They should be allowed to race, but the common courtesy always was to pull off before the checker flag. Like anyone I'm up for practice wherever and whenver I can get it, but do not take our little trophies and purses away from us "backmarkers" doing the club thing. ;D Think about your question, it is the same thing the top AMA guys are talking about "should those supersport bikes be allowed on the track with the true superbikes" hell yeah if they can qualify!
You're faster than me, you're can't race here. DUH!
It was a little disappointing to hear at Road America that "The winner is Larry Pegram." all the time.
I must admit it was a little disappointing to hear at Road America that "The winner is Larry Pegram." all the time. However, at events at Road America, Road Atlanta and others, I don't think we will be able to avoid that.
Every year the "big boys" come and run with us to get more track time for thier "real races." ::)
hmm I always thought it was good to learn from someone better. Kinda cool when the AMA guys show up, plus once you go expert you are in the big pond and you are not entitled to any money (purse) you must earn it. IMO
Eric:
I agree that you learn from someone who is rides better and is faster than you, but that only works if you have a level playing field. The pro guys with their factor bikes verses the club guys with thier one and only bike is quite a disparity.
Personally I don't race, but my husband does (in the lightweight classes). Knowing many of the club racers and the effort that they put into their hobby week after week and to have one of the pro guys come and snatch the purse away was kind heartbreaking.
Dawn
Sportbikepete, I agree about the common courtesy aspect, but how do you "legislate" that into the rule book. It becomes disheartening when the Pros arrive at a CCS weekend, "work" for 3 races and walk away with $3000 plus contingency money with little or no out of pocket expenses. But the "true" professional racers do pull off prior to the end of the race.
Hoffman -- are you whining because Scott Harwell and Byron Barbour won the money races at Roebling 7/21-22 ?
The difference between win-ing and wHining is the big H.
Maybe we would be better served if you started a thread about fools who bring their attack dogs to the track.
The real pros aren't worried about the purse. It costs more than that in tires, gas, and sign up. Where else are you going to grid next to the big shots and see how it's supposed to be done. 10 years from now you'll be able to talk about going into turn 1 with so n' so and the memories will be worth more than the purse.
The older I get, the faster I was!
39SE? do I know you? why must you begin mud slinging at me or the poll I posted? What have I ever done to you to warrant this attack. The reason prompting this poll is for the "Byron Barbours" ,"Pat Mooneys" and "Rick Croly's" that are out there footing their own bills. I have discussed this issue with Kevin Elliot last year and completely understand his reasoning for not excluding AMA Pros, but I wished for rider input concerning this topic and you responded with a personal attack. What shameful behavior it is that you choose to hide behind a desktop casting stones.
Hoffman -- you have mail.
Like someone else said about them complaining about supersport bikes being on the track with them...it's only fair..if they pay the money they can race....only thing i say is as long as the factory bike meets the same requirements as ours then it's rider not bike..and if you are the one behind them...open your eyes and learn...next time you might win...and wouldn't that be something to tell "Hey everyone i beat Bostrom this weekend"...lol...
If you don't like it don't race plain and simple. Or maybe you need to practice a little harder so your not as slow.
Where would you draw the line as an AMA PRO? There are AMA Pro guys that don't have things handed to them; they have to pay to get to the track, etc. I've been there.
Racing is not necessarily about a level playing field. If it was, we would all show up with our forks, rear shock, and a set of carbs. Place it on a sealed engine in a chassis, add balast for an equal weight, then qualify, and race.
Dale Quarterley WON an AMA National Superbike event over the best of them. He was leasing bikes from Muzzy, yes, but he still had to do the work. I know, because I helped.
Indeed, the current state of much racing has gotten a bit out of control. $40,000 endurance bikes for Team Vesrah, extra wheels, shock warmers, and the like. But as an older guy, I'm still reasonably competitive in Unlimited GP on a GSXR600 with no help in addition to all the people that I am responsible for helping during a weekend.
In my opinion, letting AMA PRO's race at club level is equivalent to letting CCS Experts race at Novice level. If you join the Expert ranks, you forfeit your right to cherrypick the novices. If you join the Pro ranks, you forfeit your right to cherrypick club racers.
Shawn
What about the guys who race CCS full seaon and just happen to hold an AMA licence so they can run in Pro Thunder events with an SV. Does that mean I should be excluded just because I run one AMA race a year? I think not. If your bike is legal to run, then run it, beat everyone and then go home with the money, IT IS ALL FAIR>
I'm with shawn on that...they desided to move to pro so they should not race club...if you were a novice you would not want an expert to be on the grid beside you going for the same prize...if it happend someone would come and raise hell about it...but i will say if they do race with us...they should not be given a place nor should they be given points and let them race as much as they want besides it's just practice for them anyway...
