was just browsing on Daytona International Speedway's website, and I am wonder why the track doesn't promote the FUSA races. It is not listed on the event page. If FUSA is a national series, and we would all like to see more people attend the races and help FUSA make more revenue and in turn get more into the limelight, what is it going to take to list the event on the track's website? They sell spectator passes, so wouldn't it benefit the track as well? If people don't find out the races are going on, they are not going to plan to attend, and even if they are down there, they may have other things to do, or NEVER find out we are racing.
what gives?
I personally believe it comes down to the root of all evil, $money$. Our races are a drop in the bucket compared to other events held at Daytona. Most of the people at Daytona for Bike Week/Biketoberfest are not interested in our type of bikes or races. Spectators to our races don't pay the premiums that NASCAR spectators do, so adding more spectators means adding more staff to handle the crowds, which I would imagine just isn't profitable enough for DIS. Just my opinion, I might be wrong?
I think the issue (well, yea money) but the underlying and real reason is that F/USA is not designed to be a spectator based national series.
Similar to the WERA nationals, they are not attempting to gain the public attention and spotlight that AMA events already have. Any spectators who would be lured in would surely be dissapointed in the show, or lack there of. Fans want to come inside and see a big show, big rigs, big names, big posters, big camera.
The keyword being big. If they pay money and don't see what they were expecting, they're definitely not going to come again, and overall, they are going to be somewhat jaded at the next M/C racing event that they might attend.
This would not only hurt any current or future F/USA event or plans, but MC racing as a whole.
I think F/USA is content, for the time being, in basically hosting what is essentially a national CCS event where top club racers from various regions can compete with one another and possibly win some bigger prizes.
Lets be real here--there are no professional racers in F/USA. Well, ok thats not entirely true. We have, what maybe 1 or 2 teams that might be considered quasi-professional, but 1 or 2 teams does not make a professional series.
Lastly, what is there for excitement at a F/USA race at Daytona that isn't already going to exist in a CCS race? I can pretty much assure you that certain races are going to have the same exact top runners anyway. If they were to try to promote the FUSA event, they might as well promote the CCS event, but that would be laughable.
In the end, its a shame that drag races can fill seats, and every local stock car and dirt track event can fill the seats nightly but grassroots MC racing is ignored.
Maybe the owners of the MC racing tracks and promoters should consider an alternative--rather than trying to charge 25-50 to watch a race, charge $5 per person and make the racing just another spectacle to watch. Add value to coming inside--expos, sales, a carnival like atmosphere, etc. Who knows, maybe they'll actually watch some of the racing, enjoy it, and start to demand more of it.
QuoteMaybe the owners of the MC racing tracks and promoters should consider an alternative--rather than trying to charge 25-50 to watch a race, charge $5 per person and make the racing just another spectacle to watch. Add value to coming inside--expos, sales, a carnival like atmosphere, etc. Who knows, maybe they'll actually watch some of the racing, enjoy it, and start to demand more of it.
I argued the cost of spectator entry to CCS events last year when there was talk of those costs going up. I personally feel the spectator costs are too high! I often have people ask me when I will be racing next at the local track (BHF) and when I tell them that the entry fee is $15 per person they quickly change their opinion of attending. Someone I work with recently said he wanted to bring his wife and 2 kids to watch the races this season at BHF and when I told him the cost he said he might come out once or twice with just 1 of his sons. Charging $60 for a family of 4 to spectate this level of racing is a very effective way to keep people from ever getting interested in this sport! He was thinking it would have been more like $7 or $8 each, which I totally agree with. At that cost he would have brought his whole family 2 or 3 times and him and his son(s) the remaining times. :-/
yup, totally agree. Gate fee at Loudon is $20 if you show on Sat, $10 if you show on Sun. Basically its $10 per day per person but you don't get a discount if you only want to see Saturday.
IANARTO (I am not a race track owner) but it makes me wonder what the minimum they need to charge to cover insurance expenses. Hell, if the friday night drags and circle jerk demolition derbies can do it, why can't we?
Yes, FUSA doesn't buy events at race tracks as a "spectator event." First, to do so would cost more money which means that our entries would cost more. I do believe that in NASCAR, an entry must be made for each car...so, if you're Matt Kennseth, and you have two cars (one a back-up), you'll need two entries.
I believe that several years ago, each entry was at least $32,000.
Next, look around the race paddock at the next motorcycle road race. Do you see a bunch of "club racers" running around wearing jeans, t-shirts...no identifying marks, characteristics, etc? What's there to see? An enthusiaist blends right into the scene.
An organization doesn't make a racing series good. The teams do. Until FUSA racers take their programs seriously, you won't see people coming.
Even the AMA...could be a lot bigger right? Well, where in professional motorsports can a rider that was previously an amateur show up the next year at a professional level event? Certainly, their program won't be developed for "the show". It's just part of the sickness in the motorcycle industry.
Simple F-USA could really care less about increasing spectators. Their one primary focus is racer entry fees. Last time I check the grids at most CCS/FUSA events they were pretty full. FUSA is not even a true national series. It started out that way with a level of ambition, but currently it is nothing more than a regional event that has a few "national" teams show up. In addition most racing at this level from a spectator point of view is rather boring.
Why would DIS even bother with spending a dime to promote any form of motorcycle racing. They get their money up-front and are content with that. Why take on the added risk associated with marketing an event for a nominal return at best.
So, once again we rehash the old "Why can't we get spectators/why doesn't (name the organization) promote the races/why are we the buttholes of motor racing?" argument.
People, Look at what is on the streets of the good old USA ....cars, cars and more cars and SUVs of gigantic proportion. On any sunny weekend you can count the bikes on the road on one hand and most of them are Ugly-Davidsons on a huge tour of 2 miles or so to some bar.
The average American has no use for sport bikes or any other bikes, never has, never will. We are a four wheel society and all the promotion, begging, cajoling in the world will not bring flocks of spectators to our races.
When I was CCS Midwest race director I put up flyers all over the place. Basically it was a waste of my time and money. Spectator turn out never changed. I asked then CCS owner Roger Edmondson to do more advertising. He flat out told me if I wanted to, out of my own pocket I could go ahead and do what I wanted but he would not waste his time or money. I did and quickly realized what he was talking about. It didn't make any difference and was a waste of money and resources.
