I am thinking about racing my bike. I have prior motocross and go kart racing experience. However, I would like to take my time and get started right. I've got an '03 ZX6R and just don't get much excitement on the road. I'm hoping to do track days next year and hopefully try racing late next year or in '05. Does this sound reasonable?
Getting started is not really that difficult. I'm guessing that by your location you will be in the CCS Great Lakes Region, which runs many of it's races combined with the Midwest and Great Plaines Regions. Dave Rosno of Visionsports Racing School ( http://www.team-visionsports.com/pages/621754/index.htm ) runs a racing school that goes beyond the others (he goes by Super Dave here on the board). His schools are focused on improving your riding ability, as opposed to just getting you an amatuer license. He is located in Wisconsin and usually attends the Midwest events and is highly respected among those who know him.
As far as doing track days before begining racing, I don't think it would be necessary in your case with your prior motorcycle and go cart racing experience. I bet you would do very well having past racing experience and would blend into roadracing motorcycles without too many problems.
Many people will offer advice as to what you need, but the number 1 accepted thing you will definately need is suspension that is correct for your weight and your riding ability. Purchasing the proper weight springs front and rear and either revalving the suspension or purchasing racing oriented suspension componets will probably be the best thing you will ever do to help your racing. Forget all the performance upgrades to the engine at the start beyond a race exhaust, high-flow air filter, and carb. kit / fuel management upgrade (such as a Power Commander). Higher horsepower motorcycles are more difficult to race and more often than not slow down a persons learning curve. Middleweight 600cc bikes such as yours do quite well at most the tracks we race at here in the 3 Midwest regions.
There are some basic things that are required to get started. Start by safety wiring your oil fill plug, oil drain plug, and oil filter (done by safety wiring to a radiator clamp around the filter). Remove the coolant and replace it with straight water (just don't forget to drain it when it gets cold outside), don't forget the resevoir. The reason for this is because Ethylene-Glycol (anti-freeze) is one of the slickest substances known to man and is really difficult to remove from the track in the event of a spill. Propylene Glycol such as ( http://evanscooling.com/ ) is legal in CCS, doesn't freeze in the winter, and doesn't boil till 370*. Add an overflow tank for your various over flow lines, and remove all mirrors and lights (or better yet get race bodywork) and your basically legal for CCS.
Many racers will safety wire alot of the bolts for piece of mind and purchase after market front brake lines for better braking feel. Stock brake pads work remarkably well, but most people eventually upgrade to aftermarket ones. A quality O-ring type 520 chain and a couple front and rear sprocket sizes will get you started (ask here and people can offer advice as to what size sprockets for your application). Race tires are a must if you want to do well, they only last so long, and will probably be your biggest expense in this type of racing (next to entry fees).
The best advice I can probably give you is to stay away for credit cards to fund your racing, massive debt is the common reason people don't last in this type of racing. I personally went that route and had to take 2 1/2 years off to try and get out of that hole, now I pay cash for everything as I go (or if I have to charge something I pay it immediately when the bill comes). Only do what you can afford to do and you will probably stay racing alot longer. I think you should just go for it and you'll probably find that it wasn't that bad to get started!
Mike, thanks for the shameless plug...LOL!
I think Mike has the basics.
How far did you go in MX?
I wouldn't even bother with the exhaust or Power Commander.
First and foremost, a bike must have correct geometery. An expert rider should have some ability to figure this out over time. What will it do? There aren't many "true" road race bikes. You start with a street bike now. The dynamics are there, but they are put together with components that allow most people in the street enviornment to use them. On a race track things become different. The bike gets loaded a different way because you have more traction on the track, mostly because you can get racing DOT tires up to temperature. This load winds up the chassis.
Often stock bikes don't have enough ground clearance and don't make enough anti-squat through chain torque. So, the rear shock needs to be longer, either with an aftermarket unit, or by using the clevis on the shock mount. Your R has one. How much? That's where it get's tricky.
The other reason to do this is because race tires are 70 aspect ratio rather than 60. So, that's usually a 12mm rise in the front end. We've got to keep an even balance on the bike.
