Is there 1?
I think they are gonna have it at VIR next year, like they have the last couple of years. By the look of the schedule for SE next year, there probably won't be a SE region anymore after 2004. Out of a 10 race weekend schedule ... 4 of them are in Florida and 1 in Alabama ( that one is OK though, but sucks when they combine it with 3 other regions). CCS puts 3 races in Jennings FL and not even one at CMP. CMP is a true SouthEast track. With the improvements made there in the last 2 years it is really a nice place to race. I just don't get it. :-/
Face it. The SouthEast region is a dying region in CCS. Sad to see. :-/
Trey, whatca talkin' about?
3 races @VIR, 2 @RRR, and 1@Barber.
That's 6 SE region races.
Yea, I agree Trey, the SE is the redheaded step child of CCS. ??? CCS really does need to go back to CMP and Jennings GP is not in the SE. :P
T-Bone is correct about the demise of the CCS-SE region.
WERA is the dominant org in the SE region by making fewer mistakes marketing their services to SE region racers but they also seem to be losing ground.
The SE region has an abundance of racers - riders of sport bikes and race tracks. The growth of track days and race schools at every track in the SE region has cut the market share of both WERA and CCS in the SE region.
20 years ago when I started the race orgs were the only way to get on a race track but these days I do more track days than race events.
I'm not unique in this preference many of the racers I know share this pref.
In some regions with only one track and one race org the old formula may still be successful but in the SE region CCS has not matched customer-racer demands and their market share is shrinking.
CCS no longer races at -- Rd Atl, CMP, TGPR and other tracks in the SE region.
CCS no longer offers the 50 miler GTO/GTU races at Roebling and other tracks -- instead they offer the unpopular double race weekend format.
CCS is percieved to be the most expensive option in the SE region and offering less track time than their competitors -- the worst bang for the buck.
CCS SE region officials are percieved to be less capable than WERA officials and this was demonstrated when both orgs ran high attendance races at Barber last season.
CCS SE region races are frequently scheduled the weekend following WERA at the same track. WERA attendance is usually better.
A declining CCS-SE region racer base results in fewer entries at both Daytona events -- the CCS holy grail.
Back in the late 80's when Roger and Peggy Edmondson ran it the CCS SE region dominated the market -- even promoting a winter series at Roebling and hiring Kevin Elliot to run the show. The good old days when CCS-SE region responded to their customer-racer's needs.
QuoteT-Bone is correct about the demise of the CCS-SE region.
WERA is the dominant org in the SE region by making fewer mistakes marketing their services to SE region racers but they also seem to be losing ground.
The SE region has an abundance of racers - riders of sport bikes and race tracks. The growth of track days and race schools at every track in the SE region has cut the market share of both WERA and CCS in the SE region.
20 years ago when I started the race orgs were the only way to get on a race track but these days I do more track days than race events.
I'm not unique in this preference many of the racers I know share this pref.
In some regions with only one track and one race org the old formula may still be successful but in the SE region CCS has not matched customer-racer demands and their market share is shrinking.
CCS no longer races at -- Rd Atl, CMP, TGPR and other tracks in the SE region.
CCS no longer offers the 50 miler GTO/GTU races at Roebling and other tracks -- instead they offer the unpopular double race weekend format.
CCS is percieved to be the most expensive option in the SE region and offering less track time than their competitors -- the worst bang for the buck.
CCS SE region officials are percieved to be less capable than WERA officials and this was demonstrated when both orgs ran high attendance races at Barber last season.
CCS SE region races are frequently scheduled the weekend following WERA at the same track. WERA attendance is usually better.
A declining CCS-SE region racer base results in fewer entries at both Daytona events -- the CCS holy grail.
Back in the late 80's when Roger and Peggy Edmondson ran it the CCS SE region dominated the market -- even promoting a winter series at Roebling and hiring Kevin Elliot to run the show. The good old days when CCS-SE region responded to their customer-racer's needs.