Motorcycle roadracing will never in this country reach the heights it does in Europe or the Orient. People over there are raised riding bikes and continue to in large numbers throughout their lives. We as kids may ride for awhile (mostly on dirt bikes) or have a fling with a bike in high school then they are sold off to buy the life long dream of a bigger, better car.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the huge crowds of spectators because it's not going to happen. Period. Get over it and ride your bike. ;D ;D
Quote
I do believe that in NASCAR, an entry must be made for each car...so, if you're Matt Kennseth, and you have two cars (one a back-up), you'll need two entries.no, one entry per event, back up cars are necesary/required and only permitted if primary car is damaged significantly.
I believe that several years ago, each entry was at least $32,000.more in the neighborhood of $1500 per event
An organization doesn't make a racing series good. The teams do. An organization creates the series not the teams. NASCAR teams weren't getting the big corporate money until the series was in front of large TV audiences, thanks to the start up of cable and ESPN.
Look at CART, or what's left of it, and the AMA. Both struggling to have a top level racing series. As long as teams, sponsors and manufacturers have control in the decision making process of an orginization the series will always have serious problems and only cater to a select few.
Even the AMA...could be a lot bigger right?sure could, first step would be to kick out the manufacturers
Yup, nobody wants to watch motorcycles. Thats why MX, SX, FreeStyle MX, and such are huge. Thats why Ricky Carmichael is almost a household name.
Nobody is saying that this needs to be as huge as it is in Europe, just that there is NO exposure to it for the public to know about. When the AMA stopped coming to Loudon, and FUSA took over in 2002, the Laconia bikeweek people DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEY WAS RACING STILL GOING ON!! The AMA pulled out, took their PR machine with it and everyone but the raceers just assumed there was no more racing there.
The fact is whether or not people on the streets are into bikes--KIDS ARE. Thats where the ads need to be focused on--sell it to the kids. The kids will bug their parents to go, and blammo, we got people hoooked for life. :D Its the same way McDonalds got started. Parent would only go there cuz their kids would scream and yell until they did. 20 years later those kids are grown up and addicted.
QuoteSo, once again we rehash the old "Why can't we get spectators/why doesn't (name the organization) promote the races/why are we the buttholes of motor racing?" argument.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the huge crowds of spectators because it's not going to happen. Period. Get over it and ride your bike. ;D ;D
I certainly was not going in that direction with my statement of the gate fees being too high for spectators! I personally am talking about the people that already want to spectate, but as described above don't want to pay that much to spectate this level of racing. If motorcycle roadracing organizations aren't interested in revenue from spectating at their events then why do they charge a gate fee at all? After all, we rent the track for our organizations use, so why the fee at the gate? When I was down at Barber for the CCS event last summer I had some people at a store ask me if I was racing at Barber. When I told them I was, they said they wished they could go and watch any type of races at that facility, but most all racing there was not open to the general public and they had been turned away at the gate in the past. They didn't care what the racing was, they just wanted to go enjoy watching some racing.
Club level gate fees should be just that, Club Level! I have alot of family and friends that would like to come to the races, but aren't going to pay $25 plus each. Not to mention the fact that we have to travel 6-14 hours to most races anyway. The last time I went to Gingerman (2002) they had a seperate 1-day only arm band for $10. My whole family could come for that price. And aren't most gate fees collected by the track owner?
Quoteno, one entry per event, back up cars are necesary/required and only permitted if primary car is damaged significantly.
I believe that several years ago, each entry was at least $32,000.
more in the neighborhood of $1500 per event
My info my be dated.
QuoteAn organization doesn't make a racing series good. The teams do.
An organization creates the series not the teams. NASCAR teams weren't getting the big corporate money until the series was in front of large TV audiences, thanks to the start up of cable and ESPN.
Look at CART, or what's left of it, and the AMA. Both struggling to have a top level racing series. As long as teams, sponsors and manufacturers have control in the decision making process of an orginization the series will always have serious problems and only cater to a select few.
CART was always awful as an organization. However, the series flourished because the teams took the responsibility to promote themselves and what they were doing.
So, as all things, spectators showed up to see the drivers for particular teams.
QuoteEven the AMA...could be a lot bigger right?
sure could, first step would be to kick out the manufacturers
At least have a comprehensive set of rules that are reasonably attainable and are enforced with regularity. Opposing manufacturer teams claiming other manufacturer teams suspension components to prevent claiming by privateers and their teams...?
Football games are nice. So is NASCAR. So is bike racing. But the reality is that I liked watching Terry Bradshaw when he played. Brett Favre is exciting to watch. So is Matt Mladin... I like Mark Martin. They could all race belt sanders and I would enjoy it.
Often the failure of motorcycle racing is in the promotion of the riders...the guys that make things go. How many ads in mags have you seen that had pictures of guys with their knee on the ground, but no caption with a name? You might have known who it was, but to the rest of the world, it's just a helmeted guy.
Sure, you go to Europe and the socialist economies tax the living daylights out of everything that people can't afford to move out of 1000 year old cities, they have econo cars or scooters...bikes are part of their lives and fabric...it makes sense that it is popular in Europe.
Anyway, organizations have the opportunity to buy the track time, pay the insurance, offer a purse (if it can be made available), rules, etc. If you rely on them to promote the biggest product, the riders, then they are going to miss out. Maybe if you win, you'll be in a press conference, but after than, you'd better get out your own press releases.
Loudon...the AMA is not a promoter. They are a sactioning body. So, when Loudon pays the AMA the sanctioning fee, they now have to provide a purse and promote the event. The AMA goes away, FUSA comes in. FUSA is buying the track time, etc. Yeah, there is a bigger purse at Loudon...probably some residual from the track or something, I don't know that, but understand how it works at the AMA level.
The tracks actually buy the event, then spend money to promote it to make money.
Gate fees too high? Hard one.
There are those that thing that the competitors shouldn't pay for gate fees because they put on the show... But seldom have I seen racers that people came to see at club races. Back to the racers themselves...no promotion of what they do. If people came to the track, who would they want to win?
I raced with AHRMA for quite some time for some bike builders. We'd have people that would come back the next year to see what we had done to the bike and how I was gonna put the smack down on the Yamaha two strokes. That's what it's all about. In like 1996/1997, the AHRMA event the weekend prior to the AMA PRO event out drew the AMA national...65,000 people there to see vintage bikes race.
