulous with maintenance. If not, how could we have gotten 2 years of racing and seven championships without even cracking the cases on the motor? Not by being lazy thats for sure!
Dawn
Hi Dawn. Thanks for the welcome.
I'd love to see were you got those numbers from, and who did the research.
No matter really, since your own numbers tell me that PG is worse when spilled than Water / Water Wetter.
Wouldn't you agree that anything we can do (no matter how small) to reduce the risk of a crash and minimize the clean-up time is a good thing?
You obviously take pride in your program and equipment. That tells me that you should know better than most that it is not a hard or time consuming job to drain a bikes cooling system. I'll borrow a quote from you,"what's the big deal?"
Let's set aside the crash risk argument for now and just focus on the clean-up. I am sure that any corner worker you ask would rather deal with water on track rather than PG. Don't you think this is reason enough to go thru a little extra bike prep.?
tom
You guys are missing the point. That 25% as little as it matters in all reality, is still an ADDITIONAL RISK that is not necessary. Regardless, when you go out on the track, your at risk of getting hurt, and ANYTHING, that COULD add to a bad situation in progress, regardless of how much more is NOT necessary.
It's kinda like this, and a few think I'm nuts.
I have a handgun ( HK USP .40 cal for those interested) and I keep a trigger lock on it. I also lock it in a safe. Why? Trigger lock is enough to keep the kid from messing with it and getting hurt. I don't put it in the safe so it doesn't get stolen. I put it in the safe incase the trigger lock doesn't work out like expected.
Same shite, different pile. Eitherway, precautions will only HELP the situation, regardless of how much, and god knows that at the speeds we travel around that race track on 2 wheels, we need all the help we can get.
Another thing you can think about:
Just because you hit a spot of coolant doesn't mean you'll go down instantly. It could happen a turn or two later. Atleast water will dry quickly due to tire temp. Watter Wetter makes up a small precentage of what's in your radiator. It's mostly water.
Damn I type slow >:(
That's it, I've had it. >:( I'm no longer selling Tech stickers to anyone unless you prove you are running only water or watter wetter. :P ;D
QuoteWater+ Water wetter. CCS and AMA legal. I guess I'd rather risk a cracked block than another racer's livelihood. Really have not heard a good arguement to run PG other than convenience.
I use Evans NPG (non-aqueous Propylene Glycol) due to its superior cooling ability over water based coolants thru much more efficient heat transfer. Water based coolants have a flaw that can't be avoided, only delayed thru aditives, and ultimately is why I won't use them unless I have to.
Water will allow hot spots to form in the engine that are far hotter than what your temp. guage is registering. This is caused by the fact that water, once it reaches a point at or slightly over boiling (if using additives), will boil and create a steam layer at the surface of the hot metal. This steam layer greatly reduces the ability to transfer heat from the metal to the water, therefore creating localized hot spots in your engine. The results of this are greater temperatures near the combustion chamber and other areas of the engine which in turn can lead to less power, possible damage, and engine knock.
Evans NPG is non-aqueous (not water based) and has a boiling point of something like 370*, so it won't form steam layers like water based coolants will (during almost all race conditions). Because NPG remains in contact with the actual metal surfaces of the cooling system to much higher temp's, and isn't flowing over a layer of steam, the transfer of heat is far superior when you need it most. When I look at my temp guage and it's reading 200* I can feel confident that it's close to the actual temperatures throughout the entire engines cooling system, unlike the higher internal coolant temp's you would see in a water based system.
I researched this a bit before I went this route, and based on the basic info I just described I decided it was the best cooling option available that is legal for CCS racing. Not everyone will agree with this, but I have to admit the technical reading on Evans NPG was very interesting and informative. If you want to see for yourself go to their website at ( http://evanscooling.com/ ).
I have seen quite a few overflow canisters that were mounted in the tail section or outside of the fluid retaining section of the fairings, so if they overflowed it just went out the back or side of the bike and all over the track. I believe that the overflow for coolant lines from the resevoir should be routed into the fluid retaining lower fairing so as to reduce any coolant of any type from getting on the track.
