... is the title of Renee's report that she is doing for school. Part of her assignment is to get information from other sources. She figures that the best source for this information is all of you.
So, let your opinions be known. Renee will really appreciate it.
Dawn :)
Less wheels?
Well, it's very active.
In any four wheel sport, the individual in control of the vehicle is inside the vehicle. They are just a piece of balast.
In motorcycle racing, the rider can alter the combined center of gravity of the bike and rider, thus making it go faster, or slower, than another rider, etc.
Visually, isn't it stunning to see some of the things one sees at a race track? Having been a regular AMA competitor some time ago, I've seen things that are just about unbelieveable.
It's like comparing a two-dimensional picture with a three-dimensional model. Bikes are so much more exciting to watch. They lean, they wheelie, they slide. You have closer contact with the racer, you see everything both on and off track. When was the last time you went in the pits at a Nascar race?
Let me know if she needs some images.
Motorcycle road racing is better than Nascar because:
a. Putting together a Nascar team requires a few million dollars. Putting together an AMA team requires much less money.(Have not actually heard an AMA team $$ estimate.)
b. Nascar=turn left, turn left, turn left. Moto= true diversity in track courses.
c. Less environmental impact in moto racing.
This is actually a tough one for me as I don't watch ANY Nascar. Watching people eternally turn left in an oval? As exciting as watching the paint dry or the PGA ;D. I know there's a few Nascar fans here that will take exception to MHO, but GO RENEE GO. :) :) :)
While I feel strongly about the subject, good luck to her proving this to the general public. I gave up years ago.
I guess my stongest point would be you have to have skills and be in shape to roadrace a motorcycle, neither appears to be true of Nascar. While there is some talent in Nascar, it is not the determining factor.
Again, good luck to her!
A big part of the comparision is the definition of "better". Better from who's perspective? The participant's, the spectator's or the sponsors? As an international, national or local event? There's the comparision of the technology of the machines. Or, the skill levels of the racers. What type of fans do the series organisers cater to?
IMO, NASCAR is about putting sponsor's logos infront of as many knuckle dragging, beer can throwing folks who couldn't find an apex if someone nailed their foot to it. Then again, if someone could show me the apex out of the infield at Daytona I'd appreciate it. Couldn't quite get it right this past Feb.
QuoteWhile I feel strongly about the subject, good luck to her proving this to the general public. I gave up years ago.
Again, good luck to her!
Personally I think she's just trying to convert the boys in her class (she's in 6th grade). Fortunately there's another motorcycle racer in her class (dirt track) so she has some support there.
Dawn :)
QuoteMotorcycle road racing is better than Nascar because:
a. Putting together a Nascar team requires a few million dollars. Putting together an AMA team requires much less money.(Have not actually heard an AMA team $$ estimate.)
But why? 37 events or so in NASCAR vs 11 in AMA. What's the viewership for a NASCAR event on TV and in person? Much larger. That costs more $$.
A fair AMA program, even for Supersport, should cost someone about $70k. That's a, what, twelve lap race with no pit stops? For sheer on track exposure, NASCAR still has it.
Quoteb. Nascar=turn left, turn left, turn left. Moto= true diversity in track courses.
Sears Point (Infineon), and Watkins Glenn are road courses. It's usually part of the series.
Quote c. Less environmental impact in moto racing.
This is actually a tough one for me as I don't watch ANY Nascar. Watching people eternally turn left in an oval? As exciting as watching the paint dry or the PGA ;D. I know there's a few Nascar fans here that will take exception to MHO, but GO RENEE GO. :) :) :)
Well, you've got to race an oval before giving up on it. Oval dirt track racing is pretty exciting. There are only so many corners, so if you're no on, you're out of the game. Certainly tightens the field.
Yes, Nextel Cup is kind of an endurance race (back to cost...crew, tires, motors, etc.). So, teams/drivers work together to position themselves to make a run at the end. With people having a short attention span, NASCAR can be "boring" to the not so informed. The beginning can be a little exciting with some drivers trying to move up quick to get with the lead pack and stay out of trouble. Staying out of trouble is the trick...bad motors, bad suspension set up, bad tire choices. You might have the best car, but it might not be so good during the race.
So, back to bikes.
Is their a romance between the "man & machine"? Yeah, isn't that the beauty of it?
Why is road racing better than NASCAR ?
Because, regular Joe Smoes like us can go out and with anfordable budget, Road Race. I have raced on the same race tracks, with a machine that is very similar to what the Profesionals use.
To me that is a dream come true!