So, for the racers on this thread...what are you doing to promote yourself. No one knows anything about you until you tell them.
Hi, my name is Kevin. I race for Donnell's Suzuki and I'm older than Dave Rosno. :o
My original thoughts were just: it is quite effortless or costless for DIS to put our races on the schedule. But maybe AMA doesn't like it. I don't buy the its not a spectator event theory, because I have seen advertisements, promotional materials both by DIS and FUSA, just very limited.
As for racers promoting themselves, that is the way to go. No one will take us seriously before we take ourselves seriously. But being club racers and limited budgets, it becomes a chicken and egg problem.
So Dave, or anyone else, how do we promote ourselves, without breaking the bank? I had previously asked the questions about racers' websites, obviously we need to keep our promotional stuff current, before we go publicly promoting. but how do we do that? Dave you been in the game for many years, maybe you have some pointers.
Lets see, I am a first year expert. I was pretty fast as an amatuer, and I could have some potential, to be a pretty good privateer, in my opinion, it is not out of the question. So maybe one day soon I can be like greenwood, acree, or wait. Or maybe not. But if only the fast guys go and promote themsevles, we will never progress. So then even the mid-packers should run their own media campaign right? Would anyone care, or appreciate?
Lets say I start sending press releases to RRW, would it get printed? If the industry standard press would not acknowledge me, why would the public media?
Lets say I start promoting my race events attendences. Would they come? if they come, is FUSA/CCS ready to accomodate real spectators? I remember Pocono was a pretty good show. Expo, stunt competition, concert, test rides, the people did get a good show even though they didn't know who the racers were. And there were lots of people. But I haven't seen it anywhere else.
I can probably get 100+ people to come to summit point during the FUSA event. Would they feel the value is there? would they come again? I don't know if people would think I am running a bad show by convincing them to come. The FUSA event at Summit is no more than a CCS weekend. No national atmosphere, no expo, and no entertainment for a large crowd. Would they come again?
I have been discussing, and exchanging ideas for a couple years now on how to do our part to grow the sport. I am also very committed to do what I can to promote myself and my sport. But does the organization care, or want to help? I can be as professional as I want, but if I am just participating in a dog and pony show instead of a real circus, would people feel cheated to come? I emailed FUSA to ask about how to get my team's profile on the site, or try to start some promotion for both my team and FUSA, and I don't hear back from them. I also wanted to set up contingency program with them, and I don't feel that anyone is too interested (WERA and CCS).
There is only so much I can do. I don't run the show. The show runs the show. If the show is not ready for primetime, then no matter how I can promote myself, does it matter?
If I run a TV ad for myself and ask people to come to see me race, and I be as professional as I can be, would people still go home thinking its a joke? until that changes, how can we go forward? and why and how can one promote themselves? Must we all race AMA and NOT finish in the 30th + to start?
What to do? Again, this is where I draw the line. I'll tell my students what to do, what I've done, and advise, etc. But I won't tell generally.
But it's not hard. For most...do anything...because they have done nothing. And coming up with new ideas.
Hey, if motorcycle racing was the way that you made money, you'd be doing more to promote yourself, right?
last oct. i got a call from someone at DIS to make me aware that there was races going on during biketoberfest...i explained to her that i was one of the racers.she was very pleasent and asked if i had any ideas on how to promote the races better,i gave her a few ideas...but what DAVE is saying is true,we must inprove our image from within...we must try to look as professonal as possible.seeing guys walking around at events without their shirts on that are part of teams makes it very hard to bring in sponsors to help pay for the event
WebCrush, you said it correctly...MX,SX, Freestyle MX are huge because of the kids. But we don't race MX!
The kids can't jump on a mini roadracer and ride in their yard or field or local roadrace park like dirt riders can. The crossover from MX to roadracing is almost nil. The kids grow up riding MX and continue riding MX.
Yes there are successful mini roadracing clubs around but who are the riders? Mostly adults that don't want to spend the money to race big bikes. There are very few kids riding these things.
Check the cost of MX racing compared to roadracing sometime. It's night and day. Therein lies one of the problems with roadracing in general. It's very expensive and that makes it difficult for anyone to start much less hang around long.
Also, how many ex-roadracers do you see at the track spectating? I'd venture 7 out of ten never go back to the track once they quit riding or maybe go once a year to an AMA pro race if there's one close to home. Most don't like to spectate. If they're not riding they don't want to be at the track. Partly due to not wanting to pay the high gate fee.
Gate fees are normally split between the track and race organization. The percentages vary from track to track. I personally don't think the gate fees are too high. Two days of racing for $20-25 is not out of line. What did you pay for your last concert ticket for a couple hours? Your last movie ticket for 1 1/2 hours? I do agree there should be a one day ticket.
There used to be, but then everyone had to leave the track on Sat. after the races and then sign back in if they were staying for Sunday. It was very inconvenient and some people cheated by hiding out in trailers, vans, motorhomes etc. and didn't pay for the second day, thereby cheating the track and the organization and other racers.
It's a difficult situation because the racers want to camp at the tracks but not go through the hassle of leaving and signing in again. CCS has been paying back gate fees to people that leave on Sat. but some racers complain about that too because in order to get your money back you had to leave by 5:00 pm. They expected to have someone sit out there all night. Figure out the system that makes everyone happy and I'm sure the race organizations will listen.
We are a very, very small segment of the motorcycle world, which itself is a very, very small slice of society. I love this sport and have been directly involved in it in some way for well over 20 years now. I would love to see it grow but I don't think the big lights and huge crowds will ever be there, sorry. If you can prove me wrong someday, beautiful. I look forward to it but I won't hold my breath.
Comparing a professionally run concert or $50 million dollar budget movie to club racing is a terrible example.
Gate fees are too high, and a perfect way to test this out would be to offer lower prices (or even free) for an event and see what the turn-out is.
Similar to a movie event, the track should focus on making its money on additional purchases (ie food, etc) rather than on the gate fee--thats where movie theatre's actually make their money, not on your ticket, but they are forced to charge admission just to cover costs.
If tracks do not have the costs to cover (cuz the riders are already pretty much fronting all that money) then why charge the gate fee for potential spectators?
The reason is that track owners are more interested in lining their pockets than helping promote a sport (although it would benefit them in the end). Due to the shortage of roadracing circuits in many areas, they maintain a control on availability and prices and they know if MC died tommorow, they're would be something else to fill those lost dates (karting, trackdays, scca, even bicycling!!)