Hey corner,
those little HK .40s are primo. Wanna sell it? You could ship it with those Dunloppers you were gonna freebie!! ;D ;D ;D ;D :o
Thanks for the Evans info Mike.
Silkolene Pro Cool, good for the track and never freezes.
Ok, I've used Water Wetter, but I find Palmolive dish washing soap to be less expensive and easier to get...it does the same thing in distilled water.
I've used Engine Ice, Evans, Sierra, etc...
Never EG...not legal.
Anyway, if we want to talk about what's legal and what one can clean up...
Synthetic oils are rather common and are used by many racers....
And they are a nightmare to clean up when compared to their petroleum counterparts.
So, should we stop using Syn oils?
I've seen more oil put down on a track than coolant.
Ding, ding! Ready for number three...
My figures were found under the tech info on Water Wetter.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
Dave and Mike:
Thanks for the additional info, I was going there next, but I couldn't have said it any better than you.
Paul has hit more oil on the track than coolant, perhaps its because he runs the Thunderbike class. :o ;D
Dawn
QuoteDry track with DOT's or slicks a wonderful feeling and good traction.
Dry track with DOT's or slicks - - Oh Ooooo - - water in the corner!!!!! :o
Whether its Water Wetter or PG, you're going down. If you say your not, your full of it. Plain water or Water Wetter reduce your traction by 50%. Since you all are running on the edge of traction during a race, your going down if you hit it.
Water reduces the static friction by 45%
Water reduces the dynamic friction by 50%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the static friction by 45%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the dynamic friction by 50%
Water w/PG reduces the static friction by 55%
Water w/PG reduces the dynamic friction by 75%
Convince me that that the additional 25% traction that you gain (after you've lost 50% of your traction already) by running straight water or Water Wetter will keep your hide off the ground. Your contact patch on your DOT's are about the size of a business card and when your accelerating off the corner, sometimes it's less than that. Once again, you're on a dry track and you hit a wet area, unless you see it or going in a straight line, your going down.
We run PG and we will continue to.
Dawn
Huh? Where do you get your numbers? I haven't seen a test yet on the friction of these things with regard to the amount of traction you lose on asphalt. WW is not a friction reducer as much as it reduces the surface tension of water allowing for less bubbles on the surfaces the water is cooling. Basically a mild soap solution. I have tested them myself on asphalt since that is where we race last I checked and there is a huge difference between ww and the other couple of products just like it and PG. Also on a dry track the ww will evaporate leaving no slippery residue and pg will not. On a wet track the ww gets diluted more than quickly enough to not be noticed, PG does not. This would be real world experience, not something made up in your head to make yourself feel better.
I have used water and Water Wetter for all 5 years of my racing career. I always hit the first race, and a couple of those years we saw temps well below freezing and more than a few inches of snow. I raced upper Midwest races from spring to fall and never had a problem with my engine or radiator freezing. I did crash a few times due to coolant and/or oil on the track from a improperly prepared bike. To me, it does not matter if PG will clean up easier than EG because if the bike a few positions in front of you dumps PG on the racing surface and you hit it, it's a pretty safe bet you're going to fall down. If it was water on the track, you could probably ride through it and stay upright.
I am willing to bet that the makers of PG coolant (Evans, Amsoil, Engine Ice, etc) lobbied the AMA heavily to allow PG coolant so they could sell more product. IMHO, it is no way near as safe as water and just because it is legal to use does not mean it is the right choice.
PG here, too until the temps are more "seasonal". At the season opener last year (Blackhawk) John and I had to scramble on Thursday evening at the end of the VisionSports day, going from store to store to find the appropriate stuff to replace the water/WW we had used to flush/fill the bike the weekend before.
QuoteSynthetic oils are rather common and are used by many racers....
And they are a nightmare to clean up when compared to their petroleum counterparts.
So, should we stop using Syn oils?
I've seen more oil put down on a track than coolant.