What happens at the back also effects trail and the feel that one gets from the bike.
Now you can select the proper spring rates for the bike.
Yes, a good shock like I use such as a Hyperpro, or others like Ohlins and Penske, do have better internals for better dampening quality. But you could get away for a moment without them.
Forks are the same way. You won't replace the forks, but better internals are readily available. I recommend having a shop that SPECIFICALLY does road race suspension do it for you, and do it right. If you do it, or your buddy does it, or your shop does it and it's not exactly right...you might have well left it stock because it will blow and your money is wasted.
Set up is the key.
Geometry? Easy way to do it is have it measured by a company like http://4and6.com. They have a device that measures the current geometry of your bike and then they can optimize it to make it where it should be. One might make some minor changes, but it will certainly put a racer in the ball park. They have the shock and fork information and parts too. They are one of the few shops to ever put a privateer rider on the top of the box in first place in a AMA Supersport event.
That help?
Wow, thanks for all of the information! I guess I better start studying! I figured there was a lot to think about! At 33 I will most likely not get real serious about this. I'm just not ready to go play at track days yet. I've still got a lot of race in me! I did MX for a few years and did OK. I raced karts for 3 years and did quite well. I'll still get in a kart or dwarf car from time to time. Just getting into sport bikes...that's why I thought I should just do some track days next year. Anyway thanks for all of the info. I've definately go a lot to think about!
A lot to think about? Nah, really the most important thing to do is remember that it's all fun...just like MX, carts, everything...
But if you want to be a bit more serious, you now have a real idea of what you'll hopefully need to work on.
Some stuff is not worth spending money on. And, besides, you've got to ride the bike.
Track days probably won't get you motivated like race day. You'll get a feel for it, but it doesn't give you the same kind of race stress that sometimes you need to go faster.
Quote...! At 33 I will most likely not get real serious about this... !
In my opinion...
Suspension... but I think that has been covered ;D
Don't go out with a MW bike. Middle weight is known as the Meat grinder class for a reason. If I could start over, I would start with a light weight bike. The reasons are, tires ($400+ a set.. a MW bike will use up a rear in just over one GT race), on a LW bike you learn to corner better, you have to (Notes a girl on a 125 @ Gingerman passing a guy on a Gixxer 1000) and Competitions is not nearly as tough... among many other reasons.
As far as the age thing goes... I started when I was 30, when I look around the pits I don't see that many kids around. But I see a lot of people near my age and older!
QuoteAt 33 I will most likely not get real serious about this. quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA....hahahahahahahahahahahah..hehehehehehehehehehe... Gee, he didn't mean for that to be funny... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... That's what makes it funny! Poor fool hasn't a clue what he's getting into...
BTW, I started at 35. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
If you have the money to race and the time available off of work you should just do the basic prep listed, go do Daves school, and just get out there and do your 1st race! After that, what Chris was refering to will take over and you will no longer be able to control your desire to get back out on the track! ;D
Good point guys.
I believe the median age for club racers is in the mid 30's now. Sure, there are some young guys out there, but try affording road racing on your own budget when you're in college or just out. It is expensive.
And yeah, an SV650 is great for a bike to start with, let alone for just a great bike to race with.
I will definately look up your school Dave! I will be on a budget spending cash only, so I'll have to race my 636 and I really don't want to go back to a two stroke. Although I did enjoy watching the 250's run at the AMA at Barber. As far as changing the bike goes, I do have an M4 high mount slip on pipe on its way. But that's about all I plan right now. I'd rather learn to race the bike right now, maybe later will I worry about aftermarket suspension and brakes.
Quote... I'd rather learn to race the bike right now, maybe later will I worry about aftermarket suspension and brakes.
Stock Suspension could cause you to crash...
Most bikes out of Japan are sprung for a 150 pound rider (with gear on). Bottom out the suspension and who knows what is going to happen.
IMO learn to ride a bike that is setup right, right away. that way you have a better grasp of what the bike is doing under you.