I think now that every region seems to have a new track sprouting up (created by demand) we may start to see owners smarten up and find they need to change things around if they wish to retain our track rental fees.
Well, first, the track is not buying the event. Usually, in club racing, the organization is buying the event time from the track.
Food is often done by contract by someone other than the track. So, the track is just renting the space to the food vendor.
Regardless, the event would need something to see. How about watching one 250 Ninja compete in a race all by itself?
As for track owners lining their pockets...how about dropping $200k in legal fees so that you can continue making noise in the same area that you have since 1967? Doubling in insurance costs? SCCA now requires that the whole track be lined with some kind of barrier? Air barriers for motorcycles?
Generally, I always saw the problems with the riders. Amateur riders misrepresenting themselves to the general public, lack of promotion from riders about their results, etc. Hey, when I was contracted to Kawasaki, I was required to send in a monthly form recording my riding, finishes, changes in fuel, oil, etc. At least they knew what I was doing.
A lot of this starts at home. You can win championships in a void. Or you can actually write in down in crayon and tell your supporting dealer.
On the flip side, I didn't even know that Chris Ulrich was going to do FUSA with Arclight until this evening.
QuoteOn the flip side, I didn't even know that Chris Ulrich was going to do FUSA with Arclight until this evening.
Sounds like no one else knew either. No more Emgo, huh? Is he racing the 750 class or the 600s as well?
Don't know which class. Just caught something that clued me in on FUSA, that was it... ???
Terrible example? I thought we were talking about what a good show motorcycle roadracing is? If you're saying the show is no good then I realize why people don't want to pay the money. Make up your mind.
What I was comparing was the value for the time involved. $20-25 gets you two full days of racing compared to 1-2 hours of the other stuff you pay through your butt for.
Gate fees are too high ..... when is the last time you coughed up $1-2 million to repave a race track? How long do you think it takes to recover that kind of expense? Try fighting all the people that sue you for their own ignorance or just the lack of accepting responsibility for their own actions? Check what it costs just to open the front gate at any track before anyone even starts an engine before you make a statement like that.
I imagine you bring a cooler to the track? Maybe a grill? How does the track or a vendor make any money when so many people bring their own food and drinks? Maybe there should be a no cooler/drinks/food policy so everyone has to buy from the track refreshment stand?
We'll see how many of these new tracks are around in 10 - 15 years and how many are going to be used for the main street through a new subdivision because the track owner went broke and sold it off making more money than he ever could keeping the gates open.
You know were all in this together, we all want the same thing, prosperity for whatever we do. Whether that be track owner, racer, race organization or track vendor. We have to quit blaming everyone else for the cost involved. If you really want to blame someone, go after the trial lawyers in this country and the stupid, non responsible people that hire them daily. They are the reason we have $500 helmets, $1000 rear shocks, $350 tires, astronomical insurance rates and on and on including your high gate fees.
Off my soap box now, I'm done with this subject. ::)
I'm with you Gordy...
John Edward...Dem Pres Canidate...trial lawyer.
That's the evil of the American economy. I can pretty much draw a line from there to every problem we have...
So, the question is: which racer is going to work to make their program more part of the show rather than begging for track and organizations to do something....
;D
c'mon, lets get real.
I don't see any starving track owners scraping to 'get by'.
These guys are rich, millionaires, and its not from selling lemonade on the corner when they were kids.
Track owners make a fortune just from the NASCRAP events, and its more than enough to keep them happy.
How many track owners do you think were standing in an unemployment line when they became owners of a race track? I would venture to guess there are very few track owners that were not wealthy before they bought or built their track.
But it's not about that. It gets more expensive every year to keep those track gates open and for some reason you believe the owners should just open the gates for kicks so you can race your bike?
Do you expect a pay check from your job or pay yourself from your business? Don't you defend that pay as though you deserve every penny of it? And how would you like it if someone questioned your earnings on a regular basis, told you you don't deserve what you make?
I know how to resolve this situation ....... why don't you buy or build a race track and open the gates free of charge so we can all come watch our buddies race? ;D ;D ;D
Well, those tracks make money from NASCAR events, yes...
But RA doesn't, Blackhawk doesn't, Road Atlanta doesn't, Barber doesn't, Summit Point doesn't, Willow Springs doesn't...really, the good road courses don't...they don't have ovals.
Loudon...sure, the NASCAR Busch NW is great. Good racing. And the teams are focused.
But it is a great responsibility, and a great cost, to properly promote an event. Imagine what it costs to get NASCAR to come to your track.
As Gordy said...I'm always waiting for someone to open a new track too... 8)
I forgot something..
Exactly how many race tracks do we race on that NASCRAP races on that make all this money for the owners? I personally have never seen a NASCAR race at Blackhawk, Road America, Gingerman, Grattan, St. Louis, Heartland Park, Road Atlanta, VIR, Jennings, No Problem, Roebling Road, Talledega, Summit Point, Putnam, CMP, Nelson Ledges, Oak Hill, Mid-America, Moroso ....... I think the only track we race at that runs NASCAR is Daytona. I may be wrong but I don't care, the point is we normally race at small local tracks that do not have big money events.
QuoteBut RA doesn't, Blackhawk doesn't, Road Atlanta doesn't, Barber doesn't, Summit Point doesn't, Willow Springs doesn't...really, the good road courses don't...they don't have ovals.
Of those you listed, I've only been to Summit, and I gotta say--they actually DO get people in the stands. I don't recall their gate fees.
And as for NASCAR...what's it cost to spectate? A lot more. Beers are like $8...and a pit pass? Good luck.
nascrap already has a dedicated following, they can charge whatever they like and the fans will buy it
MC Racing on the other hand, barely has any following.
Why not, just for ONE day, open the gates for free during a MC event. Maybe we'd have a better idea of how many people MIGHT come if cost wasn't an issue. Maybe we could get some converts?
C'mon, you could open the gates for a watermelon seed spitting contest and fill the place just because it's free. Free gates will not tell you anything except how many people are willing to waste time doing anything just because it's free ......kind of like replying to this thread.
Good night and hope you have a good, safe race season. ;D ;D
well, how does a track full of non-paying spectators differ from a track empty of paying spectators?
