To whoever dropped fluid in Sunday's SuperTwins Race at Road America: The corner workers told us you dropped ANTI-FREEZE over half the track. If this is not true, what really happened? If this is true and you were actually running anti-freeze in your bike, what's your problem? At least 4-bikes went down, including myself. I can't speak for the others, but I know that both Dave Ebben and I had nasty tumbles. I high-sided right in front of him because of the slippery fluid on the track – Dave joined me in concrete cartwheels immediately after I went down. This event will certainly cost each of us well over a thousand dollars to make up for, not to mention I'll be limping pretty badly for a while. Both of us ruined our helmets and got banged up while tumbling down the asphalt. I know all too well that crashing is part of this sport, but when it's because of someone else's blatant ignorance of bike preparation....well that's just unnecessary and stupid. Road Racing is dangerous enough as it is, things like this shouldn't even be part of the equation. Sorry to vent like this, but I think my fellow racers should hear about it. Please people, spend some time working on your machines and make sure they're truly ready for the racetrack. If you're new to the sport or simply don't know what you're doing PLEASE ask for help. There are hundreds and hundreds, maybe thousands of roadracers in this country..... most of them, including myself, would be more than happy to help with your bike preparation. Knowing your bike will not only make you a safer and more prepared rider, but a faster one too.
Mike Coulter #171 with MC Racing went down too. The corner worker told him it was from the previous race!? I had him at the grid for the restart though ;)
Four bikes crashing in two turns. Valuable time lost to the need for a clean-up. Huge potential for catastrophic loss to racers (it's another thing to see your program reduced to a wad of twisted metal because of your own error or even contact with another rider...)
Because of how the rules are written, only ETHYLENE GLYCOL-based coolants are SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDDEN by CCS.
This means that you can LEGALLY run coolants that are PROPYLENE GLYCOL based. These are the so-called "environmentally safe" formulations. Just as slippery as the other stuff, but marginally easier to clean.
For those who are opposed to glycol-based coolants of ANY flavor, make your voices heard by the appropriate parties in time for the Rules Committee meeting at year-end.
That sucks man.
There were a number of people running the PROPYLENE GLYCOL coolant last year! Im sure its not going to change this year. Considering usually the first races at blackhawk are below freeaing.
Call up Kevin E and complain about it. Otherwise the rules wont change.
I for one run a PG based coolant, and will fight to continue doing so.
The issue is around cleanup, not around how slippery it is on the track, as water alone, or especially with ANY additive is JUST as slippery as PG or EG coolants.
Freeze up and crack an engine block while at BHF, and then come talk to me about running water...
The AMA allows use of PG coolant, because again, it's about the ability to clean it up; not about it being slick on the track (such as ANY fluid is).
The comment about "someone dropped anti-freeze on the track" is one taken out of context. People say a lot of stuff. "Coolant" would have been a better term, since I doubt that anyone could definitively say what the fluid was. Hell, it could have been oil for that matter.....
BTW, which race # was super twins, and what preceded it?
QuoteBTW, which race # was super twins, and what preceded it?
And which turns was this in? I had a really nasty tankslap/near-highside just after the Snap On bridge into the carousel. Yeah, it was wet under the bridge, and yeah, people were crashing there all day. But this was different - big rear slide, almost spit me off over the bars. When I heard about a possible oil problem on the track, it started making sense to me, that that might have been what I hit. I don't think it was the wet under the bridge - had been running through that all day already when this happened (maybe around race 6? not sure).
I understand about the coolant issue, and both sides of the argument have very valid points. I'm just one-sided right now because of my situation.
SuperTwins was race 7 on Sunday. From what I'm told the majority of the "coolant" was from turn 8, through the carousel and through the bend. Our high-sides were coming out of the bend. It could have been down into Canada corner too, but I don't think any bikes made it that far while at speed. tshort, you possibly did hit the same problem the rest of us encountered. But I honestly think it was from the SuperTwins race. I didn't go through the bend any faster than I did on the lap before the accident, and the rear tire broke loose so easily it wasn't funny. I truly believe that whatever was on the surface was not there the lap before. Anyway, I'm not trying to cause a huge uproar over this one stupid incident...I just wanted to stress the fact that going over your bike regularly is a good idea for a number of reasons. I understand that a million things can happen to a race motorcycle causing it to fail in some form or another, but routinly going through your machine can prevent a lot of the incidents we see at the track. Sorry for venting here, but I was hoping that whoever was/is responsible would speak up and let us know what really happened. I have nothing personal against this person (unless they really were running old fashioned Anti-Freeze) I just wanted to get the true story rather than hearing it through corner workers. This is racing and I knew very well on Sunday morning when I woke up that there was a chance I was going to crash and burn. This is racing. I'll see you at the track!
