Hey all,
Since Kingpin Racing has managed to expand to *4* riders now, we're looking to move up to a substantially larger trailer. Big enough that I'm starting to have concerns over whether my 5.3L powered 1500 Silverado will really cut the cake, especially since we're going all over the country. Stuff is already starting to get loose and clunky on my truck (with all of ~30k on it) - and all I really use it for now is to get to and from work. I can imagine I will wind up killing the thing if I log another 15,000 on it while pulling a 10,000lb trailer.
So I think it's time to look into getting a bigger truck. I initially wanted a Ford Powerstroke... my dad works for Navistar (they build the Powerstroke diesel) so I can get employee-level pricing on it. We borrowed an older 7.3L model for the trip down to Daytona last week, and while the power was awesome, I didn't really like driving the truck. I much prefer my Chevy. So I think I'm going to have to go the GM route, even though it's going to cost a bit more money.
Has anybody had any decent experience with the DuraMax diesel, and/or GM's 2500/3500 series trucks? I know I saw TONS of them down at Daytona - so c'mon, own up... :)
A few questions in particular:
1) Anybody know of some independent websites that have basic data on HD pickups? The Chevy website sucks, and I kind of want to compare stuff like turning radius, towing capacity, and fuel economy to other models - both other GM trucks (say, 2500HD vs. 3500) and other brands, such as the Ford and Dodge Ram. The only one I really know of is dieselstop.com - but that's primarily a Ford site.
2) One of the big things I hated about the F250 I borrowed was the turning radius. 4-door, 4wd shortbox, and the steering radius was HORRIBLE - I think the front wheels turned all of 15 degrees at full lock. Made it VERY difficult to back in a 16' trailer. I can only imagine how much worse it would be with our 24+ footer. How is the turning radius on a similar, 4-door 4wd GM 2500? What about the 3500? What about just an extended-cab version of the two?
3) What kind of actual fuel economy are you seeing? Loaded and unloaded? The F250 I had ran about 14mpg when loaded... but only saw 16 when empty. 14 loaded is acceptable, but I would like to see closer to 20 when empty. I know there are "power" chips out there... but does anybody make a "fuel economy" chip?
4) Main options I'm looking at... the DuraMax, the 5-speed Allison, the tow and plow packages, and the 2nd alternator. Probably going to be an extended cab, tho I may opt for the 4-door, and haven't decided on 2500HD or 3500 dually. Anybody got any of this and have any comments?
Thanks guys!
Here is some info for you from the Dodge camp. Turbodieselregister.com It is a members only forum but you can do a lot of reading and searching still.
The six in the Dodge is really made for towing and mileage is right where you want. I average 21 with about 25% towing and 75% empty with about 75% highway. best I have seen was 25 empty, worst was 11 loaded 28,690# :o You need low end torque for really towing hard and with the new diesel motors they keep trying to compete against gassers. This results in the torque curve moving up which is great unloaded but loaded the V8 motors really have a rough time with getting a heavy load moving. The old 7.3 Ford motor is proving to have been a better towing motor at this time the 6.0 has had some issues.
I myself have just traded in a 01 duramax dually automatic, no probems pulling a 24 footer with 4 bikes and gear. Averaged 13 mpg at 75 mph. But I just purchased an 04 duramax automatic and am already getting better mileage, with 800 miles showing i'm getting 16.2mpg. They say the new duramaxes are being built by another factory and have numerous upgrades, I can also tell a difference in power. I haven't pulled the trailer yet, but shouldn't be any problem. The one I just purchased is also a duallie. You can check out banks website for power mods, and one thing to consider is that diesals actually get better mileage when they are pumped up a tad. I also had a similar probem about the ford, but like you I just am more comfortable in the chevy. Depending on the amount of weight you will pull you might go with the duallie, the rating is higher, and the four door is the way to go, much more room than the extend cab. After 80 + thousand on the old one it never visited the shop once. By the way the mileage on the 01 was a 4wd and the new one is 2wd. But either way around open up the breathing on any diesal( air filter ,exhaust) will get about 1 to 2 mpg better from what i've encountered. Hope any of this helps, by the way if you dont mind north carolina, i can put you in touch with the owner of the gmc place i deal with , he might cut you a great deal.
i've got an 03 chev crew cab dually, duramax w/6-speed (4x4). i haul a 26' trailer that runs about 9000lbs when loaded. with the cruise set at 75 to 78, air cond on and just letting it run the hills to and from MAM(i live in mn) i get 10 - 11 mpg. normal day to day driving which includes lots of rush hour, i get 17-19mpg. 30k on it so far and no problems. love the way the chevs drive, one finger on the wheel at 75 mph. havent owned a truck yet that i liked better. i really like the stick too, i dont trust autos any more, especially the allison. save $2500 also.
chad.