Zero income either way, why not try to build some base. Do ONE day free, and then move to like $5 per person, then $10, and so forth.
Ya know, like a drug dealer--give em a lil now for free to get em hooked
it is a commonly used marketing strategy to all business that WANT future earnings.
0% apr
free first month rent
free first 3 issues
free first sample
grand opening sale
etc...
you entice possible customers by offereing great deals to get them in the door and then let your product do the selling.
but back to my issue, I don't think the product is very sellable as is.
maybe when the show producers can update their website, people will take it a little more seriously? when we are looking at "2003 info coming next week" a month after the 2003 season ends, it is not very easy to sell that product. And thats just a small example.
well I am starting to promoting myself this year. I hope everyone does the same...
again, I would hate to have the people who come and check out the show because of my promotions be dissappointed by the show...
But then we're back to the product.
What are you getting for if you got in for free? A bunch of sportsman racers that are there for the benefit of their own recreation. Is anyone prepared with autograph cards? How about a website? Distinct team logo or some kind of consistent identity? Is the team name even identifiable? Does the team have a name?
That's the problem if you got in for free...you got what you paid for...and a potential "fan" is lost.
NASCAR has a base that is growing, not maintaining. That comes through the marketing that the teams do along with their sponsors and the organization. They all realize that their meal ticket is related to all of their success.
Even NASCAR events at the local level, small dirt and paved ovals, have better followings than local club motorcycle events. Indentities, marketing, etc. They even have more dates at the same location.
You've got to have something for someone to want to come. If I don't think I'll like the movie...I won't go see it. If I think it might be cool, I'd go see it.
"What are you gonna do this weekend?"
"I'm gonna go see the motorcycle road races at Gingerman."
"Is that Freddie Spencer guy going to be there?"
"Nah, some guy named Denning. He's fast. Heard he set some track records."
That's how it works.
Quoteit is a commonly used marketing strategy to all business that WANT future earnings.
you entice possible customers by offereing great deals to get them in the door and then let your product do the selling.
but back to my issue, I don't think the product is very sellable as is.
maybe when the show producers can update their website, people will take it a little more seriously? when we are looking at "2003 info coming next week" a month after the 2003 season ends, it is not very easy to sell that product. And thats just a small example.
Ok, first, why send anyone to the organizations' website? You're the product. Sell yourself.
I'm not selling CCS or Daytona...I'm selling "Super Dave"... If FUSA or Daytona get you to me, then good. If "Super Dave" gets you to the other websites...even better, because that makes me better at advertising...I have power.
If you relied on getting people in the door only on price, then no one would ever go to opening day of new movies. They do. You've got to sell the sizzle.
We're not selling volume here to a distributor based on a bid. We should be selling quality. NASCAR Nextel Cup has 37 exclusive races around the country. 45 cars are on the grid for the Daytona 500 now all within 106%. It is the only 2004 season opener. Discounts? Why? There are only so many seats available. You've got to pay to see it all live.
QuoteOk, first, why send anyone to the organizations' website? You're the product. Sell yourself.
I'm not selling CCS or Daytona...I'm selling "Super Dave"... If FUSA or Daytona get you to me, then good. If "Super Dave" gets you to the other websites...even better, because that makes me better at advertising...I have power.
If you relied on getting people in the door only on price, then no one would ever go to opening day of new movies. They do. You've got to sell the sizzle.
We're not selling volume here to a distributor based on a bid. We should be selling quality. NASCAR Nextel Cup has 37 exclusive races around the country. 45 cars are on the grid for the Daytona 500 now all within 106%. It is the only 2004 season opener. Discounts? Why? There are only so many seats available. You've got to pay to see it all live.
well I can sell my program all I want, but would anyone come just to see me? is me the only part of the show that shines?
It would be easier if I win every race or come close, then I can get people to come see my program because I am the star of the show.
I mean I can promote myself so far. But when people do come, and they don't get a show comparable to what I advertised, would they stick around? If I am the only team in the pits wearing uniforms and having a professional set up, would it be enough?
If the show itself is not good enough, it end up disvaluing my program.
The Ducati guy had the right show, right truck, right crew, right bike, and won AM races. All racers had something to say about the guy, but he did draw most spectators. His set up was 10 times more impressive than the real good teams.
Ok so we are back to the racers putting on a show. If all the top racers who finish infront of me put on a good show, then I would have less doubts.
But what about the org? I can't even direct people to see who else is in the show because its not in there.
the org having the right web presence validate my program to the unknowing public. If FUSA site does not list there is a race this weekend, or that I won a race, would people believe me based on the site?
its one thing to have no website, its another to have an defunct, or out of date website. It makes me look like a fraud.
and yes this ALREADY happened this year. A potential sponsor questioning the accuracy of information I submitted because the FUSA site is not up to date.
I must agree with R6 about the organization. They have to be the head of the show, make it all real to the potential fan. If they don't have their facts and figures correct it throws a shadow on the racer. You can bust your ass all you want promoting yourself but if the org. doesn't support it what's the use?
But think of this ....why does Clear Channel put all this money and glitz behind MX, SX, Freestyle and not road racing? Because they know the fans are out there for that stuff and not for roadracing. If they even thought they could get those kind of crowds for roadracing don't you think they would be trying?
How about if we do wheelies or smoky burnouts out of every corner, brakies going into every corner and whatever other stunt thing you can think of, then the weirdos that want to see that rather than good racing will show up. Look at what MX, SX riders do to wow the crowds.
Those MX, SX riders get their following by putting on a show, being the most flashy guy out there. How do we do that and race safely? It's two different programs, two different shows and ours is the boring one to watch unless you are in the sport, and I don't mean a street rider on a new R6 trying to be the brakie king.
well we can't even wheelie on the cool down lap :p
I guess what frustrate me is the people running the show doesn't deem there to be any potential in the series beyond what is already in place. therefor no real effort is put into promoting the program TO spectators. I know they are doing a lot to the racers. 3 full page ad in RRW is a great thing. That is always the first thing I read. But thats for racers. I guess FUSA has decided to take a club racing identity and will just leave at that.
I guess I will have to wait til I get to AMA to spend more marketing efforts. sure I want to do my part, and promote myself, but I also don't want people to think that I am just for show... a small fish in a small pond trying to act like a shark :D
Quotewell I can sell my program all I want, but would anyone come just to see me? is me the only part of the show that shines?
