Check out the proposed changes for lw/ulw/mw classes. I know we don't have many riders but if the classes are compressed too much we will only have one race to be competitve in. Please let CCS know we want a couple of classes so maybe we can save something.
My thoughts exactly!! If they do then all the classes I would be at all competitive in would be run in one race? :P I'm not with the combining at all. Who do I write? >:(
Quote My thoughts exactly!! If they do then all the classes I would be at all competitive in would be run in one race? :P I'm not with the combining at all. Who do I write? >:(
Kevin Elliot....!
Sent my E-mail out today! ;)
QuoteCheck out the proposed changes for lw/ulw/mw classes.
Where? ???
CCS's site.
Never heard of ultralightweight superbike. Is that only in certain regions?
Is there another class that either Middleweight or Lightweight sportsman could be run with to keep the two classes separated? What about combining Singles, Ultralightweight sportsman and Middleweight sportsman but running Lightweight sportsman along with Lightweight Supersport? That would give the FZR400 guys the two Sportsman races and the Aprillia guys would still have MW Sportsman and LW Supersport.
I incorrectly read the rule change to mean the classes would be run at the same time but its even worse than that. To quote Kevin "Unfortunately, they will be combined into 1 class with it split between Amateur and Expert Status. This should effectively raise entries to 8-10 per class, a viable number for our program." So unless you're competitive against the Aprilias, FZR400 riders will have NO competitive classes to run in.
I'm building up a supermotard bike to run in the ASMA supermoto races next year, and was planning on using my CR250 as I could also run the CCS ultra-lightweight sportsman races with it. Without ULWSM, I'll have to think about trading the CR250 up for a CR500. Still wouldn't be very competative against the MWSM bikes such as an Aprillia RS or Ducati 750.
It sure would be sad to see the sportsman classes go away. They are a cheap way to race, and I wish more people would realize that these classes make a lot more sense for a newbie to race in than middleweight supersport. Yes I ride an R6 now, but I spent my first year of track days and a few races on my old Ducati 750SS. I'm sure I learned more in my first year on that bike then I would have on a 600.
My wife was running her MZ in SuperSingles and LWSM, along with LWSS for extra track time this year. The proposed rule would remove the two classes the MZ is competative in. Good thing she got her TZ250 for next year. I bet if you ask her she could tell you how much faster she's learned in the last couple years on her MZ than she would have on a middleweight.
-z.
QuoteI'm building up a supermotard bike to run in the ASMA supermoto races next year, and was planning on using my CR250 as I could also run the CCS ultra-lightweight sportsman races with it. Without ULWSM, I'll have to think about trading the CR250 up for a CR500. Still wouldn't be very competative against the MWSM bikes such as an Aprillia RS or Ducati 750.
It sure would be sad to see the sportsman classes go away. They are a cheap way to race, and I wish more people would realize that these classes make a lot more sense for a newbie to race in than middleweight supersport. Yes I ride an R6 now, but I spent my first year of track days and a few races on my old Ducati 750SS. I'm sure I learned more in my first year on that bike then I would have on a 600.
My wife was running her MZ in SuperSingles and LWSM, along with LWSS for extra track time this year. The proposed rule would remove the two classes the MZ is competative in. Good thing she got her TZ250 for next year. I bet if you ask her she could tell you how much faster she's learned in the last couple years on her MZ than she would have on a middleweight.
-z.
I'm in the same boat as your wife, I run an MZ also and have been running the same classes you mentioned. This was also my first year and I did it quite cheaply($8,000) I did not know that they would all be made into one class. That really stinks.
That sucks for the single-cylinder and small displacement racers, but sounds like it's being driven by a lack of entries.
I still think a good FZR 400/560 can be competitive in MWSM. In fact, Jason Temme won a MWSM round at Road America this season aboard his FZR.
If we get 8-10 riders on the grid each weekend, at least we'll be able to race for available tire contingency. We had 10 riders on the MWSM grid in the MW region only a couple of times this season.