So what shoud we do? Switch to WERA or just ride track days? The WERA SE schedule isnt much better either. :-/
well my input ... i would like to do CMP ..and i still do not know the real reason we do not race Road Atlanta it is not any worse than any other track we race now so why not... i'm not to fond of Tally but i would race there if it was on our schedule ..so CCS ...why not CMP and Rd A?
Thank GOD someone sees it like I do. I though I was the only one there for a while. I still don't know what I am gonna do next year. I renewed my licence for CCs/FUSA. I know I will run the VIR and RRR rounds but the others I don't think so.
Geographically speaking, why don't you think of Jennings as SE. I think it's more SE than VIR. People don't realize it's only 1 mile from Georgia and nobody would argue that Georgia isn't SE.
I say if we are going to have a FL region either let CCS run it or get rid of it.. nothing against the racers ... i love getting beat by you guys at NFMP ..LOL i would be happy if they took the Fl races .. off the SE and put back CMP and RD A
I'm not sure where some of you are getting your information, but perhaps you should go to the source instead of listening to gossip. SE 39 does not know our entry numbers and does not know why things are scheduled as they are. The Southeast reigon is not going away. And as far as CCS being the "most expensive option", that is just not true. WERA's fees are $5 more expensive per class then ours, plus you have to purchase or rent a transponder. Our transponders are included in your race fees.
Hey Tiff .. can you tell me why we will not Race Road Atlanta? and CMP for that matter?
Game Dic -- don't hold your breath getting an answer to why CCS is no longer at Rd Atl.
See me at the track sometime or ask Jennings Operations Manager - Bill Brown - a former employee at Rd Atl.
Tiff K. -- your perspective from the lofty altitude of the Texas Taj Mahal may support your dissmisive comments -- but down here at trackside the facts are sadly different. Proclaiming that we should go to your source, ignore gossip because we don't have your satistics or your knowledge of the schedule is meaningless puffery. Everything posted above by CCS customer-racers is a true report on the condition of the CCS-SE Region.
If CCS is satisfied with their market share in the SE Region then so be it. But if they want to regain their spot as the market leader in the hottest motorcycle racing market then biz as usual needs to change to meet their customer-racer's demands.
Why do I care?
As somebody who bought into Roger Edmondson's vision of CCS back in 83/84, and a license holder since '85 I've paid enough dues to have a vested intrest in the CCS-SE Region.
As somebody (not unique to me) who annually introduces a dozen or more guys to our sport and is disturbed when these converts regularly pick Track Days/Schools and WERA over CCS. See reasons for this in my post above.
This past weekend Jan 24/25 the track days at Jennings had 100+ participants each day and the unique Church of Speed event at No Problem Race Track attracting a lot of participants is proof positive of the potential in the South. These orgs seem to be delivering a product their customers want.
This goes on almost every winter weekend at Southern Tracks -- next weekend Roebling Raceway has two track days scheduled by two different orgs.
Sadly many of these events will be better attended than some CCS-SE Region events.
Tiff -- I would have called you with this but you don't return calls -- so do us CCS-SE Region customer-racers a big favor and sneak a copy of this thread past Buddha and into Mike Kidd's office.
Thanks -- Doug Kidd SE#39
Why is VIR a MA only race this year?
Will Barber be a SE only race?
QuoteWhy is VIR a MA only race this year?
Will Barber be a SE only race?
All three VIRs are mid atlantic/SE combined races this year and the one barber is a MA/SE/GP combined race along with being a FUSA weekend
OK, Great!...
The schedule page just listed MA....
http://www.formulausa.com/schedule.asp
The detail schedule of events does have SE & MA at top....didn't check closely enough.
Hey Doug,
Buddha here, (I just love that name!)
CCS is not at Road Atlanta because Mike Swain would not give us dates for "Sportsman" (read CCS) racing, only Formula USA. And to get a Formula USA date, we must give them all the gate money and pay track rent strickly from entry fees. Sorry, even with a 1000 entry turnout, we the loss would be 4-5 digits.