It would be easier if I win every race or come close, then I can get people to come see my program because I am the star of the show.
Sure, you might not win every race...
Did Colin Edwards do well in MotoGP? I'm sure people went to see him.
Regardless, the FIM doesn't pay him. His team pays him because they know that people come to see HIM.
QuoteI mean I can promote myself so far. But when people do come, and they don't get a show comparable to what I advertised, would they stick around? If I am the only team in the pits wearing uniforms and having a professional set up, would it be enough?
If the show itself is not good enough, it end up disvaluing my program.
What would you be advertising? YOU are racing, YOU are trying, YOU are working. Rossi wants to win, he feels that he can win, but he still probably doesn't boast that he's gonna win.
If he wins by 20 seconds, it's boring. No show in that. Does winning by too big of a margin disvalue your show?
QuoteThe Ducati guy had the right show, right truck...
Focus on the task at hand...you. Who cares about the Ducati guy. Everyone still makes a whole lot more money than I do. I still do this.
QuoteBut what about the org? I can't even direct people to see who else is in the show because its not in there.
the org having the right web presence validate my program to the unknowing public. If FUSA site does not list there is a race this weekend, or that I won a race, would people believe me based on the site?
Two things there. First, most racers don't set up sites or promotional programs. So, where would the org direct the people? Pretty much into no where.
Second, has anyone bothered updating the organization with information?
http://www.formulausa.com/news/news_040119.asp
Again, the orgs site may help a lot, but wouldn't you rather get them to yours?
Back to Arenacross, etc...
Teams...the teams work to create an image, etc. Arenacross didn't happen overnight, but it certainly looked a lot like club racing when it started in the mid 80's. But the riders realized that there was something to be done. Now, it's its own stand alone program.
Even road racing has changed dramatically since then.
ok before I making a laughing stock out of myself ... would anyone take me seriously? at least among my peers?
I don't have any problems at all marketing to general public, sportbike riders, anyone outside of racing. Marketing is my business, and I can put together an attractive package in time. But would the people in the business take me seriously?
if I send press releases to RRW or even FUSA, without a unique program (like your race against cancer) would they bother with it? If I just want to promote myself and my team, would they help? well I did try to contact ken abbott regarding putting my info and my team info on the FUSA website, but heard no reply yet.
I guess I can always try. But until I am proven to be a top guy, I don't get the feeling that anyone is going to take me seriously, or much resources are open to me, the racer to promote myself. At least not in the industry. most things have to be done myself.
I would love to get my bio and info and pic on to the FUSA website, but I don't know how that could happen if they do not get around to answer me or update the site.
Well, the question is then also...should all first year experts be taken seriously?
Honestly, until you've proven that you can do something at a certain level, or someone believes enough in you that they put up the money, what can be said.
Can you imagine the amount of information that pours into RRW and FUSA over time? Then can you back it up?
Really...I heard that a guy that I know is supposed to get two free Arai helmets...he's a second year amateur coming from a very small bike and is up grading to an SV. Amateur also.
Guess that's part of the sickness too.
As for Super Dave's Race Against Childhood Cancer...well, yeah, it's unique. But I don't have to get anywhere. I'm 36 and I raced AMA Pro long before many of you had anything to do with this sport (not you Gordy.... ;D...but I did ride your KZ650). My goals revolve around my program and making money for the MACC Fund. I'm able to use my experiences and my relationships with my sponsors and the motorcycle industry to help. I need more help, but I've developed myself and my program to do it over many years. Organizations only gave me an outlet for my program. At this time, FUSA is the best bang for my buck that I have to spend. I can't rely on them, but if I do well and my program is successful, that will go back into promoting the series.
So, if you'd all like to make the series better...support me. I try to make my "advertising" go a long way... ;D
I see your point. Then if unproven's are not to be taken seriously until we prove something, then how much promoting can we do to better the series?
Right now, my sponsors are mostly coming by way of personally connections, or finding untapped sources. I don't expect anyone to put up any money into my program but myself. I do appreciate all the support I have received/will receive in the future, no matter how small. and I will do what I can to try to market myself, and in turn, my supporters. A program is coming together.
I wish you all the luck in your program, dave! and I have set goals for myself to achieve a few things this year and build my program step at a time. I have faith it will get where I want it to go. Maybe others will too...
what race events will you take your program to? I will try to market it a bit too
You're not promoting to make the series better. If you promote yourself, though, the series will be better.
You prove yourself by making commitments and following through. I cannot tell you how many people I know or have heard of that say they will do the "whole AMA series", yet I'm one of those few people that I know of that have actually done it. And saying it and doing it are two different things. Ask some of the people that have tried to do the whole series.
Where will I work my program? Anywhere I can, all the time. Specifically, my racing program looks like this...
http://www.team-visionsports.com/images/2004Schedule.pdf
But I also have five VRS Skills & Thrills programs, three Visionsports' Racer Universities, and four one on one programs already scheduled. The elementary school that my kids go do has already asked me to come in for "career day", and I'm working on setting up a Daytona 200 party at my sponsoring dealership, http://www.sportsmanspark.net
Really, it doesn't end. I've got other things I'm working on, and I've dropped trying to supply everyone with Power Mist Racing Fuel to make room...I'm still a user, but I'm not going to stock it for everyone, but I will place orders.
It never ends. ;D
I promote myself pretty heavily just short of press releases--AND I'm the laughing stock of my peers. I take flack on every level, flamed on every board, etc.
At the same time, believe it or not, kids DO come up to me and ask for autographs and stuff. They don't know who I am, just that I'm a racer with a flashy program. They were actually hunting me down last October at Daytona, which surprised me.
At the Loudon national, one for which I think the most 'professional show' was put on, likely due to big show experience, there was an autograph session for which I was invited too. Me and my g/f wearing nice pitshirts (and matching bright red hair dye) showed up, and rather than just signing the event program like the other top guys there (hooter, arclight, etc) we brough our own mini-posters.
Again, people I knew ragged on me, cuz i'm a joke--but ya know what--I put on the 'show', and many many kids (and adults) seemed to appreciate my showing and I created numerous smiles. Many of them came by my pits later on (also what I like to consider a bigger 'show' area with dual canopies, big trailer, etc) to ask questions about the bike(s), the team, the event, etc. I gladly spoke with each and every person that came over.
