I've been going over my new-to-me 2000 SV and I can't believe the subframe, steel with cast steel ends ??? The previous owner layed it down pretty hard on the left side, luckily the sliders saved everything except where the passenger peg mounts got beaten up pretty bad. The sub-frame is bent up and has a crack. I have to pull it, should I repair it and cut off all the un-needed tabs and brackets or make a new one from aluminum? I want to be legal in stock classes, what is the best thing to do? I also thought about pulling it all off and cutting off everything behind the vertical line of the axle, just leave it bare with number plates mounted but no bodywork.
I have an 03. The stock subframe is very heavy. I made my own out of aluminum. If you know how to weld aluminum it is not difficult, just time consuming.
I was planning on doing all the fabricating and taking it to a welder to have him zap it all together. I got a stick welder and a oxy/acy torch but nothing for aluminum.
If I make a custom subframe does that violate the stock frame requirement for stock classes? If no one knows, who can I ask?
Nothing about SUBframes mentioned anywhere in the rules so it legal ;)
I made an aluminum subframe for my wife's MZ, and yes, it is quite time consuming. It would be pretty hard without a TIG nearby, becuase the way I did it I fit up and fixtured everything on the bike and tacked it on the bike, then pulled it off for the full welds. Going in stages, I think I had the thing on and off the bike half a dozen times during the build-up.
-z.
QuoteI made an aluminum subframe for my wife's MZ, and yes, it is quite time consuming. It would be pretty hard without a TIG nearby, becuase the way I did it I fit up and fixtured everything on the bike and tacked it on the bike, then pulled it off for the full welds. Going in stages, I think I had the thing on and off the bike half a dozen times during the build-up.
-z.
Here's how Zac did it (article on p. 6-7):
http://members.cox.net/strikeracing/bullseye03/bullseye_sept03.pdf
The SV subframe is pretty simple, just 4 ptraight pieces of rectangular tubing, only 2 simple bends. I weighed the entire setup on my bathroom scale, it came to 9.5 pounds. I ordered 8 feet of 3/4" X 3/4" square bar which weighs 5 pounds if I use it all (stock subframe uses 6.5')... I plan to vice-grip it all together with a piece of .100" thick aluminum diamond plate on top for a seat and have the local shop weld it all together. I'll leave a small piece of the diamond plate on the back for the regulator/rectifier, ECU and rear brake master cylinder. I'm also going to get rid of the big-chunk-O'-steel gas tank mount. I just ordered a hole bunch of aluminum and can't wait... I'm also going to make some custom rear-sets and misc bracketry...
One thing that I need to mention about the MZ subframe is that it snapped after a few races. The designer neglected to account for fatigue of the material due to vibration environments that the subframe experiences. He went back and added the appropriate reinforcement. So the subframe design is now on Rev. A.
The SV probably doesn't vibrate as bad as the MZ, but little stuff like this can crop up when going to different materials.
Yeah, we had a little low-cycle fatigue problem. We used the stock MZ oil tank, which sits up under the tailsection. The oil tank was basically cantilevered off the back of the subframe, and had a bit of displacement under vibe, which broke the subframe just to the rear of where it was triangulated at the rear seat mount. A couple of additional tubes to triangulate the rear oil tank mount, which stiffened up the structure and eliminated the excessive displacement, and it's good to go.
-z.
You may want to make at least 2 subframes. If you have one, you are bound to destroy it. If you have 2, you will never need the second one ;)
Making a jig can be easier than using the bike. I used my bike as the jig for the 2 I have made. I plan to use the stock subframe to make a jig for any future subframes I may have to make.
I'm still trying to figure out how I can make a sub-frame that has no welds but bolts together. When I crash I can just cut, drill and bolt on another piece and it's done! I'm not 100% confident that it wouldn't crack along the bolt holes though so I'll have it welded...