It's all really sticky.
If there were money for someone that got an AMA Pro license, I can understand not allowing someone to race. But if you have an expert license, you can pretty much do an AMA Pro race.
There has always been overlap.
I have some pictures from 1989 when Scott Russell showed up at Blackhawk Farms with his Yoshimura 600 Katana for a Suzuki Cup weekend. Many of us ran AMA pro races, and we just saw it as an opportunity to gauge ourself against Scott, and as an opportunity to try and beat him.
He just needed the money.
So, who is the local offender that is making everyone so angry?
I think anyone should be allowed to race that pays the entry fee, but I think there should be a reasonable range in lap times among competitors. If you are going to limit guys that are "AMA Pro", when are we going to have minimum limits to eliminate slower riders? How would CCS make the distinction beteen a Pro rider and a club rider? There are several fast club experts that also compete in AMA and Formula USA Races. I think the rider makes up 99% of the difference in lap times; equipment only makes a minor difference. If you disagree, here are a couple of examples:
I did consistent 1:15's at blackhawk on a 99hp f3. I bought a hooters suzuki 750 making 140 rwhp and was only able to get into the 1:13's.
At Road America, I was only able to get down to low 1:20's, high 1:19's. I loaned my bike to Matt Wait for the formula USA Races and with no outside help he turned a 1:15 in practice and did consistent low 1:14's in the race. It's pretty humbling and amazing to watch somebody ride your same bike 4 seconds faster/lap. Ouch! and I am a top expert competitor......Matt hauls ass!
So I think the biggest difference is the amount of experience and track time. There is no substitute for seat time.
Brent
QuoteSo I think the biggest difference is the amount of experience and track time. There is no substitute for seat time.
Brent
Track time is not necessarily relevant to speed. Look at those that have race for a long time or have done every track day known to man. There are still others that go faster, maybe much faster.
Eyesight and reaction time play an important role. Additionally, motivation and confidence.
Matt is a gifted rider with good eyesight and reaction time. He's motivated and confident. How much time did it take for him to go faster than you? Those can just be things that he can do that your body can't.
Yes, you go fast at a level, but sometimes, beyond that, your body is unable to do the right things.
Personally, I do not have depth perception because my brain shut off my right eye when I was young. I don't know what depth perception is to all of you, but I don't have the same capability of judging distances that normal people do.
Because of that, there is only so much I can do. I have compensated through out my life, but there is no way that I can change that.
Experience is another thing too. Doing lap after lap, is just that. One lap, one lap, one lap. Matt was an experienced dirt tracker. That's a rough sport. Very little practice, heats, semi's, and either you make it or you go home. You have to learn quick, or you go home. Because of that experience, Matt learned how to go fast.
Compare that to just putting in laps at a track day or even just a regular practice session.
Let's face facts here. Racing is a business. We'd all love to make oodles of money off this business, whether you race, promote, or sell a product or service.
Fast guys will be fast. In a business model, will the following scenario fly?Let's kick off the guys who are fast. Bump the fast amatuers up to expert and bump the fast experts up to pro. What about the slow riders? Don't let them compete, they're in the way. You've just subjectively eliminated people who pay the bills that we all share as racers. Track rental, staffing, saftey crews, medical, security does not come free.
In the mid-west, we have a number of riders who hold AMA Pro licences. They are fast. They win races. They can and have been beat by club racers at their home track. However, we are still a club, and we all share the burden of paying the bills through those fees that a few always seem to complain about. Having an open and flexible policy will keep racing within some realm of financial attainablility for the weekend racer.
They should be able to race anywhere, anytime, however you can't compare the fast experts, that hold AMA pro status to the full or semi factory riders. Guys that get paid to race full time, with full time mechanics, and such shouldn't get club purses. Most top pros, will only be doing club races for track time, they get that without the purse. Fast experts with pro cards could probably describe most of the top 5 or 10 at a club race with good turnout. These are the guys who can use the money, and earn it .
But you're drawing a line.
Again, there are guys that need the money. Brian Livengood actually finished in the top ten overall in the AMA Superbike series. He doesn't have any money. He can use any money he can get. Do you cut him off?
Really, if you've got a license, you should use it.
