Motorcycle Racing Forum

What do you guys think of the National / Pro racers like Team Valvoline, Hooters and Arclight showing up and racing at the ROC and winning the national championships instead of letting the true privateers battle it out for the win?

Many of these guys dont even have a handful of points or a regional championship. But because they get paid to do this day in and out, are bank rolled and some may even have factory support, they grab the victories away from the true club racer / privateer who has fought all year, using his own bank to get that championship. And many times, leaving them to settle for outside the top 3 and some cases out of the top 5. Some of these teams just do the races to test and tune in preparation for the FUSA and AMA races.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=7621

Not to mention, some of these guys are the same ones griping about the privateers being backmarkers at the AMA races.

Does this seem unfair to anyone or are they all considered privateers in these ranks unless you have one of the big 4 in your name?

Doesn't rub me the wrong way.

It's competition, and if they can win from the back, then I didn't go fast enough.  I don't think I've heard Rapp complain about back markers, if that's who we're using as a reference.

As an expert, you're on par to race at that level, or at least the competition can be that good.  

At what point do you call a guy not eligeble?  Scott Greenwood is a good guy.  Most people would call him a privateer.  Does have a good effort behind him, but he did win the AMA 600 Supersport race at Loudon a couple of years ago.  I don't think he should be counted out, and I think that he fully expects to work to beat Rapp, et al.

Didnt mean to come off negative there Dave so I edited my post.

Nah, I didn't think you came off as negative.  It's kind of a common question.

Everyone seems to be more sensative to it now than what it was like years ago.

I started racing in 1987.  Then, it was very common for guys to try and travel all around the country to make Suzuki money.  Regularly, I would see:  Scott Russell, Jamie James, Doug Polen, and a host of other guys beat each other over the head.  

All I wanted to do was be an expert so I could try and race against them.  Try to measure up.  There isn't a lot of money in motorcycle road racing, so the difference between an expert and a "pro" is pretty negligable.

When someone goes "national" it doesn't necessarily mean that they are any faster.  But they are trying to build something in a different arena.  Might make them faster as they have to race against all the other "big fish".  You learn quick or go home.

i owuld have to agree to a point...sure they can come play with us and get seat time but when it comes down to the race and a championship that someone else has worked for all you they need to pull off on the last lap or something. it's not fair to us to have a "pro" come in and take that away. I mean i'm not saying all AMA guys there just should be some point at where they can't do it a t this level

Actually if guys like rapp had any class they would pull in on the last lap , if they in fact are using the track time for practice. Maybe ask John Ulrich /

So you've got a pro ride, things are going pretty good, you're a happy guy.
You do your pro races, stop by the local CCS races on your off weekends to poach a little Suzuki or Yamaha money.  Hey.  It improves the locals to have to try and beat you, right?

I'd KILL for a National Championship.  It's the highest goal in racing that I aspire to.  On my budget and at my level of ability, I shouldn't have to beat pro riders for a club racing championship.  That's just wrong!

QuoteActually if guys like rapp had any class they would pull in on the last lap

I agree! CCS guys have worked hard all year to get to this race. This is for the National Championship! It's their reward for the season. What does it mean for a AMA pro rider to win at the ROC? Not as much as the up and coming expert. >:(

QuoteActually if guys like rapp had any class they would pull in on the last lap , if they in fact are using the track time for practice. Maybe ask John Ulrich /

You nailed, it 4&6 - it comes down to class.  You can't write rules about it no matter how hard you try.  Class is about knowing what the right thing to do is, and knowing when to do it.  

If you're a pro, and you're at a certain level, you know it. You also know what the right thing to do is.

Like i said before i would have no problem racing with them...they will only make you faster.. but also like i said before they need to pull off on the white flag lap

Come on guys, you can't be serious! How would you explain to everyone back home that yeah I won a National Championship but the guy in front pulled over to let me win.

There is no easy answer for this one, it's something that all "amateur" sports struggle with.

I was standing at the pit wall when Rapp came in after winning the 600 race on Sat. I then witnessed the tongue lashing he received from the wife/girlfriend of one of the riders he beat. Rapp and his crew showed real class by not responding to the unclassy display of the woman. I get beat all the time by riders that have way more money than I and should be in the expert class but they are following the rules so I take it. There is no way to make it fair for everyone. Even if we all raced the exact same motorcycle someone would have more money to spent on track time, training, etc.

Yeah, I fought this battle several years ago, and got hammered for even considering that the CCS level of racing be a place for a certain capped level of competition. (Same for WERA Sportsman)

Maybe you can convince CCS not to give a FUSA and a CCS license to the same person, but that would only stand to raise entry fees, as less riders could participate in each series.  I don't think anyone needs that.

It seems justified that if I race an AMA race, that I should finish DFL.  But where is the series for the up-and-coming, not the proven?  There isn't one.

Busch Car guys complain about the Winston guys that run with them... even call them Busch-wackers.  When there is money and titles on the line, everyone is open to do the same thing, it just sucks that I have to have a day job, so I'm more jealous that I'm not 18 and a supported rider, so I want something where an older, fatter, me can still do well. (WERA Vintage, here I come!)

So, if you don't like the Nat'l championship structure of an organization, there's only one thing that you can do...  Don't attend.  If only the pro's show up to win a CCS/Sportsman championship, then you may see a "paradigm shift" to make it more geared towards the masses, not the elite.  The sooner that you understand that the only thing that matters is REVENUE, the sooner you will be happier with many things in life, not just racing.

But, if you enjoy riding for the sake of riding, then show up, and gloat that you raced with the pro's.  Sometimes, you can even beat them, because they fall down, too.

$0.02

The way I see it, if we are allowed to play in their sandbox, they should be welcome in ours!

just don't race MW or HW bikes!   No national guys in the LW classes!      SVs for everyone!   (unless rich oliver shows up....)

QuoteThe way I see it, if we are allowed to play in their sandbox, they should be welcome in ours!

Well, yeah, sure - why not?  And red shirted 2nd year college kids should be allowed to go play in the pro leagues for two years, and then come back and finish up at Ol' Miss.  Makes sense to me... ::)

QuoteWell, yeah, sure - why not?  And red shirted 2nd year college kids should be allowed to go play in the pro leagues for two years, and then come back and finish up at Ol' Miss.  Makes sense to me... ::)

Or for that matter, why not let white platers run against the Ams?  

QuoteOr for that matter, why not let white platers run against the Ams?  

My point exactly CCS nor WERA let Experts run with the novice class well the way i see it is it's a ladder AM then to EX club level then a little higher you go to FUSA and WERA Nationals then up just a bit moreyou go to AMA supersport or a class like that then AMA superbike then World supersprot then World Superbike and then your Moto GP...nad maybe a couple little things i didn't say...but..now you tell me what would you think if you were Bostrom, Yates, Mladin or any other "PRO" racer and Rossi decides he wants to run AMA ..i mean i know i'm going way out there..but really i'm not it comes down to the point of it all and that would be the same point there is a reason there are different classes and org's ... like i said before if they just want some seat time fine...come play..then pull off. as for the comment  about what would i say if i won a national championship because another rider pulled off.. well if that rider was Rapp or Hayes hell yeah i would not mind one bit..i would even go tell them thanks after the race

The way I see it, the Race of Champions is not a Championship. It's a race, just like any other. If you tell me you're the national champion of a class because you won one race at Daytona, I'm going to laugh in your face.

A championship only has meaning if it's something you had to work for throughout the whole season.
I mean, really, why should the AMA run 8 race weekends. They could have one race and voila, the winner is the national champion.
One race at Daytona means you won a race, I couldn't care less how the semantics are arranged.
I had a lot of fun traveling across the country in '95 to race the ROC at Daytona, even including the struggles I had with the bike, but even then as a class champion I had no respect for the National Championship as a one off.


I would be embarrased to have a ROC championship trophy amongst any AMA trophies I might have won previously.

Could you imagine if someone asked, "Hey, what's this trophy for", and having to reply "Oh, ummm, I went to Daytona and won a race against a bunch of club racers, so I'm the National Champion.", "I thought you raced top 10 in the AMA?", "Ummm, well, uh, I needed the money?".  

You do realize you're talking about racing right?  A sport?  Competition?  

You really feel that even though you aren't faster you should be labeled as being the fastest?

So, you get your wish and none of the fast guys can race against you - where is that line drawn?  What happens when you're the fastest guy and the rule is changed because the slower guys want to be fastest too.

This is racing.  Either race or go home.  If all you want to do is circulate without challenging yourself against faster riders go ride track days.

We separate people based on experience level not speed.  There are fast yellow plates and slow white ones.

Oh yeah, as long as there is money in a class all bets are and always have been off.  

here's the kicker:
when Griff anounced the winner of EX sportbike at the awards ceremony, Rapp wasn't even there, so Griff asked if anyone could accept for him and I yelled out... "yeah, Jesse Janische can because he won that race!"        silence.
it was awesome.
lil thorny.

Quotehere's the kicker:
when Griff anounced the winner of EX sportbike at the awards ceremony, Rapp wasn't even there, so Griff asked if anyone could accept for him and I yelled out... "yeah, Jesse Janische can because he won that race!"        silence.
it was awesome.
lil thorny.

Priceless! Way to go Benji! ;D

QuoteYou do realize you're talking about racing right?  A sport?  Competition?  

You really feel that even though you aren't faster you should be labeled as being the fastest?

So, you get your wish and none of the fast guys can race against you - where is that line drawn?  What happens when you're the fastest guy and the rule is changed because the slower guys want to be fastest too.

This is racing.  Either race or go home.  If all you want to do is circulate without challenging yourself against faster riders go ride track days.

We separate people based on experience level not speed.  There are fast yellow plates and slow white ones.

Oh yeah, as long as there is money in a class all bets are and always have been off.  

I'm sure Steve Rapp, Jason Disalvo ect... Are very proud of their CCS National Championships. ::)  Give me a break!

YOur argument is that the AMA guys could care less about wining the championship?.. well then they need to stay off the track!!!! The club level guys DO care about it...it means something to them... if they don't care about the race and only want seat time..great more power to them... make it a good practice and they should decide practice is over before the race and come on in.... if US yellow plates start winning everything you can bet your ass that the next season we will have white plates and do we get to come back to yellow and take some money from the AM class or just ride for seat time in the AM class?...hell no we don't !!

Quotehere's the kicker:
when Griff anounced the winner of EX sportbike at the awards ceremony, Rapp wasn't even there, so Griff asked if anyone could accept for him and I yelled out... "yeah, Jesse Janische can because he won that race!"        silence.
it was awesome.
lil thorny.

How DO you get your leathers zipped over those enormous balls of yours?  Too cool.  I'll have to buy you a beer when I see you next, Champ!
K3

QuoteYOur argument is that the AMA guys could care less about wining the championship?.. well then they need to stay off the track!!!!

Ok, someone was talking about revenue somewhere....

Sportbike pays a purse.  Rapp was looking for a paycheck.  I can't actually tell you what Rapp makes for cash racing, but I'm sure he's always looking for a raise.  

Amateurs racing experts?  Of course that doesn't make sense.  But once you have become an expert, you're in the club where you can race as a professional.  You could get an FIM license from the AMA, etc.  It still doesn't MAKE you fast.  That's something one has to do on their own.  

The SCCA has run offs for a championship just like CCS.  You're always gonna have ringers.  Still, to get all the better guys that have worked hard to race against each other when they never would have...it's still a cool event.  I have to go back to my experiences.  In 1993, in the races I was in, Yates, Estok, Gerry Rothman, Stu Morrison, Harrington and a whole slew of guys that I knew from the local Cycle News coverage (something that we still don't seem to have in the Midwest region...let's not get me too far off topic) and AMA Pro road racing were in the races.  I really could care less who I was racing against, I didn't have any money, I just wanted to beat them.  Sure they wanted to beat me.  It's a unique opportunity.

As for Rapp pulling off?  Well, yeah, it might have been the better thing to do.  I don't thing the $200 raise did much for his bottom line.  Did Jesse Janisch care?  Nah, I think he would have liked to have beat him heads up.  Next time.

Back when I was a WERA sportsman racer, I attended every race in my region, and won two regional championships LW Twins and Formula 2.  

Lee Acree borrowed an SV for ONE Sportsman LW Twins race, and qualified for the GNF.  Needless to say, he walked home with the Sportsman LW Twins Nat'l Championship in 2000.  Good for him.

I wasn't so pissed that he could beat me, after all, he's fast.  What burned me is that he attended ONE regional event, then won at the GNF.  It really rained on the parade on all of us that had worked very hard at it the entire year.

So, I asked Mongo(Husband of WERA owner) if he would implement an attendence rule.  Something like you must attend at least 70% (i.e. 7 of 10) of the regional events(in at least one region) to be invited to the GNF for the Sportsman races.  There is already a points system in place, but for some of the classes, this doesn't always work out so well.

It never got implemented, so I've quit racing Sportsman & CCS events for Regional and National titles.  I'll show up when Suzuki's buying, but other than that, the GNF and ROC are typically a farce, especially when the pro's show up and walk away with the titles.  Again, if you just enjoy racing, then go.  If you're gonna get wrapped up about who won, then stay home.

-=-=-=-

So, now I'm a WERA National racer, at least on paper.  I attend mainly the National Endurance races.  I ride for 2 hours then go home.  I don't ride very fast for those two hours, but I would still be considered a "National Rider".

I would not like to see any rules imposed that state that I can not ride Sportsman/CCS Events, because I am not really not that fast.  Going the next step, up to the Pro ranks is where the line starts to blur for me.  There are riders that we all know that finish around 20th-25th in the AMA Superbike races, but they still compete in Sportsman and CCS races.  I don't think that they should be excluded, either.