Myself, I race on strictly a Cash basis also... I am afraid of the debt I would ring up if I didn't do it that way! :o
And trust me when I say I am tempted to go out and buy a new bike, while taking a loan out on it...
QuoteStock Suspension could cause you to crash...
Most bikes out of Japan are sprung for a 150 pound rider (with gear on). Bottom out the suspension and who knows what is going to happen.
IMO learn to ride a bike that is setup right, right away. that way you have a better grasp of what the bike is doing under you.
Ah, read my thing above. The geometry is key. The thing works a certain way with the componentry in a certain geometry. Change the rear ride height, the location of the swingarm pivot changes and affects anti squat. Makes the spring work differently.
I had stock internals in my R6 until the end of August. Still the stock internals were good enough for me that I finished in the top ten in the FUSA races at Heartland Park.
Dave Ebben ran an R6 with a stock shock for a very, very long time. Before Blackhawk was repaved, he set the 600 lap record at a 1:13 and some change...with the stock shock. Set up, set up, set up. A good bike is not a sum of all it's parts, but it's a function of set up.
Make more sense?
QuoteStock Suspension could cause you to crash...
Most bikes out of Japan are sprung for a 150 pound rider (with gear on). Bottom out the suspension and who knows what is going to happen.
IMO learn to ride a bike that is setup right, right away. that way you have a better grasp of what the bike is doing under you.
Myself, I race on strictly a Cash basis also... I am afraid of the debt I would ring up if I didn't do it that way! :o
And trust me when I say I am tempted to go out and buy a new bike, while taking a loan out on it...
err I weight 150 with gear on and I have never been on a stock suspension bike where I can get more than 10mm of sag. My R6's does not even go down when I sit on the bike.
If the new bikes are sprung for 150 lb rider, then when a 180 guy taking a 130 girl for a ride, there wouldn't be any play in the suspension? I find your analogy not realistic.
I always raced with a stock shock. I had it respringed this past year. after than I felt a great big difference because now the rear will move...
Dafan,
you are an exception. All xian is refering to is most
club racers under racing conditions. ie., 200 lbs
with hot DOT's. how often do you drag your knee
with the women on the back? i'm not arguing, but
it is a huge difference when weight is shifted from
front to rear an vs versa when the spring rate is wrong. for example, I myself weighed 180lbs with
all of my gear on, was running a stock shock and
spring. Then I went to an after-market shock with
a 425 . No real difference, still spinning up the rear
coming out ( GSXR 600 ) of the corner. finally changed the spring because I was just the opposite
of xian,in that I needed to soften up the rear. went
to a 400, mucho bettero. You have to remember,
that most guys out there are not your size, and they need stiffer spring rates so as to not loose the rear
mid-corner. just out of curiosity, what rate spring are you using? 375? So, it isn't really an analogy, just
big-guy physics is all. Be happy that you are a little guy. Your motorcycle thanks you.
30.
Stock suspensions rule! ;D
Yep, just prep it and go race it. That's what I did. Never been on a paved track before I took my racing school.
Rode a bunch on the street but got tired of the dangerous non-moveable objects just outside of the turns.
Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, this is why you will never catch
Stumpy.
If you would only listen to reason ;D
30.
Wow guys...
Next time I open my mouth... I will have to say exactly what I mean, you guys nit pick to much!
My comment was a generalization in regards to Stock Suspension.. that is NOT touched.
Super Dave, I understand and agree with all you have said about suspension... I stated what I did, as completely un touch suspension. Not adjustments to springs, oils, sag, or Geometry. It can be dangerous on the track. Even worst in the hands of someone not knowing what they are doing.
I said this based off of a friend that crashed at BHFs while riding a bone stock, untouched bike. He has a video of the crash showing the suspension NOT working right and bottoming out in Turn 1 prior to the repaving. While I didn't go into great detail about what I was saying, I was trying to be helpful with out being technical.
Dufan
The 150# rider and gear comment comes directly from the service manual from my bike. If you read the owners manual, it clearly states you need to change you suspension and air pressure setting before taking a passenger. That is written for people who are not planning on Riding WFO through Turn one at Brainard!