The bigger factory names can't do club races because of risk. If they get all wadded up at a club race because of what they, or someone else does, they don't make any money.
Additionally, competition is always good. The AMA Pros are experts, too. Why the whining?
It sounds to me that most of you dont want pros in club races with the exception of Mr. Dave, well I am one of the slow guys who race and I don't get in the way of the fast guys I ride my race and you know what when I'm in a race with the fast experts they teach me about lines that I would not have seen if it wasn't for them. The team chalenge is where slow guys and fast guys ride on the track at the same time and this past year I got a chance to be passed by some very fast riders but it also made me think that allI have to do is pick up the pace and then I'll get fast sooner or later. Oh by the way Dave I would really like to take your school next year because I have seen how fast you are and with what you ahve with no depth perception you could teach me a lot, and yes you have passed me on the track a few times.
"I don't think anyone faster than me should be allowed to race." This statement makes about the same amount of sense as trying to not allow AMA pros to race.
Yes, and when you state it that way it seems pretty simple, doesn't it.
Come on out to school, that would be great.
Don't know the schedule yet, but I hope to know by the end of next month.
Again, all in my opinion...but:
Club racing is not a business for most people. Club racing is a competitive sport. Competitive sports are, many times, broken into classes to allow for more competitiveness. Club racing does that in many different ways...novice/expert, lightweight/heavyweight/etc, supersport/superbike...and on and on. All things are in place to make things competitive and fun for many different people.
AMA Pro's are in a different class. Would people be defending the third year novice who had one three national championships but somehow was not being forced to move to expert? No...most people would call him a cherrypicker.
Why do we have different standards for AMA pros? I'm sure some people defending them know them personally. For some, maybe there is some "hero worship" involved.
I haven't heard what I would consider good arguments for allowing them to race. "They need the money"...in other words, they are going to cherrypick the club racers to fund their inability to win money in their own class, the AMA. Bet there are plenty of experts wishing they could cherrypick the novice class to make extra money.
Make a choice. If you are going to race AMA, race AMA...you arn't going to learn anything racing with the club guy "you have to race with people faster then you to get better".
This is all my uninformed opinion. Nothing personal!
Shawn
Shawn
I guess I couldn't disagree more.
AMA Pros a different class? No. They are experts that have moved their program up a notch. Might be in the form of their investment in machinery, or that they just are serious about racing.
Once you're an expert, you're part of that playing field. Then it all depends upon how fast you are committed to go, or can be able to be commited to go.
The numbers of "Pro" racers that make money doing this is very limited. It's much bigger than it was several years ago, but there is also more money available to amateurs and experts at the club level in the form of purses. Guys that "go AMA Pro" often struggle alot. It might make them a better rider, but its nothing other than making a decision on who to race, and where to race at.
Larry Denning makes $40 to $60k a year racing for Yamaha money, etc. Doesn't do AMA pro races because it would be hard to make a living, and the financial commitment would be extraordinary.
Larry's a very good rider. Do we make him go "pro"? Do you make a mid pack first year expert stop racing in CCS club racing because he decided to take a shot at a Pro Thunder race on his old Ducati F1 750?
I guess I see both sides of the situation. In my opinion, AMA Pro's are a different class...they arn't club racers anymore, they are professional racers.
Its going to be up to the clubs to either allow or disallow professionals. At least Shane Prieto retired this year... :o
Shawn
Is it bad that Shane retired? I think so. The sport needs people to shoot for and people that are recognized.
What do you do with a guy like Ed Key that is so good in the Lightweight classes? He wins races, etc. Used to race AMA pro stuff, 10 years ago.
What do you do with a guy that doesn't do so well?
Again, back to Larry Denning, he is a professional, Yamaha money is his living. Does he get booted out? He might have an AMA Pro license, but he doesn't use it.
How many guys that have an AMA pro license actually make money racing? How many amateurs make more money than most of the experts racing? Should they be booted into being experts?
QuoteWhat do you do with a guy like Ed Key that is so good in the Lightweight classes? He wins races, etc. Used to race AMA pro stuff, 10 years ago
Exactly. Mr. Key devotes almost every breathing moment to racing his SV. He's raced as a club amatuer, made money at it, as a pro, not so much money, raced cars, and eventually came back to club racing.
Does he make money? Probably not enough to cover his expenses. Does he improve the sport and mentor new racers? Absolutely.
Ask Ed sometime about the year Jason D'Amico finally beat him in the lightweight supersport race. Ed on his beloved CB-1, Jason on his trusty Hawk. It made Jason's day to finally beat Ed. It made Ed's day to have that exuberant competition.