So, I don't think rider exclusion is the answer, but can see where rewarding participation is.  But, all this does is make people say, "Do you want to win by attendence?" or "Why would you want to reduce the speed pool?!".

It's a no win situation.  Either you're the fastest at the finals, or you just enjoy the ride.

$0.02

That doesn't seem fair. I thought WERA/CCS was amatuer racing. Isn't AMA classified as Pro?

QuoteThat doesn't seem fair. I thought WERA/CCS was amatuer racing. Isn't AMA classified as Pro?

Yes it is ...that is my whole point

Where's the line between Amateur and Pro?  

The argument that Steve had about Lee - Lee wasn't running AMA at the time - so was he a Pro?  What about all the FUSA guys?  Are they Pro?  How about the guys that have run a couple of AMA rounds and have a full on AMA Superbike license, are they Pro?

Where do you draw that line?

And what's the point of proving you're the fastest of the slow guys?

Where do you draw the line? I don't know, that's your job :) But there should be some line drawn.

How about at the next level, which would be AMA. If you are good enough to qualify for AMA, you have moved beyond club racer status.

And it's not a matter of being the fastest of the slow, it's a matter of being the fastest among the guys at your level. Speed is relative, Opie and Acree are slow as shit compared to Rossi.

I understand why you allow those guys in, it makes WERA look good to have top names in the races, draws a good crowd. But it really isn't fair to have professionals racing against club guys.

The best thing I can think of is: ROC should not offer purses, and should not be a winner takes all event. National champion should be decided by a series of races. Also, someone who is not lets say top 5 in the regional standings should not be able to win the national championship.

We can take our regional points in a class, then devided by the events in that region, to determine the avg points for each race/event. Then add in the points earned at the ROC, whoever has the most points, win the championship. That would reward the most consistent finisher.

So if you finished 1st each time(and everytime) in your region, you will have 65 points. And you finish 2nd in the ROC, you will have 60 points, add them together you have 125 points.

So its like we are having 2 races, one based on the regular season, one is based on the ROC. If  you win ROC, you get the ROC plaque, then someone else may win the championship. This will weed out the show-up-once-and-win racers. If you don't race regular season, you can only get half of the score even if you win. and you will finish in the back in the championship.

What do you guys think?

QuoteThe best thing I can think of is: ROC should not offer purses, and should not be a winner takes all event. National champion should be decided by a series of races. Also, someone who is not lets say top 5 in the regional standings should not be able to win the national championship.

We can take our regional points in a class, then devided by the events in that region, to determine the avg points for each race/event. Then add in the points earned at the ROC, whoever has the most points, win the championship. That would reward the most consistent finisher.

So if you finished 1st each time(and everytime) in your region, you will have 65 points. And you finish 2nd in the ROC, you will have 60 points, add them together you have 125 points.

So its like we are having 2 races, one based on the regular season, one is based on the ROC. If  you win ROC, you get the ROC plaque, then someone else may win the championship. This will weed out the show-up-once-and-win racers. If you don't race regular season, you can only get half of the score even if you win. and you will finish in the back in the championship.

What do you guys think?

I thnk it's a great idea i would be for  it 100%

QuoteWhere do you draw the line? I don't know, that's your job :) But there should be some line drawn.

How about at the next level, which would be AMA. If you are good enough to qualify for AMA, you have moved beyond club racer status.

And it's not a matter of being the fastest of the slow, it's a matter of being the fastest among the guys at your level. Speed is relative, Opie and Acree are slow as shit compared to Rossi.

I understand why you allow those guys in, it makes WERA look good to have top names in the races, draws a good crowd. But it really isn't fair to have professionals racing against club guys.

Actually we let them in because the are WERA racers, the have a license and race with us.  Most of them do so much more than once a year (Steve's example was about once class in particular, Lee had raced WERA all season long).

I have drawn the line for WERA - it's at the yellow pleate white plate division.  However you don't seem to like the line I drew so I'm asking where you would draw it.

Speed is relative, you are either the fastest rider on a particular class of equipment or you are not.  But you are still describing a setup where you limit the talent pool so that you are the fastest of the slow guys.  Which proves what?  That you went around in circles?  That's not racing.

Philly - you don't like the olympics as a format for amateur sporting eveng championships?

Also - doesn't CCS have a National Points championship series already?  Called FUSA maybe?

It's a real simple fix , Let the Factory riders race but their finishing position doesn't count. If they are that good they will be in the lead anyway so who cares , 1st true non pro gets the win. I can remember when Harley brought out the sled of a superbike at Road America years ago and Chris Carr won the only race that a VR won. After being made to feel like a mope for winning the money at a local event with a factory bike i think he doanted his winnings to charity. Rapp could have pulled over , it's not like it is the spring event and he was testing for the AMA weekend.It is all about having some class.The sad truth is that CCS or WERA for that matter doesn't care about the average racer just how many paid entries they get, and by the way Carr also got smoked by a couple of local guys on ZX6R's that weekend, he could only beat the many NT650 hawks and the few old Ducatis.

QuoteThe sad truth is that CCS or WERA for that matter doesn't care about the average racer just how many paid entries they get, .

Seems to be true... i mean do you think they would let Smoltz come play ball for a local team? ..no way it would happen same point here

Back in '01 when I started doing trackdays this was the topic on WERA's board.  I see it this way:

yellow plates=AM
club level, national, and ama white plates=pro.

Every AMA, FUSA, and WERA National riderss ARE first experts.  If a regional EX qualifies for an AMA race, should they now not go back and race with other regional pros?  Why not?  If you have gotten your white plates you are a pro, maybe a pro with another job, ;) but your races are at pro level. You are the same as all other EX's including AMA & National guys.  Period.  

Regional Championships should be emphasized more, I agree, but if the big boys show up and clean house at a national, well so be it.  If you could, would you have gone and raced at Willow and tried to take their "pro" money this past weeekend?  Of course you would.  Why can't they do the same?

Time to stop wining.  I know Benji would agree with me, why not learn to ride w/them and maybe beat them!?  Want no national guys, go back and be a AM. ;)

QuoteThat doesn't seem fair. I thought WERA/CCS was amatuer racing. Isn't AMA classified as Pro?

I think CCS/WERA/MRA/CRA, etc is classified as Pro/Am racing.

QuoteHow about at the next level, which would be AMA. If you are good enough to qualify for AMA, you have moved beyond club racer status.

How untrue is that? Front running amateurs (let alone experts) can qualify at many AMA races. Back of the pack? Yes, but nonetheless qualify.

DAFAN, I kinda like your idea. hmm...
Peanut, well said.

When I talk to people who know nothing about racing, I describe it as semi-pro...I am not nearly good enough to make a living at it but some of the top guys do.  Another way I say it is equivalent to Class A baseball, with AA beng FUSA, AAA being AMA and Pros being the world series like SB and of course MotoGP.

Anyway, true factory guys (defined as receiving significant support from the factory or their American affiliate) should not win these races, imho.  Everyone else should be eligible...some of them need the paycheck and they should get paid for being great at what they do.

i do agree nut, if you want to win you have to beat the fast guys. if they have a CCS liscense, they can race. However, I personally wanted to see Janisch
win the sportbike race. so i was bias. My cousin once
got mad at Shawn Conrad for coming to Blackhwk and banging into him and others....but since then,
i've learned that that is how you get up front. those who stick it in there rather then standing it up, get to the checker'd much faster. I myself plan on winning
against those guys next year....why settle? you can always brake a heartbeat later, or get just a little better drive coming out of the corners. you found that out yourself this weekend didn't you? ;)
I'm not here to argue with anyone, we are certainly at a disadvantage to guys with even minimal factory support......but it is up to us to outride them. So we
must to what we must do. Ride the wheels off of it!!!
Benj. # 30

So we should just not allow the "pros" to finish - cool.  Now tell me which riders are pro, which ones are pro/am, which exactly are privateers and are they really pro?

Jimmy - I'd like you to explain to Evelyne to her face that her only concern in running WERA is the paid entries.  I thought you knew her better than that, evidently not.

Peanut - amen!

Once you go expert and run the classes where the OEM's have decent money all bets are off.  Personally I'd prefer the days of no contingency and people actually raicng because they like the sport but that doesn't seem possible anymore.

Sdiver - what about the fast guys that have factory level support but from another sponsor?  One of the biggest complaints people will have at our stuff is the Vesrah guys - yet they are not a factory team, they only ran a couple of AMA races for fun, and they've run WERA all year long - focusing on the National stuff but running club races when they could.  So where do they fit in to the no-pros ruling?

I don't think it is an issue of the support..that doesn't always matter we have a team i will not mention the name ..but they seem to have LOADS of money but do not do very well .. not sure how i would explain it but i would say that someone like Webber i would not have a problem with i mean yes he now has an AMA lic. but i would not say he was a Pro but someone like Rapp or LIvengood or Yates would be thoguht of as a pro and someone like that i think would not be right to allow them to race at club level now how do you think people would feel if Yates were to show up on a suzuki weekend and take all the money?

About the same way they'd feel when Team Vesrah shows up at a club race with an 18-wheeler full of bikes to poach all the Suzuki money.  Of course, I've seen some of our best experts beat Mark Junge at the local tight technical tracks.  At Road America or Daytona, the big money bikes just leave.
I worked for Mark Junge for a while.  He has a huge shop, a dyno room, six free motorcycles, free tires, ect.  Racing is his job, and he puts 5, 6, or 7 twelve hour days a week into his program.  He's earned his success and position, but wouldn't you call him a pro?  It kinda sux having to compete against guys like that at a club race.  Heck, the guy burns up more money in free tires in one weekend than I spend in a weekend all told!
Personally, I'm not good enough to beat guys like Junge, Higbee, Rapp, ect. (Even if we traded bikes!)  But some of our guys are.  It sucks to see them having to race these pros for the CCS National Championship while being at such a disadvantage equipment-wise.

QuoteAnd what's the point of proving you're the fastest of the slow guys?

Because you're racing a national "club" event, not an AMA event. If you wanted to compete with AMA level racers, that's where you'dd be, at an AMA event.

QuoteWhere do you draw that line?

Top ten finish in a similar AMA class in the last year? Two years?

I owuld have to agree to that...maybe that would be a good place to draw the line.. if you are racing as a full time job and are getting paid to do so..then you should not be able to race club level ...

I don't really have a problem with pros enter club events. By the rule book, anyone who has qualified experience can get an Expert license and compete. Including the pros.

I do have a problem with people (pro or not) show up and win one race for whatever reason, are named national champion. It makes the champion more hollow than what it already is.

Thats why I proposed a system where it takes equal accounts of regular season participation and national championship race. So only someone with regular participation can win a championship at the end of the year.

Mongo, we are not the same as Olympics. Olympics is widely recognized as the pinnacle of prospective sports. CCS/WERA/Whoever is just a series, there are always others to enter into which is just as prestigous, if not more.

CCS limit and require membership to comptete. The glory for a postseason should only belong to the regular participants. You wouldn't see a mid-level NCAA div I team show up and win the div III championship, because thats not their seires. If a pro wish to compete in CCS regional events and win a championship as a result, good for him, but to show up at Daytona and win, thats not cool.

So I came up with the idea of half regular season, half ROC. and to be fair, regular season should be taken as an average to account for regions that have more/less events.

Or you could assign points to the final regular season standings as if it is a race, and then add the points to ROC finishing points, and come up with a winner. I think that would be more fair, and weed out the ROC only entrants.

Finally on pro at club events. we have to dig into why they come and compete. If they like to race, then why stop them? If they are looking for a payday, then something has to be done. If you receive support from a manufacturer, you should not be able to get rewards/purses/contingency. If my company run a sweepstake, I wouldn't be eligible to win, would I?

Purses? Its a judgement call. What if I have lots lots of $$ and I just buy the best equipment. Would you call me pro? would it be fair if I show up and win purses? It happens, even in amatuer. I think personally I wouldn't take the money if that was the case. Supprot or not, if they qualify for that class, they should win the money. What if I have a spare bike and you don't, what if I get money from your family and you don't, there is no line to be drawn.

so I just like to see the national championship goes to deserving, participating racers. Otherwise, let em race

Dafan, looks like a good plan!

QuoteI owuld have to agree to that...maybe that would be a good place to draw the line.. if you are racing as a full time job and are getting paid to do so..then you should not be able to race club level ...

Cool, so that leaves out Mark Junge, but not Tray Batey or John Jacobi.  That also keeps out Larry Denning and Robert Jensen as well as some other.

Everyone - please go back and make a mental list of all of the places people have said to possibly draw this line, now tell me which one is the best and will make everyone happy.

well you will never make everyone happy.. not in anything  however i think the best was to do it is let them race fine... but like someone else said..if you have factory support like that then you can race but you can't collect any purse ...

On the whole contingency thing - a lot of the OEM paid riders are not allowed to earn contingency based on their contract, however riders like Rapp are not contracted to Suzuki, his contract is with Team Hammer.  So he actually doesn't ride for Suzuki at all, he rides whatever bikes his team puts under him.

What about times when Josh Hayes showsat a club race with his pickup truck and his GSXR750 that he preps, should he be told he can't race with us?

As for the Olympics - sorry but the ROC and the GNF are the pinnacle of Amateur Roadracing in the US.  It's where the factory teams look for the next fast guys.  In my analogy I was talking more about the GNF because like the Olympics you do have to qualify to attend and enter the event, and you have to qualify in your specific class as well.  I'm actually sorry that you have such a low opinion of your sport that you think the finals for it are that worthless.

Quotewell you will never make everyone happy.. not in anything  however i think the best was to do it is let them race fine... but like someone else said..if you have factory support like that then you can race but you can't collect any purse ...