While the knowledge I have about Suspension on a bike would not fill Super Daves little toe. I do know that is the Suspension is what is keeping you on the track!
While I may have sounded like I was advising getting all After market suspension, I meant that the suspension should be setup for the rider. If that means after market stuff or not.
QuoteWow guys...
Next time I open my mouth... I will have to say exactly what I mean, you guys nit pick to much!
... He has a video of the crash showing the suspension NOT working right and bottoming out in Turn 1 prior to the repaving. While I didn't go into great detail about what I was saying, I was trying to be helpful with out being technical.
LOL, yeah, aren't we fun to deal with? LOL!
As for the suspension bottoming and crashing in old one...
Honestly, the biggest problem with stock suspension is that it can't move fluid fast enough. Really, you'd want the suspension to be practically bottomed going in, and then gradually the front rises as the braking load decreases and the load it shifted to both ends of the suspension for cornering force.
A big bump...probably hit the bump and then locked from dampening.
Dampening is something that you certainly don't need TOO much of...that will make you crash. If the dampening overcomes the spring...it's wrong.
But I'll agree that I would rather spend the money on suspension first thing with correct geometry on my bikes. That's how my R6 is set up, that's how the H1 will be set up.
Quote That's how my R6 is set up, that's how the H1 will be set up.
You mean that's how your bike WAS set up. The last time I saw your bike, it was in a muddy ball! ;D
Like the H1 will ever see a track. ::)
I took the Race Tech suspension seminar back in '98 (3 days long - 8 hours per day) and learned alot about how suspension works and why.
I agree with Dave on the statement "Honestly, the biggest problem with stock suspension is that it can't move fluid fast enough". Current motorcycle suspension components mostly use a piston with ports thru it to control fluid flow from one chamber to another. The way the flow of fluid is controlled is by a stack of round shims which cover the ports in the piston. As the piston travels thru the shock body the fluid from one chamber travels thru the ports in the piston, deflects the shim stack (actually bends the shims away from the port and allows the fluid to pass thru the piston port), then fills the other chamber.
The problem with stock suspension pistons is they use smaller more restrictive ports and incorrect shim stacks which are geared more toward street situations. The more restictive ports are thought by the manufacturers to be a cheap way to help reduce bottoming out the suspension during hard hits. Though this does work to an extent it also affects fluid flow during all movements, not just harsh ones.
Similarly is the theory behind variable rate springs which get progressively stiffer as they compress, they are generally used to make up for incorrect valving in the shim stack (though the manufacturer will try and get you to believe otherwise). Without doing any valving changes variable rate springs would be a decent middle ground to improved suspension performance.
Race Tech Gold Valve kits replace the original pistons in stock suspension with pistons that have much larger unrestrictive ports in them. The thought here is that the ports in the piston should not be used as a valve and the shim stack should be used to control fluid flow. This is done by stacking the shims in a pyramid shape with the largest diameter shim against the piston face and progressively getting smaller. To adjust the flow of fluid for each persons individual situation the shim stack is then modified by varying shim diameters, thicknesses, and quantity. Hard hits are now controlled by the smaller diameter (often times thicker) shims and are now easily adjustable if needed (unlike the smaller ports in stock pistons which can only be opened up, but how much?).
When you compress the suspension as you go into a corner the spring is compressed and the shim stack inside the suspension controls how fast and smoothly it happens by controlling fluid flow. The problem is that the suspension will initially compress past the amount that it actually needs to be and will then rebound and the spring will begin uncompressing which is then controlled by the rebound valving on the other side of the piston. This is why stock suspension valving with incorrect springs will either bottom out under heavy corner loads (too weak a spring and/or not enough compression valving), or you will get a pogo-stick up and down action (too strong a spring and/or not enough rebound valving), or loss of traction (incorrect spring or incorrect valving not allowing the suspension to follow the road which acts similar to not having suspension at all). The ultimate situation is to have your suspension use the center third of it's travel during normal corner loads, therefore allowing a cushion of extra travel for bumps, varied traction conditions, and berms / gator strips. Your suspension should compress about 2/3rds initially, then 'set' to its' correctly compressed amount without pogo-ing up and down, all in a smooth controlled action.