I'll be really pissed if this is the case. >:(
I've sent a letter to Kevin Elliot in hopes of stopping the madness. I just got into racing a single last year and have been having a lot of fun. I really don't like the idea of having to race against the SVs, there's just no point. I might as well enter my MuZ in GTO.
I don't see why there is a problem with keeping the class structure the way it is. They seem to run a lot of these smaller classes at the same time anyway. With the new scoring system you would think it would be easier to keep track of these smaller classes.
Is it really such a burden on CCS to have these classes?
As it is we run ltwt with thunderbike so that eats no additional tracktime. Middleweight sportsman usually has all of the lightwieght bikes racing up a class and a half decent field. Maybe let the other classes mentioned run with one of these classes to tighten up the daily schedule, and still have two decent races to run. I'm just a newbie but I learned quite a bit this year. I have no desire to mix it up in the 600 class. Another year or two in the lower classes to learn and I may move to an SV or whatever is the full class at that time.
I am looking to see what happens in the WERA classes to see if they have a better option. They may make a vintage class for the FZRs and then race up in something like lt wt solo so still get some track time and be done on Saturday.
A light wieght F40 would help old guys like me but still have the SV's so really just running for track time. Maybe a three way F40 all run at the same time with HW MW LT Wt.
Paul-
The displacement limit in MWSM is 500cc so FZR560 superbikes aren't legal in the class. What configuration does Jason have?
At VIR Kevin indicated that the max displacement on the 400 would go to 560 or 460. The 400 is very competitive (at least in SE and MA) in MWSM. The MuZ are'nt slow by any means and beat the faster 400's on a regular basis. I think the racing will be very interesting, there's just not going to be much of it.
The downside of it means that everyone will be running in GP or SB trim and that means $$$ for motors. You can buy an SV for what it costs to have someone build a 560 motor for you. That's a lot of money for one or two races a weekend.
A ltwt break in F40 might be an idea. I know at least 3 or 4 riders that would be interested in that.
QuoteThe displacement limit in MWSM is 500cc so FZR560 superbikes aren't legal in the class. What configuration does Jason have?
Hmmm. I don't know. I assumed it was a 560 only because he was so fast at RA. I didn't know that a 560 displacement isn't legal.
Jason's a very talented rider. It's probably just a 500 or maybe 400. Anyway, he spanked us all.
A 560 is crazy easy to build if CCS would just let you use the cases from the YZF 600 like WERA does.
Here is the recipe...
YZF600 rods, crank and cases.
FZR600 pistons, barrels and head. (YZF head will also work)
Have Falicon bush the YZF rods to fit the FZR6 piston pin.
Assemble, add flatslides and kick butt!
The problem is that CCS makes you build this combo on FZR400 cases, which runs into a bunch of machining to get the crank to fit. Since WERA already allows the YZF cases, it shouldn't be too hard to convince Kevin to change this rule. However, the rule will not change unless FZR owners unite and petition for it. Since it seems that you're running out of classes to race the little Fizzer in, you probably have some decent leverage. It's up to you guys...
This is the F40 Lightweight breakdown that I received from Kevin Elliot
F40 LW Am and Ex
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement
2 stoke,liguid cooled, up to 450cc
2 stroke, air cooled, unlimited
twin,air cooled, up to 1000cc
twin, aircooled push rod, up to 1210cc
twin, liguid,up to 700cc
4 cyl,liguid,up to 565cc
4cyl,air,2 valve, up to 750cc
hope this helps you out
>:(
I'm drafting my letter to Kevin right now.
SAVE THE SUPERSINGLE!!!
Hopefully the powers that be will not go thru with it. Whatever happened to the Skorpion Cup? Wasn't with CCS right? Maybe bring that back or even create an SV cup? SOMETHING!!??? ???
"A 560 is crazy easy to build if CCS would just let you use the cases from the YZF 600 like WERA does"
That sounds like the ticket to me. Paging all FZR owners, let's talk with Kevin about this!!!
Once again, CCS is trying to drive off there customer base and doing a mighty fine job of it as always. ::)
You think so? I think this may open up a bit more time on track, which may make it easier for the majority of racers. Not saying I like the idea, but the day is limited.