If the person was using the wrong coolent why did tech not catch it?
Here in the MA thay ask, get down and look, then they ask you again.
Hpoe u guys heel up quickly.
FYI....
It was below freezing Thursday night.
We, being from up north run the PG based coolant for the same reasons Jeff does.
Last year by the time we got home from RA we had two inches of snow on the ground.
Dawn
Quote It could have been down into Canada corner too, but I don't think any bikes made it that far while at speed. tshort, you possibly did hit the same problem the rest of us encountered. But I honestly think it was from the SuperTwins race.
I meant the Snap On bridge (changed my post), so it was where you were talking about, not as far down as Canada corner.
Don't remember whether mine was before or after SuperTwins, but it sure surprised me.
Anyway, sorry to hear it got you, 10Bomb - I'd be ticked, too.
I went down in the carousel. I went out to mid track to get a better drive out (which I had not done in the prior lap) and I even saw a strip of darker area. However, at those speeds by the time I saw it and began to question if it was oil or what, I was down. When I got up, the safety crew arrived because there was another bike down also. The safety crew told me right then that it was from the prior race. My immediately response was why in the hell did someone not put up a flag, or tell us of the potential on the grid.
I guess they were in a hurry to get races in that day and not clean up the mess. I trashed over $1000 in that turn. I was fortunate enough to have a great crew that replaced the brake reservoir and had me back out to limp to a 6th place finish for the points (thanks guys).
As for the PG coolants, I only use water wetter and always have. I have never "cracked a block" and I race most of my racing career in the MRA (Colorado) and I know that it gets cold there also. I did not crack a head in the "below freezing" temps at RA last weekend with the water wetter.
To Jef4y. By the way, the coolant EG or PG are slicker than water, as I was not throwing it away in practice on the damp and cold track. For further proof of this, check the facts, visit the following link and see the water wetter technical info link. you will find a chart showing the friction of the compounds in question (just so that you don't think I am spouting BS and can't back it up).
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
I know it is hard to police the entire group of riders, however I do think it is easy to see that CCS is much more lax on safety than some of the other organizations (example MRA) across the board from the safety wiring to track procedure. I think this is just one of many examples that you can use to confirm that point.
Mike Coulter #171
The bike in question was in one of the Unl races, not from SuperTwins. I forget which it was, GP or SS . The guy was gridded right in front of me. On the start his bike blew a bunch of sh#t out the front of his bike. On lap one we were red flagged, came back in, and I mentioned it to the 2 MO guys who were giving me a pit pep talk. Went back out for sighting, came to grid, and one of the track safety crew pulled the offender. Is there a $500 fine for dumping oil/anti-freeze on the track? I remember the guy's # but don't want to have 900 people calling him. What do I do.
If you read the tech specs on the water wetter *.pdf file, (refer to link in gpracer171's post) you will see that the reccomendations for freezing temps is to use an anti freeze as water wetter does not have anti-freeze properties.
251am, I understand you don't want this person getting harassed...I agree to some extent. If he/she honestly didn't know their bike was spewing crap all over the track that's one thing, but if they knew and still went around the track...YES they should be harassed, fined and kicked in the &%$s. More importantly, I have an issue with CCS allowing the races to continue knowing there was bike fluid on the track!!! All of this PG vs. EG vs. Water Wetter argument can go right out the window...at this point it appears CCS has made the decision that entry fees are more important than our safety. I have always been one to give the benefit of the doubt, so I'd like to hear CCS's story before passing too much judgement.
QuoteI for one run a PG based coolant, and will fight to continue doing so.
The issue is around cleanup, not around how slippery it is on the track, as water alone, or especially with ANY additive is JUST as slippery as PG or EG coolants.
Freeze up and crack an engine block while at BHF, and then come talk to me about running water...
The AMA allows use of PG coolant, because again, it's about the ability to clean it up; not about it being slick on the track (such as ANY fluid is).