Check out some pics of the event I'm talking about
http://racing.webcrush.com/photos/track_photos/2003/2003_season_photos.htm#national
At least we wont have to worry about you getting rear ended with 200 gallons of race fuel in the trailer !!
I just do every little thing that I can. I'm not a top racer or anything (neither is my husband). Last year was our first full season. But we named our team, and chose a consistent logo that's on our trailer, stationery, race reports, website, and my leathers. I try to keep our website updated as much as possible. Right now, rather than focus on everything, I try to spread time & effort out on a few small things and then really focus on one major thing. For me, that's our race reports. After every race weekend (or 2), I write up all of the race reports and team happenings in our newsletter, The Bullseye. I do everything myself, including the writing, layout, photos, etc. It then gets posted on our website, with the link sent out all over message boards, groups that are interested, friends, and family. Hard copies go to the sponsors. It is a TON of work just to put out one issue of The Bullseye. But I think it's worth it, and it's one of the highest quality newsletters put out by a racer at my level.
We've got quite a following because people enjoyed reading the reports. They're written such that you don't have to be a racer to enjoy the reports. Enjoying writing and being a good writer helps. I had a non-bike industry sponsor last year (Tucson Readymix donated cash) and I wasn't sure if they were interested in sponsoring me again for this year. Sure enough, they were, and it was because they were kept up to date and enjoyed the newsletters. It certainly wasn't because I was increasing sales of readymix.
This year I'm going to increase the visibility of The Bullseye by leaving copies in motorcycle shops, bookstores, libraries, etc. around town, and have copies on our info table in the pits. Gotta start somewhere. This is where I'm starting.
http://members.cox.net/strikeracing/bullseye03/bullseye_octnov03.pdf
I liked reading your reports too !!
And Im making a web site.
Now i need to make up some graphics !!
If only i had about double the race budget, i could do more schools, more races, more horse power !
Hey its only my second year
See, some of you knew what to do in the first place. And that's how it starts.
Adam,
Aw crap you're not a respected member of the racing community? I have to stop coming to you for advice. ;D
Ray
I will try to give my answers some of what I have seen, Gordy and Dave have done a very good job so far at answering for our sport.
Daytona does promote F-USA and CCS within a grass roots program that has proven to be the most cost-effective for the results they get. We are not the stars of their world famous bike race, but they like us being there just the same. (Someone has to provide "training" for the future Daytona 200 stars.)
Summit Point's gate fees are $25 per person for the weekend, $15 per person after 12pm on Sunday (I think that is the time cut off.)
You are right, CCS-FUSA-WERA-GLRRA-ASMA-SMRI-AFM/-WSMC-MRA-CMRA-OMRRA-WMRRA all survive because the racers pay the bills. What the racers don't pay, the "spectators" do, which is why gate passes are sold. Car entry fees are $250 per class for most SCCA-type events up to $3000 for "professional" races. These entry fees get you 4 to 40 gate passes included, depending on the series, and "Over-Crew passes" cost $25 to $150, depending on where you are. We could all go to that formula, but why make you pay $250 for just you to come in when the guy next to you pays his $250 and brings three others with him. It seemed fairer to spread the cost over everyone, those with larger crews paid more, and those with smaller paid less.
Formula USA is a step up from a normal CCS weekend, but it is still not AMA Pro-Racing. It is a place for you to learn your craft, including the art of self-promotion. Dave is right, make you and your teams look the part, you can buy "team shirts" from anywhere and sew on your sponsor's patches to make your team stand out like the Ducati boys did. It really doesn't cost that much. (Try buying staff shirts for 300 and corner crew shirts for 1000; thankfully you would only have 3-5 on a normal crew.)
Our sport has one big disadvantage; you cannot sit in one seat and see the whole thing. Americans love to see action, the start AND the finish without moving around. That is why NFL, NASCAR, IRL, SX, and things like Monster Truck shows are so popular and we are such a niche sport. It is the egg and chicken dilemma, you can't get on TV until the fans demand it, and you can't expose enough people to your sport without TV. The same goes for big money sponsorship, no TV, no big money.
Free gate passes won't help, as was said earlier, they would come when it was free and then just leave once you tried to charge them. (The car financing analogy was good, but then again, we are not selling cars. We are selling entertainment-whether it is the racer "buying" track time with his entry or the spectator a good time with his ticket- I haven't seen a movie theatre or local racetrack give free admission to an event unless they were being compensated by someone else to do it.) Besides, tracks who rely on that revenue would only increase the cost to the organizer to cover the loss of revenue, causing us to raise the entry fees since all the bills would have to be paid by the racers then. Catch-22.
We could discuss this forever without a real answer. The reality is that unless we all work together, we are going nowhere. Change, or advancement, is not going to come over night. I can promise you that Tiffiney, Linda, Kenny and myself will do a better job this year. We have a better grasp of what, (and who) we really have to work with, and we will do our part. Can we count on everyone else to do theirs?
Be seeing you.
Hey, good comments, Kevin.
Certainly, this isn't easy. I get to baby sit my instructors, and myself...you, meanwhile have to baby sit me and the other 5k road racers that make up CCS.
Hopefully, this will get some people focusing on the goal rather than the journey; trying to better the sport for everyone by working our individual corner niches.
As for stadium sports...yeah, they are cool, but you don't have the opportunity to go get up close at stuff like that. It's kind of a different crowd, road racing. I think those kind of specatators like to view from different places, actually watch someone put on their leathers, maybe bump into a former world champion getting a hot dog for lunch. It's those things that make the whole road racing thing more of a full experience rather than a block of time like a concert. It's a matter of selling that kind of feel about the sport...hey, do you remember the first time you smelled really nasty oxygenated racing fuel? How about seeing a roasted rear tire after a practice session? That's the kind of stuff that needs to be sold, because you can't get that in a stadium...
Maybe you've got a hottie sellin' ya popcorn or something, but you're not gonna get to see a deflated football or anything like that.
QuoteYou are right, CCS-FUSA-WERA-GLRRA-ASMA-SMRI-AFM/-WSMC-MRA-CMRA-OMRRA-WMRRA all survive because the racers pay the bills.