Yes I do think so. More time on the track isn't really needed for anyone with a 600 or SV because you can already run a dozen times in a weekend. The riders that are truly limited on track time are the 1000cc inlines and the lightweight bikes. They have very few classes that they can be competitive in which limits you to 2 or 3 races per weekend where you actaully have any chance. Cutting this back to one or two would essentially make racing not worth it anymore as they have already cut the availability of Friday practice and all of the practices taht I have seen have been VERY crowded. I raced a 600 my first year and like racing the 125GP bike a lot more. When forced to make a decision between two decent races a weekend on the 125 or as many as I want on a 600 I will gladly choose neither and take my support and money elsewhere...
Quote"A 560 is crazy easy to build if CCS would just let you use the cases from the YZF 600 like WERA does"
That sounds like the ticket to me. Paging all FZR owners, let's talk with Kevin about this!!!
I suggest that you draft a rule change to allow the YZF600 cases for the 560 combo. When I was racing Fizzers, I discussed this at lenght with Kevin. He had suggested that I draft a rule change and send it to him, but by then I had moved to Middlweight so I never did it.
At any rate, Kevin is familier with this issue. A well written proposal should fly. Try posting on the FZR message board to get a greater response. If you write a good proposal, post it, and ask everybody to sign and forward it, you should be able to get the rule changed.
In 02, my 560 was the fastest amateur lightweight at Daytona. I weigh 250 lbs. Do the math...
QuoteThe MuZ are'nt slow by any means and beat the faster 400's on a regular basis
Stock, yes they are. My MZ that I raced in the Skorpion Cup Series made 42HP on a Dynojet Dyno. But now that the series is gone, there seem to be very few that are stock. Those could beat FZR's.
MJ, the Skorpion Cup Series was with AHRMA. It was a purse paying class too. I raced it and made good money in 1998. It won't really return without there being a completely separate class for it, the bikes are slow as you know, and contingency money for it. It costs a lot to do that, and sales of the Skorpions haven't been extraordinarily brisk.
QuoteI don't see why there is a problem with keeping the class structure the way it is. They seem to run a lot of these smaller classes at the same time anyway. With the new scoring system you would think it would be easier to keep track of these smaller classes.
Is it really such a burden on CCS to have these classes?
Is it a burden? Well, if you have been around a long time, you would have seen the deterioration of track time. Practice isn't much more than a warm up. No heat races, shorter races. These are the results of all the added classes.
Additionally, with all the "slower" bikes classes, it has caused some riders that were in the lightweight practice to move to amateur or expert practice sessions. So, now rather than SV's trying not to hit VTR's and the like, you've got R1's and missile 600s trying to not hit SV's or Ducati F1's.
QuoteIs it a burden? Well, if you have been around a long time, you would have seen the deterioration of track time. Practice isn't much more than a warm up. No heat races, shorter races. These are the results of all the added classes.
You'll have to excuse my ignorance of how CCS operates a normal weekend outside of Roebling Road which are all twin sprints. All my other races this past year were Florida region which is way different.
This I how I remember a weekend going when I started racing over 10 yeras ago. Practice on Saturday til about 2:00 or so then run the GT races. If there was time left they would run a session afterwards. That normally got you 4 sessions on Sat 5 if there were no red flags in the GT races. Sunday you would get 2 sessions before the races started.
I had thought that lack of practice time was due to running the twin sprints not the number of classes.
Lately the races have been so poorly attended you'd think CCS would do whatever they can to get racers on the track. While WERA is reorganizing their structure and schedule to help the LW bikes CCS is doing just the opposite. I can remeber going to Daytona at the end of the year and the place was packed and the grids were full. The past two years the place was a relative ghost town.
Overall I'm not very happy with the way CCS is being run at the top. The officals at the track are great. It pisses me off the way the rule book is ignored and bikes are allowed to run in classes they were never meant to be in, RE: Nate's BMW and some Euro only bikes in sportsman. When I decide to race a class I look at the rule book and determine the best tool to use. Then later on in the year someone says oh yeah this is legal too. Then even worse than that is the same person DQing you after they said your bike was legal.