The comment about "someone dropped anti-freeze on the track" is one taken out of context. People say a lot of stuff. "Coolant" would have been a better term, since I doubt that anyone could definitively say what the fluid was. Hell, it could have been oil for that matter.....
BTW, which race # was super twins, and what preceded it?
LOL - what a bunch of ummmmm coolant.
What does it matter which words they used? Both of thet coolants you refer to ARE anti-freeze. EG, PG, PG-13 whatever.... And the stuff in your bike if it leaks out on the track will cause your fellow competitors and possibly yourself to fall. It's a liquid that is NOT necessary in your bike so why do you keep using it? Do you get some sort of thrill pushing the edge that much? do you like crashing or causing others to crash?
Just curious....
And for the record, as far as I've always been concerned, the issue is partially cleanup but the much, much larger issue is what will cause my friends and warped family members to get hurt....
QuoteFYI....
It was below freezing Thursday night.
We, being from up north run the PG based coolant for the same reasons Jeff does.
Last year by the time we got home from RA we had two inches of snow on the ground.
Dawn
Is draining the water from your bike that hard that you're willing to put people in potential danger?
Sorry but I'm not hearing one single valid reason for running PG.
And before the complaints that I don't understand the northern winter begin - I grew up and began racing out of Cincinnati. Spent more than my fair share of time draining water, making sure bikes were warm overnight at IRP and Grattan as well as on the annual road trip wiht the open trailer ot Talladega every February, replacing plastic impellers in water pumps. All worth it.
Don't get why anyone would use the stuff in a race bike. You don't have a choice wiht regard to oil and gasoline, this however, you do.
QuoteIs draining the water from your bike that hard that you're willing to put people in potential danger?
3-5 times in a race weekend? Yes, it is that hard.
Potential danger? Prep your bike right, maintain it well and the risk is mitigated to nearly nothing. You have just as good a chance as popping a motor and spewing oil as you do dumping coolant from a well prepped and maintained bike. It's rather unlikely, but it's still a possibility.
QuoteSorry but I'm not hearing one single valid reason for running PG.
Okay, then don't use it.
This is gonna be a tough argument, for both sides. I'm not for coolant either, because it took me down once at Grattan in Turn 1. But, regardless of what anyone runs, a poorly prepped bike is going to leak something or other on the track anyways, so what's the difference. You can't argue too much, especially considering that VINTAGE bikes usually go out and leave oil slicks, along with full exhaust systems (I picked one up) on the track, so if EVERYONE is so concerned, then Vintage should be banned also. ::) But hey, don't wanna add any coolant to a race track that is covered in oil from vintage class. Oil and coolant don't mix well either.
I say stricter tech for EVERYONE, and weed out the bikes that have potential to add more danger. It's that simple. Lot's won't like it, but I'd be pissed if I ended up in a wheel chair cause someone rushed putting their bike together faster to make it to the track on time too.
Done :-X ;D
QuoteIs there a $500 fine for dumping oil/anti-freeze on the track?
Nope.
QuoteI say stricter tech for EVERYONE, and weed out the bikes that have potential to add more danger. It's that simple. Lot's won't like it, but I'd be pissed if I ended up in a wheel chair cause someone rushed putting their bike together faster to make it to the track on time too.
This I would TOTALLY agree with. I've taken some WERA bikes apart, and my GOD they have every friggin nut and bolt on the bike safety wired. Like safety wiring the tires to the wheels type excessive.
In CCS, you have to safety wire the oil filter, drain plug and fill cap. That's basically it...
I've never seen anyone asked about a catch can either, or dinged for having holes in their lowers from crashes, etc.
I was the cornerworker at the bend, I don't know for surewhat the bike
was dropping on the track, but the bike went into pit
lane and the red flag was called after it was confirmed it was leaking, coolant. As I told you at the scene.
The flag was called barely a second after you two came into the bend, it was just bad luck. Glad to hear you guys were OK, your helmets took a good hit. The rider in question was in your race, and was the last bike around the track before your pack.
Seconds count, and we try not to waste any.
The leaker was on pit lane as the lead pack was in 7.
Hey waving, that's interesting, then we had more than one leaker. The race I SAW the water dump from the bike, on the grid, was Sunday race #2.
Which bend were you on?
Quote3-5 times in a race weekend? Yes, it is that hard.