Many aftermarket suspension manufacturers have followed the lead of Paul Thede of Race Tech and now build race suspension based on these principals.
Correct suspension, set-up, and geometry is the absolute 'must do' when roadracing motorcycles. The investment initially will make your experience much more enjoyable thru having a bike that is controllable and predictable. You can then concentrate on your riding and not be plagued by mystery conditions like lack of traction with good tires or not being able to hold your line.
I was going to say similar things but was too lazy to type it up. You go mike! now how long did that take you ;)
QuoteI was going to say similar things but was too lazy to type it up. You go mike! now how long did that take you ;)
;DLOL ;D It did take a while, but I wanted to help a potential new racer out!
QuoteSimilarly is the theory behind variable rate springs which get progressively stiffer as they compress, they are generally used to make up for incorrect valving in the shim stack (though the manufacturer will try and get you to believe otherwise). Without doing any valving changes variable rate springs would be a decent middle ground to improved suspension performance.
Careful...rising rate springs are new to most people. We used them years ago, then went out of vogue. But Honda has used them in their race bikes for years.
The spring carries the load of the weight of the bike, the rider...and the traction. More traction, more load. Certainly don't need a heavy spring when you're just leaning over. That is a problem with a straight rate spring. Then you've got to have dampening to over come the spring action at those loads.
As for my H1...I'll pass you on the outside with it. Working to have it for Daytona in the spring. Bring your H1 or TR750 or even GSXR down.
QuoteKevin, this is why you will never catch Stumpy.
How is it that my poor little pumpkin Stumpy gets dragged into everything? ;D
Trust me, he's not that hard to get! ;)
Heather
QuoteHow is it that my poor little pumpkin Stumpy gets dragged into everything? ;D
Trust me, he's not that hard to get! ;)
Heather
Sorry about that! I just wanted to get some basic information! Anyway, I'm overwhelmed with the responses!
QuoteHow is it that my poor little pumpkin Stumpy gets dragged into everything? ;D
Trust me, he's not that hard to get! ;)
Heather
because he is so darn cute, that's why!!
30
QuoteCareful...rising rate springs are new to most people. We used them years ago, then went out of vogue. But Honda has used them in their race bikes for years.
The spring carries the load of the weight of the bike, the rider...and the traction. More traction, more load. Certainly don't need a heavy spring when you're just leaning over. That is a problem with a straight rate spring. Then you've got to have dampening to over come the spring action at those loads.
As for my H1...I'll pass you on the outside with it. Working to have it for Daytona in the spring. Bring your H1 or TR750 or even GSXR down.
Ooops! I didn't mean that as something pointed at you Dave, I forgot that you use that type of spring. I was just repeating what I was taught by Paul Thede (the originator / owner of Race Tech) at the seminar I mentioned before. He was respected enough as a suspension guru that the majority of the people at the seminar I attended were other manufacturers involved with suspension themselves (motorcycle, sprint cars, and even suspension technicians from the big 3 auto manufacturers!).
I disagree with not doing any trackdays....we don't know how experienced on a bike you are???? I suggest as many trackdays as possible....sure it's not a race buzz/experience but it's track time! More track time=faster laps. Skip the track days unless your really fast...or be a back marker. If you really want to go for wood, get some track day time first. If you're just in it for fun jump in, head first! ....after you get some suspension!!!!!
QuoteI disagree with not doing any trackdays....we don't know how experienced on a bike you are???? I suggest as many trackdays as possible....sure it's not a race buzz/experience but it's track time! More track time=faster laps. Skip the track days unless your really fast...or be a back marker. If you really want to go for wood, get some track day time first. If you're just in it for fun jump in, head first! ....after you get some suspension!!!!!