Quote3) What kind of actual fuel economy are you seeing? Loaded and unloaded? The F250 I had ran about 14mpg when loaded... but only saw 16 when empty. 14 loaded is acceptable, but I would like to see closer to 20 when empty. I know there are "power" chips out there... but does anybody make a "fuel economy" chip?
16 empty is ok. Really depends upon how you drive it. If you're runnin' it into the turbo, she'll use more fuel. Where you're getting your fuel can make a difference.
I have a Superchips Micro Tuner in the bus. The new one's have three power settings. Usually the lowest power map, 100ft# of torque, it good for a little better mileage.
What it has for a rear end will dictate things. On a Power Stroke, they are really sensative to RPM's. Keep it at 2000 RPM's and below, better mileage. How fast you go will be dictated by your rear end.
I usually buzz around at about 2100 or so. But if I need to go faster, I'm gonna use more fuel.
How big was the trailer you guys used?
And, of course, you know that the 7.3 PS is no longer in the Ford line up.
I rode in a Chevy with the Isuzu Duramax Diesel with the Allison trans...it was cool.
Turning radius? Well, R6's don't have highway pegs... You want turning radius, buy an Isuzu, Iveco, or Hino cab over box truck.
Hansen still has his 2003 Dodge. That's a nice set up too.
It's for sale!!!! His trailer too!
Have you looked into the "short buses" Like Super Dave's? That seams the the cats @ss. Set up the inside for 2 bikes and living quarters, and you can still tow a decent trailer. The only prob is it might be a pain for everyday driving :-/ I was looking at diesel trucks this weekend, then I saw the sticker :o
We may need something bigger cause there might be two new riders in the team :)
Stumpy
After 2500 miles in the short bus, I agree about it being a VERY nice setup for the $.
Dave's getting his to the point where it's almost all set. TV, Microwave, fridge. 8) Nice seats in there too, with one being a van bench seat that folds flat into a nice bed.
Though with 2 people in it, I was glad we didnt have to have any bikes in the bus with us.
It's cheap enough to not use as a day-to-day vehicle. I think we got about 11-12MPG on the way down to daytona, but we were running a lot into the 2200 RPM range and spooling up the turbo a lot. I think we saw 13 on teh way back.
Driving the thing was nice, too. I can't compare to other diesels, but it was comfortable.
The bus rocks... ;D
Mileage may have been a little lower than what Nate said, but I think he's close.
As for an everyday driver...
You have to drive around with me when I don't have a trailer... 8)
Mine's a bit small to have a bunch of bikes in it, but that's why I got a short one.
I've got an 03 2500HD 4X4 four door with Duramax and Allison. I don't drive Fords (*please*) so I can't compare the turning radius, but it's no worse than my last Chevy, a 95 ext cab 4X4.
I get about 16.5 to 17 mpg blasting around town and have gotten over 20 while on cruise control on long trips with no trailer. Trailering mileage for me and my, er, short trailer is about 15mpg.
It's the shiznit.
QuoteYou have to drive around with me when I don't have a trailer... 8)
Quote;D :D 8)
Quotei dont trust autos any more, especially the allison. save $2500 also.
chad.
What are the rumors regarding the Allisons? I thought those things were supposed to be darn-near bulletproof?
The only person I've ever known (friend of a friend I used to work with) to have problems with his Allison blew it up running a chip, propane injection, and 37" tires.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
Dodge is not an option. I (along with several family members) have owned multiple Chrysler products in the past, and I will never own another one. While I know the Cummins is a pretty bad-ass motor... I don't trust anything else. Poor build quality, poor reliability, and a resale value that is in the toilet... no thanks. I do appreciate the information though.
A short bus? Dave, you sure you want me to steal all your thunder on that one? That's your trademark... "Hey where can I find a guy named 'Dave Rosno'? - Oh he's the guy with the short bus over there!" ;) Actually, I did briefly consider that... but decided to pass. I need something that is gonna be a daily driver as well... and I think my homeowners association would flip out if I started parking a bus in my driveway.
I know with the proper map, the new 6.0L Powerstrokes can see 25-26mpg when empty. That's part of the attraction... being that I used to work for Navistar writing the engine management software (and still have family and friends that do), I have access to all the factory tuning tools. Ramp up the rail pressure and injection timing, and pull boost a little, and voila!