Potential danger? Prep your bike right, maintain it well and the risk is mitigated to nearly nothing. You have just as good a chance as popping a motor and spewing oil as you do dumping coolant from a well prepped and maintained bike. It's rather unlikely, but it's still a possibility.
Okay, then don't use it.
I won't/don't and won't allow anyone else to either because it is an added danger that has no business being in a race bike. But like I said, you care that little about your safety or your friends, by all means do as you wish. I can understand Kevin's position but not yours. All of the care in the world will not always prevent it form hitting the asphalt - and when it does not need to be in the bike in the first place it's stupid to take that chance no matter how slight. I'm sure you aren't one of the 4 people that fell but if you look at it form their pooint of view you might undertsand a bit more. This isn't all about just you and your convenience.
A simple halogen floodlight will keep the system warm enough so that it isn't necessary to drain every time you're off the track. That leave at night only. which works out to 3 times assuming a 3 day event since you'd wait to fill it at the track, drain each night, and drain again for transport home. What, a whopping 20 minutes total time spent (assuming you're slow since you're cold)?
When it comes to making sure riders don't get hurt there is no such thing as excessive.
As for Dans assertion about Vintage - we don't have that problem with them, they have the same percentage of issues as our modern bikes at this point. Might wanna do more than corner work one race event before making sweeping judgements...
I've gone down from fluid on the track several times, water, coolant and oil. I accept it as a hazard of the sport and understand that things happen sometimes.
Like in 01 when an un-wired oil filter spun off at BHF and covered one of the tightest corners on the track. After the cleanup, I highsided to the moon. They eventually closed the track for the day for the cleanup. Did it suck? Yes. Was it avoidable, absolutely! Does crap happen sometimes? Yes...
Again, it's in the preparation...
AMA
CCS
FUSA
WERA
Which is the odd man out in this argument?
Should CCS have revised standards? In certain areas, sure. Should this be one? Personally I think not...
If you honestly think you will stay up on water + water/wetter, over a PG based coolant, I think you are very much so mistaken.
The argument of a rainy track is not one worth bringing up since when it's raining, you expect the rain. When it's dry and there is ANY unexpected liquid on the track, you will slide and depending on where it's at, you may very well fall.
I do understand your point of desiring safety. I appreciate and respect that. However, I don't agree with this particular measure.
At this post, I will agree to disagree and be done with it.
Ride safe...
Simple end to all the issues:
STRICT TECH INSPECTIONS- no exceptions
To the people that want to complain about it, STAY HOME, and don't come to the race track. It's literally that simple. I have absolutely no problem safteywiring every single nut and bolt on a bike, or spending an extra few minutes in tech while tech inspectors go thru my bike with a fine tooth comb. Hell, if I don't belong on the track because I can't pass tech inspection, then I don't need to be racing. Does it suck, yes, BUT, everyones saftey is of more concern than anything. I'd hate to be the guy to take someone out because of my lazyness, and if they get hurt badly.... explain that one to someones family. Imagine being the guy that has to explain to someones widow why your bike leaked coolant all over the track and caused someones family member to go into the wall. Sure accidents can happen, but ignorance is no excuse, neither is lazyness. If your not technically inclined to do it yourslef, tons of people out there will help you for nothing more than a beer or two and a thank you. No excuse what so ever. You don't want to prepare your bike correctly, then stay off the racetrack. There's always one guy that shows up and runs with coolant, or a borderline safe bike. It's not acceptable. We all spend tons of money to race/practice/get there and if someone wastes my money because they have to shut down the track or clean up, I've got a few words for that person. >:(
Nuff said :-X
Next time you northern racers go to the track and the evening temps are below freezing, put a gallon jug of water out and i will bet you real $ that it won't freeze! It takes a lot colder and longer time to freeze an engine block than that!
Sigh.... Tell that to my dog who licks at the ice block in his ice cream pail on Saturday morning. And then to those who get to Gateway only to find a thawed puddle underneath their cracked block bikes.
It is real, it does happen...
Okay... This time, I'm really done... :) :-X :-X
I'm with you Jeff....
There were a lot of engines ruined that day.
Dawn
That whole Northern Racer thing is complete B.S. I live in Detroit, and it's cold here. Maybe not as cold as places like where stumpy lives (B.F.E) but still, it's cold. Here's how I have done it for years, and I've had no problems what so ever.
Beginning of the Year (March): Flush Coolant and change to Distilled Water. Perform regular maintance to the bike and get it track ready. Fresh tires, check all saftey wire, ect.