Let's see the average Joe buy a stock car and go race on a super speedway.
Super Dave,
Thought I would not consider myself a NASCAR fan, I have watched, studied, and understand the game. There is skill. However, the cars are designed to turn both directions and they do it 2 times per year. I do watch the raod course races and would watch all of them if they did what the car was designed to do every race. The one observation I have noticed it that you find the really good drives at the 2 raod courses. There is an entirely different group of driver up front in those races. Even Trans Am hired guns like Boris Siad (not sure of the spelling).
But back tot the question,
I think it is interesting that if you look at NASCAR, the rule limit the cars in preformance, both speed and handleing, in the name of good racing. I find it interesting that they do not look to rider safety and best performance in the racing rules. Mario Andretti was a great race car drive and did tr NASCAR. he quit because the cars handled so badly. I think that there is an angle for you daughter's report in this fact. i think that they should be building good racing and displaying what is possible in cars, instead of createing an acident waiting to happen, which is exactly what they are trying to do, because it sells seats. I think there is something in the purity that was lost in that myself.
Another point, if if you look globally, euopeans completely do not understand the draw of NASCAR. In General, europeans are very informed about racing and it is much larger there and GP racing in general is the highest form of racing in other parts of the world.
For my 2 cents, here's my take....from the spectator's perspective. There are too many reasons and perspectives on why we as riders think it's better, highest among them probably being the fact that we're doing it...DUH!
From a spectator's perspective, there are WAY more passes [possible] in motorcycle racing. In car racing, often times the track is too narrow to get 4 or 5 wide going through a turn (which I have seen MANY times). The excitement of lots of passing, rider error being more visible, and dynamic moves (sliding the rear, etc) makes watching motorcycles better than watching Nascar or even Formula 1 for that matter.
How ironic. My wife and I were just having this conversation at dinner last night! Personally, I think NASCAR has got us beat hands down. I don't like this one bit, but fans and sponsors voting with their wallets prove that it's true.
This world is dumbed down for the lowest common denominator. Everything from the speed our cars are allowed to travel on the road to the bottles that our pills come in have been engineered to protect the people with the least intelligence and talent. There is no reward for being brighter or more creative than the herd, because the herd dictates the rules. NASCAR, then, is a sport for the herd. The engines, tires and aerodynamics are carefully regulated to keep the speeds and closeness of competition right where NASCAR wants them, so there is little to no room for innovation. The point is to create a racing series with cars that mimic what consumers find on the showroom floor, so that Joe Average percieves that he too could be a competitor.
Isn't it ironic then that motorcycle racing actually IS what NASCAR purports to be? Joe Average really CAN go buy a sportbike off the showroom floor and race it. Obviously, it takes way more talent to race a bike than to race a stock car. Turn a Hayden or a Bostrom loose in a stock car for an afternoon at an oval, and I'll bet they would be within a second of pole by day's end. How would Dale Jr. fair after an afternoon on one of their bikes at a road course? Sure there are things like setup, tire and fuel conservation, drafting, race strategy, ect. in NASCAR, but we deal with those things too.
In the end, NASCAR is an artificially managed show that is created for mass consumption by the mindless herds. As a result, any reasonably talented pilot could do very well in NASCAR with the right team. This would not be as true if the cars weren't so tamed down by restrictor plates, tire size and aerodynamics, but then the show wouldn't be as fun for Joe Average to watch. And remember that Joe thinks he could drive one of them there stock cars iffin he had the chance. Do any of us, even the most talented of us motorcycle racers, just think we could hop into a F1 car and kick butt? NO, because those cars are unlimited, just like our motorcycles and quite unlike NASCAR.
NASCAR is a parade designed to display the names of it's sponsors for a few hours while the fans all get liquored up enough to cheer the five lap sprint race at the end. Sadly, this carefully orchistrated formula has the widest fan base in motorsports, while few people give a rat's ass about motorcycle racing. I think this is because Joe Average won't ride a sport bike, but does drive a car. So unfortunately, Rene's point is unprovable. NASCAR is better, because it appeals to the average majority that makes up the herd. As a result, it rakes in big spectator money and pays better than motorcycle racing. Motorcycle racing is accessable, affordable, much more difficult to do, and free of rules that are designed to spice up the show and increase the closeness of the field, but these very advantages are bike racing's downfall. Joe Average WANTS the NASCAR genetically engineered show, and writes bike racers off as suicidal looneys. Joe wouldn't go 200mph on a bike for a million dollars, but he can sure picture himself strapped into a roll cage at that speed.