But, aside from the mod-ability, I didn't really like the truck. It drove very much like a BIG TRUCK. Which was cool at first. But soon the novelty wore off. My Chevy has much more of a comfortable, car-like feel. It may make me less of a man to NOT want the "big manly BIG truck" ;) but if I gotta sit in traffic for 2.5 hours a day, it better be comfortable.
Plus, if I go with GM, then my nice big stereo that I just put into my 1500 will port over nicely ;)
I haven't really decided on a 2500HD vs. a 3500. I definitely like the LOOK of the 3500 dually (damn they look tuff!) but I don't know that I would really NEED it. Especially since it's an extra ~$2k over the 2500.
I made the mistake of taking an '04 2500HD 4-door, 4wd for a test drive last night... me likey. Everything I did not like about the F250 was resolved with this truck. I think the only thing I am going to decide against is the 4-door part. I think I'd rather have an extended cab.
Are you guys running the factory-installed hitch, or are you removing it and getting a different, more heavy-duty one?
Quoteby the way if you dont mind north carolina, i can put you in touch with the owner of the gmc place i deal with , he might cut you a great deal.
Thanks for the offer Porky - but an old streetriding buddy of mine (who is also my neighbor) is the general manager for a large dealership up here. He'll hook me up with a pretty good deal. Thanks for the offer though!
i would advise the crew cab. once you own one you'll never go back. whether you need a dually or not, probably not. but they sure tow nice. never had my trailer give me a scare yet, even in heavy cross winds. you get use to the size after a little while, but they also cost more.
as for the mileage, i definetly agree that they are very rpm sensitive. at 75mph i'm running about 2350rpm. even running unloaded, cruising down the interstate, my mileage is lower that driving back and for to work in traffic. if i set the cruise at 60-65mph, i'm sure my mileage would go over 20, but i'm happy as shit with 17-19 in a 4 door dually.
my truck has 3.73 rear end w/6 speed. the allisons are only available with 4.10 in the dually, but 3.73 are available in the 3/4 tons i believe.
i think you will like it no matter which you go with.
by the way, the fact that diesel is $.15 cheaper that regular right now also puts a smile on my face.
Quotei would advise the crew cab. once you own one you'll never go back. whether you need a dually or not, probably not. but they sure tow nice. never had my trailer give me a scare yet, even in heavy cross winds. you get use to the size after a little while, but they also cost more.
as for the mileage, i definetly agree that they are very rpm sensitive. at 75mph i'm running about 2350rpm. even running unloaded, cruising down the interstate, my mileage is lower that driving back and for to work in traffic. if i set the cruise at 60-65mph, i'm sure my mileage would go over 20, but i'm happy as shit with 17-19 in a 4 door dually.
my truck has 3.73 rear end w/6 speed. the allisons are only available with 4.10 in the dually, but 3.73 are available in the 3/4 tons i believe.
i think you will like it no matter which you go with.
by the way, the fact that diesel is $.15 cheaper that regular right now also puts a smile on my face.
I was all about going with the crew-cab 4 door.... until I tried loading up some stuff in it. I have a couple large Rubbermaid containers that I use to hold my gear, spare parts, etc. Trying to load them up into the back seat in the 4-door Ford I had, was kind of a pain, because the doors didn't open enough. I never have that problem with my extended-cab 1500 - no B pillar to get in the way, since the rear doors open backwards. It's a lot easier to get stuff in the back seat that way.
I have another quick question for current DuraMax owners... how many quarts are we talking for an oil change?
I know the older 7.3L Ford PSDs are something ridiculous (17 quarts) - curious to know if the Dmax is the same. A 17-quart synthetic oil change every 3-5k miles will start to offset the fuel economy savings REAL fast.
I would highly encourage you to go and read the multiple posts I made on this topic:
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1075129892;start=1
It is very important that you consider all the factors involved in being legal to tow heavier weights (unless you don't care!). I describe the majority of things to be aware of in that topic about toy hauler trailers, but it applies in your case too. I have a 26' V-nose car hauler trailer that I pull with my '02 F-250 Crew Cab Diesel pick-up, I am upgrading to a 'B' license plate before the 1st race so I will be legal.
It's too bad that you are off on Dodge, I have a 02 2500 with the cummins and a 6 speed manual. Been the best truck I've ever owned, it gets between 20 and 22 mpg empty or loaded. Including pulling a 20 ft trailer loaded.