Depending on how much the welder charges I may make a few to start putting on Ebay. I'd like to start making my own belly pans, sub-frames and rear-sets. It would be nice if I could actually get some of my money back out of this sport, god knows I'm not getting it out of contingencies 8)
Sounds like a lot of time and money being wasted! Go out and ride a dirt bike or cardio train, something that will actually make you faster.
QuoteSounds like a lot of time and money being wasted! Go out and ride a dirt bike or cardio train, something that will actually make you faster.
LOL, my thoughts exactly.
Even if you could drop 30# off the bike, it probably wouldn't substantially change your lap times.
But as long as you're having fun....
;D
My stock subframe is bent & cracked (that's the main reason I got the bike so cheap). To buy all the aluminum I need to make the new subframe, seat and several pairs of rear sets cost me $70 (including shipping). I already have metal working tools, no wife, no kids = lots of free time 8)
It'll be nice to save 5-10lbs but it'll save me a few hundred bucks that I can put into my suspension. Besides I like to build stuff...
Yeah, I like to build stuff too.
And we also have to remember that 10 lbs makes a much bigger difference on a 55 HP MZ than it does on a 140 HP liter bike. The traction limited 1k isn't going to accelerate any faster if 10 lbs is taken off, but the power limited light weight bike will pick up a few percent in power/weight, corresponding to a little more acceleration.
We'll see, for the FUSA Thunderbike race it looks like I'll have to ADD weight to my CR500 to meet 3.8 lbs/HP. I'll see if it makes any difference from my CCS races to the FUSA race.
-z.
Seems to make a bit of difference to Ed Key, ask Mark Junge.
It is fun to do. If you have the talent, access to equipment (mill, lathe, welder, laser, band saw, shear, brake), then why not?
My subframe cost about $15 in material. I could find no source for a subframe other than the stck one. So I made one. Weighs less than 2 lbs. It is fun to look at the bike and replace steel parts with aluminum parts, especially unsprung parts such as wheel spacers.
Jason, I will be sure to put on all the steel parts for your stints in the TC races ;)
QuoteSeems to make a bit of difference to Ed Key, ask Mark Junge.
It is fun to do. If you have the talent, access to equipment (mill, lathe, welder, laser, band saw, shear, brake), then why not?
LOL, if you have fun doing it and have the stuff, do it...I agree.
Will the subframe help Ed Key, a tiny amount. The whole package plays the biggest in the result. And Ed is very good with sorting his suspension and riding.
But the matter still stands that given chassis of similar quality and set up, one with a substantially different power to weight ratio will only go a little faster...a little. Larry Denning probably weighs similar to me. So, his R6 would have a weight vs power ratio of about 5:1. His R1 with 30 more HP would be at about 3.9:1. For his R6 to have a similar ratio, it would need to loose almost 120 pounds...The difference in lap times at Blackhawk was .75 of a second.
Still got to have fun.
;D
Really not comparing weight ratios when comparing an R1 to an R6. The R1 has more power than it can use. Compare a 300 lb R6 to a 380 lb R6. If the 300 lb R6 were .75 seconds per lap faster I would call that substantial. Weight must be an issue or why bother having weight limits in FUSA races? It is not cost savings, because if there is no real gain in less weight then why would I care if a competitor was much lighter. Does the R6 come stock with a steel subframe? 2 equal riders on equal bikes, I one is made lighter, it will have an advantage. In club level racing it is much more the rider than the equipment.
Ed Key admitted at RA that he beat Mark Junge because his bike had a better power to weight ratio, as Ed said, he out rode Mark on the straights. Mark's bike was WERA legal. For Ed it is the entire package. He has much more than just an aluminum subframe. He has removed weight where ever possible. Outside of the engine, there are not many steel parts on his bike. If a bike loses 10% of its weight, it gains at least 10% in acceleration. Removing rotating mass gives a larger boost. Then there is the issue of drag. Do race bikes really need to have seals on the wheels? What is the drag of a sealed bearing vs a shielded bearing vs a ceramic bearing?