NASCAR wins because it appeals to the masses. The masses represent the biggest pile of money, and money is what drives professional sports. Few spectators have the courage to invision themselves as motorcycle racers, so the fan base and money that goes with it is not there. This is why NASCAR is huge, while motorcycle racing is small.
Nextel Cup has prototype tube chassis cars that use restricted componentry from engines to steering boxes to brakes to suspension. All in an effort to:
1) Eliminate special factory involvment
2) Maintain close racing
Not all spectators are drinkin' fans either...just like motorcycle racing fans are not so called "bikers".
As for passing, let's talk about the Daytona 200.
It's a boring endurance race. Was there any closeness other than the start?
There are a group of very tallented riders in AMA Superbike that could run up front and potentially win, IF the playing field were more level.
As it is. It certainly isn't.
What do we have...six guys with full factory superbikes...and the rest with Superstock bikes?
To have a better race, make 'em all have Superstock bikes, restrict the tire choices to certain compounds that are available to all competitors, restrict suspension components to certain part numbers that would be available to all competitors, how about a spec fuel, weight limits on bike and rider rather than just the bike...
MotoGP is to cars as F1.
AMA Superbike isn't even related to anything NASCAR. You'll have to go to SCCA to find a comparison for production based racing. And we don't see that on TV now do we?
EX, contact my wife, she races in CCS and is employed by NASCAR!!! e-mail her at nicole@draganeeracing.com
QuoteAs for passing, let's talk about the Daytona 200.
It's a boring endurance race. Was there any closeness other than the start?
That's why you'll see "possible" in my comments above. To be honest, AMA is kinda lame in that you rarely see the kinds of battles that exist in World Supersport for example (in my mind, the closest racing around...and funnest to watch). I personally think (I know this is a tangent so I'll be quick) that Superbike racing should be left for 1 or 2 series worldwide. That way ALL the manufacturers will be able to afford it and really throw their money around. Local stuff (e.g. AMA) should focus on SuperSport because in the end that is what we as consumers can buy. It also makes for closer racing. There's a lot of details on my theory that are better saved for another day.
I like to call NASCAR racing TOILET BOWL RACING ;D
IMO- Nascar is like the current version of gladiators. People just want to go watch their hero beat the other guy. Other racing - like F1 and cycle road-racing - requires skills that the general public does not comprehend. Watching Rossi back into a corner at 150 has no affect on them. They don't understand brake-markers, apexes, turn entry, weight shifting, and the speeds these people are doing - because there is not a wall 10 feet from them to reference.
How long does it take for a nascar driver to 'learn the track?' 5 minutes? They don't have to do anything to go into a corner, except lift off the gas. They just ride the line they chose. They don't even shift on some tracks, do they?
I watched them race at Sears Point and they were pathetic. Some teams bring in other drivers, because they suck so bad.
This isn't even going into the other dimensions that motorcycles have over cars. The only thing a car driver does to affect his car is step on a pedal and turn the wheel. Imagine everything we do in a turn to feel and adjust our bodies to make the bike do what we want.........multiple dimensions added.
Just compare it to how Rossi test drove the F1 car and beat their test rider's times. Then fathom them doing it the other way around. There is NO WAY a nascar driver would be able to hop on a factory bike and have a competitive time in a short amount of practice. But I bet it wouldn't take long for a AMA pro to jump in a stock car and run with them....
QuoteJust compare it to how Rossi test drove the F1 car and beat their test rider's times. Then fathom them doing it the other way around. There is NO WAY a nascar driver would be able to hop on a factory bike and have a competitive time in a short amount of practice. But I bet it wouldn't take long for a AMA pro to jump in a stock car and run with them....
great point...and it has to do with talent.
I personally have raced carts and roadraced in the skip barber/neon challenge series. I can share from two points of view. When racing the carts, I encountered many motorcycle roadracers in carts to stay sharp during the off season. We would often times use 1/4 mile tracks and infields for our road courses. The banks were close to say Michigan
or Texas... 25 degrees or so. For fun we would run mini NASCAR races in the carts. Let me tell you,
regardless of handling, running those banks at speed (90mph) was not easy. To do it for more than 20 laps...it takes someone in pretty good shape.
The stresses on your body are much greater than that of Motorcycle racing. The cars don't handle as well...period. they grip more, but are less forgiving.
