Hello all
i am new to this board an would like to ask you guys a few questions. We are presently racing with WERA an they just hit us with the mandatory transponders, they are charging us $260 ea until march then they are $330 after that, or you can rent them for $40 per event, then to top it all off they have raised the price of entry fees another $10
So here are my questions
1, tech....is it comparable to wera
2, payout an contegency programs,,,rate them
3, bike counts, are they decent
4, do you feel you are getting a good bang for your buck
5 if you have raced both what do you like dislike about each
thanks for helping me make my descion for next year
bobo
Here are a few answers that I know.
1) Tech is about the same except for supersport. CCS is a little more relaxed and you don't have to safety wire your header bolts.
2) Contingency.... If you qualify they're good.
3) Bike counts depend on your region and class. The Midwest has a good turn out of riders.
4) Bang for the buck.... Compared to what? The most enjoyable time at the track is after the races are done when everyone is sitting around the grill and shooting the sh#t.
5) Never races both so I can't answer that one.
Dawn :)
I was gonna do a few races with WERA this year, but screw that. After I found out how much they were gonna hit me with excess fees.
So I'll just go to the Friday practice get my time in on the tracks I need to, like Barbers and then get ready for the CCS races.
WERA just shot themselves in the foot if you ask me.
996
tha is a great answerto bang for the buck, that is whats its all about.
duc748
you are right, the exssive fees are getting outa hand, i know of at least 5 people that have had enough
Bobo -- if you are in the SE region -- check out the thread about the SE region banquet.
wera tech:
it is much more restrict than ccs tech. at least here in MA/SE. I have passed CCS tech with ONLY the oil stuff safetywire. So that means no axles, no brake caliper wire. I don't see it in the rule book either.
For WERA, even R6's are required to have lower removed when going to tech.
as for header bolts, WERA has stopped requiring they to be wired in 2004
Fees:
WERA transponder fees are going to be a killer. I am not going to buy one to do 3 weekends a season, but renting at $40 a pop seems pretty out of the question too :-/
The transmitter fees are basically similar to what SCCA does. Guess they must have lost too many of them to make it work.
Personally, I saw track insurance rates go up another 10% for 2004. That's almost a doubling of cost since 2000. The fees ain't gonna go down until the trial lawyers are put in their place. (Health care, tire costs, loss of jobs to over seas markets that don't have such excessive litigation...where do want to stop?)
I'm not political...
But John Edwards made his money as a trial lawyer, then turned to politics.
Dave, don't get me started. The American Bar Association needs to raise the bar, with them being in control of all 3 branches of gov't, but that's another topic. WERA events in the Mid atlantic are very similar. Mostly the same guys. But a little more relaxed and fun with CCS.
In 83 at Road Atlanta, WERA had a National, the starter had on pink pants and a pok-adot white and yellow shirt and a wide white belt, that was enough to guide me in the right direction.
Seems like CCS is at least trying to keep cost down somewhat.
Almost time to get Political.
H. #296am Fl.
LOL....I also will be one giving CCS a try this year because of the new Wera fees....see you guys at the track ;D
CCS can keeps insurance costs a bit more reasonable because of Clear Channel Entertainment's ability to buy insurance globally for all it it's stuff. CCS has secondary medical also. I know CRA doesn't...others, I can't say.
how much is the cost of the liscense with CCS....
$110 if purchased prior to July.
So here are my questions
1, tech....is it comparable to wera
Sort of some things are not required like things you will be messing with before going to race (axles, brakes etc) if those things are required then you are allowed to remove them to change tires then you should have to retech right? Side covers are required on some current race bikes that have been shown to lose oil when hitting the ground, WERA no longer requires them.
2, payout an contegency programs,,,rate them
Contingency over 11 million last year offered, GT ($500) and ULGP($1000) purses
3, bike counts, are they decent
Kevin answered this in another thread CCS entries ave 640 Wera 420 so you should see more depending on track/weekend
4, do you feel you are getting a good bang for your buck
well I am biased but of course
5 if you have raced both what do you like dislike about each
WERA gridding by points (if in for a class championship)
CCS gridding by entry for hit or miss racing (I do more of this now so I like it better)
WERA tech seems to be all over region to region race to race on what is required tech seems fit more as one size fits all
CCS tech tailors to specfic bike requirements no dropping belly pan unless THAT bike needs it, no steering damper as many bikes do not need them and having one does not insure that it works.