CMP was voted off the circuit by low turnouts AND a rider survey at the end on the 2002 season. (80% of the SE riders listed it as their least favorite track.) Talk about not giving the customers what they want.
Schedule conflicts with WERA are inevitable. When they have 8 races in the Southeast within a 10 week span, where else can we go? It is unforunate for racers in the Southeast who would like to run CCS, but we are trying not to completely bankrupt them by asking them to run every weekend all summer long. Not all riders have the financial resources you have.
Twin Sprints came about as a way to increase racing opportunities for the riders, while saving on travel expenses. The Savanaha area doesn't have that big of a racer base, so most people have to travel, which means hotel and fuel costs. The Twin Sprint idea was Roger Edmondson's, and I believe it is a fundimentaly sound idea.
For 2004 GT races will return to Roebling, even during the Twin Sprint Weekend. (GTO and GTL on Saturday, GTU on Sunday). With the reduction of classes, the time each day was opened up to allow them to return.
Statistically, CCS holds its own with WERA at tracks we both use. Yes, we track that informtion, and CCS's event average (over 70 sanctioned events) is 660 entries compared to WERA's 420 (at 38 sanctioned events). For more indepth info, please contact me directly Doug.
The bane of all racing is the track day, that is more to blame for the Southeast's demise than the services offered by WERA or CCS. The more riders who go "track riding" instead of racing, the harder it is to keep racing going for everyone.
Good Day.
Well when is the last time you tried to get Road A? maybe he was just in a bad mood?.. do you try every year... and why would he not give CCS dates if WERA has them? and WERA would not do it at a loss so they are making money
Buddha it is!!! ;D
the s.e banquet will be at vir i was told...in referance to the se growing,the only way that is going to happen is if we all get involved...that means talking to street riders and trying to get them off the street and on the track.sport bike sales have doubled in the past few years.i know a bunch of guys that go riding almost every sunday doing 130+ on the street,i'm trying to convince them to try the track where they can have real bragging rights...it's very easy to stand back and throw stones,but that won't change anything.if you have any good ideas please share them with kevin.anytime i have called him he has always had time to here me out.i am by no means saying i agree with everything that he has to say so don't feel i'm kissing his butt.i don't have the answer to what we need to do to increase the grids but believe me when i figure it out kevin will know
ROTFLMAO - nice to see you still like how sanctioning bodies do things Doug. I'm curious, have you ever been happy racing?
What Tiffiney said - you don't seem to have much of a clue on this one. Our ridership in the SE has been growing recently, not dropping. As for the why's of CCS not running some tracks, might want to ask your buddy Roger. He's left a lasting legacy that Kevin can't do much about at this point.
I would like to point out one thing while I'm here - WERA doesn't run twin sprint weekends so our numbers aren't inflated by doubling our sprint races. We also don't have as many combined weekends any longer using the club racers to inflate the Pro/Am grids. But overall Kevin is right, we are pretty equal at a lot of tracks. And I, like him, don't like doing races on the same weekend in the same area but we're both at the mercy of the tracks and the dates they give us.
Bucket of KFC and a bottle of maddog, Banquets at my house dambit...
"Badmonkey"! You missed your calling! You should have been a comedian, as you sure don't know anything about roadracing you fool! ???
HD
QuoteThis past weekend Jan 24/25 the track days at Jennings had 100+ participants each day and the unique Church of Speed event at No Problem Race Track attracting a lot of participants is proof positive of the potential in the South. These orgs seem to be delivering a product their customers want.
There were 90-100 riders at Jennings both days this past weekend. however, its between seasons. many (including myself) were "tunin up" for the upcomming season opening for us here in FL region at HOmestead. As the racing season gets underway, myself and others do few trackdays.
Thanks for responding Kevin -- yeah Buddha, I thought you would enjoy that one. Heck, I can remember back in the day when you could fit in size 36 pants!