Insanity can be described as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Unless you are trying productive new things at those track days that actually lower your times, your time on the track would be somewhat unproductive, except for learning the track ahead of time. For someone to go out on the track and just do laps without any guidence as to what to change in their riding style / set-up it would be very costly if you compared the results you achieved at multiple track days to what you would achieve at one of Dave's schools.
I am just offering time / money saving advice based on my own experiences. When I took my licensing school back in '95 I was totally alone in my new adventure. No one to get advice from, no message board such as this, no freinds that had ever raced before, and a number of what I now know to be preventable set backs in my racing 'career' that could have been easily avoided had I been shown the correct way to do things. I took the longer route from point A to point B when I didn't need to, pride in thinking that you can do it all on your own will only hold you back. I made that mistake, so now I try and help others to not follow that ever so frustrating route.
With previous motorcycle experience and race experience, jumping into road racing shouldn't be too much of a problem. Right now with minimal road bike experience you have a unique opportunity to learn the correct way to do things before you start developing deep seeded bad habits by riding on the street or even unguided track days. If you get out on the track during track days and keep practicing, what are you actually practicing having never road raced before? How are you going to know what you are doing right or wrong or if you are doing good or poorly?
the same can be said about racing then. If you don't get good advice/guidance, then racing is merely following people around and picking up on their habbits (good and bad) just because they are faster than you are. and you are more likely to pick up those habbits just because he is faster than you are. So you desperately try to get faster, and thinking I will try this and that, not knowing what is slowing him down... so good advice is very important to weed out the bad things from the good things, so you only learn thing that will help you.
So either way, track time is good for some aspects, but to advance further, and advance more efficiently, you need to seek out guidance, usually in the form of riding (not racing) schools. Or if you can have a mentor helping your riding, who knows what he is doing, and talking about.
Good points...
If track time was the way to getting faster, Nicky and everyone would be riding around at Misano or Suzuka all day long. And the guys that do all those track days should be way faster than the racers that never hit the track until race day.
Racing is certainly different experience. And during the experience, a rider will often slip past there regular mode of simple confidence and ability and try something agressive. If it works, it can become part of your way of doing things. That kind of "race track stress" can be a much bigger teacher than just riding around on a track day.
Certainly, I know of ways to helping people go faster. I can make it easier, but often people think they can lean it all on their own.
Cars and rising rate springs, yeah, but cars squat on acceleration too. They also have to support a whole lot more traction...We've got, what, two business card size contact patches, and sometimes only one...
I think Dave said it the best " Race day/track stress" management is key. This was my first year and I learned as I went and did make bobos as I went.
Things I learned this year
1. You can't do it buy your self.
2. Take a class or training from a school like daves or TPM.
3. getting some extra seat time helps.
4. Listen to others that know and weed out/ through the BS.
5. Ride within your limits as you learn. yes you can/do learn from a crash. U figure out what u did wrong ( SR1 and 2 for me( choping the throttle and to tight on the bars)) those two item casuse so many other problems
6. Listen to SD. he will tell it like it is from is years of knowledge.
QuoteAs for my H1...I'll pass you on the outside with it. Working to have it for Daytona in the spring. Bring your H1 or TR750 or even GSXR down.
I'll be brining my 72 Waterbuffalo! You will then see the power and superior handling of the mighty GT750! ;D
This is one of the best threads on suspension I have seen to date. I have a question about straight rate vs progressive shocks. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? I am two yrs into racing (mostly part time as expenses allow) and this is the year I redo my suspension on my '00 RC51. I like the class for its civility and veteran competitiveness together. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. How much of an improvement should I expect? SD, I will be contacting you in the springtime to capitalize on my changes.
I understand that oem put progress rate springs in suspension to be able to accomodate different weight riders as springs cannot be swapped to fit each person when bikes are sold, if straight rate springs are used.
While I cannot, and don't have the expertise to state that straight rate is better than progressive, I can see that straight rate springs is easier to set up than progressive. To be able to set up a progressive rate spring, you have to accurately predict suspension travel and set up around the spring rate at the furthest point of travel. So lets say if you change the preload on the springs, then at the point where the springs are compressed the most, you will encounter more spring forces than you would have before you made the preload change. At which point your rebound damping may be too little. so changing one setting would presumably change all setting, which would seem to make getting the right setup a lot harder without the usage of simulation software and a lot of testing and data aquisition.