End of Year (December): Flush water, add regular antifreez. Regular maintance for winter.
Now, my bike sits outside in a garage during the winter. I do have a heater, but it's only on if I'm working in the garage, otherwise no heat.
The end of the year for me is after the last track day at Jennings in November (STT) and I don't get around to winterizing the bike till early December. I have NEVER had any problems doing it this way. No freezing of radiators, ect. It gets to the freezing range around late Nov. here. It's almost June and it still drops into the 40's sometimes still.
So, forget the whole northern rider thing. It's B.S. If your that worried about it, go get an engine block heater from Pep Boys for a car, cover a majority of the radiator and motor with it, and you have absolutely no problems with it. They're like $50.00 and cost a few $ a month increase to your electrical bill. Geez... excuses, excuses, excuses. ::)
This issue has been hashed over and over again....
Lose a motor due to a cracked block and you will be singing a different tune in the morning. Fortunately we haven't but I know of those who have.
You can run what you like, but we will run the PG and will continue to do so as long as it's legal. A properly maintained bike will not be any more likely to spill oil or gas as it will coolant.
This morning at our house it was 23 degrees.....
I bet that we were colder than you in Detroit. ::)
Can we be done with this subject now?
Dawn
QuoteSigh.... ÊTell that to my dog who licks at the ice block in his ice cream pail on Saturday morning. ÊAnd then to those who get to Gateway only to find a thawed puddle underneath their cracked block bikes.
It is real, it does happen...
Okay... ÊThis time, I'm really done... Ê:) Ê:-X Ê:-X
That's neglect. Everyone knows at what temp the "danger zone" is. Take precautions. There are so many ways to prevent it, it's not an excuse. If your traveling, when you stop to get gas, open the trailer up, and start all bikes and let them get to full temp till the radiator fans (if you still have them on there) turn on, and then shut off the bike. When the bike hits the 200 deg. mark, think about how long it will take for it to get near the danger zone again, and repeat before it gets to the danger zone. That right there will prevent it from freezing.
We did that to 8 bikes from Detroit to Florida in November, and it was snowing when we left. We had to start the bikes 2 times, and it cost us maybe an extra 5 mintues of time. We were driving a full motor home, and pulling a 24 ft. trailer behind it. While we fueled the motor home, we let the bikes run. Did it once inÊDetroit before we left while loading the bikes, and once in Kentucky while stopped for fuel. Repeated it on the way home. No big deal. 8 bikes cooling off from 200 deg. in an enclosed trailer while driving created quite a bit of heat. ;D
QuoteThis morning at our house it was 23 degrees..... Ê
I bet that we were colder than you in Detroit. Ê ::)
Can we be done with this subject now?
Dawn
Where do you live Dawn? It's cold here too, but not that cold.
Here's the solution. Everyone move to FL and we'll all chip in an build a big house at Jennings :P
Alright, I'll let it go. I'm done with this ;D :-X
I guess I should have known better to click "notify me of replies" on heated topics such as this...my mail box was stuffed from this one. No big deal, guess that's why I'm a newbie. Anyway, It doesn't take long to empty water, or start your bike every now and then. Coolant is slick no doubt about it, especially when you don't know it's there. If you guys want to keep using the coolant that creates problems fine, but it's not good practice to just get away with the least amount of work as possible
:-X
OK, I seem to recall that the CCS rules say no EG. Is my memory right or wrong? I flushed our bike of it's winter storage anti-freeze three times to thoroughly remove it. Please don't tell me this is a Nascar moment where..." It's our job to cheat and their (tech's) job to catch us."
Secondly, I don't see a correlation between not wiring a filter or bolt and putting coolant in a system. Wiring can be overlooked, coolant is a belligerent violation. Drilling holes and safety wiring takes a good deal of time. Does this mean I'M excused from those chores? Nope.
Thousands of $$$ damage and that's not enough reasons to drain besides personal injury? I'm just a noob so please explain to me why taking the injury risks and violating the rulebook.
QuoteSigh.... Tell that to my dog who licks at the ice block in his ice cream pail on Saturday morning. And then to those who get to Gateway only to find a thawed puddle underneath their cracked block bikes.
It is real, it does happen...