Anyway back to the CCS-SE Region's condition -- the return of the GTO-U-L races for 04 is a positive, thanks for that one.
But I'm not keen on the twin sprint concept -- you seem to be racing the same ten guys eight times over two days. I recognize the benefits for some racers and it does inflate your "entries" count while the "head" count is unchanged -- probably increasing gross revenue for that weekend. You know what they say about stats.
Rd Atl is the hub of the SE Region and CCS must get back there or it will remain a fringe player in this region. Heck Kevin -- you used to be able fill the track during Sunday quiet period with a street riders parade. Lots of bike riders in the greater Atl area.
We agree that track days are indeed the bane of race orgs -- but maybe there is a way to include them into a CCS SE-Region race weekend.
Henry"s CCS FL-Region format of practice on Sat and race on Sun could be adopted and the Sat schedule becomes the track day.
This would allow a Sat schedule of alternating groups for Ex, AM and Street riders.
Even if you have to sacrifice the GTO-U-L races to accomodate the Sun sprints the racers can get in some long runs on Sat so it may be acceptable.
The primary benefit would be exposure of the race program to track day riders resulting in more racers for CCS.
Gross revenue could be greater with both racers and track riders paying for their Sat track day to offset reduced race entry revenues.
Maybe this rough suggestion will help you get the SE-Region growing again.
Doug
CCS asks Road Atlanta every year for a date, and sometimes they even call us back to tell us they are booked up.(If CCS was to get to run a sportsman race at Road Atl, it would be fine financially, it is when the event becomes a spectator event that the contract changes and it becomes a loser for CCS.)
So far our experience with LP USA Sport Rider Days has shown that just giving the track day rider a taste isn't enough to get them into racing. 75% of our Sport Riders never intend to race, and a large portion of the remaining 25% only buy a license so as to get to run at track days that require a competition license. We haven't given up on the program, in fact we are using it in some places to make it possible to hold races were there aren't enough entries to make the weekend break even financially. (Entries are entries, no matter where or how we get them, and we need them to keep the series going.)
Quote.(If CCS was to get to run a sportsman race at Road Atl, it would be fine financially, it is when the event becomes a spectator event that the contract changes and it becomes a loser for CCS.)
Well Kevin why not do it like most other tracks and the only people in could be "crew" i'm sure everyone would be fine with that and you said yourself that you could still make money that way... If we had Rd A i would not have to go to Jennings..lol
Personally, I don't see the point of running the GT races and twin sprints in the same weekend. There is no way I am going to go out there and race 30 minutes and 4 sprint races in the same day. Even though I would most likely win at least my entry fee back it isn't worth the cost of physical exertion and tires, especially in Savannah during the summer. Amateurs will probably do it because it's good for track time, but I already know where the track goes and so it has no appeal for me.
QuoteWell Kevin why not do it like most other tracks and the only people in could be "crew" i'm sure everyone would be fine with that and you said yourself that you could still make money that way... If we had Rd A i would not have to go to Jennings..lol
The problem goes back to Road Atl not wanting another sportsman event . (CCS is a sportsman event.) Road Atlanta is looking for more spectator events, that is why the "rider and crew only" won't fly there, because when you do it that way it is a sportsman event and that is not what they are looking for.
QuotePersonally, I don't see the point of running the GT races and twin sprints in the same weekend. There is no way I am going to go out there and race 30 minutes and 4 sprint races in the same day. Even though I would most likely win at least my entry fee back it isn't worth the cost of physical exertion and tires, especially in Savannah during the summer. Amateurs will probably do it because it's good for track time, but I already know where the track goes and so it has no appeal for me.
There is a portion of our racing contingent that perfers the longer event, and we are trying to give them what they are looking for. We also realize it will potentially lower entries in other classes, that is why they will run before lunch, to give some "recovery" time to those who need it, like me... ;D
QuoteThe problem goes back to Road Atl not wanting another sportsman event . (CCS is a sportsman event.) Road Atlanta is looking for more spectator events, that is why the "rider and crew only" won't fly there, because when you do it that way it is a sportsman event and that is not what they are looking for.