Ding, ding! Ready for number three...
I've seen more coolant put down overall. However since the majority of rider have enough sense to use something like water or ww it's not noticed. It evaporates. It goes away all by itself with no cleanup needed.
Synthetic oils are harder to clean up but not as impossible as everyone seems to be convinced of. I had one track tell me we were shut down for the day because they couldn't clean up a couple hundred yard of synthetic - we were racing again in 30 minutes with the only slipperiness being from the oil dry residue not the oil, the dust blew off in a ocuple of laps and we had a good track again. Plain old clay based oil dry works wonders. Based on this it isn't enough of an issue to ban it.
QuoteMy figures were found under the tech info on Water Wetter.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
Dave and Mike:
Thanks for the additional info, I was going there next, but I couldn't have said it any better than you.
Paul has hit more oil on the track than coolant, perhaps its because he runs the Thunderbike class. :o ;D
Dawn
I've looked and still can't find the testing of the products on asphalt and the loss of friction there. Could you give me a direct link?
QuoteHey Tom:
What a first post! Welcome to the board. Anyone on here knows that I am not self centered (although I like to BS sometimes).
PG cleans up with water... So what's the big deal?
I have a good question and provided figures. You called me ignorant? Convince me that I'm wrong.
We're not lazy, far from it. We meticulous with maintenance. If not, how could we have gotten 2 years of racing and seven championships without even cracking the cases on the motor? Not by being lazy thats for sure!
Dawn
PG causes peeps to crash more than water. I've proven you worng in every post on the subject but you refuse ot listen - hence I gotta go with Tom...Ignronace seems to be as good a word as any.
As for your championships etc... What's that got to do with your unsafe practices? And in the same vein as your self promotion to prove a point - you haven't run against fast people obviously. Yep, that makes as much sense as your line does - none at all.
So anyway, how about that testing of friction levels on asphalt please.
Mongo the numbers came from Redline's web site as Dawn has already posted.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
click on Water wetter tech info.
Here's the direct link for the tech info.....
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf
Mongo...
You've said you proved me wrong. Where? You say, they'll crash on PG and not on water. Where's your proof? It's hearsay.
Don't worry, we'll stay away from WERA (not in our area anyways).
Dawn
QuoteHi Dawn. Thanks for the welcome.
I'd love to see were you got those numbers from, and who did the research.
No matter really, since your own numbers tell me that PG is worse when spilled than Water / Water Wetter.
Wouldn't you agree that anything we can do (no matter how small) to reduce the risk of a crash and minimize the clean-up time is a good thing?
You obviously take pride in your program and equipment. That tells me that you should know better than most that it is not a hard or time consuming job to drain a bikes cooling system. I'll borrow a quote from you,"what's the big deal?"
Let's set aside the crash risk argument for now and just focus on the clean-up. I am sure that any corner worker you ask would rather deal with water on track rather than PG. Don't you think this is reason enough to go thru a little extra bike prep.?
tom
I am still curious as to how you would respond to this.
tom
Super Dave is right. Everything is a trade off. The trade off for using Evans is minor, and very much akin to using synthetic motor oil. Instead of spending all this effort debating two LEGAL forms of coolant, lets all head to the garage and give those bikes a once over so NOTHING leaks.
M
QuoteAgreed ;)
never a problem for me., even up north..
QuoteHere's the direct link for the tech info.....
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf
Mongo...
You've said you proved me wrong. Where? You say, they'll crash on PG and not on water. Where's your proof? It's hearsay.
Don't worry, we'll stay away from WERA (not in our area anyways).
Dawn
I've given you proof - it's not hearsay if I've seen it with mine own two beady ones. It's called being an expert witness. I canonly think of a handful of people that spend as much time as I do at motorcycle roadraces every year and none that spend more, so that pretty much gives me the experieicne to make calls like this. By the way - all those other people that have the same experience level, agree with me...
I've read all through the links you've posted, still the same info they've had for years which is really nice but we're talking about the amount of traction lost on asphalt with each poduct, not how well it works or doesn't in the coolant system nor it's lubrication properties with regard to the water pump.
