I've always raced on Dunlops and have always been happy. I've recently been questioning if I'm missing something. I'm wondering everyone's opinion on the different tires and what eaches strong and weak points are?
Jeff
QuoteI've always raced on Dunlops and have always been happy. I've recently been questioning if I'm missing something. I'm wondering everyone's opinion on the different tires and what eaches strong and weak points are?
Jeff
get on MICHELIN and you'll find what ya have been missing.. ;D just my blatantly biased opinion but whataya expect. THe new generation are reported to heat up faster than the present tires, but that is NOT a big deal if your using warmers... and what smart racer wouldnt use warmers ;)
I have heard some credible sources say that amatuer riders can't ride on michelin tires without falling down all the time ;D :P
I found Pirellis work pretty well for me. I may give bridgestones a try sometime this year.
Currently, Dunlop, Pirelli, and Michelin are the only tires to use. The others don't have the development.
Each tire is different, and there WILL be things about the tire that will require that you have a different set up...fork height, shock length, etc.
Michelins, what I use, have a huge amount of grip. That's what causes problems for some. One, they haven't selected the proper spring, so when they get on the Michelin with so much grip, the spring is collapsed more and it gets the chassis all wound up.
Wear wise, the Michelin's are very good, and they have good contingency. So, great grip, contingency, and wear. Those are really good features to me.
Slightly off topic but does anyone know if there's a link to check your contingency balance with Michelin online with your account number? Thanks!
Heather
Here's another question along the same lines, what are the contingencies for the different brands?
Lets assume I can get consistent top 10 finishes(AM), who will give me the most $$ off on my next set of tires?
Same question, consistent top 5 finishes?
R
QuoteSlightly off topic but does anyone know if there's a link to check your contingency balance with Michelin online with your account number? Thanks!
Heather
Call the number on the back of the card. That's what works for me.
Dawn ;)
G1- I think they just pay top 5. Something like 70-50-40-30-20. Have contingencies been posted yet?
Michelin is what I'm looking at this year. I'm a noob. I have always preferred the Mich and Pirelli's on the road, Mich pays out more, I'll go with Mich..
QuoteI have heard some credible sources say that amatuer riders can't ride on michelin tires without falling down all the time ;D :P
I found Pirellis work pretty well for me. I may give bridgestones a try sometime this year.
gets back to that "need tire warmers" thing..
QuoteCurrently, Dunlop, Pirelli, and Michelin are the only tires to use. The others don't have the development.
Each tire is different, and there WILL be things about the tire that will require that you have a different set up...fork height, shock length, etc.
Michelins, what I use, have a huge amount of grip. That's what causes problems for some. One, they haven't selected the proper spring, so when they get on the Michelin with so much grip, the spring is collapsed more and it gets the chassis all wound up.
Wear wise, the Michelin's are very good, and they have good contingency. So, great grip, contingency, and wear. Those are really good features to me.
Thats what i enjoyed.. the consistant grip. yes there the very best that first race of the day, but they drop off a tad and stay there. The last race of the day my times were just as good or better sometimes than the 2nd race.. Then they are still great for the next practice day or a track day or 2
QuoteSlightly off topic but does anyone know if there's a link to check your contingency balance with Michelin online with your account number? Thanks!
Heather
nope.. gotta run the card through.. i have tried but Dawn mentioned a number on the back, ill try that i guess..
are the michelin h2's race or street tires?
Quoteare the michelin h2's race or street tires?
Yes.
The H2 rear is a race tire.
The H2 front is a street tire.
What are the prices for 180/120 michelins? I have always run pir/metz and have been happy but I keep hearing that the michelins have great life and grip once heated up so I would like to give a set a try.
-Nick
Michelin Code -
S = Soft
M = Medium
H = Highway
H2 fronts are not recommended for track use.
S2 front and M2 rear are popular choices for track days.
QuoteWhat are the prices for 180/120 michelins? I have always run pir/metz and have been happy but I keep hearing that the michelins have great life and grip once heated up so I would like to give a set a try.
-Nick
I really can't tell you. Michelin is good with contingency.
"TheTireGuy" on the board might know, but I think he's testing in Fontana right now.
QuoteYes.
The H2 rear is a race tire.
The H2 front is a street tire.
this was more confusing than anything i had seen in some time.. the H2 really sucks on the track as you get to be a faster rider, the H2 rear worked ok and was less money than an S2 or M2. On the street the H2 was fine and was a decent tire starting out with track days though.. but then really has little grip when you really push the front. Went to an M2 front tire and dropped 3 seconds that day..never went back till i borrowed my buddys 636 with H2s front and rear, and promptly lowsided the bike..
QuoteWhat are the prices for 180/120 michelins? I have always run pir/metz and have been happy but I keep hearing that the michelins have great life and grip once heated up so I would like to give a set a try.