That's nice.  What about the guys who feels anyone that has an AMA license shouldn't be allowed.  Is his opinion not worth following?

My point is that there is no one single proper way to do this.  Which is because people really only want to beat everyone slower than them - all of these complaints are NOT totally unbiased.  

As long as you go into any sporting event with the attitude that you don't have a chance, you never will.  This isn't college basketball, this is racing - by the way, I feel the way they have divisions based on skill level of a school is BS too.  You either are the fastest or you are not, being the fastest of all the guys that are slower than you doesn't mean anything, you proved nothing, it's a hollow victory at best.  

Quote.

What about times when Josh Hayes showsat a club race with his pickup truck and his GSXR750 that he preps, should he be told he can't race with us?

.

It's hard to find out where to draw the line.. but think of it this way.. what if Yates were to show up on his private bike to race at club level...that would not be fair to any expert out there unless it was a rule that he would not be able to take any of the money if that were the case and the experts knew he would not take the money then i bet they would be ok with it i know i would i could use him being there to make me faster but i would be glad that i would not have my money taken away by him

Why would it not be fair if Aaron showed up on equal machinery and won?

It's not like he hasn't done it before.  Repeatedly.  On lesser equipment even.

As for everyhting else you're saying - don't you think you might want to have white plates and run against them before you make such a sweeping judegemtn call on who should or should not be allowed to race - even if they are on basically the same equipment?

What's funny about all of this is that the majority of the faster experts are the riders who care the least.  They understand that racing is a contest of skill, and if they don't have what it takes they don't win the race.  They then ususlaly work their butts off to try and get their game to a higher level and go faster the next time.  

I'm curious - How many of you arguing here are Expert riders running in the top 5 week in and week out in a 600/750/1000 class?

Another question - seriously.  What do you guys feel is the point of racing?  As in why do you suit up, get on your bike, and go race.

I don;t think it's that they don't care...i think it's that they have been in this for a while and know that no matter how many people say something about it nothign \will be done .... as for me i could really care less i'm not fast enough to worry about anyone taking my money cause i wouldn't win any anyway.. lol. i just like to argue wi you Sean ;D .. but really it is a very valid point that it really unfair that they could do that...but again the question would be..where to draw the line..that is a hard choice to make.. i think they should not let anyone on a Harley come inside the gates with it while Real bikes are on the track.. LOL  ;D

QuoteAnother question - seriously.  What do you guys feel is the point of racing?  As in why do you suit up, get on your bike, and go race.

For me it's Fun... i'm too old to try and be fast...lol

QuoteAs for everyhting else you're saying - don't you think you might want to have white plates and run against them before you make such a sweeping judegemtn call on who should or should not be allowed to race - even if they are on basically the same equipment?

What's funny about all of this is that the majority of the faster experts are the riders who care the least.  They understand that racing is a contest of skill, and if they don't have what it takes they don't win the race.  They then ususlaly work their butts off to try and get their game to a higher level and go faster the next time.  

I'm curious - How many of you arguing here are Expert riders running in the top 5 week in and week out in a 600/750/1000 class?

Mongo, I am planning on putting on a white plate and try to run top 5 week in and week out next year. and I welcome the challenge to race against pros.

As for your observation that the fast experts don't care - I am not sure if they don't care, or they have just accepted as a fact of life, a fact of racing.

But remember, just because everyone accepts something, doesn't make it cool. What choice do that have? no one is allowed to move back to Amateur/novice to get away from the pros, so they have to put up or shut up. But that doesn't bar anyone else from having an opinion, and god forbid, a correct opinion?

And why do you have to be fast to be credible and to "deserve" to make statements, observations and opinions. I guess you would have to wait one more year, and I will post on this topic again, when I am a top 5 expert. or I will forever hold my peace.

The first words out of Jesse Janisch's mouth after Rapp took his championship away were, " I can beat him!" And I can't wait for the day he whoops his ass. Revenge will be so sweet.

With the organizations hungry for revenue there's no way they are going to turn down entries, especially at places like Daytona. So, they will continue to let anyone race as long as they pay the bills.

Do I like it that a guy with Rapp's experience and backing can show up and steal championships from the regular series runners? No, but there isn't a damn thing we can do about it until someone in charge of the series wakes up and puts a stop to it.

To turn their heads will take a letter campaign of huge proportions. I know I will be sending my thoughts to CCS/Clear Channel soon.

For Steve Rapp .... there's a 16 yr old kid with your name on his mind and some day soon you will be looking at his rear tire pulling away. Hopefully taking away a win you really want. ;D

I said nothing about who deserved to make comments - however everyone's opinion has a value.  And a racer who has not been through the situation they are complaining about's opinion is worth very little compared to a racer who has actually dealt with the situation themselves.  Why? Because you are making an assumption on how you possibly would feel - and what is fair or not is an opinion, not a concrete fact - yet you can't have felt it yet.  Sorry but the opinions of Expert racers who have lost championships to the people you feel are interlopers counts for a lot more when I am being asked to change rules and regulations.

When I said don't care I meant exactly that, I have talked to many over the years and the majority do not care, they feel that racing is a challenge and if you are not up to that challeneg you lose.  It's pretty simple.  Actually the majority appreciate being able to run against faster racers because it does nothing but improve their game.  There are a number that do care, and they usually run the LW and smaller classes.  My theory is they know they can't make it in the bigger classes so they choose a less competitive environment to prove themselves in order to make themselves feel better.  This goes right along with wanting to be the fastest of all the guys that can't beat you...  But that's a different argument altogether.

One other point while I'm thinking about it - Steve Clarks point about Buschwhackers is actually not valid since the top teams in Busch are the top teams in NASCAR (Rousch Racing, DEI, Hendrick Motorsports etc...) just with different drivers.  This means the Busch teams have access to the same info and resources as the Cup teams.

QuoteThe first words out of Jesse Janisch's mouth after Rapp took his championship away were, " I can beat him!" And I can't wait for the day he whoops his ass. Revenge will be so sweet.

So, the rider who it directly affected didn't have a problem with him racing huh?  Actually I think that Rapp as an example is pretty funny since he has been beat by people I'm sure he considers club racers, and it looks as though Jesse knows he can too.  

Sean,

I don't have a problem with Rapp or Vesrah Suzuki running.  My comments were aimed at the true factory guys.

If you are in doubt as to who the true factory guys are, just look at whether or not they get preferential treatment at AMA races.  If you run illegal oil pressure relief valve springs and only get fined a few dollars and a few points, you are a factory pro.  If, on the other hand, you place in the top 3 of a AMA supersport race and the AMA tears your engine down to the connecting rods, you are not a factory guy.  If you use scotch bright on your valve stems to clean them, and then get suspended for a whole season due to it, again, you are not a factory guy.

It's not as simplistic as that and JU's views are not always 100% reality.

QuoteJU's views are not always 100% reality.

  ;D    ;D    ;D

QuoteYou either are the fastest or you are not, being the fastest of all the guys that are slower than you doesn't mean anything, you proved nothing, it's a hollow victory at best.

     I don't agree with your opinion on this. I have played recreational softball almost every year since graduating high school. The teams I have played on were in no way exceptionally talented, but did well. I have to admit that winning the summer league, even at this recreational level, was a goal every year. Having only accomplished it a couple times and going on to tournaments and finishing well but not winning felt like we defenitly had achieved what we set out to do! We gave it our all and did our best competing against teams of similar ability. Would we have felt accomplished if we played against a Pro team and didn't score a run? I doubt it. Would it have been an accurate representation of what the league was about? I don't think so.

     Though I have just been cruising around the track this year for fun and not pushing, I have been a consistent top 5 expert finisher on a GSXR 750 in the past. Having been in front of a couple of the mentioned racers in NASB races in the late 90's, I do have experience with this subject. What I found was that these 'Pro' guys often times had equipment which was superior to what the average club racer could afford or obtain, things like tires, fuel, and suspension components (and needless to say motor). For me to go as fast as them I had to ride harder and closer to the ragged edge than they had to. If I had those resources available to me I could go faster, more easily and safer.

     The ROC is the tournament which competitors of similar ability go to and compete at to find out how they compare to others of similar ability from thru-out the country. As for the cherry-pickers who choose to show up, if that's what inflates their ego, more power to them! It's true that racing with someone faster than yourself will probably help you to get faster yourself, but that is if you can keep up with them. I remember watching John Hopkins (backed by Team Hammer) win several races at the ROC back in '99. He was so far ahead that he was leaving the infield as the 2nd place racer was entering the infield! I don't know how much the 2nd place racer was learning from that or how much of that lead was rider ability and how much was the bike? To me it sure looked like cherry picking.

     Not meaning to sound negative, but why is a Wera rep on a CCS board? I have heard nothing but bad about the Wera board (along with several others) and don't look forward to that atmosphere contaminating our board. Not meant as a personal attack, just curious as to why you are here?

QuoteWhy would it not be fair if Aaron showed up on equal machinery and won?  
 
I'm curious - How many of you arguing here are Expert riders running in the top 5 week in and week out in a 600/750/1000 class?

I think I'm there.

Yes, I don't care who shows up.  I'm there to pound on them.  

"Support" being a factor....

I had Kawasaki support for my road racing school.  So, because of that, I wouldn't be eligible to race according to some.  Not that it really helped my bottom line.  I still probably owe more than most people here.  The fact that I hadn't raced on a 600cc production bike for about six years before hand make a difference?  I was racing vintage bikes for people from '94 to '97.  Does that count as "supported"?

Mike, I don't think Mongo is a mud slinger, so he can be on the board...LOL!  And the racing community is small.  You've got to go anyplace you can to try and gain info.

As for resources being the thing that makes someone go faster...

My best example is Jerry Rothman.  Jerry did well in 1993 in the AMA series.  He had a part time ride with Yosh.  Had an offer from them for 1994, but he wanted something a bit better.  The Yosh program was small, but it was supposed to lead to something bigger.  Jerry decided to follow up on this Yamaha deal, which I think was supposed to be the Kinko's Yamaha thing with Pridmore.  Jerry's part fell apart at the last minute.  In an attempt to do something, Jerry, his brother, and TJ (guy that kind of has floated around between teams) went an picked up a ZX6E and a ZX7 from a dealership and went to Daytona.  You weren't required to have catch pan lowers on bikes, so they actually ran the stock body work.  They threw on a shock, did the best they could with what they could get at Daytona.  Jerry got third in 750 Supersport on that bike.  Ron Barrick was there for the tear down and said to me, "The bike was stock."  He'd of course know that seen so many bikes that "aren't stock".  

Point?  Skill and tallent still matter in road racing.  You still are responsible for setting up a bike and riding it.  And, even then, some people are more gifted and are genetically better in reaction times, sight, etc.  There are still things that cannot be accounted for at tear down.

 Here, Here,
 Dafan.... valid points.
SD, to reiterate, you still have to ride the bike. Skill
is key. How many times did you ride someone elses
motorcycle and run the circuit a little bit quicker?
Not that you are fast or anything ;) ;D, but certainly
more skillful with your vast amount of knowledge and
low center of gravity :o and of course, your staff!!
those of us priveledged enough to have ridden on or
near your staff know how important your bulging network is to our sport!!! ;D :-*
Inbedded and indebted to your staff,
Benji # 30

Mike - I'm here because I want to get input form racers in order to make our organization better.  The same reason I set up the WERA BBS.  As for it being bad, don't believe everything you hear, there is a huuge amount of valuable information being passed form racer to racer.  There's some silly stuff too but it's only words on a computer screen...

I guess my problem with the line drawing is that the true factory guys don't go club racing.  Steve Rapp is an in between guy really, and ask Jesse - was it Rapps bike that won him that race or his riding?  In my example about Josh - he does show up regularly to our stuff and races on a club level tuned GSXR750 - good club level granted - and his finishes are still the same as when he ran his club effort before the Attack ride - he wins.  So if he stayed or if he got a cool job riding bikes for a living there is no difference in the final outcome.  

Anyway, seriously - thanks for responding, like I said hearing from riders it directly effects does make more of an impact.  And while I may disagree right now, the information isn't ignored by any means.  I have been proven wrong before (althoigh I won't say when, can't bruise my own ego that much ya know).

Quote I have been proven wrong before (althoigh I won't say when, can't bruise my own ego that much ya know).

Yeah, my mom caught me when I was wrong once.....(sigh)once.

Who said it was wrong Super Dave, Doctor Ruth doesn't seem to think so ;D
Benj.

remember, mongo is the guy who condones wera national race winner staying novice, and winning every race they don't crash in the following year. go faster will be his remark. even though the "winning"rider starts the year 5 seconds faster than the next guy. it may be legal for this, and the steve rapps of the world to do this, but it doesn't make them honorable. at best, these blatant pro level guys should pull off.

rapp not even showing up for his trophy proves how pathetic the racket truly is. BW

QuoteThere are a number that do care, and they usually run the LW and smaller classes.  My theory is they know they can't make it in the bigger classes so they choose a less competitive environment to prove themselves in order to make themselves feel better.  This goes right along with wanting to be the fastest of all the guys that can't beat you...  But that's a different argument altogether.

Hey!  I resemble that remark.  Lightweights are people too!  With feelings and ...

Nah, I don't take it personal, anymore.  I did at the time, but now I realize that it doesn't matter.

I wasn't never fast on an SV, and wouldn't never be any faster on anything else.  Riding with Pro's, semi-pros, and pro am's is pretty fun.

I guess I never did gloat about passing Marty Craggil on my SV at Barber.  :D

That's why I love the WERA Endurance Series.  I can be fast enough to contribute to the team effort, and it doesn't matter who's faster until 4, 6, or 8 hours later.