The other thing that is getting at me right now is that we have this thread and another 3 page thread about the fuel rules and not one comment from a CCS official about any of it. From what I see they don't care what we think, they are going to do what they want. Hell I see Sean Clarke on this board more than Kevin Elliot. I think that will have a big effect on where I spend my racing money next year.
QuoteMJ, the Skorpion Cup Series was with AHRMA. It was a purse paying class too. I raced it and made good money in 1998. It won't really return without there being a completely separate class for it, the bikes are slow as you know, and contingency money for it. It costs a lot to do that, and sales of the Skorpions haven't been extraordinarily brisk.
I highly doubt Skorpion Cup will return, especially since MZ discontinued producing the entire Skorpion line of bikes. There's still AHRMA's Production Singles class for those with stock MZ's, and Supermono for those with modified MZ's. Still, not much racing compared to the CCS LW Sportsman & Supersingles classes, especially for those of us here in the SW.
QuoteThis I how I remember a weekend going when I started racing over 10 yeras ago. Practice on Saturday til about 2:00 or so then run the GT races. If there was time left they would run a session afterwards. That normally got you 4 sessions on Sat 5 if there were no red flags in the GT races. Sunday you would get 2 sessions before the races started.
I had thought that lack of practice time was due to running the twin sprints not the number of classes
No, I think that's the way I used to remember CCS weekends. There are more classes now than there used to be for smaller, unique bikes that just don't have a much of a following here for racing.
As for anyone replying about my fuel rules proposal, I really don't expect a reply on the message board from Kevin Elliott. I have made my proposal, I've tried to get people on board with it. I seem to be the only one that actually recognizes what the rule really means.
What my beef will be is that if racers fail to go to my site and download it and read it and voice their concernts. CCS will not even think of making a change unless they feel there is any voice from the racers.
So, my dissappointment will be with the racers.
I offered to go to the CCS meeting on November 15th as a representative for riders...I'm not saying I AM representative of riders, but I'll at least voice some opinions. Although many of the people that do the weekend work for CCS at the races are good people, I still don't necessarily feel that they understand what we feel are needs for changes, etc. I think in the Midwest, we do feel as though we're rushed out of the weekend in order to get everyone home rather than have a great event.
QuoteWhat my beef will be is that if racers fail to go to my site and download it and read it, CCS will not even think of making a change.
So, my dissappointment will be with the racers.
Dave - I still don't understand why this is an issue. I have never heard it raised in tech. No one seems to be policing it. No one seems to care whether it's policed. Why raise a fuss?
Well, its a rule. Which, for competition, is like a law, right?
A rule should be reasonable and enforceable. Additionally, a competitor that breaks a rule should feel that there is:
Potential to be caught.
A potential for retailiation from the sanctioning organization.
The retailiation should be in a form a punishment that serves as a general and specific deterent to future rules breaking. Specific in that the one breaking the rule will know better than doing it again. General in that those that might think about doing it won't do it.
The rule exists and we're all supposed to play by the rules. If not, I'll start running F40 for practice. How about me running lightweight grand prix on my 600?
But why should there be a rule in existance that does, in fact, eliminate pump gas (the most common fuel for competitors), unleaded racing fuels, leaded oxygenated racing fuels (usually a logical upgrade of fuels for competitors), and most commonly available leaded racing fuels?
Regardless, any competitor could feel very confident that they could do a fuel protest on almost any other competitor and "win". It's not right.
"RE: Nate's BMW and some Euro only bikes in sportsman."
Who's BMW? Are you talking about me?
I see your point though, and agree. I don't think my bike (81 CB750) should really fit into a class in CCS, but it does.
Nate, I don't think that was meant for you.... ::)
The sportsman classes were intended for the more unique motorcycles: non sport bikes, "vintage" race bikes, etc.
Combining some of these classes will hit me hard with my H1. My H1 is a 500cc two stroke...it fits in lightweight sportsman. Since it's from the 70's, has dual shocks, I think that's a good fit. But seems like more current bikes, like the FZR400, are coming in. Well, that pretty much knocks the wind out of my sails, but I wanted to try and run the bike in Thunderbike anyway...now it will just cost more.