-Nick
prices are about 10$ per set cheaper than Pirelli .. around $330-$330 trackside and mounted with S2 or M2.. $368 is the total with tax
Does anyone know if Michelin will be attending Summit Point this year? I don't believe they were there except for the FUSA weekend. I am interested in switching to Michelin but would be in a bind if I need tires when they are not at the track. I remeber seeing them at Barber and VIR.
QuoteMichelin Code -
S = Soft
M = Medium
H = Highway
H2 fronts are not recommended for track use.
S2 front and M2 rear are popular choices for track days.
Incorrect.
S = Soft
H = Medium (aka Highway)
M = Hard (it is a harder compound than the H)
Hey wait, aren't we suppose to have more choices as far as compounds go this year? I know Michelin had some thing in the works due to the whole WSBK spec tire deal. Super Dave, didn't you had that low pressure one on at Gingerman until the rain came?
I hope they have a new one:
W- warms up faster ;D
I did talk with Tom Mason and he said they are gonna have many new choices this year! Can't wait to try them out.
Stumpy
I used Pirelli's for an entire season before switching to Bridgestone BT-001's (I tried Michelin DOT's and slicks before settling on the BT-001's). They are cheaper and worked better for me. There is an entire team in Phoenix that has switched to them as well and another friend of mine switched over all with great results. You will now see 100 posts from people that have never used them tell you how bad they are but I'm sticking to my reccomendation, use the BT-001's.
QuoteHey wait, aren't we suppose to have more choices as far as compounds go this year? I know Michelin had some thing in the works due to the whole WSBK spec tire deal. Super Dave, didn't you had that low pressure one on at Gingerman until the rain came?
Yeah, there were some of us that were trying out some development stuff. It's cool. Still, I used the standard stuff mostly.
QuoteYou will now see 100 posts from people that have never used them tell you how bad they are but I'm sticking to my reccomendation, use the BT-001's.
I won't run Bridgestones because the distributor at MAM is a complete and utter d*ckhead.
QuoteI won't run Bridgestones because the distributor at MAM is a complete and utter d*ckhead.
Now that's a legitimate reason to not run them. ;D
It's the same reason I won't use any traxxion products. :D Customer service means alot to some of us!
Bridgestone is also coming out with a brand new tire, the 002. They say the compound is better, and the profile is better. I look forward to trying them out, as 250 a set is alot better on the wallet than 350 a set for any of the others. ::) So far though, my favorite tire is the 208GPA.
ok, now I'm confused about the different compounds michelin offers. Whick is whick again?
Jeff
Quoteok, now I'm confused about the different compounds michelin offers. Whick is whick again?
Jeff
s-soft
m-hard (but a race compound)
H-highway..(i dont recommend the H2 as a front track tire, but the H2 rear works good on the track).
confused yet?? Good set up is s2front/h2 rear and its cheaper than s2front/m2rear... but i still use s2/m2...
IMHO,
as you all know "IMHO" doesn't refer to me anyway,
so this is what I have to say:
S2= use when hot it is the hardest compound.
M2= use on rear, it lasts the longest
H2= best when cold, heats up fastest and fades even
faster.
Now, not all S2's and M2's work the same. It depends
on the numbers stamped on the profile. I had the best traction with a certain S2 on the front and another certain M2 on the rear. I can't tell you exactly the difference because I don't want to give away all my secrets ;), But Tom Mason might be willing to provide you with all the info. Then there
are Left hand and Right hand dual compound tires
that say S2 and M2 and H2...but they certainly
don't act like it. They are manufactured with different amounts of tread on either side of the tire.
Lots and lots of technology involved here. I had the priveledge to hang out with Tom and the rest of Team Michelin at ROC, and I learned alot, more at dinner than I had all season long. So apples to apples, the only way to go is Michelin, because everything else is a melon ;D
30
one other thing,
once you get the bike handling proper, because tires will only help you most efficiently when the bike is dialed in, seek any and all tire advise from the Tire
guy. Only they will give you the proper advise on what temps, pressures, combinations, etc...will work
best given the track and weather conditions.
Tire warmers Tire warmers Tire warmers. Nuff said.
30
Why is it that I can only find the pilot race H2 on the web sight?
Jeff
At Summit Point (and just about any other track in the mid-atlantic region), Pirelli trackside service is always available. Put on a "blue" front and a "green" rear, set the pressures at 30/28 (f/r) and let her rip. Plus, Pirelli is about to anounce a significant increase in contingency payout for 2004.
QuoteWhy is it that I can only find the pilot race H2 on the web sight?
Jeff
Jeff, can't help you there...
But I'm not buying from a website. Michelin makes running changes through the year too.
Anyone have the number for Michelin or Pirelli trackside services for the mid atlantic?