WERA entry fee is higher, and you have to buy your own ~$350 transponders
CCS transponder is included in entry fee which is less.
thanks for helping me make my descion for next year
bobo
Quote
no steering damper as many bikes do not need them and having one does not insure that it works.
I thought a steering damper was required for all bikes in CCS. I thought I saw that in the CCS rulebook.
Checked last year. I could not find steering damper being required.
WERA license is $100 and is good for one year from date of purchase.
2004 race fees (post entry) are 70,50,40 from there. This is only a $5 increase since last year. Not $10 as stated earlier. Seems like thats what I paid CCS at Barber in '03.
Transponders are $260 for purchase.(not that I really want to spend that,but I will) WERA doesn't have pockets like Clear Channel behind them to drop $500k or more to supply them. If you plan to only run a couple WERA rounds and don't want to rent for $40, don't run then. If you plan on a full series/multiple seasons, it's not too big a deal really when you consider you can sell it in a year or two if you quit racing or something, for a couple hundred bucks. SCCA use the same ones and also BUY their own.
For tech comparisons, I would rather tech people be more thorough. If you are to lazy to remove a bellypan or do some safety wiring..maybe consider something else. This stuff is dangerous enough without worrying about someone's POS dropping parts and bolts at 140mph.
People are too spoiled these days. Folks will drop big $$ on warmers, ti and carbon parts, or other stuff they don't really need.. Seems nobody remembers the "old days" of racing..and I'm only talking 8-10 years ago...Just 2cents that will probably draw flak..Oh well!
Agreed... Safety Wiring is easy and can save alot of trouble. Instead of spending all that time on a "perfect sticker job" Wire your header bolts ;)
Although not as dangerous as a Drain plug loose, A loud header could "spend Dollars" as Keith Code would say, and take your mind off racing.
StUmPy
Hey Super Dave did you read Keith's books?? ;D ;D ;)
RE transponders (er, transmitters ???), the $300 or so isn't that big a deal if you're going to race their full schedule. Plus, I checked out the website for the company that is furnishing those tranismitters, and if I read it correctly, the transmitter company provides *real time* access to lap times, AND downloadable laptime summaries from their website.
In the scheme of my racing budget, $300 is a set of tires - ie, not much at all. And I spent nearly that on my UltraLap, which I then went and destroyed in a crash. These transponders could be used as a replacement for the laptimer if you were really desparate. For all the whining people are doing about the transponder, you'd think the thing cost a couple g's.
QuoteIn the scheme of my racing budget, $300 is a set of tires - ie, not much at all. And I spent nearly that on my UltraLap, which I then went and destroyed in a crash. These transponders could be used as a replacement for the laptimer if you were really desparate. For all the whining people are doing about the transponder, you'd think the thing cost a couple g's.
This debate will never end but I dont think its whining. What is more important to MOST racers, a set of tires or a transponder. Regardless of what some may think, the majority of racers are on a strict budget. Transponders are more of a luxury if nothing else. Laptimers are of more use to an individual as he/she can receive the data during a lap and can use it at any track, any time, not just for one association with one type of system that another association may not use.
All that being said, the luxury of having a transponder IS pretty cool 8)
QuoteI thought a steering damper was required for all bikes in CCS. I thought I saw that in the CCS rulebook.
nope.. not required. I have seen to accidents DUE to steering dampers that had a bolt come loose, then not allow the bars to be turned in one direction or the other. I however swear by them and would not consider racing without one..
in defence of the WERA transponder thing.. they CAN be resold and reused after your done racing.. im sure they will hold a good value as it's either buy new or save a few bucks and get one in the classifieds.
We are not yet using them as the problems appear to be more trouble than they are worth, but once the bugs are worked out im sure CCS will go with them as well. THen what.. gonna quit racing altogether? ;)
I suppose that if you crash and destroy it, you have to buy another.
For what its worth they are having the racers mount their transponders on the forks. Its supposed to keep them from being damaged in all but the worst crashes.
Quotein defence of the WERA transponder thing.. they CAN be resold and reused after your done racing.. im sure they will hold a good value as it's either buy new or save a few bucks and get one in the classifieds.