I enjoy building bikes as much as I enjoy riding them. I used to do it for a living. Some of the changes I make are for performance gains, some to ease maintenance (such as wheel changes, I am woking on a system to keep the rear brake carrier on the swingarm, cost about $10, time about 15 to 30 minutes), and increase reliability. The thinking and building involved with improving the design is what I enjoy. I have the access to the equipment, the ability to use them, the ability to come up with the ideas, the knowledge of materials (along with the background to ask the proper questions if I need more info) to be able to do it, so why not? Riders on more stock bikes may beat me, but so what. I have accomplished all my racing goals. I retired. I came out of retirement when Rick asked me if I would help him teach riding schools. I have no secrets. I will share all the information I have gained in 20+ years of racing to help others reach their goals, regardless of whether they are my direct competitor or not, whether they are a Learning Curves graduate or not. My last crash seems to have taken the edge off, I am not sure I am the racer I was in 1999. But getting knocked out and recieving mouth to mouth may do that to a person. So I race for fun, both setting up the bike and the actual riding. Yes I still enjoy to finish well, but I am not sure how hard I am willing to push to do so.
QuoteWeight must be an issue or why bother having weight limits in FUSA races?
To have an equal playing field.
But it really isn't. I weigh more than Matt Wait and Eric Wood. The only way to do it properly would be to do it with a combined rider/bike weigh in.
QuoteI one is made lighter, it will have an advantage. In club level racing it is much more the rider than the equipment.
Right on both sides. You really have to go a long way to where it is not the rider that is the deciding factor. And even then...
Certainly a weight advantage is an advantage, but will it result in a reasonable change in lap times?
QuoteEd Key admitted at RA that he beat Mark Junge because his bike had a better power to weight ratio, as Ed said, he out rode Mark on the straights.
And can Ed give blood? I mean, does he weigh enough that the Red Cross will allow him to give blood? Mark's about my size, so Ed might also have an extraordinary advantage on top of everything he's worked on.
QuoteI enjoy building bikes as much as I enjoy riding them... I have the access to the equipment, the ability to use them, the ability to come up with the ideas, the knowledge of materials (along with the background to ask the proper questions if I need more info) to be able to do it, so why not?...So I race for fun, both setting up the bike and the actual riding. Yes I still enjoy to finish well, but I am not sure how hard I am willing to push to do so.
I never had access to much more equipment than a drill. Didn't have the back ground in it, myself. Not that I wouldn't like to do more stuff.
But from my first racing career so many years ago, I learned that my work on weight savings had no discernable effect on my lap times. Even my personal weight had no real effect.
Lot of those clues came from working with Dale Quarterley. And he weighed about 200#, was 6'3", and still won an AMA National and was consistently up front.
It always came back to the rider and the set up.
I'm done...
;D
I blame D'Amico for getting me going...
QuoteSounds like a lot of time and money being wasted! Go out and ride a dirt bike or cardio train, something that will actually make you faster.
If I run this bike with the bare subframe and number plates but no body work will I get any hassle at tech? I saw a couple guys riding like this but I don't remember what bikes or what classes...
I don't see any point in having rear body work except for cosmetics and it's a pain to fix after I crash it.
Now that's a good question.
Seems like if the bike was produced with a fairing, it's supposed to have it, unless it's damaged.....?
Seat sections can be modified to accept number plates.
I'm not sure, Don...
So weight limits are needed to keep things fair but weight loss does nothing measureable in lap times?
Any difference in lap time amy be small, but adds up over time. A tenth of a second adds up over a 8 lap race. Also, it is less work to ride a lighter bike. How much does race gas affect your lap time?
I recall Vance and Hines Yamaha testing carbon fiber wheels when they first came out. Jamie James did the testing. It was a double blind test - jamie did not know ehich wheels were on the bike, magnesium or carbon fiber. jamie later admitted it was very easy to tell the difference. His lap times averaged about 1.5 s faster with the only change being the wheels. The AMA immediately banned CF wheels.