You feel everything in your body rather than what the tires are doing. From a spectator standpoint,
Moto is far more stimulating visually. IMHO. At our level, anyone can meet and get to know any of the riders. Not so for NASCAR. Back to the stamina issue...in Moto racing there is no comparison to cars...you can rest in a car...you don't get arm pump in a car...you do get shoulder fatigue, but not enough to cause you to crash potentially. The sound of 42 NASCARS rumbling past the stands is awesome.
The sound of a pack of 6 Superbikes wizzing by you at 170 MPH at Road America is equally heart and ear
wrenching.
For me, it's about comparing the two...cars
vs bikes...and the most obvious difference is the fact that we aren't strapped in and surrounded by 1
and 3/4 inch steel piping when we crash at over 100 MPH.
When people watch NASCAR crashes, they say
"dude, that was awesome"
when we crash they say" Oh my God I hope they are
allright"
Motorcycle racers deserve more respect for that alone.
One other thing, we can't bump draft and get away with it. We have to be sure to slow down and or pass "cleanly" rather than pushing somebody up the track.
NASCAR= big industry/ big entertainment
Moto RR= big brains/ big skill
oh yeah, they don't race in the rain either!
Benj.
QuoteJust compare it to how Rossi test drove the F1 car and beat their test rider's times. Then fathom them doing it the other way around. There is NO WAY a nascar driver would be able to hop on a factory bike and have a competitive time in a short amount of practice. But I bet it wouldn't take long for a AMA pro to jump in a stock car and run with them....
That would be something if it were true, but it's not. Rossi drove at Fiorano, and all of the Ferrari test drivers (Schumacher, Barrichello, Badoer and Burti) have lapped that track faster than Rossi. Schumacher has the record, and it's 4 full seconds faster than Rossi's time. Oh, and Fisichella got the Sauber/Petronas around Fiorano faster than Rossi in the F2004. Rossi didn't beat anyone's times, unless you're referring to something else?
Anyone here think you could jump into a Nextel Cup car and get anywhere near the lap time of a back marker's time? If so, you're dreaming IMHO.
QuoteThat would be something if it were true, but it's not. Rossi drove at Fiorano, and all of the Ferrari test drivers (Schumacher, Barrichello, Badoer and Burti) have lapped that track faster than Rossi. Schumacher has the record, and it's 4 full seconds faster than Rossi's time. Oh, and Fisichella got the Sauber/Petronas around Fiorano faster than Rossi in the F2004. Rossi didn't beat anyone's times, unless you're referring to something else?
Anyone here think you could jump into a Nextel Cup car and get anywhere near the lap time of a back marker's time? If so, you're dreaming IMHO.
Who here would want to is the real question.
I would for sure, give me 50 laps and I guaranteeeee I would be close. Tom Cruise came within 2 10th's of the pole at Charlotte during the filming of Days Of Thunder. No way is he going to out race me ;D
I've spent way too much time playing NASCAR 99/
Heat...to not give em a run LOL
QuoteHow long does it take for a nascar driver to 'learn the track?' 5 minutes? They don't have to do anything to go into a corner, except lift off the gas. They just ride the line they chose. They don't even shift on some tracks, do they?
See, you're doing just like the NASCAR fan...
Ok, I'm a motorcycle racer.
My mentor and friend when I was doing AMA stuff was Dale Quarterley. Dale has an AMA #1 plate for something or another.
Dale won the AMA Superbike National at Mid-Ohio in 1993 on his Kawasaki. Beat Polen, James, Edwards, etc... Just flat beat them all.
Now, I was introduced to Dale in 1991 as part of a B team to his A team. At the time Dale was racing in select Busch NASCAR Northeast races.
So, I asked which was harder. Cars. His answer.
http://www.bgnn.com/drivers/quarterley.html
There are four corners on a car that have to get set up right. The window of opportunity is much tighter. Additionally, with only two entries and two exits, there is no opportunity to make up time at one place.
Don't belittle another form of racing because it's easy. I don't think racing is easy at all, even on motorcycles. If it was, we'd all be making a living doing it, right? Or we could just be car racers for a living and race motorcycles for fun in our spare time...
Quoteoh yeah, they don't race in the rain either!
Well, the AMA doesn't race at Daytona in the rain either.
QuoteI would for sure, give me 50 laps and I guaranteeeee I would be close. Tom Cruise came within 2 10th's of the pole at Charlotte during the filming of Days Of Thunder. No way is he going to out race me ;D
I've spent way too much time playing NASCAR 99/
Heat...to not give em a run LOL
I think he was able to use a non-restricted car.
As for someone no familiar with a Cup car doing that well...