We are not yet using them as the problems appear to be more trouble than they are worth, but once the bugs are worked out im sure CCS will go with them as well. THen what.. gonna quit racing altogether? ;)
I don't know what you mean? transponders have been in use in most CCS regions for most of the year, and is covered in your entry fees. you guys dont use it in FL? you must used it at the ROC
QuoteFor what its worth they are having the racers mount their transponders on the forks. Its supposed to keep them from being damaged in all but the worst crashes.
some how I kill my forks/fender everytime I crash ;D
Thanks for all the great replys. i dont think i will renew my wera licences next year. i know of 6 other people that feel the same way about it. We are looking forwar to racing with you guys in the ma an se regions this year, what can we expect for camping an gate fees.
thanks
bobo
I imagine we'll see a few ex-WERA riders in CCS Midwest this year since they were dumped by Putnam Park.
WERA's North Central region schedule now has only two weekends in Michigan (Grattan). The rest of the schedule is in PA and OH.
QuoteI suppose that if you crash and destroy it, you have to buy another.
yep!
QuoteI don't know what you mean? transponders have been in use in most CCS regions for most of the year, and is covered in your entry fees. you guys dont use it in FL? you must used it at the ROC
Used at the ROC, yes.. but not FL region. We tried a couple times but they dont work correctly and Henry and CO. had to revert back to manual scoring for every race at Homestead in Dec. when trying them out...
QuoteUsed at the ROC, yes.. but not FL region. We tried a couple times but they dont work correctly and Henry and CO. had to revert back to manual scoring for every race at Homestead in Dec. when trying them out...
they had some problem with the loop at summit too. I think its how they position/lay the signal wire. I am sure they will figure out sooner or later. Still I like the transponder to be covered by entry fees. The fees are going to go up anyway, might as well have some extra benefit
QuotePeople are too spoiled these days. Folks will drop big $$ on warmers, ti and carbon parts, or other stuff they don't really need.. Seems nobody remembers the "old days" of racing..and I'm only talking 8-10 years ago...Just 2cents that will probably draw flak..Oh well!
Totally, agreed. It took me until 1999 to get a trailer (5x8), and I started racing AMA Pro road races in 1989. Yet, I see amateurs show up with tandem axle trailers...LOL!
QuoteHey Super Dave did you read Keith's books?? ;D ;D ;)
I've got first editions. I didn't have me to ask questions when I started this, or continued this. The books didn't help clarify much, but it give me an example of how Dianetics works...
QuoteFor what its worth they are having the racers mount their transponders on the forks. Its supposed to keep them from being damaged in all but the worst crashes.
But that adds to unsprung weight.
And who's they?
QuoteI don't know what you mean? transponders have been in use in most CCS regions for most of the year, and is covered in your entry fees. you guys dont use it in FL? you must used it at the ROC
But the Florida region is not owned by CCS. So, things can be a bit different there.
MW/GP/GL...CCS owns these regions.
camping is good at all tracks EXCEPT JENNINGS. It is ran by the FL region, and because of alot of things growing legs you are not allowed to camp inside the gates.
I raced both last year and noticed that WERA is a more organised, and better ran org., BUT CCS has much better riders and everyone has a much better attitude about things. The way I see, its six of one and half a dozen of the other. If you are going to run Super Sport, than you want to go with CCS. The rules are more open. The up is that CCS doesnt race Talladega or Nashville, the down is CCS doesnt race Road Atlanta.
I live in TN (thats the center of the south), and it takes me about 5-9 hours to get to everytrack except Barber.
QuoteBut that adds to unsprung weight.
And who's they?
From Mongo on the WERA Board:
"The mounting position will NOT be on the tailsection. We are going with a front fork mounting to increase the accuracy of the system. We will have foam forms available to help mount the transponder bracket to the fork leg. They will need to be on the left fork leg on ALL machines, this will speed up everyone getting checked prior to going on track. The lower fork tube should alos be a much safer position although we have never had one destroyed in a crash, only when kicked off"
The transponder thread over threre:
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41096
I practically live on a computer so I lurk over there off and on as well.
So, how does that work with an upsidedown fork as the leg is the upper?
I'd wonder if the heat from the brake caliper would heat soak the transmitter.
QuoteI thought a steering damper was required for all bikes in CCS. I thought I saw that in the CCS rulebook.