Well that sucks :-/
How does WERA get Road Atlanta then?
I believe like some others that there are alot of potential for growth in CCS in the SE if Atlanta was possible. In my area (except for Barber) all other tracks are minimum 8 hr away.
But DUDE- You got Barber! I have not been there _maybe this year (PLEEZE Kevin) -but have seen it on the tube and it just blows every track I have been to away! I guess eight hours is a long way though. But don't forget us West Coasters and Southwest have to drive alot to race, but then the morning commute takes us longer sometimes. By the way, this reply was just a shameless plug to ask Kevin to get me to Barber!
ahh barber aint that big of a deal, i mean fast changing elevation blind turns, nice traightaways, great top, unreal paddock tears, can see the whole track from viewing points, beautiful museum.......but dont worry bro, your not missing much
;-) hehehehehehe
Quote"Badmonkey"! You missed your calling! You should have been a comedian, as you sure don't know anything about roadracing you fool! ???
HD
your right, I should take your lead and run my own region...Oh but that takes no brains and money ,Oh well I'll let you fill those clown shows Mr. Degouge... ;D
Well good morning "Monkeyboy"! You sound jealous and it's quite obvious that you have neither the brains or funds to run anything. As far as clowns go, I'd say you're a good candidate. Just look at yourself! ;D
HD
QuoteCCS asks Road Atlanta every year for a date, and sometimes they even call us back to tell us they are booked up.(If CCS was to get to run a sportsman race at Road Atl, it would be fine financially, it is when the event becomes a spectator event that the contract changes and it becomes a loser for CCS.)
So far our experience with LP USA Sport Rider Days has shown that just giving the track day rider a taste isn't enough to get them into racing. 75% of our Sport Riders never intend to race, and a large portion of the remaining 25% only buy a license so as to get to run at track days that require a competition license. We haven't given up on the program, in fact we are using it in some places to make it possible to hold races were there aren't enough entries to make the weekend break even financially. (Entries are entries, no matter where or how we get them, and we need them to keep the series going.)
BS, how does NESBA get a weekend date, may 22-23 and you guys cant??? They are not a spectator event and they wont have as many people there as a CCS race weekend. Also when you asked the SE guys a few years ago what was their least favorite track, they said CMP, right. But did you ask if they wanted it dropped from the schedule? My least favorite track is Roebling Road but I dont want it dropped. I think you need to ask the MA and SE guys if they want CMP added back to the SE and MA schedule. How about it???
A lot of people would love to see CMP back on the schedule, CCS needs to take notice of this.
"Monkey Boy" you keep it up and you'll be attending the Southeast banquet in Homestead with us next weekend! :o
HD
Even if the surface is as bad as Roebling and the paddock as bad as Jennings, I'd still rather go to CMP than VIR (for a Southeast region event).
VIR is just too dang far away!
- Stu
The point is this. CMP has made some serious improvment since CCS has been gone from there. The track surface is fine. Nothing like RRR. And they have paved the paddock too. They have also extended turn 1 and made it wider and other run-off improvements as well.
So what do we need to do to get CMP back on the schedule for 05? Start blasting Kevin Elliot with e-mails ASAP? ;D Any other ideas? ???
I would like to know something. If we race Jennings 3 times this year, is there anyway that the SE can run the weekend instead of FL. I love the track and enjoy going to it, except for the way that it is ran. I think that if it is going to be a regulary race track for the SE, then the race schedule and rules should be the same as what the SE riders are accustom to. I am not trying to be mean or disrespectful, I'm just voicing my opinion. One of the biggest things I hate about going to Jennings is the fact that I have to pack up everything every night to drive outside the gates. Also with running all of the races on Sunday it leaves very little room for error. Races can easily get shorten real quick, which makes for some very unhappy racers because they are not getting what they paid for. Of course this is just my opinion, and I'll listen to what others have to say.
Thanks