You posted numbers trying to make a point about slipperiness on a track, however those numbers don't seem to refer to anything about asphalt. I've done my own experiments with all of these products and even have a sample of Liquid Performances' Ice Water to play with this weekend sitting on my desk. to see if it will be allowed or not. This will be done via putting it on asphalt and seeing what happens with regard to the loss of friction, clean up, and evaporation. I'll also spread it thinly to simulate a misting type scenario and see if there is a loss of traction. I'll put your name on the gate list so you can get in free if you'd like to ocme help out and see proof wiht your own eyes since I can't be trusted. But I'm willing to bet that still wouldn't be enough to get you out of your current mindset. Heck, I even have a gallon of Evans NPG, the purple stuff, we can do side by side tests.
I've done this with PG and water wetter and with the Purple Ice (I think that's the brand name) stuff from Royal Purple. WW and the Purple Ice cause no appreciable loss of traction compared to water. PG however is a huge difference. Wonder if that's why I changed our rules to no longer allow any glycol based products? Nah. I did it because I wanna be different from the AMA and CCS, yep that's the only reason that makes sense.
QuoteSuper Dave is right. Everything is a trade off. The trade off for using Evans is minor, and very much akin to using synthetic motor oil. Instead of spending all this effort debating two LEGAL forms of coolant, lets all head to the garage and give those bikes a once over so NOTHING leaks.
M
You call 4 bikes going down minor?
Wow. What do you think of WWII? A little skirmish overseas?
PG is not necessary to a liquid cooled motor running properly, oil is. Pretty simple equation a lot of people are for osme reason ignoring since it doesn't fit what they want to do...
;D I'm coming to see the test. ::) ;D
Engine Ice, ice baby.... run water at WeRA events...
I think to simplify things we should ban all liquids. Everyone will need to bring their bicycles to the next race and camelbacks/water bottles will not be allowed. If there is any issues with liquids on the track at that race the next one will require all riders to have all fluids drained prior to race time. NOw we can be assured of not worrying about any fluids on the track.
This is just an example of what happens if you go radically the other dricetion in this debate...
As far as "just riding thru water" goes, I believe that in almost all 7 races I was in at RA over the weekend I saw at least 1 racer go down due to a damp track surface (most of the time under the bridges).
As far as water not being a problem in colder climates, would you please come and replace the engine in my '96 GSXR 750 for me, it froze and popped the freeze plugs in weather that never got below 27*.
And I will repeat again that I don't understand why coolant lines and overflow tanks are allowed to go anywhere other than a fluid retaining lower in the bodywork? This seems like so obvious of a solution to the oil or coolant issues that it shouldn't even be a topic. If the bike was set-up correctly to catch the fluids, then the chances of fluid getting on the track would be minor and limited to very small amounts of overspray in limited cases. Am I really off base with this assumption or is large amounts of fluid still going to get on the track if overflows had been placed as described above?
QuoteÊ
Ê Ê As far as water not being a problem in colder climates, would you please come and replace the engine in my '96 GSXR 750 for me, it froze and popped the freeze plugs in weather that never got below 27*.
Then put antifreeze in it in the future, and flush it before you go out on the track. Once your done at the track, replace again with antirfeeze. Takes 10 minutes.
This is what everyone seems to be missing:
REGARDLESS of what the rulebook says HAS to be done, we as the people that are putting our lives at risk, need to make sure to correctly prepare our motorcycles. This includes, but is not limited to:
1. Routing all overflow hoses, ect. to the catch can/fluid retention correctly. This goes for anything that can leak, including hoses, resivoirs (sp?) ect.
2. To run the MINIMUM requirments regarding coolants and other fluids that have the potential to add danger, to keep the bike operational.
3. To make sure that our bikes are prepared correctly and do not cause a hazard or a POTENTIAL hazard to others.
4. To make that we do EVERYTHING possible as a responsible adult to keep ourselves and others protected for any additional dangers.