Benji...you've got a bike similar to Denning's. He did a 1:10 at Blackhawk. That's a ways away for you yet.
I'll kick your butt in Madden NFL though....
Tom Cruise didn't even drive the car at speed for insurance reasons. Greg Sacks did the driving. ;)
Just for fun, look at what an AMA rider wins for a Superbike first place finish, then look up what a NASCAR Nextel Cup driver wins for a last place finish. Then try again to convince me that AMA riders could be competitive in NASCAR.
As far as Rossi beating the test driver's time - that is what the announcers for the F1 race said. Test driver - not Schumacher or any of the other racers.
As far as set-up.... I totally agree that there are 4 wheels that need setting up. I never said the mechanics for nascar were crap. They are gold. Nascar probably has the most talented mechanics known to man. I have always said that nascar is a mechanics' race. If you love and appreciate the talent of mechanics - then nascar is appropriate for you. NO nascar racer could win without a top crew. In fact - I don't feel ANY race that depends on your pit speed is a race that reflects on the driver.
I guess that shows how I feel on team sports. Nascar is a team sport that only rewards (fame at least) the driver. You don't see quite that much reward for even a quarterback of a champion nfl team.
So answer me on the driver's part in turns. Do they have brake markers? Do they even brake or shift? Do they have to do anything when they come into a corner, besides let off the gas?
They have two corners (which they call 4) that you can learn in a couple laps. Sure they come back and tell their mechanics what they felt and the pro mechanics go to work, but as far as DRIVING - what do they REALLY have to do?
And why do they ALL suck so bad on their two road courses?
I can see why it is harder to race nascar - there is no separating variable except the mechanics. Give me the same car as jeff gordon and a day worth of practice and I will do a ton better than if you gave me Rossi's bike and a day worth of practice. And I'm a bike racer..... :)
QuoteAs far as Rossi beating the test driver's time - that is what the announcers for the F1 race said. Test driver - not Schumacher or any of the other racers.
Ferrari's test drivers
are race drivers - Schumacher, Barrichello, Badoer and Burti, with an occasional stint of late by Andrea Bertolini.
In Rossi's defense, he was driving last years car, the F2003, not the current F2004.
I don't buy it that cars are harder than bikes. Sure, I respect 1/4ley and his opinion, but I just don't buy it. Bike racing was easy for him and cars were new when he told you that. Setup is another issue. I'm talking the actual act of piloting the racer. There is no such thing as spin and continue in bike racing, and bumping can get ugly fast. You don't have to hang on or climb around in a car.
Personally, I would be much more comfortable "widening" a hole in a car than on a bike.
And Dave, you can't argue that NASCAR has restricted the cars to the point where anyone can build one. NOT SET ONE UP... That's high art. But any grease ape could build one, given enough money. In F1, the stuff thy use to build cars all either causes cancer, needs to be manufactured in a zero G vaccum, or is harvested from crashed UFOs. Same with MotoGP.
I still say that NASCAR is a contrived show. So contrived that they lost their credibility with me and I won't watch. They change rules and make snap judgements that often seem to have more to do with keeping the points chase tight and the TV ratings up than they do with reality. It's almost like watching the scripted plots of Pro Wrestling. And there you go. Look how popular pro wrestling is. This brings me nicely full circle to my original point about Joe Average spectator and what he wants from his sports entertainment.
Remember that my Dad raced cars for the first 20 years of my life, I cornerworked cars and bikes for the next 15, and have been racing for the last 5. I've been around the block. I truely feel that NASCAR is more about marketing and less about racing than any other form of motorsport. This has been a very successful formula for them, but I don't respect it. OH, did I forget to mention that I LOVED NASCAR in the 70's, before it got popular? It was really RACING back then.
QuoteSo answer me on the driver's part in turns. Do they have brake markers? Do they even brake or shift? Do they have to do anything when they come into a corner, besides let off the gas?
And why do they ALL suck so bad on their two road courses?
I can see why it is harder to race nascar - there is no separating variable except the mechanics. Give me the same car as jeff gordon and a day worth of practice and I will do a ton better than if you gave me Rossi's bike and a day worth of practice. And I'm a bike racer..... :)
Brake markers? Well, I've been to lots of tracks that don't have nice little numbers that give you reference when to brake. I've even raced on two street circuits. No brake markers there.
Do oval track racers brake? Well, it depends upon the car and the track. Just like bikes. Does anyone use the brakes going into the infield kink at Daytona? Well, no.