QuoteNot meaning to sound negative, but why is a Wera rep on a CCS board? I have heard nothing but bad about the Wera board (along with several others) and don't look forward to that atmosphere contaminating our board. Not meant as a personal attack, just curious as to why you are here?

For one thing, a lot of the members on this board run WERA as well and are on the WERA board daily!  Contaminating your board?  Who says they're not the same ones that go from here to the WERA board.  Just because you are a representative of one organization doesn't mean that you can't learn from another and vice versa.  It's called sharing.  Both organizations have their pros and cons.  Both are good organizations.  The boards may be a little different but they are both good, informative boards.  Just my .02

QuoteFor one thing, a lot of the members on this board run WERA as well and are on the WERA board daily!  Contaminating your board?  Who says they're not the same ones that go from here to the WERA board.  Just because you are a representative of one organization doesn't mean that you can't learn from another and vice versa.  It's called sharing.  Both organizations have their pros and cons.  Both are good organizations.  The boards may be a little different but they are both good, informative boards.  Just my .02

YOU GO GIRL ;D

QuoteFor one thing, a lot of the members on this board run WERA as well and are on the WERA board daily!  Contaminating your board?  Who says they're not the same ones that go from here to the WERA board.  Just because you are a representative of one organization doesn't mean that you can't learn from another and vice versa.  It's called sharing.  Both organizations have their pros and cons.  Both are good organizations.  The boards may be a little different but they are both good, informative boards.  Just my .02

     Over the last year of being on this board I have seen numerous people state how this boards' general attitude was alot more respectful than some of the others, how opposing views on issues were actually discussed in a tasteful manner instead of pointlessly argued, and that needless name calling and antagonizing is kept to a minimum here (but don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a little spirited rivalry).

     I'm not saying that anyone is not welcome here, I just would prefer that those other things don't follow along. I can't once recall seeing someone post about how the WERA board was good, but I have seen many posts to the opposite. I suppose I should have gone and checked for myself before relying on the general opinion of the numerous posts I have seen in the past.

     When I made my comment about why Mongo was here it was because I found it rather strange that someone involved in WERA itself was on a CCS board asking questions about what riders think, I would have thought that would be something that you would be discussing with WERA riders. I personally don't care who uses this board, it's for all to share, it's not mine personally by any means. I enjoy thought provoking communication from almost anyone, and Mongo is expressing their view in a good way so far, I respect that. Sorry if I offended anyone by my statement, it was not intended to be taken in that way.

Actually Jesse doesn't care that it was Steve Rapp or any other rider that beat him in that race. All he cares about is winning, no matter who he has to beat.

Had it not been for one slight mistake by Jesse the race would have been a hell of a lot closer and maybe Jesse would have won.

Point still is that in my opinion Steve Rapp or any other racer with his experience and backing has no business taking the checkered flag at any CCS or WERA event. As for needing the money from contingency or purse.... read the lifestyle thing in
Roadracing World about Rapp. Yeah, he really looks like he needs the cash. Give me a break.

Quote...I can't once recall seeing someone post about how the WERA board was good....

The WERA board is good, it is very good. Perhaps the best board I've ever had the pleasure of frequenting.

In fact, when I was first learning about this whole racing business, I lurked on both boards trying to decide which organization to race with. I decided to race with WERA, mostly because the people seemed fun and genuine. I enjoy the witty, intelligent conversations found daily on the WERA bbs.

Sure, sometimes there are senseless fights, but that's what happens with a close family. The people are real.

WERA board is good.

CCS board is getting better. (mainly from the wera infidels coming here)

rapp = crap.

     Glad to hear that, at least there is finally some positive.  :)

QuoteThe WERA board is good, it is very good. Perhaps the best board I've ever had the pleasure of frequenting.

In fact, when I was first learning about this whole racing business, I lurked on both boards trying to decide which organization to race with. I decided to race with WERA, mostly because the people seemed fun and genuine. I enjoy the witty, intelligent conversations found daily on the WERA bbs.

Sure, sometimes there are senseless fights, but that's what happens with a close family. The people are real.

so I guess we are not fun and genuine huh... ::)

Genuine? Maybe.
Fun...no.  ;D

Let's just say the wera board allows people to let it hang out, to be themselves. The ccs board doesn't.

QuoteGenuine? Maybe.
Fun...no.  ;D

Let's just say the wera board allows people to let it hang out, to be themselves. The ccs board doesn't.

OK....

You know I would have to pipe up here.

I am the moderator on this board and perhaps a bit conservative, but there is a very good reason behind it.  The reason is that not only I read this board, but so does my daughter and other kids of racing families.  Tell me the truth, would you want your child reading some of the stuff on the other boards?  No.

Also, I like others, frequent these boards while at work (on breaks only  ;) ;D).  Work has certain standards as to what is considered an acceptable site to frequent.  I don't frequent the WERA or other boards while at work because some of those threads could be labeled as "mature."  Once that happens, no access to that site  :'(.

You can be yourself on this board, however vugarity and violence is not welcome and it is not needed.

Dawn   :)

Aren't we getting a little off the subject here?  ;D

Well said Dawn.

QuoteOK....

You know I would have to pipe up here.

I am the moderator on this board and perhaps a bit conservative, but there is a very good reason behind it.  The reason is that not only I read this board, but so does my daughter and other kids of racing families.  Tell me the truth, would you want your child reading some of the stuff on the other boards?  No.

Also, I like others, frequent these boards while at work (on breaks only  ;) ;D).  Work has certain standards as to what is considered an acceptable site to frequent.  I don't frequent the WERA or other boards while at work because some of those threads could be labeled as "mature."  Once that happens, no access to that site  :'(.

You can be yourself on this board, however vugarity and violence is not welcome and it is not needed.

Dawn   :)

And that's great.  That's what makes having the different boards worth it.  I believe that a racing board is for adults.  I can't fathom what children would be doing on a board that has discussions about races or bike set up, etc. but I'm probably just missing something. But that's my belief and is not shared by a lot of people.  The whole point is, having different boards to go to is great for everyone.

Oh yeah, and I love the WERA board too!

QuoteI don't frequent the WERA or other boards while at work because some of those threads could be labeled as "mature."  

Whoa!  Really?  Hey, anybody got a link to that WERA board?   ;D

The puppies and butterflies get a little old.   :P

QuoteWhoa!  Really?  Hey, anybody got a link to that WERA board?   ;D

The puppies and butterflies get a little old.   :P

That was funny!

Quoteremember, mongo is the guy who condones wera national race winner staying novice, and winning every race they don't crash in the following year.

That only goes for classes you're racing in.  

QuoteAnd that's great.  That's what makes having the different boards worth it.  I believe that a racing board is for adults.  I can't fathom what children would be doing on a board that has discussions about races or bike set up, etc. but I'm probably just missing something. But that's my belief and is not shared by a lot of people.  The whole point is, having different boards to go to is great for everyone.

The next generation of road racers are growing up now.  Jessie Janish is on this board and has been since he was 15.  My daughter is 11 and reads this board too.  I would be a hypocrite if I said no you can't read this or do this and then I did it myself.

The next generation of road racers are growing up now.  Where to they go to get the information and the atmostphere of this wonderful sport?  Sure there is RRW, but that isn't where most of these kids will be starting out.  There is the track, but that is only part of the experience.

Personally, and I know there are others on this forum, that don't like the foul language, and sexual innuendoes.  We get that enough from other sources like radio, tv, internet, ect.  It's nice to come to a forum like this.

Diversity is the spice of life.  The address for the WERA board is:

www.wera.com

Have fun.

Dawn   :)

Mongo! Something we agree on!! Alert! Alert!

There seems to be two different subjects being discussed here, without being recognized as different.

One is the subject of what a National Championship is, or should be. And the other is the subject of classes of racers.

Regarding National Championships, I think Dafan is on the right track. I think it would be more meaningful (and we'd all be happier) if it reflected a seaon's efforts and not just one race's results. Until CCS (and WERA) shows some interest in making a change like this, debating the formulaic details is somewhat moot. Maybe it would be better to just take the Regional Champ with the highest Performance Index in each class as the National Champ for that class....

The other subject is "Pro" riders (in quotes on purpose) running in Regionals. Complaining about that is sort of pointing at apples and complaining about oranges. The type of rider you are is somewhat irrelevant to what series you race in. If a series was designated as for a particular class of rider, that would be different. But that is not the case with either the WERA or CCS Regional Series. Those series are both offered as being for all racers.

That means what some of you are arguing for is really a 3rd class of license. Amateur, Expert, and Pro. With a 3-tier system, you would not allow Experts to race in AM races and you wouldn't allow Pros to race in EX races. But that's not what we have.

And, as Mongo keeps saying, if we did have it, what would be the criteria for moving from EX to Pro? It can't just be voluntary, or you wouldn't solve anything. It would be just like if you made the move from AM to EX voluntary. The majority would not be happy.

And if there is criteria for a mandatory move to Pro, what would it be?

My view is that some people might not like it, but Expert status is the moral equivalent of "Unlimited" class. Getting there means you have demonstrated the skill and experience to be on a track safely with any other racers. At that point, it's racing, not kindergarten.

At that point, FAIR means a clearly defined set of rules, equally enforced on all competitors. If somebody beats you, and did it without breaking any rules, then his or her victory was fair - complaints to the contrary are whining. Having a factory built bike (that is class-legal) is not unFAIR.

If the objective is to eliminate being beaten by "money" (i.e. factory-level spending), how about instituting a claiming rule? Make it where any of the top 5 finishers bikes can be purchased by any other competitor for 15% over MSRP for that model (like AMA Pro Racing sorta has in Supersport). That will eliminate the Rapps, Vesrahs, etc..

- Stu

ps. on National Championships. I've said this before. Why not take a cue from WERA and make it Invitation-only? Only the top 10 from each region. And move it to a venue like Road Atlanta, that is more central and more reflective (in terms of rider skill vs. handling vs. horsepower) of the tracks everybody raced on all year?

That would eliminate the one-race-all-year winners.

Now see Stuart, you've gone and changed this thread back to what it was originally about, and we were having fun changing the topic midstream!  ;D

QuoteJessie Janish is on this board and has been since he was 15.  My daughter is 11 and reads this board too.  I would be a hypocrite if I said no you can't read this or do this and then I did it myself.

I have a 17 year old and just couldn't imagine her finding anything entertaining or useful on the race boards at that age.  

QuoteThat means what some of you are arguing for is really a 3rd class of license. Amateur, Expert, and Pro. With a 3-tier system, you would not allow Experts to race in AM races and you wouldn't allow Pros to race in EX races. But that's not what we have.

Well i agree with you on some of it stu but not what i just quoted .. this is what we have in a way we only have 2 of the 3 classes you speak of but however Ex are NOT allowed to race against AM if they were it would be unfair as i think letting the "pros" race against our EX. But i do agree with the 3-tier system i think it owuld be a good idea...but again like you said unless they hear up and care...it's never going to happen

"ps. on National Championships. I've said this before. Why not take a cue from WERA and make it Invitation-only? Only the top 10 from each region. And move it to a venue like Road Atlanta"

How about Barber?  "By invitation only"--  Has a good ring to it.


Doug

Quote"ps. on National Championships. I've said this before. Why not take a cue from WERA and make it Invitation-only? Only the top 10 from each region. And move it to a venue like Road Atlanta"

How about Barber?  "By invitation only"--  Has a good ring to it.


Doug

Yeah but the cost of it would keep them from it only letting top 10 would not make them enough money after paying staff and the track

QuoteI have a 17 year old and just couldn't imagine her finding anything entertaining or useful on the race boards at that age.  

Oooops!  Off subject again!   ;D

Our daughter tells me to leave when it's time to put the rains on Paul's bike.  That's HER job to help dad.  The kid can't stand a lady bug in her hair, but allow her to get grease under her finger nails or help fix body work, she's right there.  Renee really is facinated with how things work.

She's such a gear head...  I'm in sooooo much trouble when she starts to drive.  

Dawn   ;D

Quote"ps. on National Championships. I've said this before. Why not take a cue from WERA and make it Invitation-only? Only the top 10 from each region. And move it to a venue like Road Atlanta"

How about Barber?  "By invitation only"--  Has a good ring to it.Doug

     A couple of possible obstacles would be the timing of the event at Barber and the top 10 situation. The weather during the ROC in Florida is usually good, but you do have the awful hotel costs during Biketoberfest.

     I am a good example of the top 10 situation not being the best situation either. I am top 10 regionally in 4 different classes across 3 regions (total of 12 classes), yet I was one of the slowest racers on the track this year! Not saying that I can't go fast, I just chose not to this year. I was even winning a number of regional class championships before I decided to back off and let others have them. For me I had 2 front row grid positions and my furthest back was the 3rd row at the ROC this year.

     Often times the fastest racers are not the ones that win the championships, but instaed the racers that were consistent all season and didn't miss any races. Using the Performance Index could help to fix this situation, but it also depends on how many races that racer attended. Some people just smoke everyone at a few tracks and then do OK at others. If some of the racers only raced the events they did good at then they would have a great P/I. I definately think your entire season should apply to the overall P/I, not just the races you did good at. To add a little twist to what others have been saying about racing with the pro guys, a truely good racer does well at ALL tracks, not just select ones! To figure in the events that some people don't attend just take the P/I from a particular class for all the events that person attended during the season and divide it by the total number of events in that region. So if you had a 10 race schedule, and raced 7 of those events, and won every race, you would have a 1000 P/I in the current format. If you averaged in the 3 races not attended, the P/I would now be 700 for the season (7 race wins would be; 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000 +1000 + 1000 = 7000 total P/I. Now take 7000 and divide it by 10 - which was the total number of events in the season. 7000/10 = 700 P/I average for the season). As a couple people have said, Expert level isn't for beginers, so step up to the plate and race the whole season! (or pay a penalty with your P/I for not racing the whole season)

     Something that may be being overlooked though is the fact that technically the ROC already IS an invitation only event, that is if everyone showed up! The only reason that non top 10 racers get to race at the ROC is because so many top 10 racers don't show up. So what would be different if the current gridding system was changed? You may eliminate the 1 event racers from showing up, but the grids sure would be small based on the current attendance of top 10 racers. I can only imagine how much entry fees would be then!