If you want weight to make a measureable difference you must go after every part that is easy to change or eliminate, especially those that can be made from aluminum. It is not really expensive, but takes some time and access to some equipment. You can actually do quite a bit with a drill, a vice, a hammer and a hacksaw. Ed Key only has a lathe and some hand tools to work with and he has done quite a bit.
QuoteIf I run this bike with the bare subframe and number plates but no body work will I get any hassle at tech? I saw a couple guys riding like this but I don't remember what bikes or what classes...
I don't see any point in having rear body work except for cosmetics and it's a pain to fix after I crash it.
Nothing in the rules requires bodywork...
5.2.2 Neat and Clean. Motorcycles that are dirty or show potentially dangerous bodywork damage will not be approved.
5.2.11 Fairings must be mounted in at least three locations. The front wheel must be clearly visible from both sides except
for the portion covered by the fender. The rider must be visible from the side and above, while in a normal riding
position, and transparent material may not be used to allow for such visibility.
6.1.2C Any fairing may be used provided it is made of plastic, fiberglass or carbon fiber.
The way I read that is anything goes as long as it's not dangerous and not a dustbin. If you have a rear subframe with no pointy parts or sharp edges, that should be legal.
-z.
From personal experience if anyone was trying to be as competitive as possible with a Y2K SV, they would sell it and buy a 2003/2004 model! I don't think a lightened rear subframe +/- a fairing is going to compare to the apparent HP increase in the new models!
I guess you have never raced against Ed Key. He has 1999 SV650 SS bike that weighs in at close to 300lbs. Ed weighs about 130lb. He has no intention of updating, said the extra couple hp is not worth it.
If I were going to do any motor mods I'd do the 03 intake cam + 00 intake in the exhaust side mod... I've promised myself I won't mess with this motor so maybe next season ;)
Between my exhaust (full yosh RS3) and jets I'm probably close to stock 03+ output anyway.
I'm sorry...most of the SVs that I race against are SS legal. The 2003 model absolutely ran away from everyone on their non-injetced models here in the SW. I know of quite a few adhering to SS rules that are selling their "old" SVs just to buy new ones.
Ed Key's bike is SS legal. Thats the interesting part.
interesting as in ...you would love a tear down?
No, not at all. I know Ed's bike is legal. I've heard some good stories about him following rules.
Interesting in the fact that he followed the SS rules to the letter, and still got the bike down to that weight. Me and Ed have talked about some of the things he's done to the bike.
CCS rules are designed to be easily enforced, from what I can tell. And this is good. Not many people are whining about SS legality. It's pretty plain to tell as far as chassis stuff. Anything not in the rulebook is fair game. Ed took advantage of that. He's put a LOT of time into that bike.
One story I heard (I *THINK* this was Ed) was that he ran 2 out of 3 rings on pistons on an AMA Pro Thunder bike. Rule said you had to have all the stock motor parts. So, after a partial teardown, the inspector said, "Look Ed, your bike isn't legal. You'll have to be DQ'd as you only have 2 piston rings on the pistons."
"Check the oil pan."
And what do you think was there? 2 piston rings. And whattya know, the next year, the rule was changed to say that stock motor parts had to remain in stock locations.
:D
Ed is a very clever guy, he has been around for a while.
Anything in the rule book that is not listed as"must reamin as produced" can be modified. Ed has replaced most of the steel parts (outside of the engine) with aluminum or titanium.
QuoteOne story I heard ...
"Check the oil pan."
Wasn't Ed. I told him about it. It was done by a well known builder/tuner of AMA Supersport/Superstock bikes.
But, Ed rides the wheels off his bike, and he is focused completely on set up...that is what makes him such a hard competitor.
Ah. Thanx for the correction, Dave. I didn't think it was Ed, either, but when I told this story to someone else, Jen claimed to be pretty sure it was Ed. I guess I shouldn't believe everything she says, eh? ;)
QuoteI have an 03. The stock subframe is very heavy. I made my own out of aluminum. If you know how to weld aluminum it is not difficult, just time consuming.
Hey Brian - check your instant messages - you have one...