What to do...
I was talking about Nate Kern's Boxer Cup bike. Sorry if you thought I was calling your bike a BMW. 8)
I really don't understand why these classes are so poorly attended. I don't want to ride a bike that needs two sets of tires over a race weekend. I can't afford it. On the plus side, with the exception of March Daytona in the rain, there was always close racing with me and the other guys in LW Sportsman and Supersingles.
As for having Kevin Elliot comment on this or the fuel rule , I think it would be nice if we knew what CCS's reasoning is behind the rules. You would think CCS could use this board to their advantage.
Well, I can't speak for Kevin Elliott, but I can say some things that I have talked to him about. First, new classes are usually given a couple of years to work themselves out. I wanna say that Lightweight Sportsman has been around three seasons. Probably the same for Supersingles. I know that I got Kevin to make a change to Lightweight Sportsman so that I could run my H1 in that class, but I still haven't got the bike done.
So, any changes he's considering there is related to the fact that in the whole CCS market, there just aren't enough entries.
On the fuel rules side, the original proposal to change the rule came, I believe from the north east. The intention was to try to limit the usage of expensive fuels in racing. However, whoever actually wrote the rule had no understanding of how restrictive it was....I.E. pump gas is illegal, most common fuels at race tracks are potentially illegal, and no one has testing equipment.
Have the Sportsman rules been finalized yet? I'd like to spend some of my Christmas vacation building a new motor but I kinda HAVE TO KNOW WHAT TO BUILD FIRST!
You might want to try to talk to Kevin Elliott and see. He'll have the heads up on it all. I haven't seen anything in hard copy.
Quote>:(
I'm drafting my letter to Kevin right now.
SAVE THE SUPERSINGLE!!!
I guess I need to check in here more often :-/
I just got my November 30 Issue of The CCS Newsletter and see that my racing class Super Singles is now gone gone gone and I have to race against
Single - Liquid Cooled 2-Strokes - up to 515cc!!!
Single - Two Stroke Air cooled unlimited
Displacement
Twin - air cool - up to 900 cc
Twin - Liquid cool - up to 700cc !
plus fours of up to 500 or 570cc depending on year
Argh! there goes any chance of being competitive.
Twins and 4's will kill the Singles. >:(
Ryan
:-/ I know how you feel brother!! :-/
I don't remember who said it but the quote went something like 'just think of how mad the SV riders will be when they see an MZ passing them...'
Quote I don't remember who said it but the quote went something like 'just think of how mad the SV riders will be when they see an MZ passing them...'
I've watched Elaine pass her share of SVs. It will be a little tougher for her with the expert SVs next year...but she'll get back at them in LWGP with her TZ.
So does this mean since new Ultra-Lightweight Superbike class is no longer a "sportsman" class, it will award select combined overall points? I plan to be out there on the new CR500 motard ;D
-z.
QuoteKevin Elliot....!
I can't find his contact information at CCS website - anyone want to give me his email?
People over at Thumperpage.com want to comment too.
QuoteI can't find his contact information at CCS website - anyone want to give me his email?
People over at Thumperpage.com want to comment too.
kevinelliott@clearchannel.com
Although, what's done is done. The rule has been changed, the old classes are gone, and the new class is in place. Sad but true.
QuoteSo does this mean since new Ultra-Lightweight Superbike class is no longer a "sportsman" class, it will award select combined overall points? I plan to be out there on the new CR500 motard ;D
-z.
Too bad you're a YPS next year...I'll be on the grid several rows in front of you. Guess I'll just have to make it my goal to lap you in that race. ;D
Quotekevinelliott@clearchannel.com
Although, what's done is done. The rule has been changed, the old classes are gone, and the new class is in place. Sad but true.
Thanks MZgrl - guess now I won't get to try to take away your National Title for SuperSingles.....
:-[
QuoteThanks MZgrl - guess now I won't get to try to take away your National Title for SuperSingles.....
:-[
Yeah, and I won't get to defend. :(
QuoteYeah, and I won't get to defend. :(
Dang, that leaves me out as well!! You are the reigning champ!! :o