Nope you do not HAVE to have one it says nothign about it in the rule book not that i can find anyway
Dave, the AMB units are small and will fit on USD's at the caliper hanger. I believe they will be mounted(recommended)with a foam block between the trans bracket and the actual fork material. This should eliminate hi-freq vibration and eliminate any heat sink effect...Plus they will be out in a bit of a breeze! ;D
QuoteThis should eliminate hi-freq vibration and eliminate any heat sink effect...Plus they will be out in a bit of a breeze! ;D
I don't know. Air cooling isn't very good. That's why regulators are mounted to something solid. I still think there will be a lot of heat transfer. Brakes are too hot to hold onto after racing, so you know that they are more than 140 degrees plus, but I'd bet more.
Hmmm....
i have not raced wera so i dont know about them, but ill add my 2 cents here..
tech should be strict.. why, because its our asses out there they are trying to protect.. so bring on strict tech. if your bike isnt wired up properly you dont belong on the track. side covers should not be an option, they should be mandatory (ccs knows which bikes need them and which dont). nothing worse than getting ready for your race only to have the race before red flagged for oil on the track , and having to wait forever for the oil to get cleaned up. ccs contingency is great as long as you are good enough to earn it. i cant say anything bad about wera, but i love ccs/lrrs.
Buying a transponder is a joke!! Transponders are not just a luxury. Sure they give you all kinds of fluff like lap times and fastest lap (white-liars hate this) but they actually save the club money too. If you have a working and tested transpnder system, you can eliminate most human scorers, while keeping one or two per race as a backup (less moeny paid to workers), they also can speed up the results posting (happy racers=more money) and use less people in the scoring room (more money not spent again). So, for WERA to save all this money AND charge the racers another $300 is baffling to me.
As far as tech goes, wiring a brake caliper is silly. The weak link in a caliper is the mounting tabs and the bolt- if either break loose no safety wire will help, and in over twenty years of doing this thing I have never seen a caliper fall off (or headers, or fork oil bolts for you vintage folks or brake bleeders etc). I think it is nice that CCS treats all racers like professionals that know how to and will have the sense to bring a decent bike to the track (before someone say is there is always a exception).
CCS has the broadest base of racing- with a CCS liscence you can race all over the 48 United States- no matter where you go you can find CCS within a 12 hour drive (for those of you in Wyoming!).
I am seriously biased here, but as I have said before- I have seen racing from many different angles and organizations and still think that CCS has the best racing, racers and ovberall class.
I so have to disagree with CCS having faster racers than WERA. From working for both organizations in different capacity's I have seen most of it. Not only the west coast. Being from the east coast there are so many crossover riders that race both that you can not say one set of riders are better and faster than the other.
Just thought i'd through my .02 around. Not that it really matters. Just tired of the "our guys are faster than your guys crap"
Hope things are well Corey. Tell your mom, dad and Adrianne Stacey says HI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QuoteI so have to disagree with CCS having faster racers than WERA. From working for both organizations in different capacity's I have seen most of it. Not only the west coast. Being from the east coast there are so many crossover riders that race both that you can not say one set of riders are better and faster than the other.
Just thought i'd through my .02 around. Not that it really matters. Just tired of the "our guys are faster than your guys crap"
Hope things are well Corey. Tell your mom, dad and Adrianne Stacey says HI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wasnt just yesterday there was a discussion that wera guys are faster than ccs guys?it all depends on whos doing the talking
Corey,
A very well kown AMA mechanic had a front brake caliper fall off at a trackday at willow springs years ago... Not a good thing
Saftey wire shows that it was tightened, not really there to hold the part on...
That being said.. I believe that only the oil and filter need to be wired, but now I must drill and wire the whole damn bike because we are going to race some WERA events... Oh well , rules is rules! LOL
Saftey wire doesnt work though, remember AMA at Mid Ohio?
QuoteI so have to disagree with CCS having faster racers than WERA. From working for both organizations in different capacity's I have seen most of it. Not only the west coast. Being from the east coast there are so many crossover riders that race both that you can not say one set of riders are better and faster than the other.
I'm in total agreement Stacey (Hi!;D). Riders are fast, not organizations.
And I have seen two brake calipers fall off.
The worst part of that is that the caliper will pretty much work, mostly, until the bolts completely fall out. Then the caliper can get ripped off and then there is no brake pressure for anything.