But at 200MPH, rolling off the car has a substantial amount of aerodynamic friction and mechanical friction to slow the car enough to get it reasonably settled...similar to a Superbike going into turn one at Brainerd.
Why so bad at Road Courses? Some guys in AMA Dirt Track are better at TT racing than others. They are the TT Specialists. Just the way that is. A NASCAR is not necessarily light...it certainly is restricted to keep direct factory involvement out of competition. The result has been the rise of sponsorship of teams and the employment of all those people.
Can you go as fast as Gordon or Kennseth? Well, Jamie James was a pretty good motorcycle racer. He couldn't make a go at it. Kevin Schwantz, top flight GP star and World Champion, had the money to buy what he needed to have a good ride in the Busch NASCAR series, but didn't get anywhere. Mike Hale rode factory Hondas, didn't help him. Dale Quarterley seems to be the only one that has been able to see success. He's won a Busch NASCAR race.
More on Dale.
Cars new to Dale when we talked about that? That was in 1993, the year that he won the Superbike National. He'd done an IMSA road race, some Busch racing before I'd been introduced to him in 1991. Dale started racing motorcycles when he was younger...but before that, Dale raced go carts all over...before he got way too big and someone suggested motorcycles...Dale was like 6'3" and 190#+. The concept of driving a four wheel vehicle for Dale is not a problem.
The full context of our conversation started with me asking, "What's more fun...cars or bikes." Dale quickly said, "Cars." My eyebrows moved. "...But bikes are more exhilarating." He continued, "There's nothing like trying to hold the bike wide open in sixth gear through the Gravity Cavity (Road Atlanta before they filled it all in before the 1998 season for you racers that haven't been around) with the bike shaking.
Ok, I could understand that.
In a car, yeah, you're in a cage, and it's a lot harder to get hurt. Dale said that was fun. You could spin out and it was no problem even if you hit a wall. But you still had these four corners to deal with rather than two on a bike.
I work with a lot of people, and the neat thing about bikes is that our body position can help the chassis. Even guys that don't know anything about how their bike works do certain body positions on the bike that indicate something about how the bike is working. Intuitively, we move in a fashion that helps the bike get through the corner. In a car, you don't have that opportunity...it's got to be right.
As for this all being a team sport...well, Rossi took his whole crew to Yamaha. Same thing. If it were so easy for riders to win championships by just moving to another team, he wouldn't need all those guys.
Set up still requires a driver/rider to execute on the track. DA is not allowed in NASCAR, so the team still relies upon the guy in the seat to give feed back.
Are we getting to a whining point between bowling and golf on TV?
(Personally, I like bowling...)
The PR machine that IS NASCAR does a great job of promoting their drivers. The teams usually have a PR person for each driver. In the IRL series, the teams usually have a PR person for the whole team...and that goes for teams that are owned by one person (owning both a Busch/Nextel Cup and IRL team).
So, make a case why one is better. How are you going to sell this to school kids let alone adults?
Bike racers are better? Doesn't really matter.
Does it look cool? Well, Freestyle Motocross seems to pull in more people than a road race. If road racing were so cool, why aren't people showing up?
It's what I do, and, if anything, you've got to sell the image of the man and the machine at speed.
Chris, can anyone build a "NASCAR". No, but the formula for building one is attainable. I don't know how to get a set of superbike forks that Mladin has. No way can I ever get any. You can't do that in NASCAR.
As for rule changes and all, they are trying to keep a reasonable playing field. They are dealing with a reasonable foundation where each manufacturer has a reasonable chance of winning.
Do you think Yamaha will win an AMA Superbike race this year? I doubt that any of the privateers on superstock set up R1's will be doing it and the "factory" team isn't even playing. Really, you can probably count on one hand (at this point you only need one finger) the number of guys that have a chance at winning an AMA Superbike race in 2004. You don't have that kind of opportunity in NASCAR. You'll have guys that have the drive, the set up, the team...and they will probably be favorites...but then Rusty Wallace comes up with a win. Anyone think Jack Pfeiffer, Kevin Hanson, Rick Shaw, or even Michael Barnes have a chance at winning an AMA Superbike race?
Moto is better than Nascar because it is more of a racing sport; man and machine vs. the track. Nascar has become the next World Wrestling Federation on an oval. GO RENEE GO!!!!
(Do we get to see the resulting work of anti-Nascrap art?)
My dad and I used to design and build our own sports racing cars. If you can weld, bend sheet metal and build a motor, you could put together a stock car.