So has anyone actually RIDDEN the stone 002's?? I think I may be trying them out when they are available (sometime this month, right?). I like that they are 100 bones less than the pir/metzlers so if they are close to as good and I like the way they handle then sounds like a great deal. I have also heard the contingency is decent as well..
-Spooner
Flintstones...until you see them supporting a team at the AMA level in some way...well, you're on your own. Same goes for Avon. Maxxis is at least working with a WERA National Endurance team.
Super_Dave,
Barret Long, of Longevity Racing is sponsored by Bridgestones.
Barrett and Nate are long lost twins...Ask Nate... 8)
Barrett is probably getting them from his, his brother's, and his dad's long term relationship with them riding 250's before the class' demise.
John Long, their dad, was a big guy during the early Superbike era, also, so he's connected.
Still, Barrett doesn't qualify as a team. It doesn't put Bridgestone at fault if the tire is only ok; there's no risk as it can be put on the rider, the development of the bike, etc. If he does pretty good, Bridgestone can say it's all the tire.
You see the difference? Dunlop risks a whole lot by supporting so many teams. If a tire pops, suddenly, it's an issue with all their tires. Michelin? Well, if there is a minor hickup with Elbow's bike, well, it could be the tires. Even Pirelli has some risk, but they don't have any huge programs that put them at the peril that Dunlop and Michelin have.
Is it a good tire? I can't say one way or another, but until they put a really fast guy on it out winning contingency races...that's one way that Pirelli made it's mark quickly...putting Larry Denning on Pirelli's...they might have more work to do. Just my opinion.
QuoteBarrett and Nate are long lost twins...Ask Nate...
Dave, Sean was the one that pointed that out to me. ;D
I was looking at the web sight and this is what I found:
S2 (soft, delicate) for track: Qualifying heats, Low-mid temperatures, Smooth track surfaces Humid weather
M2 (durable) for track: Full-distance racing, High temperature Coarse, abrasive tracks, Dry weather
H2 (highway) for: Street riding, Occasional track days, Performing riding schools
Isn't the H2 a non race compound tire? Wouldn't that mean that it doesn't get stickier as it heats up? And if I'm understanding this the H2 is of a softer compound than the M2 which would make the H2 seem stickier in the beginning but wouldn't the M2 actually be stickier once its was warmed up? being that of a race compound? However, on a cold day were tires never met optimal temperature the wouldn't the H2 be stickier than the M2? and if so at what point would the street compound tire have an advantage over teh race compound? Michelin seem to make good tires but there mixxing apples and oranges in the own tire line! It would make much more sence to have a hard, medium and soft RACE compound tire!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and hears a thought label the hard- H, the medium -M, the soft -S and keep the street compound tires seperate. Sorry but it aggravates me to see ingenious engineering get mucked up like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW I need 3 dimensional graph showing the amounts of avaible traction in relationship to air temp, track temp, Humidity and whatever other variedness I've forgotten.
Jeff
QuoteIMHO,
as you all know "IMHO" doesn't refer to me anyway,
so this is what I have to say:
S2= use when hot it is the hardest compound.
M2= use on rear, it lasts the longest
H2= best when cold, heats up fastest and fades even
faster.
Now, not all S2's and M2's work the same. It depends
on the numbers stamped on the profile. I had the best traction with a certain S2 on the front and another certain M2 on the rear. I can't tell you exactly the difference because I don't want to give away all my secrets ;), But Tom Mason might be willing to provide you with all the info. Then there
are Left hand and Right hand dual compound tires
that say S2 and M2 and H2...but they certainly
don't act like it. They are manufactured with different amounts of tread on either side of the tire.
Lots and lots of technology involved here. I had the priveledge to hang out with Tom and the rest of Team Michelin at ROC, and I learned alot, more at dinner than I had all season long. So apples to apples, the only way to go is Michelin, because everything else is a melon ;D
30
Jeff, I believe that Walt Schaefer is the tire guy to your area. His number is in RRW.
Street oriented tires cannot handle decent track use. The H2 front is NOT appropriate for a race bike. I'd probably work ok for a few laps then get out of its temperature range.
S2 and M2 fronts. Yeah, those are good. Usually, we'll use the S2 front, but at Daytona, we used M2 fronts.
S2, H2, and M2 rears. All great race tires. I'll defer what I use to what my tire guy, Tom Mason or Walt Schaefer, recommend for me. They get to work with all the different tires, get to see what everyone is having decent success at each track. So, they have a feel for what's changed recently in the carcass, etc.
The H2 rear has no relationship to the H2 front. Although the nomenclature is the same, they really shouldn't have this same designation.
As for Michelin in their naming of tires. They do specifically mess things up a bit to keep the other brands guessing. Each tire has a specific code labling that designates exactly what tire it is in the M2 line, or H2 line, or S2 line. So, a tire might be an S2 444L...designating the carcass and compound in Michelin's book and the "L" might mean that the left side is soft...or it might mean that the right side is soft.