Omiting a racer because he is an "AMA Pro", is denying everyone of eventual elevated competition. Good racing is good racing. It's exciting to compete, exciting to watch, and tests a competitor's mettle more than he or she might care to know.
Yeah, Baby!
You've got it.
We all have to get up in the morning to pee, sitting or standing. Then the pants go on. Some are more dedicated, some are lighter, and some are just faster.
Racing is not about handicaps, that's where bowling and some drag racing come in.
When the green flag drops...
QuoteWhat do you do with a guy like Ed Key that is so good in the Lightweight classes?
Force him to run a MW or bigger bike so we can all judge exactly how fast he is....
No offense to Ed as he's a great guy, but haven't you always wondered??? ;D
He can't.
His wrist was smashed up many years ago. It just doesn't work. When he has to work it hard, it doesn't work very well. That's why he retired from bikes and did cars. But the bug bit him, and he worked to get back into it.
Ed just can't ride a 600 because of a physical limitation.
Dave
Nothing against Ed but I ride both a 6oo and a SV. I can't think of any physical limitations that won't allow you to ride either bike. If it is a wrist problem then he should go with a quarter turn throttle. Just my thoughts on it is all, Ed is a great rider who brings a lot to this sport and evrybody has to ride what they want not what other people want.
Craig
Honestly, I believe that his wrist is fused together. So, he might have a 1/4 or even 1/5 turn throttle.
A 600 would require braking more often and for a longer period of time, that would pound up his wrist until it just gave out.
As for wondering how fast Ed is, I've got video's with him on a Honda Hurricane from 1987. He used to race Yamaha FZ750's too. What does he need to prove to anyone else anyway?
Ok Dave got it now thanks for clearing it up.
He has nothing to prove to me because I know he is very fast.
Hey Dave you know you aren't to slow yourself. lol
Hey, I didn't mean to imply that Ed or anyone has anything to prove. I was more interested like in the IROC series where they bring the best from several different auto classes and run them together in equal equipment. Still doesn't prove anything, but sure is fun :)
I under stand (and thanks for the compliment...)
I would be cool to have a spec class. I know some guys in Norway that race, and they had a series where you showed up with your shock, forks, tires and carbs. Bolted it on to the bike and away you went. That would be cool!
I agree it would be fun to do something like that. I guess I did...
In 1998 I ran the MZ Skorpion Cup National Championship. You could put on a slip on, change jets, change the fork oil, change tires, aftermarket bodywork, chain and sprockets, and install a new dog bone at the rear suspension link to raise the back end up. That was it. Go. Really fun, really equal.
So...if someone buys (you don't have to qualify) an AMA Pro license you should not be able to come back and run club races? Or do you then say,"OK, you are a fast club racer, you qualified on the back row, now you can't race with us anymore"? Where do you put the cut off on pro riders to not run club races? Top 5, top 10, 15, 20, 25?? Is that cut off point then a lucky 12th place one weekend or season point tandings?
Notice you don't see Nicky Hayden, Doug Chandler, Aaron Yates, Gobert, Roberts, etc. at these races. It's usually an ex-factory racer looking to extend their careers a bit longer. In time they go away ... when the up and coming future factory riders start beating on them. Those "future factory riders" are the riders not complaining about the factory racers but working on ways to beat them.
Go out and give them hell. As I once heard the famous car driver/ team owner A.J. Foyt tell his driver at Road America..."Quit bitchin' and drive the S.O.B.!"
Force him to ride a bigger bike? Ed rode many a bigger bike in his day. I seem to remember him winning an endurance race in St Louis aboard the Team Lockhart GSX-R 1110 a few years back. Along with a VFR750 superbike, Kawasaki superbike, etc. and he was fast on all of them.
He is now enjoying life racing what he chooses and lately having a bit of a battle out front with some up and coming talent. What do you do with him? Let him win while he can, the young guns are coming.
QuoteForce him to run a MW or bigger bike so we can all judge exactly how fast he is....
No offense to Ed as he's a great guy, but haven't you always wondered??? ;D
Aw hell,
Let's dog on Ed some more. ;) I mean, Apparently Tripp Nobles must have been having an off day, right? Right. Ed is still fast. Congrats to Mr. Key on all of his National and Regional Championships.
old topic, but i was bored and decided to reply:
why not differentiate between 'Pro' licenses and the level of 'Pro' license.