Also even progressive springs have different progressive rates, so which one would we choose from? I can see that pro teams with the necessary equipment and expertise can make use of the progressive springs and their benefits, but for us, it would be easier to set up a straight rate spring.
QuoteI'll be brining my 72 Waterbuffalo! You will then see the power and superior handling of the mighty GT750! ;D
Well, get started. But you'll have to our ride me.... 8)
Is a straight rate spring easier to set up? Well, that's a good question.
I had an easier time working with my set up this year than before. Got my geometry set, then we make the whole bike taller, front and rear, with the help of http://4and6,com . Can't thank them enough.
You really don't have to make personal selections on the changing spring rates for the rising rate springs. Hyperpro has done that. Jesse Janisch and I both had basically the same set up. We have completely different wieghts. I probably out weigh him by forty pounds, yet when I checked his spring for the amount of preload, we both ended up with the same numbers and we were using the same springs front and rear.
With the straight rate spring you're riding around in a straight line over bumps and all with rate X. When you're loaded up, still rate X. The spring supports the weight of the bike, the rider, and the traction load upon it. When a 600 is wide open straight up and down, it doesn't have a whole lot of load on it. You don't need rate X. But now you have to compromise you dampaning to try to find a happy medium.
So, you've got a rising rate spring. When you're running around straight up and down, you have rate X-Y happening. Nice and plush, compliant. When it's loaded up, rate goes into X+Z. We're under a harsh load so we need the extra rate now. The spring should support what is happening, and it does on a rising rate spring, pretty much automatically.
What was nice was that I didn't have to over dampen it to get good feel. With the load changing, I didn't have a way of altering anything with a straight rate. Dampening is a compromise too and can over come the spring. With the rising rate, the spring does most of the work, as it should, and I could clean it up with the dampening...but not over dampen it.
HRC does use rising rate springs. Honda Racing. They just aren't telling anyone. (I've seen them.)
Hyperpro is unique in using the rising rate spring at the rear. Works pretty slick. I fully expect lots of misunderstanding. This is the motorcycle industry, so others usually prove their point only by belittleing other products rather than actually trying something (not that you guys are, but some people in the know are bashing the other people in the know that are using them). It wasn't that long ago, that we were all using Progressive Suspension springs and straight rate springs were no good.
Will it help the RC? Should improve it, but the RC really could use a good amount of improvement. It's a neat class, I agree, but the one TLR that I rode blew away the RC's that I've been on. It's a geometry thing...and width and weight. Still, it's fun to be on the track!
Wow! This thread is still going! Anyway, The feedback has been great. I'm still pondering what to do. At the very least I'm planning on taking the licensing class. I've got a lot of things and expense to think about as well before I go racing! I'm just not getting much enjoyment riding on the street.
The licensing classes are pretty simple safety classes. I've taught them.
I look at my school as probably a racers best bet for their next school. I'm rather opinionated, but I do have some straight forward answers.
Regardless, good luck and have fun.
QuoteI think Dave said it the best
2. Take a class or training from a school like daves
6. Listen to SD. he will tell it like it is from is years of knowledge.
Opinionated but oh so wise! ;)
Hows the Racer University coming along??
QuoteAt 33 I will most likely not get real serious about this. quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA....hahahahahahahahahahahah..hehehehehehehehehehe... Gee, he didn't mean for that to be funny... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... That's what makes it funny! Poor fool hasn't a clue what he's getting into...
BTW, I started at 35. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
HEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEHEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS FUNNY!!!! He'll be living in a van down by the river, but he'll have one or two nice racebikes to sleep with.
QuoteI fully expect lots of misunderstanding. This is the motorcycle industry, so others usually prove their point only by belittleing other products rather than actually trying something (not that you guys are, but some people in the know are bashing the other people in the know that are using them). It wasn't that long ago, that we were all using Progressive Suspension springs and straight rate springs were no good.