Okay... This time, I'm really done... :) :-X :-X
Tell them what? Water freezes when cold? Been doing this a long time spent a lot of days at tracks below freezing and seen thousands of racers have no issues with frozen blocks. Also never seen anyone crash because a bike leaked a little water.
You still obviously don't get the actual point of what I'm saying which is too bad but in an effort to help you I'll try one more time - 4 people crashed solely because one person had in their bike what you have in yours. Somehting that isn't necessary. Somehting that can easily cause a crash and hurt people.
Make sense?
Dawn, You wrote "Lose a motor due to a cracked block and you will be singing a different tune in the morning."
Well, I crashed at over 100MPH due to someone else's lazy view of maintenance like yours, and like you, their willingness to openly put my safety behind their convenience. That is as plain as I can put it. I think it is crazy. That is the tune I am singing the morning after a 100mph+ get off.
I personally welcome a strict tech. Not the BS harassment type tech the ccs has that complains a sticker is misplaced if they don't find issue on the bike from a safety aspect or if the do not know you or like you. Which I have seen happen this season already on a well-maintained bike. (No, it was not I). I have been thankful in the past (MRA, WERA) when tech caught something that I missed. It was for my safety and the safety my friend on the track with me.
Of course, there are always possibilities of failure; we take that with the sport. However, it is failed logic to say that because it could happen otherwise, that we should not try our very best to make this sport as absolutely safe as we can.
But Dawn, please explain why safety comes after convenience, completely aside from the argument of EG, PG, Cold Temp, location, or any other technical issue. I really need to know this, because even with a BA in Philosophy and formal schooling in analyzing arguments, I cannot figure out your view on this.
Mike Coulter#171
Still counting the crash cost... $1001, $1002, $1003.....
QuoteI've gone down from fluid on the track several times, water, coolant and oil. I accept it as a hazard of the sport and understand that things happen sometimes.
Like in 01 when an un-wired oil filter spun off at BHF and covered one of the tightest corners on the track. After the cleanup, I highsided to the moon. They eventually closed the track for the day for the cleanup. Did it suck? Yes. Was it avoidable, absolutely! Does crap happen sometimes? Yes...
Again, it's in the preparation...
AMA
CCS
FUSA
WERA
Which is the odd man out in this argument?
Should CCS have revised standards? In certain areas, sure. Should this be one? Personally I think not...
If you honestly think you will stay up on water + water/wetter, over a PG based coolant, I think you are very much so mistaken.
The argument of a rainy track is not one worth bringing up since when it's raining, you expect the rain. When it's dry and there is ANY unexpected liquid on the track, you will slide and depending on where it's at, you may very well fall.
I do understand your point of desiring safety. I appreciate and respect that. However, I don't agree with this particular measure.
At this post, I will agree to disagree and be done with it.
Ride safe...
ROTFLMAO - first if you're going to list them all then you should add in LRRS, CRA, MRA, WSMC, AFM, WERA West, WNC and our Endurance series - none of which allow PG.
Not only do I think water wetter is less slippery than PG I know it to be a fact. I also know that given a few moment son a warm track ww evaporates and leaves no slippery residue, PG does.
Your bike cannot run without oil. It can run quite well without PG.
Sorry dude but I've spent way too much of my life working motorcycle races at all sorts of levels and your arguments just aren't washing.
I'll agree on the done part :)
QuoteA properly maintained bike will not be any more likely to spill oil or gas as it will coolant.
Now of those 3 - which are absolutely necessary for the operation of a water cooled motor vehicle?
Whats the temp got to do with it anyway? I've been out walking my dog in 30 below, had bikes in the gargage with no heat, no water or PG in them and they didn't freeze.... Interesting huh? Also had to replace an RZ impeller because there was alittle water we missed and it was plastic. Replaced freeze plugs, replaced an entire motor in my boat a couple years back and that was here in Georgia., nothing like spending $4k to remind you to drain the water no matter how warm is is this week. Still got nothing to do with adding a substance to racing that has no need.
Anyway, my point is pretty obvious if you're not making excuses why you're choice is all nice and logical. If you really feel you're making the best choice talk to the riders who fell. Been fun but got work to do.
Jeff,
You say that you do respect the safety argument. However, I do not see this or anything but diverting the argument from slick track to cold temps after being shown the water wetter friction facts. If you did respect the argument, you would change your view if your argument did not hold true, and another is shown to be more correct. Further, logically speaking, you are even required to change your view to a better argument if it is shown to be more correct and make your argument false.