Paul, if he went, he would have been on pole all weekend (first place in three regions) in the amatuer LW superbike and supersport classes.  He would have been a prime canidate for an invitation.  However he was out of vacation time, so we didn't go.  

So there you go....  A prime example of a top 10 rider not showing up.   :-/

Dawn   ;)

Now personally I don't really care which way this whole things goes.  But after reading this whole post for like the past hour I have my own idea, if you guys like it well then good, if you don't then say something about it.

Why not have a series in a series.  Now I'm using the Midwest/Great Plains/Great Lakes; as an example only because I know all the tracks.  So why not have a Series of Qualifyers for ROC.  You must go to lets say;  Gingerman, Gateway, and Blackhawk once during the season.  Doesn't matter where you finish but if you do those 3 races once in the year, then you can go and race at ROC.  

Talk amounst yourselves........

My little idea

That's Kinda how WERA does it .. either you run your regional racesand do good and get an invite or you have to run at least one national race during ther year

QuoteNow personally I don't really care which way this whole things goes.  But after reading this whole post for like the past hour I have my own idea, if you guys like it well then good, if you don't then say something about it.

Why not have a series in a series.  Now I'm using the Midwest/Great Plains/Great Lakes; as an example only because I know all the tracks.  So why not have a Series of Qualifyers for ROC.  You must go to lets say;  Gingerman, Gateway, and Blackhawk once during the season.  Doesn't matter where you finish but if you do those 3 races once in the year, then you can go and race at ROC.  

Talk amounst yourselves........

My little idea

And you have such good ideas!  I think you may be on to something.

QuoteOooops!  Off subject again!   ;D

Our daughter tells me to leave when it's time to put the rains on Paul's bike.  That's HER job to help dad.  The kid can't stand a lady bug in her hair, but allow her to get grease under her finger nails or help fix body work, she's right there.  Renee really is facinated with how things work.

She's such a gear head...  I'm in sooooo much trouble when she starts to drive.  

Dawn   ;D

You have your hands full!  She sounds like a great kid and from her posts she sounds like she knows a lot more than some of the racers!  LOL

QuoteOne is the subject of what a National Championship is, or should be. And the other is the subject of classes of racers.

Regarding National Championships, I think Dafan is on the right track. I think it would be more meaningful (and we'd all be happier) if it reflected a seaon's efforts and not just one race's results.

That means what some of you are arguing for is really a 3rd class of license. Amateur, Expert, and Pro. With a 3-tier system, you would not allow Experts to race in AM races and you wouldn't allow Pros to race in EX races. But that's not what we have.

If the objective is to eliminate being beaten by "money" (i.e. factory-level spending), how about instituting a claiming rule? Make it where any of the top 5 finishers bikes can be purchased by any other competitor for 15% over MSRP for that model (like AMA Pro Racing sorta has in Supersport). That will eliminate the Rapps, Vesrahs, etc..

National Championships.  That's a hard one.  Regional championships are for those who want to go race a series for their championship.  Next step, race FUSA or WERA National Series.  Even if you make it by invitation only, you still run the risk of the guy that is at the bottom winning the national championship.  

Jesse has a good point...qualifiers.  I know WERA did this in 1988 when I was a "novice".  I raced one qualifier so that I could go to the GNF.  Problem was that the closest one was 600 miles from my house.  The others were further.  So, if you were closer to all the other qualifying races, you could have a better opportunity at going to the GNF.

Central location always has me baffled.  Again, if were talking about a National Championship run off:  SCCA, CCS, WERA...Location shouldn't matter that much.  Hotels will catch on if there is a big event in town regardless of the location and charge accordingly.  There is a certain amount of Tradition in the locations as they are.  That is undeniable.  Even for AMA Superbike races, there is a huge amount of tradition in locations and dates.  I'm not saying that I love the 1300 mile one way drive to Daytona, but I expect that that is the location for the CCS finale.  Same goes for the 900 mile one way trip to the GNF.  I know where it's at.  

Suzuki Cup Final one year was held at Riverside or someplace in California.  I remember that it ended up raining.  Don't remember if it was poorly attended or what.

Licensing?  Yeah, there might be room for a three tier system.  I've talked about that before on this board.  An amateur class for true amateurs, with no championships.  A stepping stone, or permanant sportsman, category for those who only enjoy racing, etc.  Yes, championships, but purse money would not be allowed.  And a Pro class.  Would have to have a purse for each race.  If you're gonna call them "pros", you'd want them to fight to make a living, but still allow them to get some kind of a return.  I think it would be good, but it would require a huge amount of work.  Additionally, the PRO TEAMS would need to put in some time too for the show to make it more of an event that would be attractive for a spectator to see.

Quote An amateur class for true amateurs, with no championships.  A stepping stone, or permanant sportsman, category for those who only enjoy racing, etc.  Yes, championships, but purse money would not be allowed.  And a Pro class.  Would have to have a purse for each race.  If you're gonna call them "pros", you'd want them to fight to make a living, but still allow them to get some kind of a return.

Makes sense to me.  And if an Amateur like Benji or Jessie wanted to go directly to pro, that would be an allowable choice.  This would leave a place open for guys like me who just love to race.  
No offense Mongo, but it would seem that your attitude is "fight your way to world champion or go home."  For every young lion who comes into this sport dreaming that dream, there are dozens of guys who didn't get to start racing until their familys and careers were established.  It seems to me that if you ignore the hobby racer, before long you won't have a racing series.

If we ignored the hobby racer we'd have gone out of business a long time ago and not mde it successfully for 30 years...

The vast majority of our racers who run for fun understand that this is racing and the fast guys win.  It's only a very small minority that seem to think we should start breaking things down so that everyone gets a National Championship.  

I still don't understand getting in to competitive motorsports and expecting to only run against people just as fast as you but nobody faster.  

Think of it this way--CCS is supposed to be like a grassroots org in the world of M/C racing.

Don't you think at some point you have to cut the grass?

I guess I'm kind of on Mongo's side.

WebCrush...what would you change and how?  It's proposal time for all the organizations.  You do have the opportunity to be heard, and we'll support something if it's reasonable.

As for the grass...

To me, as one that's been around for a while, seems like we got away from the grass and we're infringing on the flower garden or something.  Racing is racing, but something seems amiss in racer attitudes.  I guess when I was young, I just wanted to beat everyone.  Still want to now, but I'm old enough and I've done everything so much that I really don't care...K3, back to that I have fun thing, not that I go slow...

But if I need to amp it up, I can, or I don't.  Really haven't pulled out all the stops for ten years, but I'm thinking about it... ;D

I've suggested if before--anyone who's primary occupation is m/c racing and/or majority of income comes from m/c racing should be excluded from club (ie CCS, Wera local stuff, AFM, etc) events and denied a license for such.

Yes, that just might (actually WILL) eliminate some of my friends (such as Jeff Wood). But I think that those who's primary goal is to compete in national events (AMA, Wera National, F/USA) to club race for the sake of taking home all the money to support their program is more than just unfair, but almost seems like stealing candy from children.

Obviously, its always going to take money to race and nobody ever has enough to go as fast as they like.  At the same time, if you're going to show up with enough bikes to wad every one up in each race during a weekend, we need to start doing some rethinking.  Yes, the guy with the RedBull setup has too much money--but he still fits in a club racers (and isn't exactly winning either).  But Emgo, KneeDraggers, Arclight, etc are pro run shops with funds that most cannot compete with.  

The teams with the big money and big equip. usually also have the big talent.  It no longer becomes about guys wanting to win races but about organizations wanting to win races and championships.

I think my idea is fair.  I like to lsit one of my friends as Scott Greenwood and as we know, the guy is amazing on the bike, won the F/USA Sportbike Championship as well a number of CCS national and championships.  Has the guy killed himself to get where he is?  Yes.  Does he have a bottomless bank acct to do what he likes?  Definitely not.  The man has a job which he goes to like the rest of us schmoes.  He's had to do the job with sub par equipment, older bikes, etc.  I'm sure after this year he's definitely spent more money than he's taken in.  He's the definition of a successful club racer--one who has managed to dominate a local series, take national club championships, move onto the pro scene--and do it on HIS dime.  

I'm a huge supporter of Scott (even though I'm a moving chicane for him) and hope his success takes him to the next level--but once he quits his day job kick him the hell outa CCS. :D :D :D

So I go to Barber this summer.  I'm out in my first session, just trying to figure out which way the track will turn next, and Larry Freakin Pegram bounces off of me.  I guess he was trying to win the first test session of that Friday.
A beginning amateur shouldn't have to beat me to win his race, but I'm seriously, seriously seriously in the way of guys like Pegram, Rapp, Junge, ect.  I do all right at my home tracks, but when I'm out learning a new track I'm scared shitless by the guys going by at double my speed.
Al Unser Jr. doesn't stop by an SCCA race to cherry pick.  Those guys are able to play amongst themselves without the fear of being @sspacked by a pro.  SCCA offers Regional, National and Pro licenses.  Those who dream of making a living in racing move on.  Those who do it for fun stay at the National club racer level.  Again I'll mention that the fastest pro riders aren't the only guys with rights.  My CCS expert license presumably will allow me to go run the Daytona 200, but if I'm not fast enough, I won't make the grid.  If a guy is TOO fast, why is he allowed to make my club racing grid?
 Mongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.  Am I being unreasonable?  If an SCCA guy doesn't enter a Trans Am or Pro Atlantic race, then he can compete against other club racers all summer long.  This is not possible in bike racing, because once you get a white plate  you're ranked right alongside the best racers in the world.  What do you think, maybe 10% of the riders in expert are good enough to compete as pros?  So what is everybody else supposed to do?  Rather that giving me an answer designed to make me feel bad for not being the fastest, how about actually answering my question?  

QuoteSo I go to Barber this summer.  I'm out in my first session, just trying to figure out which way the track will turn next, and Larry Freakin Pegram bounces off of me.  I guess he was trying to win the first test session of that Friday.
A beginning amateur shouldn't have to beat me to win his race, but I'm seriously, seriously seriously in the way of guys like Pegram, Rapp, Junge, ect.  I do all right at my home tracks, but when I'm out learning a new track I'm scared shitless by the guys going by at double my speed.
Al Unser Jr. doesn't stop by an SCCA race to cherry pick.  Those guys are able to play amongst themselves without the fear of being @sspacked by a pro.  SCCA offers Regional, National and Pro licenses.  Those who dream of making a living in racing move on.  Those who do it for fun stay at the National club racer level.  Again I'll mention that the fastest pro riders aren't the only guys with rights.  My CCS expert license presumably will allow me to go run the Daytona 200, but if I'm not fast enough, I won't make the grid.  If a guy is TOO fast, why is he allowed to make my club racing grid?
 Mongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.  Am I being unreasonable?  If an SCCA guy doesn't enter a Trans Am or Pro Atlantic race, then he can compete against other club racers all summer long.  This is not possible in bike racing, because once you get a white plate  you're ranked right alongside the best racers in the world.  What do you think, maybe 10% of the riders in expert are good enough to compete as pros?  So what is everybody else supposed to do?  Rather that giving me an answer designed to make me feel bad for not being the fastest, how about actually answering my question?  

Great post Chris.... i agree 100% and that is a great point about the grid if we can't make the grid if we are not fast enough then why should they get to race with us if we are supposed to be the "same" why do we have to "make" the grid ... they are too fast for ours...

K3, not to change the subject, but i was all over Pegram at Daytona. He was riding (illegally) on his
ameteur teamates Red Bull #12 Ducati. it was cool to watch him carve thru the corners on that thing. then he'd pull away on the banks and i'd catch em on the brakes and smoke em in the international.
was about 4 tenth's off his times in practice. those
996(i think) were fast.  I'm thinken "who is this #12
with the Pegram leathers on?" then come to find out
that it was really him. here I am trying to run this joker down and it is freaken Larry Pegram. How cool
is that? talk about sandbaggen!!!

SD,
I know you got more in the tank... and I can't wait to
battle the master. Daytona really boosts the ego....
when you do well. I'm feeling very confident in my riding... I just hope that it lasts till next spring.
I too will hopefully be doing FUSA.
Benji.

he was paid to lead Eanes around, as he did at Barber. What better way to learn a track to have a pro go out infront of you in AM practice.

I have had my run in's with Larry Pegram at Daytona. The first time I raced at Daytona, went out in TC practice to learn the track slowly, and Pegram took exception to my  "slowliness" and surely "showed" it to me when he was passing me... one day I am going to return the favor when I go past him... I am waiting for that day

hey benji, you going back to daytona in spring? I am doing FUSA, and I would like to have a "re-match" (since I never had the first one haha) ;)

Personaly, I think it stinks!