Great point Dave, in this day and age it does seem as though many people/companies bash things that they know nothing about. That very reason is why I have so much respect for Paul Thede's point of view, he has worked with not only straight rate springs but also variable rate springs for years. I reread my original statement about variable rate springs and admit it kind of comes across as a negative statement, I will clarify what I meant.
Variable rate springs are not a bad thing, they are just too often used to make up for incorrect valving, which they can actually do quite well. The theory taught to me about using straight rate springs is that no matter what your motorcycle with you on it weighs, it will basically always weigh the same during a race. When cornering you now take that unchanged weight and compress the suspension due to cornering forces (which acts like more weight). This is where the approach to handling this extra load differs between variable rate and straight rate springs. Variable rates (as I understand it) increase the spring rate at some point in the travel to compensate for this increase in force generated during cornering, therefore allowing a lesser rate during lower forces like bumps and rises/drops in the elevation of the track when not cornering or taking lower load corners.
Straight rate springs used in conjunction with Race Tech Gold Valves handle these same situations in a slightly different approach. As the suspension compresses during cornering loads the air trapped in the forks compresses and acts as an additional spring which gets progressively stiffer the more it is compressed. By changing the oil level in the forks you now change the amount of additional pressure generated by the compressing air in the forks (adjusting the pressure in your shock resevoir creates a similar result). This gives a similar result as a variable rate spring and is easily adjustable by changing oil level in the forks or pressure in the shock resevoir. This is also why blown fork seals will affect your suspension with either type of spring. The Gold Valve approach is to create a valving shim stack which is allowed to do all the work of damping/controlling fluid flow (thru unrestrictive ports) and is set to your level of riding and weight. When set correctly the valve will allow the fluid to flow fast when needed and taper off as needed. As the straight rate spring compresses, the Gold Valve lets the fluid flow at a fast rate until the spring begins to reach the amount of compression required to support the generated corner load. At this point the valve begins closing and restricting the flow of fluid to help the spring not over shoot the amount of compression it currently needs. Rebound damping of the valve then stops the pogo stick tendency of the spring trying to release the extra amount of compression that happened when the spring slightly over compressed. This is where the variable rate springs should have the lighter rate in their spring that shouldn't try and uncompress as much.
The straight rate spring handles the weight of you and your motorcycle thru valving that works under light loads as well as heavy ones by using very accurate valving. Variable rate springs use increased spring tension at some point in the spring to handle the extra load. What I was taught was that variable rate springs can be somewhat of an on/off situation having less feel during the lighter portion of the spring and then being somewhat abrupt when reaching the heavier rate in the spring (as compared only to a Race Tech set-up). The other concern was how do you change (if needed) the point at which the spring is stiffer? A simple change in oil level or resevoir pressure would change progressiveness in a straight rate system without affecting corner loaded ride height. Not a challenge against variable rates Dave, just a concern which was brought up during the seminar I attended.
The improvement going to a variable rate spring on non-Race Tech valved suspension would be very noticable in a good way. Two different approaches to the same result (controlled handling), kind of like the reason all of us are not riding the same type of bikes!
And new valving or shim stack set up will allow for better dampening. But remember that the bike has to be supported. Spring.
A proper rising rate spring is pretty much seemless, it isnt abrupt. The Hyperpro springs are not like Progressive Suspension springs.
If you wanted a spring that has the ability to change when the change point is, then you can use something like Works Performance.
But the assumption is that the change is abrupt, which it isn't again. The rates are not so substantially different, but having the difference is really good. Complient ride with firmness under load. I'll stop there.
QuoteWow! This thread is still going! Anyway, The feedback has been great. I'm still pondering what to do. At the very least I'm planning on taking the licensing class. I've got a lot of things and expense to think about as well before I go racing! I'm just not getting much enjoyment riding on the street.
you see what you've gotten yourself into?
it only gets better...er...worse from here on out in the grass!!!
lil-thorny.