Hey! ASMA is mentioned in there, too! We've made the big time! 8) (And we're mentioned before SMRI! ;D)
I think we, as roadracers, dance to the beat of a different drummer as they say. This goes for sports car racers also. We do this because we love to ride, love to race or at least be involved in the sport in some way. The opportunity to become one of the big names, and race in front of huge crowds is so limited it's almost easier to win a lottery. How many MotoGP riders are there? I think the field is 30something? And how many new riders get the opportunity each year? Very few!
Your best shot in the U.S. to be in front of a crowd is AMA Pro series. You need CCS and F-USA to get there. Hone your skills, both on and off the track here and when you feel you're ready and can get the backing go for the AMA series.
At that point you can race in front of the biggest crowds you can get in American motorcycle racing. No they don't compare to Europe but it's what we have.
Many people have tried making this a huge spectator sport and have failed, one after another.
Roger Edmondson thought the way to do it was to put as many races as possible into superspeedways where the fans can see the whole track. Just like NASCRAP. This resulted in some very hacked together, unsafe racetracks and still not the big crowds we want.
Daytona has one of the biggest groups of motorcyclists gathered in one place every March but how many can you get to the races? Very few. Why? You can say it's because they are all H-D riders and they don't care about the races. But what is stopping thousands of sport bike riders from congregating in Daytona to see the races? Daytona started because of the races ........ but they have lost the fans. Can anyone explain that? Why don't the people you would think would be interested in the Daytona 200 not show up to spectate? Why don't they show up for the other races around the country? I don't think it's because of the cost of a ticket.
It's a pretty simple straight forward answer. They don't care. The number of sport bike riders really interested in racing are few. Most of them are short term, bought a bike for kicks riders that ride a couple years and are gone. The same guys that come to Elkhart Lake, camp out across from the track, ride their stunt stuff out behind RA and never make it into the race track. I watched one idiot flip over backwards and destroy a new Gixxer last year, in the middle of the day during the races on the county road by gate 4. He was with a group of at least 10-15 others that should have been watching the races. They can do that sh@t at home. Why come to RA to make a bad name for the race fans?
I don't know how the rider faired, don't care either, he's a detriment to our sport and motorcycling in general and our insurance rates show it.
As I said before, this sport will never be a main stream spectator sport. Americans love their sticks, balls, and big cars too much. Our sport takes way too much thought on their part to understand and enjoy. They can't just plop down on their seat cushion, rip open a beer, tune in their radio and watch all the action right in front of them. We enjoy a sport of involvement, a sport of actually having to move about and take in all the nuances, the details to really enjoy it and that's not the Americam way. I don't like it either but that's the way it is.
Sorry. :-[
well, i still think the cost of an AMA ticket is too high as well, and nobody said the AMA was doing there part to promote their races either.
The only ads I ever see are on the SpeedChannel and in the cycle mags--they're targeting the people who already know about these events!!
We need umbrella girls...ok, at least bring back the track announcer. I feel that added the missing element to bridge the gap between CCS and the next step, AMA or whatever. It is my feeling that if you look and act like a professional racer then that will be reflected in your performance. I not saying that appearance is everything but if it adds to your confidence that is half the challenge. As for anyone that needs a little direction in which way to enhance your image I recommend the following companies.
Paint - http://www.alcaldecustoms.com/welcome.html Tim, the one to talk to about custom paint.
Logo, Helmet Design - http://www.airtrix.com Chris Wood did all of mine and also the Bostroms, Etc.
Logo, Decals - www.teamstumpyracing.com Everyone knows Stumpy, fast and affordable
Uniforms - http://grandprixapparel.com/ The same as the Pro Teams use, very high quality, no minimum
Website Idea - http://www.dm8.com/news.htm Dwight included all aspects of what a site should entail
Emblems - http://youremblem.com/ Not really practical for bikes, but an interesting idea
Sponsorship Info - http://www.smsw.com/tools.htm Print out the General Inventory Sheet, great reference tool
Photos - http://sliderphoto.com/ What can I say, the photos speak for themselves
EZ-UP - I found my Kawasaki ones online for $99.00 plus shipping, just spent several hours searching the web though.
Umbrella Girls - http://www.umbrellagirlsusa.com/ ummm well what the heck
If anyone can think of anything that I missed or an item that needs to be addressed let me know.
Quotewell, i still think the cost of an AMA ticket is too high as well, and nobody said the AMA was doing there part to promote their races either.
The only ads I ever see are on the SpeedChannel and in the cycle mags--they're targeting the people who already know about these events!!
Ok, do I have to say this again...
The AMA sanctions the race. The track pays the AMA money to show up, etc. The track is the promoter. They have to promote the event locally, nationally whatever. They provide the purse. Might be a minimum, might be more.
Sure, the AMA does some work for the series, but not for each individual event.
As for ticket prices...what does it cost to get into an NFL game? There are more of those in a season too...
But an AMA event only comes around once a year in a locale. It's kind of exclusive, so the prices should have something to do with the fair market.
I do take some exeption to the crew memebers having to pay such high prices though. After all, the promoter has paid for the event, etc. The crew is also part of the show.
A Super Pass for Elkhart is about $100 for the AMA races, good Thurs-Sunday. I see that as a bargain for that access. I listen to guys where I work talk Nascar, how they pay $80 a head to get in, and another $40 per head to get pit access. $120 per day?!
Last night NPR had a documentary style program about NASCAR. Lots of interviews with racers, fans, and promoters. The common thread was talk about sponsors. The promoters are constantly seeking them out. The racers, of course, are always advertising them. However, most importantly, the fans are FIERCELY LOYAL to their cars'/racers' sponsors. One guy remembered the exact months and years his car switched sponsors from Folgers to Maxwell House, and changed his purchasing habits accordingly. Their brand loyalty is extreme and companies see this.
QuoteMotorcycle roadracing will never in this country reach the heights it does in Europe or the Orient. People over there are raised riding bikes and continue to in large numbers throughout their lives. We as kids may ride for awhile (mostly on dirt bikes) or have a fling with a bike in high school then they are sold off to buy the life long dream of a bigger, better car.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the huge crowds of spectators because it's not going to happen. Period. Get over it and ride your bike. ;D ;D
I was asked by a potential sponsor about how large the crowds are and how much TV time races get. I guess he watches the AMA events on Speed. He is still going to help this season, but he did say that there would be a lot more help if there was some way to prove he was spending money on advertising. :-/ I asked how much more and he said "all more"... he would pick up the whole season if there were more spectators. Hell I would be excited if there were any at all. :P