In general they dont give advice, nor curtious t o the "little guy" in the pits.  They seem to come off thike they are better then the rest of us.  This may be a truth, but they dont need to rub it in.  They also have their own race circuit to run in, so how is it considered as competition when most of us are running against a open bank book, rather then a riders skills.  They have the best that money can buy, and all the time needed to refine how it works.  How do you compeat with that, and still keep the house, and feed the kids when we have a job that doesnt generaly accept what we injoy doing.  The only way to compeat with these guys is to buy the latest-greatest, best of everything, (morgage the house?)  And run everything you can without crashing going full-out everytime without any financial worries.What are the chances of that.  And thats if you can take the time off work.  Its not like these riders bought their bike, equipment, transporter, paying the driver while they fly, ect.ect.ect.  This is not compatition, they should leave are awards alone.  I dont care how they look at it.  They use us as their pratice tool, then they should be pointed as being in a pratice, not a race.  Otherwise, we need a new club to run in.  Send them back to WERA.  They took the fun out of the sport there, now their going to do it here if some rules are not put in place to keep them in there place.  Perhaps a seperate race just for them, which would cost more to participate in.  Then the average guy would have a choice if they want to run with them.  

Something has to change.  

QuoteI've suggested if before--anyone who's primary occupation is m/c racing and/or majority of income comes from m/c racing should be excluded from club (ie CCS, Wera local stuff, AFM, etc) events and denied a license for such.

First, how would you implement that?  

I guess you'd need to have everyone bring in their previous years tax returns.  

I think I personally made about $11k take home in 2001 from my regular job.  Made $2800 in race winnings for my team.  The race winnings are for my corporation.  Needless to say, about one my race winnings were about one quarter of my earnings.  If you made $110,000 and made $28,000 that's one quarter too.

Regardless, I'm sure that one of the only ways that Jeff and Scott can run the PRO FUSA and AMA races is that they can go and make some money at a club race.

As for too fast for a grid?  I guess I just kind of find this funny.  I've been in club races where riders have set the lap record.  I think I set the Vintage Lap Record at Daytona in 2002.  

And money doesn't make one fast.  Might help ease the burden.  I'm a decent case in point.  I certainly don't have near the budget of practically anyone, except maybe Nate R, but I still do pretty well by my own accounts.  I wish I could say that my bikes are great because I have so much time to prep them, but I don't.  I am lucky enough to have some really good people to work with that I can get what I need quickly and at a cost that is reasonable.

Barber problems.  Well, that's hard.  If you're not comfortable and ready at a new race track, well, that's the way it is.  Pegram...well, whatever.

Back to other organizations like SCCA...might be more money and support at those levels that keep the motal people out.  Additionally, I think cage racing does have a lot to do with the car.  Bike racing still has a whole lot to do with the rider.

QuoteMongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.  Am I being unreasonable?   

I have fully answered your question - you just don't like the answer.  My opinion is simple - if you are doing this for fun then an expectation of winning a National Championship is unreasonable.  Expectations of Regional Championships are reasonable.  

Regionals are club racing.  THE ROC and the GNF are not club racing - they are something more.  They aren't AMA Pro or GP racing but they are far mroe than just another Sunday at the local roadcourse.  Our Sportsman Series regional championships are set up for the local rider just going after a bit of fun and if they are decent and consistent a championship or two.  Our national championships are set up for the riders looking to take this whole thing further, riders who are interested in running against the best they can etc...

I keep saying this yet some of you don't seem to understand - we (and CCS) already have exactly what you want.  It may not have the title you want it to (actually, hasn't CCS changed the region names to include National in the title?) but the type of racing you describe exists.  Yes, the really fast guys may show up at Blackhawk for some Suzuki money - but the rare times this happens doesn't affect the championship standings does it?

When you talk about the ROC or GNF you are talking a National Championship - and when you go to that level of a race you should expect to run against some of the best riders in the Nation.  To expect to be a good regional racer and then go to the Nationals and still have a championship given to you is unreasonable.  

And to top it all off I think the discriminatiing against a rider because they are tying to go further in racing than you might be is extremely uncool - it's still discrimination and that is never a good thing.  The example about Scott is perfect - a lot of people owuld exclude him form "club" racing, just because he's faster and more driven than they are - how again would that be considered fair?  I also don't like powder puff classes and I don't like the over 40 classes.  It's giving people something they can't earn in the real world or in this case the real race classes.  If people really want a championship trophy they can't earn on their own talent or skill then email me and I'll hook you up with our trophy company, it'll be a lot cheaper and the end result is the same.

QuoteIn general they dont give advice, nor curtious t o the "little guy" in the pits.  They seem to come off thike they are better then the rest of us......
They have the best that money can buy, and all the time needed to refine how it works...
Its not like these riders bought their bike, equipment, transporter, paying the driver while they fly, ect.ect.ect.  This is not compatition, they should leave are awards alone.  I dont care how they look at it.  
...They use us as their pratice tool, then they should be pointed as being in a pratice, not a race...  
Perhaps a seperate race just for them, which would cost more to participate in.  Then the average guy would have a choice if they want to run with them.  
 

Good points!

First, many fast racers don't have a clue on what they are doing.  So, to ask one, well, they just don't know what they are doing, so how can they tell you.  Matt Wait is a nice guy, but he always looks concussed...right?  

Better than the rest of us?  Might just be out of their own element.  Really, practicing among guys that are slower than you, substantially, isn't really very good practice.  Might give them an idea where the track goes, but that's about it.  Regardless, going to a track where you know few people can be a bit uncomfortable, especially when everyone seems to have a notion about you.

As for paying for equipment....

Racers period pay huge prices to be racers.  I haven't had a live outside of racing since about 1987.  I can hardly relate to the real world.  Riders at that level have sacrificed everything to get where they are, and they are rewarded by sponsors for their skills and sacrifices.  Some of us have made commitments in our family lives and job choices that differ from racers.  If you're a factory racer and you get hurt, you can't go back to work and do desk duty...you might be out of a job.  And what skills does your regular pro racer have?  Can Pegram type?

A separate race?  Yeah, I'd be up for it, as long as there were a purse.  That's one thought that I had.  But, you'd have to have a separate practice then too.  Something would have to give somewhere.

Regardless, a normal person can attain some reasonable personal success in road racing given enough time and opportunity.  Often, riders price themself out of the market making poor purchases.  THAT'S WHAT I TEACH!  I personally have no depth perception and my back is apparently messed up from a fall I had when I was four or five.  I'm pretty normal, if not below normal.  I have pretty normal reaction times.  However, I've overcame the lack of funds that I have, and I do ok.

Upper level riders often are uniquely gifted.  Might have acute sight and quick reaction times.  That alone might be worth a couple of seconds a lap compared to the rest of us.  Even if we had all the money in the world, we still wouldn't lap nearly as fast a Mladin or Rossi, let alone a guy like Michael Barnes.

Practice not a race.  Yes.  It's not.  

However, I will counter that argument.

How can you expect to go fast in a race without knowing what will happen?  Bottomline is that unless you can push something to see what's "broke" at speed, you have no idea what the bike's reaction will be.  Practice is not the time to ride around;  it's the time to go out and try to fix things so that you can safely ride at speed.  It all goes back to set up, which is often times lost on the club racer and track day rider.  Riders seem to be in this idea that lap after lap will cure all woes...  Ride until you get some ideas, change things based on your intuition or a shot in the dark.  Good?  Then ride faster.  Worse?  Change it back or make a different change.  

Pro racers have a better set up often because they chase a better set up.  I'm sure Shawn Higbee could take a whole lot of our bikes and make some substantial changes to them so that they worked better for him.  Again, the experience he paid for (I remember when he and his dad traveled around in a converstion van and Shawn worked at a Harley dealership) still wasn't cheap.  And the sacrifices he made in his life were more costly than what most are willing to do.  That's why he's faster.

Quote My opinion is simple - if you are doing this for fun then an expectation of winning a National Championship is unreasonable.  Expectations of Regional Championships are reasonable.  

Regionals are club racing.  THE ROC and the GNF are not club racing - they are something more.

When you talk about the ROC or GNF you are talking a National Championship - and when you go to that level of a race you should expect to run against some of the best riders in the Nation.  To expect to be a good regional racer and then go to the Nationals and still have a championship given to you is unreasonable.  

And to top it all off I think the discriminatiing against a rider because they are tying to go further in racing than you might be is extremely uncool - it's still discrimination and that is never a good thing.  The example about Scott is perfect - a lot of people owuld exclude him form "club" racing, just because he's faster and more driven than they are - how again would that be considered fair?

Great points.

But I can't wait to race in Formula 40...LOL!

QuoteGreat points.

But I can't wait to race in Formula 40...LOL!

Neither can we...?  ??? lol!

QuoteMongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.

I think the whole point is, how do you define "pro"? There doesn't seem to be any good way. If you think there is, then why don't you try writing it up just how it should appear in the rulebook and post it here? Remember, it has to be enforceable. I.e. it has to be written in such a way that people can actually prove that they are legal, and other people could prove it if a person is illegal.

- Stu

QuoteI have fully answered your question - you just don't like the answer.  My opinion is simple - if you are doing this for fun then an expectation of winning a National Championship is unreasonable.  Expectations of Regional Championships are reasonable.  

Well then.  It would appear that I've already earned everything that I can reasonably expect from racing.  Actually, I'm cool with that.  Just locally there are guys that I'll probably never beat, so to expect a national championship would be unreasonable.  I never argued that point.
But the up and comers like Jessie, Thorny, Tez and Kevin have to beat the pros to win.  And they have to do it on the same track with all the experts that are 5-7 seconds a lap slower.  (That would include me.)  Have you ever raced Mongo?  Have you ever been punted off the track by a pro?  How did you like it?
Look at the average EX/AM combined race.  There might be 8 or 9 experts lined up in front of 30 or 40 amateurs.  Why the difference in numbers?  That should be pretty obvious.  Unless you have the gift, it can really suck to be an expert.  I've been an expert for one year, and have found half the seconds I need to be competitive.  I will come back next year and try to find the other half.  But how many don't come back?  Guys go expert, race for half a season and then disappear.  I claw along, too stubborn or stupid to admit defeat, but I am the exception rather than the rule.  Learning curves licences 10 new racers every weekend all summer long, but the grids don't get any bigger.  The status quo seems to be that the organizations keep loading guys in at the bottom, a few make it to the very top, and the rest leave after a few years.  Does this make sense?  How does racing get any bigger through this plan?  I really expected this issue to come up in the thread about why racers quit, but it never did.
I corner worked for 15 years before I began racing.  In the Midwest, I can only think of Breuer, Key, Stein, Styles and Rosno who have lasted a whole decade.  Where is everyone else?  Mongo, do you think it would make sense to address this issue?  I'm not trying to bait you here.  I'm trying to have a legitimate, intelligent discussion about something that troubles me.

  Forgive me if this is a repeat of someone's previous comment- I tried to read all of this, but some of it gets LONG.
  I think the philosophy of the ROC should still be a showdown of all the best from the different regions.  That's what it should be, but not what it's turning into, because people run one race earlier in the year, and show up on the grid.  If CCS required riders to score a certain (reasonably large)number of CCS points during the year to get into the ROC, like WERA does for the GNF, this wouldn't be such an issue.  As Mongo points out, there are always national level riders at the GNF, and one has to beat them to win.   But those guys, the "Pros" if you will, are also WERA guys in that they do race a significant amount in that series to get the GNF invite.  Or perhaps that's just my perception of what the beef is.

QuoteLook at the average EX/AM combined race.  There might be 8 or 9 experts lined up in front of 30 or 40 amateurs.  Why the difference in numbers?  That should be pretty obvious.  Unless you have the gift, it can really suck to be an expert.

I think there's a different answer. At least for some. My first racing "career" was from '90 - '94. I stopped because I was broke. I think that is the most common cause of attrition. You spend a lot of money in your first season or two and tell yourself, "once I get going good, the contingencies will start coming in. I'll pick up a little sponsorship, etc.." That doesn't happen and eventually, you have to stop bleeding money. It took me six years of being "out" before I felt ready to come back to it. And I came back with the plan "I'm just going to race when I can afford it. Just for fun." And look what this season turned into for me. I couldn't resist going for Regional championships. And I am beyond broke now (again). Unless I get some big help for next year, I'll probably only run the races at Roebling next year ('cause I get free entries) and Barber's ('cause I just love that track too much not to go).

Two of my really good friends and racing buddies were rookie Experts this year. Next year, they won't be back. The reason? They are broke and need to take next year off to pay off credit cards, etc.. They're going to sell their race bikes to help. Will they be back? It's hard for me to imagine them getting through the next year, paying off their credit cards, etc., then saying "okay, I want to do that all over again." Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

Bottom line is: I think the reason you often see small Expert grids and big Amateur grids is nothing to do with "Pros" coming out and everything to do with the expense of this sport. And I don't mean the expense of being a front-running Expert - I just mean the basic expenses of coming out and racing at all.

- Stu

QuoteFirst, many fast racers don't have a clue on what they are doing.  So, to ask one, well, they just don't know what they are doing, so how can they tell you.  Matt Wait is a nice guy, but he always looks concussed...right?

I think you're far off the mark with your example, Matt is pretty darn good at communicating. Last year before Pocono when he lost his FUSA ride he stayed with us for a week and practiced at Pocono in a NESBA event on our bikes. I was personally changing settings on the bikes between his preferences and Nate's, and his lap times improved significantly during the day. I won't comment on the cheap shot - other than to say that guy has been banged around pretty hard at times in his career but he's had the fortitude to gather himself back up and still compete at a high level.

QuoteBetter than the rest of us?  Might just be out of their own element.  Really, practicing among guys that are slower than you, substantially, isn't really very good practice.  Might give them an idea where the track goes, but that's about it.  Regardless, going to a track where you know few people can be a bit uncomfortable, especially when everyone seems to have a notion about you.