I know that most motorcycle racers haven't done so well in cars. I think that might be because the car people have all been involved in one dicipline for life, and the bike guy is changing diciplines. Mostly a matter of experience.
But put a car guy on a bike!
Take me as a case in point. I'm a huge guy, and not very athletic. This hurts me as a bike racer. But I do have a fair amount of talent. I know that I drive much better than I ride. If I had the bread to go car racing, I could be more successful than I am in bike racing. Why? Because it is just physically easier to drive fast than it is to ride fast. Also, depending on the class, I could pick one where the car and driver get weighed together. Then guyes like... well, like EVERYBODY wouldn't have a weight advantage on me.
Old guys, fat guys and sick guys have won at the pinical of various forms of car racing. Fangio won the Targa Florio while suffering from a heart attack that later killed him! Try that on a bike! You'll just fall off.
Sorry, but you'll just never convince me that racing a bike is easier than racing a car.
QuoteIt's almost like watching the scripted plots of Pro Wrestling. And there you go. Look how popular pro wrestling is. This brings me nicely full circle to my original point about Joe Average spectator and what he wants from his sports entertainment.
That is funny, because I was thinking the same thing on the way to work. I think THAT is what turns me off of nascar. The same people watch nascar and wrestling - and I watch them watch. It just gives me a bad feeling. Then they do the fantasy nascar thing just like fantasy football. They get together and watch them go around in circles and watch their picks. It's like dog or horse racing. What is wrong with this picture?
I've done fantasy WSB.
All I know is that there are only a tiny number of motorcycle racers that can even pay the bills.
I have worked in the racing fuel industry for some time now, but I have just recently stopped.
So, I have worked with racers that drop $40k into motors to race for a small purse at local tracks in car racing. They have big haulers, bigger trailers than me, etc. They work hard, experiement, they are looking for a better set up.
That's still the key.
Scripted? Probably just like the NFL where the salary caps keep the action moving from one team to another. A consice set of rules that can be changed if necessary is important to NASCAR.
I think open wheel racing is pretty cool. But it certainly doesn't have the pull of NASCAR. Ganassi has a really great set up for IRL, but he had to expand into NASCAR.
Why not bikes?
Poor rules structure?
You can't be innovative in motorcycles anymore. Everything is production based...based on what somone will allow you to have.
I couldn't get an HRC CBR600F2 Blackbox in 1993, but it was kind of common at the AMA level. Dale Quarterley was trying to get a set of HRC Kit carbs for his RC30 in 1991, but Kehin refused to sell them to him. He could claim them of the then factory team's bikes, but there would be reprocussions.
So, back to bikes...
As anything, focus on the task at hand.
If you want to talk about how cool bikes are, don't talk bad about anything else. As an experienced motorcycle road racer for, in some cases, several eternities, I have a lot of first hand experience in seeing the problems.
But I also recognize the beauty of it.
On another topic, why are Austrailians so fast? 'Cause they gotta work on to get somewhere. Those guys are driven hard to do what they can. They don't practice their sponsors names for interviews. If they ride poorly, they are angry, and they come back for more. They'll sling some things in the press, but they can back it up.
Motorcycle racing in Austrilia seems to be in good shape. What are they doing right?
QuoteIf you want to talk about how cool bikes are, don't talk bad about anything else.
But I also recognize the beauty of it.
Don't slam NASCAR? Dave! I'm injured and broke. I can't even ride right now. Slamming NASCAR is all I have left! :-[
The beauty. Isn't that why we race? I love the world of tilting horizons more than any place I've ever been. The way the sun comes through the trees on a Blackhawk afternoon, or the black and white effect of the front straight at Gateway after you've just been blinded by the sun coming off the bike path. Reading the patch on the back of a friend's leathers as I draft him, and trying to go by on the brakes at the end of the straight. Time slows down, and everything becomes surreal.
I love racing a motorcycle...
I think there is nothing more beautiful than leaning down next to the pavement like it is my friend. My person is travelling around the corner on a machine with tremendous power as I feel the smooth - almost frictionless - surface move inches beneath my head. Even though my knee is sliding like a curling stone, the bike and I are getting more than enough traction to do up to 3-times the speeds commuters experience in their protective boxes. This is beauty. :) ;D
QuoteI think there is nothing more beautiful than leaning down next to the pavement like it is my friend. My person is travelling around the corner on a machine with tremendous power as I feel the smooth - almost frictionless - surface move inches beneath my head. Even though my knee is sliding like a curling stone, the bike and I are getting more than enough traction to do up to 3-times the speeds commuters experience in their protective boxes. This is beauty. :) ;D
Now that was pure poetry....