As for "it is real, It does happen" I should never have made the race I crashed in at all, being it was 23 degrees at RA and my case should have cracked with only water and water wetter. Maybe it is not as real or at least as certain an issue as you seem to putting forth that it is.
Finally, I pose to you the same question that I posed to Dawn.
"Please explain why safety comes after convenience, completely aside from the argument of EG, PG, Cold Temp, location, or any other technical issue."
Mike
PS You cannot gain anything, without THE RISK of losing everything is probably what you are looking for. We can all site examples of those who have gained something without loosing everything first.
I have seen no evidence that PG was dropped on the track. A corner worker used the term antifreeze. What did the worker mean by antifreeze? EG, PG or just using the generic term to mean coolant?
I have seen racers crash in water. I saw a bike lose a coolant hose, that rider fell along with the rider directly behind. The bike had only water in it.
I had a head crack on an RZ after the water was drained. Enough stayed in the head by the thermostat to crack the head.
You guys are all missing the point:
YOU ARE RUNNING A SLIPPERY LIQUID IN YOUR BIKE THAT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR OPERATION !
Now, the freezing argument is MUTE, for the simple fact that it can be dealt with by too many other means. Here are a few ways to keep your bike from freezing and causing damage while at the racetrack:
1. Put it in the trailer and buy a cheap $20.00 space heater and run it off a generator or power supply.
2. Drain it and replace with coolant JUST for overnight storage.
3. Buy a $50.00 engine block heater.
4. Cuddle with your bike butt naked to keep it warm :P .
And for the garage while storing:
1. Buy a cheap space heater (or use the one you have in the trailer.)
2. Put your bike in your basement.
3. Put your bike in the kitchen (I know someone who does this.)
4. Drain water and replace coolant.
Now, those are some off the top of my head. I'm sure you can find a way. Regardless, lazyness is not an excuse for anything. Anything that adds to the danger of racing is not acceptable. There's already enough danger on the track, why add to it?
Oil and other fluids REQUIRED to keep the bike operational, are not an arguement. I'm sure if there was a safe way to replace oil in a bike with something that isn't as slippery, it would be a new rule. Thus, the engine case cover requirements on some bikes.
PREVENTION is the main key to SAFETY. I'm a lazy bastard myself. I don't like changing tires, but I have to.
:-X
QuoteROTFLMAO - first if you're going to list them all then you should add in LRRS, CRA, MRA, WSMC, AFM, WERA West, WNC and our Endurance series - none of which allow PG.
Not only do I think water wetter is less slippery than PG I know it to be a fact. I also know that given a few moment son a warm track ww evaporates and leaves no slippery residue, PG does.
LRRS (a CCS affilliate) does
not allow PG. If we find it in a race bike, it is a $50 fine. So far, we allow water and Water Wetter. If anyone has something that they feel should be allowed, they are required to bring a sample for actual testing on pavement by the US Marshalls. If we don't like it, it's not allowed. The temps were down in the teens last Saturday night up at Loudon. There were no widespread problems that I know of. Everybody drained their bikes or took them to bed with them. ;D
QuoteNext time you northern racers go to the track and the evening temps are below freezing, put a gallon jug of water out and i will bet you real $ that it won't freeze! It takes a lot colder and longer time to freeze an engine block than that!
Rob... you must come to BHF in april.
it does freeze and it does pop the little plugs in the head cylander on GSXR's. there is not a gallon of water in the block... more like a quart... and it does freeze rather quickly. Now if we could just get better grip/traction in the snow ;) we'd have everything handled ;D
Benj.
Oh yeah...1 other thing, I disconnect the lower hose on cold winter nights to prevent such things from happening..... jeez how lazy are some people. LMAO.
Benj.
QuoteNow if we could just get better grip/traction in the snow ;) we'd have everything handled ;D
Benj.
Dunlop D205's do excellent in snow up to 80mph.:D:D Dont ask how I know.:D:D
QuoteDunlop D205's do excellent in snow up to 80mph.:D:D Dont ask how I know.:D:D
street riding I hope ;D
QuoteROTFLMAO - first if you're going to list them all then you should add in LRRS, CRA, MRA, WSMC, AFM, WERA West, WNC and our Endurance series - none of which allow PG.
NESBA also does not allow PG.
Quotestreet riding I hope ;D
Of course.:D:D