I disagree with you a bit here, Dave. Matt, Worm and Barney are some of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I've never, ever, seen any of them refuse to talk to someone or act like they own the place - they all pretty much all remember where they came from and aren't arrogant at all. But they're just people, putting their pants on the same way you do. Some are better at meeting people - but I can't imagine anyone friendlier than these three guys. Matt is laid back California but approachable. I know there were a lot of guys who met him at that NESBA event last year. Worm has a huge reputation as a prankster. And Barney is about as classy as road racers come. I've borrowed tools from Lee Acree at the track - he's one of the nicest, most genuine guys you'll meet.

QuoteAs for paying for equipment....

Every one of the three guys I mentioned has worked his butt off and made supreme sacrifices to get where they are. Matt grew up racing against Ben Bostrom at the Lodi Cycle Bowl, and beat him on a regular basis. Sure, he and Worm had the Ferracci ride(s), but they earned them. And Matt had a shot at 500GP and learned that it's tough on an uncompetitive bike. Worm has worked extremely hard to put together two first class AMA privateer efforts, and there aren't many guys who can say that. Dave, you know Barney's AMA Superbike effort this year was the farthest thing from a "finest money can buy" funded effort. He still finished 12th in the championship, and he would have done better had he not gotten dinged up in practice at Mid-Ohio and missed the weekend. Anyone notice he won Thunderbike at Daytona on an eleven year old F2?

,,,continued

...continued

QuoteRacers period pay huge prices to be racers.  I haven't had a live outside of racing since about 1987.  I can hardly relate to the real world.  Riders at that level have sacrificed everything to get where they are, and they are rewarded by sponsors for their skills and sacrifices.  Some of us have made commitments in our family lives and job choices that differ from racers.  If you're a factory racer and you get hurt, you can't go back to work and do desk duty...you might be out of a job.  And what skills does your regular pro racer have?  Can Pegram type?

You're right on the money there, but I think most people don't understand how much of a commitment is involved. Ever see Pegram at a race without his Dad? Any idea how much is mother and father have sacrificed to help him get where he is today?

...snip...

QuoteUpper level riders often are uniquely gifted.  Might have acute sight and quick reaction times.  That alone might be worth a couple of seconds a lap compared to the rest of us.  Even if we had all the money in the world, we still wouldn't lap nearly as fast a Mladin or Rossi, let alone a guy like Michael Barnes.

You can take that to the bank. No disrespect intended, but I find the earlier reply bragging about keeping up with Pegram at Daytona to be almost delusional. If you were hanging with him it was because he wanted you to. Wake up.

...snip...

QuotePro racers have a better set up often because they chase a better set up.  I'm sure Shawn Higbee could take a whole lot of our bikes and make some substantial changes to them so that they worked better for him.  Again, the experience he paid for (I remember when he and his dad traveled around in a converstion van and Shawn worked at a Harley dealership) still wasn't cheap.  And the sacrifices he made in his life were more costly than what most are willing to do.  That's why he's faster.

Excellent point. As you know, Dave, you can have a bike dialed in perfectly for a rider, but when he starts pushing it things change, and so does the setup. That's the magic of a good tuner/rider relationship and the basis for a winning team. Matt and Chuck/Don showed that this year. Worm has had a few guys that he's worked with very well. Barney and Tony have been together and it's a good combination. They succeed because they push the limits, and aren't satisifed with the status quo.

QuoteYou can take that to the bank. No disrespect intended, but I find the earlier reply bragging about keeping up with Pegram at Daytona to be almost delusional. If you were hanging with him it was because he wanted you to. Wake up.

Why is that hard to believe?  The guys not magic, really hasn't done anything spectacular except shoot his mouth off at every chance.

Greenwood was able to keep himself in front of him last year without too much trouble.  And hell, I even passed Greenwood at Daytona during practice (given, he's on the SS bike and I"m on a +3mm superbike, and he nearly punted me in the chicane trying to avoid hitting me) but again--I wouldn't say its impossible.

QuoteWhy is that hard to believe?  The guys not magic, really hasn't done anything spectacular except shoot his mouth off at every chance.

Greenwood was able to keep himself in front of him last year without too much trouble.  And hell, I even passed Greenwood at Daytona during practice (given, he's on the SS bike and I"m on a +3mm superbike, and he nearly punted me in the chicane trying to avoid hitting me) but again--I wouldn't say its impossible.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said if the guy was passing Pegram it was because they weren't racing and he should wake up to that fact.

Larry finished 4th in 2002 FUSA Superbike, Scott was 8th. Larry was 2nd in 2002 FUSA Sportbike, Scott was 7th. I'm confused about your reference to Scott staying ahead of Pegram last year. Don't take me wrong, Scott is certainly no slouch, but I'm missing your point.

As far as what has he done, he put a relatively uncompetitive Duc on the AMA Superbike podium at Road America in June. And he had 7 top 10's this year. But you could do that, right? Greenwood too, right? Give the guy the credit he's earned.

Larry will be back to AMA Superbike racing, so everyone will have their opportunity to prove how good they are against him on the track. You've come a pretty long way in a short period of time, but no offense, the next time I see you on the podium at an AMA Superbike event I'll take your comments about Larry more seriously.

Great, another one saying if you are not fast enough you not qualify to make comments about someone... Gee then unless you finish on a AMA podium or a FUSA podium, I cannot take you serious about your comments about greenwoood, or anyone else for that matter.

Nothing personal, just how it comes out. If we are going to sit around and show credentials before talking, we wouldn't be doing much talking now would we

Yeah, Dafan, rereading my post it sounds a little confrontational - didn't intend it that way. Just a little strange to me that a CCS amateur would brag about smoking Pegram and sound halfway serious about it. Maybe I misunderstood his post though.

Quote I also don't like powder puff classes and I don't like the over 40 classes.  It's giving people something they can't earn in the real world or in this case the real race classes.  

Well,  :P :P :P

This gets more interesting all the time , I wonder what would happen if after every combined am/ex race the slow experts would only get scored by the combined results. Lets say the winner was an expert and the next 3 guys across the line were amatuers then 5th place was an expert. We should score him as 5th not 2nd expert as he didn't deserve the 2nd place as he didn't earn it. Just a thought!

Now as far as what rosno said about fast racers not always knowing how to set up a bike he was 100% correct  as some of them don't , that is why the factories spend ton's of money on data ac. I know matt and larry personally and also barney, i have the utmost respect at what they have accomplished in their careers but i think they should go play in the bigger sandbox called AMA . I know if they could afford it they would. i think if you asked them all point blank they would also agree that even after racing all these years they still don't have all the answers on set up.

I don't know about scoring EX's on combined results because now you going to have the slower EX's racing the AM's. And they are not technially in the same race, only sharing the track at the same time.

I believe the pro privateer guys stay in FUSA instead of going to the sandbox is because they would make more money staying in FUSA, and their sponsors get more exposure. If kneedraggers had raced AMA and finished 8th - 15th every weekend, they would not get as much press if they finish 1st and 2nd every weekend in FUSA, and cost lost more money. So what makes more sense is to stay in FUSA.

The root of the evil here is the AMA/Factory set up. Without the factory teams, if only we had wide spread factory support teams, it would change everything from AMA Superbike to FUSA. Then Pro's can actually go be competitive pros in the big box, and the club guys can have their moments in the club racing. As it stands there is no benefit other than personal achievement to race AMA for most guys. And after you been racing for decade or so, personal achievement means a lot less for someone like me. So while I am a relatively slow ex next year, I would love to go race AMA because of personal reasons.

By the way, need some motor work done for a 03 R6, who should I email? got some questions

QuoteI also don't like powder puff classes and I don't like the over 40 classes.  It's giving people something they can't earn in the real world or in this case the real race classes.  

What Kevin said....Piiiifffttttt!  :P :P :P

QuoteI think you're far off the mark with your example, I won't comment on the cheap shot - other than to say that guy has been banged around pretty hard at times in his career but he's had the fortitude to gather himself back up and still compete at a high level....

I disagree with you a bit here, Dave. Matt, Worm and Barney are some of the nicest guys you'll ever meet.

Every one of the three guys I mentioned has worked his butt off and made supreme sacrifices to get where they are.

Frank, these are the points I was making.  You are taking me a bit out of context.  Riders at the upper level generally have spent a whole lot of time getting there.  And Lord yes, Matt has been absolutely pounded over the years.  Doesn't quit.  

I never used Barney, Matt, or Pegram as examples of guys who weren't deserving.  Again, you're getting me way out of text.

However, there are riders that do not include many of the ones that you give that do have the attutude that some were talking about.  They are still nice guys, but sometimes others expectations of those differ from reality.  There are times when riders ARE out of their element or they have work that HAS to be done.

QuoteYou can take that to the bank. No disrespect intended, but I find the earlier reply bragging about keeping up with Pegram at Daytona to be almost delusional. If you were hanging with him it was because he wanted you to. Wake up.

...snip...

Um, Frank, I'm confused here....

I wasn't at Daytona, so I wouldn't have bragged about keeping up.  You were quoting me.... ???

QuoteI believe the pro privateer guys stay in FUSA instead of going to the sandbox is because they would make more money staying in FUSA, and their sponsors get more exposure. If kneedraggers had raced AMA and finished 8th - 15th every weekend, they would not get as much press if they finish 1st and 2nd every weekend in FUSA, and cost lost more money. So what makes more sense is to stay in FUSA.

The root of the evil here is the AMA/Factory set up. Without the factory teams, if only we had wide spread factory support teams, it would change everything from AMA Superbike to FUSA. Then Pro's can actually go be competitive pros in the big box, and the club guys can have their moments in the club racing. As it stands there is no benefit other than personal achievement to race AMA for most guys. And after you been racing for decade or so, personal achievement means a lot less for someone like me. So while I am a relatively slow ex next year, I would love to go race AMA because of personal reasons.

By the way, need some motor work done for a 03 R6, who should I email? got some questions

Yeah, Kneedraggers was doing well.  There is some interest from the manufacturers in "Grand National" type racing with combined points from dirt track and road racing.  

The manufacture supported/manufacturer rules AMA program is probably the root of most of the problems.  I blew away a long tirade about the whole thing and a comparison to NASCAR...a successful program with lots of successful teams, drivers, and corporations with pretty decent purses ($40k for guys at the bottom) and multi-million dollar championship bonuses from series sponsors.

But back to the club racing thing...I guess what do you do?  Do you kick someone out as an expert after they've done it for so long?  And where would someone go after that?  What would be the criteria?  If they attain a  lap time that is in the 97th percentile, do we kick them out and make them go "pro"?  

Got to remember that this is still competition.  

And if you want to talk to Jim about motors and suspension and all, I'd call him.  Probably easier.  He'll give you really straight forward answers on what you need and what you don't.  He will be honest.

847.763.9900

QuoteUm, Frank, I'm confused here....

I wasn't at Daytona, so I wouldn't have bragged about keeping up.  You were quoting me.... ???

Larry Pegram was out in practice on a yellow plated duc leading Eanes around showing him the fast way around the track, I guess around 2:00 range. Benji kept up and mentioned it in the tread, and Frank thought it was braggin

no Frank, wasn't bragging...practice is practice. I never said that I passed him, just caught him in the infield(not knowing that it was Larry Pegram) Besides, I'm a first year Amateur and i race and practice with realistic expectations. Next year I will
have those same realistic expectations...only it will be to beat people on inferior equipment. I'll let my riding "wake people up"  So bring it!!! ;D ;D ;D

Dafan,
I'm not sure ....I want to be there @ Daytona but
not sure if it is in the budget. I'm hopeful for FUSA
as well. We'll see... gotta beat Super Dave first. ;D
Legitimately of course, he likes to slow down and let his children go by for the wins. Silly man!!!

The Pompous Amateur who so totally smoked Larry Pegram@ Daytona!!! ;)

Benji.

As it's been said the AMA/Factory set up is really the main problem.  How is it to feel that your possibly to fast for reg "club" races but don't have and probably won't get, the support to be competitive on the AMA stage?  And with the AMA payout being so low in comparison to your expenses just to race, it's got to be a tough position to be in.

What do you do?  If AMA had better purses and more factory and/or fortune 500 type support those guys would beable to make a decent living congruent with their talent.  Not to mention the racing would be better anyway.  At that level does Hacking really have anymore talent than Barney?  Zemke more than Acree?  The list goes on and on.

I still don't mind racing with these guys because I would rather compete on the highest level if possible.  These guys need to make a living and if coming and racing against us partime along with the AMA guys parttime is how they need to do it, then so be it.  It's understandable and until the "pros" get a blue plate or something to signify a different level, then they should race wherever they need too to live their dream also.

QuoteWe'll see... gotta beat Super Dave first. ;D
Legitimately of course, he likes to slow down and let his children go by for the wins. Silly man!!!

LOL, that was funny.  I just wanted to see something, and so a wave by was the thing to do.  Got in info that I wanted, and then was able to relay that to the rider. ;D

 Hey, I've done this long enough that I don't think I have anything to prove anymore.  Still can go fast on my meger budget.  Benji...you still make way more money that I do.  Equipment won't necessarily win races.  But setup and being sneaky sure will.  A reasonable bike is just fine.

And I think peanut has it right....

QuoteI still don't mind racing with these guys because I would rather compete on the highest level if possible.  These guys need to make a living and if coming and racing against us partime along with the AMA guys parttime is how they need to do it, then so be it.

QuoteUm, Frank, I'm confused here....

I wasn't at Daytona, so I wouldn't have bragged about keeping up.  You were quoting me.... ???

No, sorry to mislead. Included it in my reply to you, but was referring to Benji, and he's already enlightened me as to what he meant. Anyway, apologize for misinterpreting anyone - that's the problem with quick written communication on a forum instead of in person.