Those kind of tires are not available very often. But it gives you some ideas on the level of development that Michelin is capable of.
Lots of good opinions. It is nice to see the brand bashing remaining at a minimum. I believe that every tire company makes a decent product. There are definitely crowd favorites but in my opinion the brand of tire used can directly benefit a rider based upon thier ability level.
Here is my .02
I think that if you are a very fast regional contingency rider (this is what I can Robert Jensen, Larry Denning, and Shawn Conrad) or a pro level rider and money spent directly equals money earned, then you search out the very best tire regardless of the cost. The "best" tire would have to offer the right combination of wear, grip, and payout. Right now I believe that for an expert rider at that level, Michelin offers the best tire in the paddock.
If you are not the above rider the I believe the "best" tire would be the Bridgestone. They offer a great tire for a great price and the best novice contingency that I am aware of. Bridgestone is making their efforts in Moto GP and have been aggressively introducing new designs and ideas for the last two years now. They are the largest tire company in the world and have the number 1 formula 1 tire in the world. They have the technology and the budget to compete, they just need to put all the pieces together. The problem with Bridgestones US effort is that they are not supported directly by Bridgestone, but by Performance Tire Service Company. A good company but lacking the budget to afford big name talent and major sponsorships. Bridgestone has engineers and support staff to assist in US development of its product but simply needs more promotional budget here stateside.
As far as Dunlops...wouldn't run them if they were free. This is not to slam them. I know alot of people like the Dunlops, and have ridden them for years. Just way too many quality control issues for me. I have seen separating tires at track days on street riders bikes mere laps after they were installed. I just don't need to think about stuff like that. It isn't worth it. They make a great AMA effort but where are they on the world scene where the stakes are bigger? I just think they took advantage of an opportunity to dominate a US market when the big players where busy competing in the world market. Just my take on it.
Pirelli/Metzeler...I have the least amount of experience with. By what I have seen the pirelli's have a great product with a loyal following. I have never run any though and cannot vouch for them. All I can say is that it looks like they have some good support and there are definitely some good names running them (Mark Junge, Larry Denning).
Maxxis...I talked with them at the Indy dealer show about thier sponsorship of Team Extreme in WERA endurance racing. They were sure to make it very clear to me that thier tire is not a race tire. They are doing development work with Team Extreme in order to provide a good "track day tire" is what they told me. They said that although it didn't offer the grip of a race tire they felt that at endurance pace they were hoping to have enough to be safe but hoped the tire would allow better longegevity and reduce tire changes during the race. So I don't really count them. Sounds more like Team Extreme just saved themselves a tire budget this year by signing to ride street tires. To each their own. Those guys are fast, I wish them luck.
So to sum this up, think about the level of rider that YOU think you are. Do some checking on a few of the options available to you and ask some of the vendors about their product. That way you can make an educated decision based on you individual needs. Good luck.
Great writeup, Rob.
Are you going to post up what tires will be available when you arrive at hp? Specifically I am one of probably a number of guys wanting to try out the 002's and I know its a hurry up and wait situation, but I was going to see if you were going to post that info up. I will probably send my wheels with one of my bud's friday as I won't be able to attend that way I am ready to go early on saturday for the school.
-Nick
Ok Nick! I didn't want to say anything until it was for sure, but our first order of BT002's will be available at Topeka. We will have BT001 pro's and BT002's available for purchase, as well as rains, slicks and BT090's.
Put me down for a set Robb.....I'll be there late Friday afternoon (since I can't get on the track Friday)....save a spot in camp for me!
Dave
Very cool, save me a set also. I will be sending someone with my wheels so if you could let us all know the prices mounted then I can send a check with them. Also are there different compounds or anything?
-Nick
For TopekaI will have soft and medium fronts and medium rears. Call me about pricing, I have a couple of different options.
Just put mine on Jason's tab.....did he get the RR ready for Topeka?
Dave
anyone hear anything about new tire designs??
Who's the Mich. guy in the Midwest? anyone have his number? I got a take off S2 in great shape but I still need a rear 180.
Jeff
Quoteanyone hear anything about new tire designs??
Michelin's changes happened, but the tire will not change name or in appearance.
Michelin guy for the Midwest? He's from Minnesota...Tom Mason...that who you're looking for?
QuoteWho's the Mich. guy in the Midwest? anyone have his number? I got a take off S2 in great shape but I still need a rear 180.
Jeff
Tom Mason; 612 250-9122
Thanks! I'm looking for pricing. Never bought Mich before.
Jeff
I'd call Tom for pricing.
The tires we had at Daytona were specials for Daytona, so their pricing was a bit different.