For instance, you can hold an AMA Pro license and race club events but if you have a AMA Superbike license you cannot.
I'm not sure what it will prove.
If you have enough points, you can buy an AMA Superbike license. Others that have enough points don't. A license doesn't make you fast. And an AMA Superbike license doesn't pay the rent.
There are a couple of issues and one currently standing example that is a parallel. issue a. professional courtesy: If you have a factory contract why cherry pick club races? If Larry P. needs track time at Road America or Atlanta, great. Let the checker drop on an up and comer. b. faster racers: following fast racers around the track makes me alot faster. It would be good for all of us, right? Parallel situation: the AMA just banned factory Superbike sponsored racers from running in Supersport. I believe this came out of the whining of Miguel DuHamel about the Yosh team snagging extra practice time in registering for FX, using FX practice time, and then not gridding for the big show. The Yosh boys found a loophole that allowed them more set-up time and used it. Now the loophole is gone. So, where is the line drawn. Is it all AMA Pros or, just factory sponsored AMA pros. Pardon my ignorance, again, do we have factory sponsored racers in CCS? Is anyone here receiving bikes or motors from Honda, Suzuki, etc.?
First, you won't see Mladin, Yates, or Roberts at a CCS event. Their contracts will not allow them to risk themselves at that level.
Support. Hard to define. I was supported by Kawasaki for two years. The focus of my program was local racing and my school. Didn't offer me any advantage, but I had the support for my program. It got a Kawasaki on the track for Kawasaki.
Others are supported by manufacturers, etc., in ways through parts budgets or deals on bikes. Again it still doesn't make them fast, but it does represent the fact that they work hard on their program.
For 2004 contracted Superbike riders will not be allowed to run in Superstock. Or even any rider, I think. Currently the rules are not set.
So, I think you can expect that Mladin and Yates will be contracted by Yosh to ride Superbike. They will not be able to do Superstock. However, Yamaha doesn't have a Superbike team, so Bucky, Hacking, DiSalvo, and Gobert will ride Superstock.
The Formula Extreme problem with practice time...well, superbike riders have been entering other classes for some time. One of the tricks this year was that some of the top guys were entering on their superbikes, doing a qualifying time, and then not showing up to race. This diminished the field.
The problem with the Superbike/no Superstock issue is that most AMA Pro racers do NOT have a factory contract. So, they do NOT have the money to do three to four test days at each track. Often, they rely on having two classes to run so that they can get some decent time so that they can get a set up together. Restricting it for them will only hurt them.
During the year, the AMA put a program in place for top guys in Superbike. FX, and Superstock... So, if you were a privateer guy like Brain Stokes, and you were in the top ten in Superbike because you persevered and did good laps keeping it up right, your reward was that you couldn't race in the other classes. Guys like that rely on being able to make a good showing in those other classes to get support from their sponsors and to possibly make a little cash back.
I have raced in a few nationals in the early 90s and now an expert, would I qualify for the excluded list? how would it work? by lap times? If the guy is faster than the fastest local he can't race. If he's from another club and fast he can't race?
This would be a very slippery slope indeed. Fast is fast, having an AMA license doesn't make you fast nor slow without one. I can still qualify for nationals but I don't because those guys are trying to make a career out of it and I am just playing. I don't however have any problem taking the money at CCS event, If I can get it.
the way it looks to me there are two types of club racers, guys like me who are having fun and guys who are serious. If you are in it for fun no big deal who comes, if you are serious then you welcome the challenge and see what a tow can teach you.
Will Eikenberry #63 pacific
:)I used to box and I was a damn good ameteur. Would it be a fair fight if I crawled into the ring with Tyson, Hearns, Holyfield, etc.? No, they would have beaten the stuffing out of me. Would I have done it? Hell yeah, just for the experience and to say I did. I haven't raced in over 20 years and I'll be fielding a bike next season. If Mladdin, Yates, Bostrom, etc. want to grid up with me fine. Will they beat me? Hell yeah, that is more than likely a foregone conclusion. Will it prove anything for them? No. I have no problem with racing anyone who wants to come out but as a matter of common courtesy if you're only on the track to get in some practice time then pull into the pits before the checker and let someone take the flag who it would mean something to. I don't see how it could be much fun to win a race if you're turning lap times 5 or 6 seconds faster than everyone else, the result is a foregone conclusion unless you do something stupid. Besides which if one of the pros crash you can tell the story for the rest of your life about how you beat them, just leave out the part about them crashing. :)