Now, regardless of what the rulebook states, everyone knows what's safe and what's not. We're not a bunch of kids that haven't done this before. Everyone knows damn well what causes additional dangers on the racetrack. All anyone is asking is to do your part to make it safe for yourself and others. So far, anything but water and watter wetter is an ADDITiONAL hazard that is not needed. Who cares how much less or more, it doesn't matter. It's still more than water and watter wetter. Find something better than water and watter wetter that doesn't increase the potential for disaster, and I'm sure both WERA and all the other orgs., will be happy to allow it. Hell, someone may come out with something in a few years and watter wetter won't be allowed anymore. But, right now, it's the safest combo.
Geez, nobody is asking anyone to ruin your bike, or cause any damage. If you choose to live in colder climates, than you have to deal with it. I do, and haven't had a problem, and it's not really that big of a deal. It takes 10 minutes to flush coolant and replace. It's not like anyone is requesting a full motor tear down. If you have to, keep regular antifreeze in the bike till the morning your race, and then when your all done, replace it back with antifreeze. Takes 10 minutes. You can recycle the antifreeze over and over again. Anything else is just an excuse. You take the 10 minutes to change tires, oil, airfilters, ect., but you won't take the 10 minutes to replace the coolant with water ???
Say there cornercamper,
are you gonna follow through on those Dunlops to replace my Avons or was that just a sham? Wasn't it you offering free Dunnys? What gives? :-/
QuoteSay there cornercamper,
are you gonna follow through on those Dunlops to replace my Avons or was that just a sham? Wasn't Êit you offering free Dunnys? What gives? Ê:-/
Yeah, it was me. Sorry, I'm still waiting to change them out. Tire machine at the local shop has some issues i guess ??? I'll make sure you get them. Didn't forget about ya. My bike's been on the stands for a while now. I'm gonna call and complain tomorrow if they don't call me. I'll send you a PM when they ship.
Yawn...
You know what I run, and why I run it. Whether you can understand it or not, that's me...
Change the rule and I'll change my coolant.
Until then.....
My God people... Next you'll be lobbying that there should be no lappers in an AMA or CCS race.
Maybe races JUST for lappers? :D
QuoteMaybe races JUST for lappers? :D
Already exsists. It's called the novice class ;D There wouldn't be any lappers if they didn't force people to bump up to expert, but we're done with that arguement. That was last week. This weeks arguement is coolant. Next week, it's why you have to wear a helmet ::) ;D :P :-X
Stay on topic ;D
You mean I could have the track all to my self??!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
BTW-Thanks corner on the Dunnys
QuoteYou mean I could have the track all to my self??!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yup, right after everyone else crashes out from the puddle of coolant at the Apex of turn 1 ;D :-X ;D ;)
Quote.... Next week, it's why you have to wear a helmet ::) ;D :P :-X
WHAT!?! You mean we HAVE to wear a helmet? Can we wear those litlte brain buckets? I mean, the harley guys do :P
Bring on the Bagger Class!!!! :o :D
QuoteCan we wear those litlte brain buckets?
As long as they don't have a spike on top, that's fine by me. The one's with a spike ontop are not allowed because if your the projectile during a highside, you could go head first into the crowd or another rider, and that spike could kill some one. But, we'll get into all this next week. This week it's coolant. ;)
Stay on topic ;D
QuoteBring on the Bagger Class!!!! :o :D
BMW K1200 LT would be my machine of choice ;D I'm somthin' like a pimp ::) ;D :P
QuoteYup, right after everyone else crashes out from the puddle of coolant at the Apex of turn 1 ;D :-X ;D ;)
Hey. Water is a coolant 8)
So is oil...
And air...
I think the air causes most of my crashes...and now Morgan Broadhead.
QuoteI think the air causes most of my crashes...and now Morgan Broadhead.
LMAO!
:o ;)
QuoteHey. ÊWater is a coolant Ê8)
Yup, and it also evaporates quickly and is very easy to clean ;) ;D