Call a Chev dealership and tell them you have Allison warranty issues. Ask them how long it takes to get parts, or how long it takes to tear into it.
The Duramaxes are still made by Isuzu. You heard a false rumor.
A '99-'03 F250-350 would be your best bet for the money in Diesels.
QuoteI would highly encourage you to go and read the multiple posts I made on this topic:
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccs1;action=display;num=1075129892;start=1
It is very important that you consider all the factors involved in being legal to tow heavier weights (unless you don't care!). I describe the majority of things to be aware of in that topic about toy hauler trailers, but it applies in your case too. I have a 26' V-nose car hauler trailer that I pull with my '02 F-250 Crew Cab Diesel pick-up, I am upgrading to a 'B' license plate before the 1st race so I will be legal.
Yes, I remember reading your thread back when it was still live. On my 1/2 ton I've got the 8,000lb plate. I may or may not upgrade the plate while I still own it. When I get the 3/4 ton I will definitely get the bigger one. I've also heard that when towing over 10,000lbs you need a medical card (?)
The med card is only part of equation, you need med, drug tests, log books, DOT numbers, and motor carrier authority, $1mil insurance, register insurance with state; general PITA if you go over or are licensed over 10,000# total truck and trailer(s) weight if you are commercial. Well fine line gray area here if you are engaged in an activity that you are or anyone else particapting in the event makes money from it then you are commercial. So if you enter purse races, contingency races or sell a product (tires, sprockets, t-shirts etc) you are cemmercial in DOT's eyes. Now if you don't have a truck/trailer that advertises this then the DOT would have a hard time knowing it just seeing you go down the road; have an accident it could come out.
QuoteI know with the proper map, the new 6.0L Powerstrokes can see 25-26mpg when empty.
I doubt you'd get that.
I've just never heard of it. Only rumors. If you can regularly get over 22, that would be great. Anything above that is a bonus.
If you had 3.55's in the rear, you'd have decent mileage, but pulling a big trailer, it might do a lot of shifting. 3.73's seem to be a good compromise. Bus has 4.10's, but it's got more wind to push with the bus than the trailer. Best MPG I've got while towing was 15 on three tanks while running to Chicago and around and then down to St Louis.
Having driven a van, and now having the dually bus, the dually is much better for towing having the extra side-to-side stability.
I'm sure that the Duramax and the Cummins use a whole lot of oil. Part of the diesel process. If you want to use a synthetic and don't want to spend so much on oil, then get a special double bypass oil filter system. You'll change the filter every 5k to 10k, get the oil analyzied and change it only when you need to....25k to 50k?
New Dodge varies based on year model 11-13 quarts.
With a bypass filter system mileage can be extended to 100k or more with the regular filter changes and additives replaced (some bypass filters have additives in them so no need for a seperate additive package).
Quoteit gets between 20 and 22 mpg empty or loaded. Including pulling a 20 ft trailer loaded.
how is this possible, are you saying that it takes no more throttle input to tow a 20' trailer as it does to roll empty? what kind of speeds do you guys tow at? i get 10-11mpg with my dually, but maybe i run faster and drive more aggresivly compared to those getting 15mpg.?
I go slower so that I don't have so much throttle and turbo happening.
I just can't affort a whole lot of fuel, but I couldn't affort the gas and power deficit fo the V8 gas motor.
20 foot trailer? Might be narrower? Might still be a light chassis?
QuoteI doubt you'd get that.
I've just never heard of it. Only rumors. If you can regularly get over 22, that would be great. Anything above that is a bonus.
Nope. It's been done. It's what happens when a few guys on the calibration team own PSD's themselves and play around with the maps for awhile. Several family friends of mine are getting over 25 empty. The 26mpg figure is actually coming from a guy with a 2wd Excursion.
What kills the mileage on the stock factory maps are 1) EPA requirements and 2) noise requirements (cranking up the injection pressure increases efficiency but adds a LOT more noise.)
7.3 PS do run a bit quieter and smoother with a 203* thermostat. Lots of things you can do to a diesel.
Still, to get 25MPG with shorter towing gears...you'll be going slow.
That can be the hard thing to do with a powerful diesel as they are so fun to drive with all the torque.
Dave, Hansen's rig is for sale?? What gives there? Is he done or did he upgrade/downgrade??
I think you could certainly say what he did was an UPGRADE. Have not seen it yet but I saw pictures of similar haulers. All I can say is WOW! Now he just needs to qualify! ;D
Oh, yeah, an upgrade.