;)
Now you guys are doin' it...
In 1994 I was sponsored by Avon. The season was kind of a disaster.
Anyway, I was at the Brainerd AMA round. I always liked to put in my fast time for qualifying early so that I could get my name out on the speakers.
Avons would last for a certain period of time, and they were ahead of themselves in that they didn't have much for a tread pattern.
So, it was beginning to drizzle.
I went out.
I really don't slide a bike around much, but I had to try to do a good time.
Brainerd's turn one is pretty much wide open in sixth. Two is a bit slower, but it's flat where one is banked. So, I ran it in to two in fifth gear rolling off as I'm going in. The front start to tuck and slide...but really slowly...but I'm covering a LOT of ground at about 140. I get on the gas to get the front to come back, and the rear starts to spool up. All the way to the outer edeg of the track. Did that several times.
I got off the bike and called my mom.
"Mom," I said...told her what I just did..."I want to feel like that all day long."
;D
QuoteI want to feel like that all day long."
;D
I'm touching myself...
I think who ever said "I love motorcycle racing more, because that is what I do," is right! We love what it is we do. We will argue it until its past the point of making sense. I know a few people will argue it until it brings them to death. The fact is that we love racing, mainly the racing we do. We are all competitive people in our own rights. I know that if you gave me a tricycle and a few friends a course to race them on, we would be bumping, crashing, laughing, and blooding ourselves up to get to the finish line first. Thats just the nature of competitive racing spirit.
Now do I watch NASCAR, no, its not my cup of tea. Do I slam it, OH YA! I dont see the fun in going round and round. I love road courses. I think they give the diversity that I need. Shifting, braking, slow corners, fast corners. From track to track it is the same but totally different.
If everyone could feel what we do on the track I think they would be hooked on moto RR, but the fact is they cant. motocross didnt used to be so big either, but the amount of publicity and dirt riders has made it popular.
Racing is the best and the worst thing to ever happen to me, as Im sure it is to alot of the rest of you. But frankly the worst seems to go away when I come screaming over a blind left hander and she stays planted to the ground. When Im braking harder and later to pass someone coming into the buss stop and the bike is bouncing around saying nope shouldnt have done that but settles down just in time to make the turn in. I could go on for days, as all of us can. But the fact is we love what we do. I have no intrest in racing metal boxes, who am I to say someone else cant or shouldnt. I personaly dont care one bit if NASCAR fades away, but this is my opinion!
I think more than anything that the grade of people involved with and around moto racing in general is alot higher. I know at the track if someone needs a part and the competition has a spare, here you go. I dont know if its like that in NASCAR but I doubt it.
Renee, if you love the sport like the rest of us, write that report and make sure that everyone understands the passion that is involved, the ups and downs, the sacrifices we all make to continue racing. You are the spokes person for the next generation!
QuoteI know that if you gave me a tricycle and a few friends a course to race them on, we would be bumping, crashing, laughing, and blooding ourselves up to get to the finish line first. Thats just the nature of competitive racing spirit.
Racing is the best and the worst thing to ever happen to me, as Im sure it is to alot of the rest of you.
When Im braking harder and later to pass someone coming into the buss stop and the bike is bouncing around saying nope shouldnt have done that but settles down just in time to make the turn in.
I know at the track if someone needs a part and the competition has a spare, here you go.
Renee, if you love the sport like the rest of us, write that report and make sure that everyone understands the passion that is involved, the ups and downs, the sacrifices we all make to continue racing. You are the spokes person for the next generation!
BRAVO!!! We have a winner!
Renee,
Nascar is to racing as Etch-a-sketch is to art.
Sorry Dave, sometimes I just can't help myself. ;)
QuoteRenee,
Nascar is to racing as Etch-a-sketch is to art.
funny, but I've seen some pretty awesome Etch-a-sketch drawings :D
How 'bout this one:
NASCAR is to racing as the Easy-bake oven is to gourmet cooking.
My sister thought she was a chef until the light bulb burnt out. ;D ;D
QuoteOH, did I forget to mention that I LOVED NASCAR in the 70's, before it got popular? It was really RACING back then.
Same here. Watching Buddy Baker, Peirson, King Richard, Yarborough, Allison, Bonnett and Gant in the late 70's was great. After Davey Allison died, I really started to stop watching it. FOr some reason most my favorite racers in Nascar died (Kulwuiki, Davey, Tim Richmond, Neil Bonnett).