Hey Dave, How are you? I haven't talked to you in ages. I'm doing well. Moving back to Virginia in about a week or so. But i'm sure i'll see you at an AMA race on the east coast this year.
Stacey
I have to disagree. CCS riders are clearly the fastest and anyone who doesn't agree with me is mistaken! What's wrong with you people, this is the CCS web site! ::)
HD
QuoteI What's wrong with you people, this is the CCS web site! ::)
HD
Unofficial website...
8)
QuoteHey Dave, How are you? I haven't talked to you in ages. I'm doing well. Moving back to Virginia in about a week or so. But i'm sure i'll see you at an AMA race on the east coast this year.
Stacey
I should be at the FUSA race at VIR getting my A$$ handed to myself...unless I can take off more of Scott Greenwoods fingers before the race start....
;D
You gonna make it out to that...or?
Hey Henry, sorry I missed you this year here.
Dave, I hope to make if down there for that weekend. That is if they let me in...... ;)
It will be good to see you. It has been way too long.
I think the WERA Novice classes might be tougher than the CCS Am. classes because they have much tougher standards for getting bumped to expert. WERA and CCS should get together and use the same criteria.
This site is CCS official enough for me! :D And as for as tough standards for Amateurs going to Expert, come down to Florida and I'll show you what tough is! :-*
HD
Sorry for the interruption, but HDpromos, can you check your PMs. Can you send me some info about the Jennings schedules and how they're run.
OK.. now back to your regularily scheduled debate already in progress...
I took WERA this year because of the schedule. If I dont like it, I will sell the transponder and do CCS again in 04. I have heard many racers biootch about CCS at races and the same with WERA guys complain about WERA. I added the entry fees up and pre-entry with WERA will come to $20 cheaper than pre-entry with CCS for 4 races (3 sprints and 1 Solo 20). $20 is $20 and can cover gate fees, beer, food, strip club..whatever. I just liked the WERA schedule fitting better into my real work schedule so I am trying it in 04. Came to about 50 hrs less less leave I woulda had to take doing WERA vs. CCS. I liked CCS and am sure I will like WERA. So long as my arse is on that machine I am happy.
QuoteSo, how does that work with an upsidedown fork as the leg is the upper?
I'd wonder if the heat from the brake caliper would heat soak the transmitter.
They'll be mounted higher up near the fairing. Plenty of room on all the forks I've looked at.
AMB has run bikes in Europe like this with no known issues due to heat or anything else.
QuoteI have to disagree. CCS riders are clearly the fastest and anyone who doesn't agree with me is mistaken! What's wrong with you people, this is the CCS web site! ::)
HD
Don't make me bring a National back to South Florida Henry :D
Now Sean, that would not be a bad idea unless you enjoy losing money again! :o But I must say I do not regret working on those projects with you guys. They were good shows. ;) It was a shame the weather got us almost everytime.
HD
Yeah, we did have a blast except for the weather, that's the way the game goes some days though.
slightly off topic, but since you guys are talking about transponder location.. at LRRS we mount then on the upper part of the fork just under the top triple and never have any problems. just thought id throw that in for you guys with concerns.
Mongo isn't there a National at Jennings JP, isn't that in florida? Maybe I'll have to get the drill out and win some WERA races at jennings. >:(
QuoteI took WERA this year because of the schedule. If I dont like it, I will sell the transponder and do CCS again in 04. I have heard many racers biootch about CCS at races and the same with WERA guys complain about WERA. I added the entry fees up and pre-entry with WERA will come to $20 cheaper than pre-entry with CCS for 4 races (3 sprints and 1 Solo 20). $20 is $20 and can cover gate fees, beer, food, strip club..whatever. I just liked the WERA schedule fitting better into my real work schedule so I am trying it in 04. Came to about 50 hrs less less leave I woulda had to take doing WERA vs. CCS. I liked CCS and am sure I will like WERA. So long as my arse is on that machine I am happy.
$20 dollars cheaper than CCS. Now for nine ( round #) events thats a $180 savings! Now you only need to come up with $120 more to pay for the transponder! Racers are not good accountants. (Announcers are worse!)
transponder life they say is good for 5 years. $260 divided by 5 = $52.00 a year for the transponder. :)
It does suck you have to buy it but hey, does one really need to run VP fuel in amateur? No, but some do.