Peanut is close IMHO - really need bigger purses and more corporate sponsorship in the AMA to keep those guys in that sandbox. That's not going to happen in a big way as long as the factory teams have the advantage over everyone else. But, the gap is narrowing somewhat as the equipment off the showroom floor gets better and better.

Dave, I like the sneaky Pete. Oh, what you think that because I'm like a doctor and stuff that I make lots of money or something? ;) I'm still broke!

MightyThorny.

QuoteMightyThorny.

Cool.  This thread would be way more interesting if Bryan was chiming in.

Do they have the internet in racer Heaven?
I know that Bryan is just itching to chime in............
I can only imagine the things he'd be saying right now.

Bryan, if you can read this, we miss you brotha!!!

lil_thorny. 8) ;D ;)

you know, not a day has past by where I don't think about bryan. It is hard to take in that such a vibrant personality is gone, forever.

It also gives me chill bumps every time I think about it. My bike died around the same place where he fell, and I was just lucky I put a little distance between me and the person behind me, and I immediately pulled below the apron. I still thought I was going to get hit.

Then I found out someone did get hit. I feel fortunate, in a very unlucky year, I fell fortunate. but I also feel very sad that Bryan didn't catch the break that I did.

For that, I am going to put a "944" on my race bikes forever I race. And the first lap I take at daytona next year, will be for you

Quote Have you ever raced Mongo?  Have you ever been punted off the track by a pro?  How did you like it?

Bump...

Ok I cant take it anymore.  I knew Mighty Quack pretty well.  Hell I raced him all year and all he wanted to do was beat me.  Ask his sister and wife.  I think I can speak for him a little.  I talked to him almost daily.  You guys are a bunch of cry babies.  WHITE PLATE =PRO period.  Braney comes and races at the local CCS races and it is awsome to watch and LEARN.  As an expert you can qualify for a AMA race if you are fast enough.  FUSA let Yellow Plates race against the "PROS" in thunberbike.  Got to see barney do some really cool sh*t in warmups.  The Factory Pro TEAMS will never race a ROC or a GNF because it doesn't make sense $ wise.  Yosh was there testing on tuesday before the ROC.  At a CCS race or the ROC  Rapp, Barney, Pegram, Kerns, Ciccotto, Chanlder, or whoever pay the same entry as you and me and starts from a grid postion and starts at the same green flag as all of us.  If they beat us there are faster, because they worked to get there its as simple as that.  Barney ran 57's in qualifing on a 92 f2, and I dont what to hear it I saw the whole thing from the start a week before the ROC.  It was no factory effort or Prieto and Barney puttin lots $ into the bike they didn't even check the vavles.  It passed the 3.5 to 1 ratio like everyboby else.  I think there was only a hand full of CCS experts going that fast on GSXR 1000's.  The AMA and FUSA regulars are faster and any of us can be to if we work hard enongh and push our "survival instint" as far as they do.
It did blow when Rapp didn't pick up his throphy, but He could have had a flight out he was there since wednessday TEACHING at Team Hammer.  Only he knows what the national championship mean to him.  
I normally don't chime in but I hope It would have made Bryan Proud.  Sorry if I offended anyone, wait no I'm not!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

QuoteOh, what you think that because I'm like a doctor and stuff that I make lots of money or something? ;) I'm still broke!

MightyThorny.

Well, yeah...  Wanna compare tax returns...

But you S U C K anyway...I know...I got to teach you stuff...BAAAMMMM!


 :P :P :P

 ;D 8) ;D

QuoteBump...

I'm kind of busy running our race where we let all the pros win everything that the club racers are deserving of.

Anyway, no, I've never raced, I've never been punted off the track by a "Pro".   I don't need to have raced to understand tis issue sorry, it's really very simple - you want championships that cannot be won by riders faster than you.  Every post has said this loud and clear.  Cool, if that's the way you feel so be it.  I disagree.

Just for fun I'll give you a count right now of how many Pros will punt any of the other 400+ riders off the track this week - zero.  The riders know the level of competition that they'll encounter with the backmarkers and being good riders act accordingly.  Besides that - what the heck does that have to do with anything anyway?  Now you want us to make rules based on the slowest riders out there?

QuoteI don't need to have raced to understand tis issue sorry, it's really very simple - you want championships that cannot be won by riders faster than you.  Every post has said this loud and clear.  Cool, if that's the way you feel so be it.  I disagree.

Mongo, you are SADLY mistaken. Not EVERY post has said this loud and clear. May I suggest you read each and every post WITHOUT prejudice

I don't have a problem with faster riders winning championships, even pro's.

I have a problem having the championship awarded to people who have NO regular involvement during the season. Just having a license does not indicate involvement. This is club racing, NOT the olympics. Everyone who participated in the series through the season should have the chance to go for a bigger piece of the pie. I don't like the fast guys that just show up only at ROC just as much as the slower guys. I think the ROC should be a price for regular competitors.

No limitation on who can enter the series, I just want to see this price only available to everyone who has contributed to, and committed to the series.

This is NOT just a sport, it is also a business (especially in CCS's case). I want the regular customers taken care of more than just the one off guys, and have some preferencial treatment to the guys who committed to the series. I could just hang around summit point and VIR and spend my money both with WERA and CCS, but I chose to race CCS, and there are others who has followed the series when they didn't want to, all in the name of the region. And I would like CCS ROC to be that, for CCS racers only, but only CCS racers who has been racing with CCS, not just a license holder. Having a license means you are qualified to race, does not mean that you actually race with us.

That's it. I couldn't care less who is fast, who is slow, who has more money, who is factory based, who takes the purse. I just want the price to go to regular participants. Playoff's in other entertainment/sports are only available to teams/people who has competed during the season. So should the finals and national championships.

If that is not the intend, if ROC is supposed to be a FREE-FOR-ALL. then DON'T connnect it with regular season. DON'T grid based on regional standings. Qualify, or based on pre-entry. So I don't have to spend money to race during the year for a grid spot, and only to race wiht people who hasn't raced all year. It is not fair.

Not about fast or slow, I spent my money with CCS and I want some damn exclusivity. Thats all. Racing a pro would be GREAT for fun, but I don't think it belong at the ROC. On sunday, they can race FUSA, they can take all the money.

We are only talking about the pro's because slower guy wouldn't be able to over come the grid they get. So we are not only having problem with others who beat us. It is about the philosophy ok?

QuoteAnyway, no, I've never raced, I've never been punted off the track by a "Pro".   I don't need to have raced to understand tis issue sorry, it's really very simple - you want championships that cannot be won by riders faster than you.  Every post has said this loud and clear.  Cool, if that's the way you feel so be it.  I disagree.

I must admit, I'm getting a little annoyed with you and your condiscending attitude.  Now it comes out that you've never raced, yet you come off as the grand authority on how racers think.  I saw a tee-shirt once that said, "Better a racer for a moment than a spectator for life."  I guess we now know where you stand.
I have won eight regional championships, and took a fifth at the ROC.  I have stated continuiously in my posts that there are local experts who can smoke me for now, and I'm OK with that.  Read the posts again if you think I'm lying.
I have complained about pros taking championships from the club racers who are better than me.  Is that whining that I should be the champion?  Only in your world.  
I will admit that it is a clever ploy on your part to try and make it all about me.    That way you don't have to give a rational reply to the points that I bring up.  This is a common practice in debate.  When you realize that you can't outreason your opponent, you attack him personally instead and hope he'll give up.  Sometimes effective, but in reality it's a sign of weakness.
 
Pros race for a living.  They get factory support.  They have sponsorship that club racers can only dream of.  They've earned it.  More power to them.  But when they come steal a club racing championship just to take the purse money, that is low. They've already been there and done that.  They should stay away from the club racing championship because they are pros.  I should stay away from the amateur classes because I am an expert.
Club level experts realize that not every rider on the track can run their pace.  They cut the slower guys a few inches of room, because as the race director says during the riders meeting at every CLUB RACE, "We've all got to go to work on Monday morning."  Pros, from what I've seen, think that every inch of the track is their God-given property, and anyone who ventures into their chosen line will be hit.  (Then berated for getting in the way, even though it is the overtaking rider's responsibility to pass safely.)  Fifteen years of corner working and five years of racing have not shown me otherwise.  If that is how you must ride to be a pro, fine.  Go race pro.
This isn't rocket science.  Every other form of motorsport has multiple levels.  Motorcycle racing has two, beginner or pro.  Covers a wide spectrum of skill, doesn't it?  Get your licence, race a bunch of classes at one poorly-attended double points weekend, earn 500 points, and you're ready to take on the guys who race for a living.  Is everybody else wrong?  If an expert wants to try racing with the pros, let them go to a pro race.  Otherwise, keep the pros in the pro races.
I suppose that it's only fair to let the pros poach the Suzuki or Yamaha money at a club race.  They still have to beat the local fast experts, and that's often harder said than done.  But at the ROC or GNF, pro poachers should be banned.  They didn't spend a whole year running the class at the regional level, so they have no right to vie for the national championship.  Can a football team just show up at the Super Bowl and play for the championship?  No.  The right to compete for a championship is earned throughout the season.
Now then.  Would you care to actually address my points in an adult fasion, or would you prefer to just continue to insult me?

QuoteClub level experts realize that not every rider on the track can run their pace.  They cut the slower guys a few inches of room, because as the race director says during the riders meeting at every CLUB RACE, "We've all got to go to work on Monday morning."  Pros, from what I've seen, think that every inch of the track is their God-given property, and anyone who ventures into their chosen line will be hit.  (Then berated for getting in the way, even though it is the overtaking rider's responsibility to pass safely.

     I had the unfortunate situation of being the recipient of a Pro's arrogance at Road America this year. During a warm-up lap this guy came by me as we left the carousel, looked over at me, lifted a wheely, and cut right across my front wheel almost causing me to crash. After his display of superiority he then looked back to see if I was still on the track. What a jerk! It still kinda pisses me off that a couple corner workers watched the whole thing happen and nothing was done about it, undoubtably preferential treatment due to his 'status'!

QuoteDuring a warm-up lap this guy came by me as we left the carousel, looked over at me, lifted a wheely,...What a jerk! It still kinda pisses me off that a couple corner workers watched the whole thing happen and nothing was done about it, undoubtably preferential treatment due to his 'status'!

Ok, I'll chime in on this.

I've seen lots of wheelies in CCS events.  Although I saw them, and I felt they were intentional, I have never seen them called in for an infraction.  So, first, a corner worker would have to see it, then call it in.  The worker would have to know that a wheelie is strictly forbidden too.  I kind of doubt that this is about "status".  I think the corner workers root for the everyday guys, too.  K3, can you comment?

QuoteI don't have a problem with faster riders winning championships, even pro's.

I have a problem having the championship awarded to people who have NO regular involvement during the season.

I want the regular customers taken care of more than just the one off guys, and have some preferencial treatment to the guys who committed to the series.

Playoff's in other entertainment/sports are only available to teams/people who has competed during the season. So should the finals and national championships.

ROC grids are based on points in your region.  Are post entries allowed at ROC?  Used to be pre entry only, but I though they allowed some post recently.  Didn't keep track of this years stuff.

Anyway, grids...that's the reward at ROC for the regular series competitors.

Other sports usually have "wild cards" or lower seeds that can actually make the final or even win.

As for ROC and Pro riders, they are experts.  I don't see any experts that ran at Daytona complaining about the "pro" guys.  If we're using Steve Rapp as the whipping boy for pros, yeah, what he did was, as fourandsix said, classless.  That's about it.  Rapp started from the back.  And so did Jesse Janisch, since he was unable to follow the series because he just turned 16.

Bumping...let's go through this topic.  As a rider's speed increases on the track, lap times, the lines that they follow will change.  So, a rider that is faster when compared to a rider that is slower might have converging lines.  The bumps are not intenational, but when closing speeds are very very fast, they might be unavoidable.  One thing you learn in racing something like AMA Supersport is that a bump and a nudge is no big deal.  Yes, it's a bit nerve racking the first time it happens, but it usually isn't a problem.

I was punted by a faster pro rider during practice as I slowed to let two much slower novices clear turn one during the Hammer day at Daytona... >:(  

They were staggered and almost side-by-side.  I felt it would have caused an incident... so because it being only practice, I backed off to let the slower riders clear the corner.  I'm just a nice guy.
 
The only reason I'm a little ticked off is because I saw the difference in my closing speed and the pro guy couldn't.  I think he was trying to catch Matt Wait who was just in front of the two novice riders.  You know, the bone head got caught up in trying to win practice...

As for the faster pros running races to steal purse money?  

I have a few thoughts too.  

First- it does make us faster to ride with them, really.  

Secondly- They don't impress me when they do that.  It's like having Steve Rapp fight Mike Tyson.  

Third - CCS should keep the ROC to racers that have a minimum of 250 or more CCS points.  Letting just anyone run the ROC is silly.  That means any top pro can come last minute and win the ROC.  If that ever happens in a large scale, I'm done racing CCS.  Also, I don't think the celebrity of having Shawn Higbee grided next to me at Blackhawk equals what I would get out of it.  Oh wait, it did happen. ;-)

QuoteOk, I'll chime in on this.

I've seen lots of wheelies in CCS events.  Although I saw them, and I felt they were intentional, I have never seen them called in for an infraction.  So, first, a corner worker would have to see it, then call it in.  The worker would have to know that a wheelie is strictly forbidden too.  I kind of doubt that this is about "status".  I think the corner workers root for the everyday guys, too.  K3, can you comment?

Yeah, there's the "First a worker would have to see it" factor.  Workers don't have 360 degree vision.  As a worker I've missed crashes until I heard the bike hit the ground, and have also predicted crashes and had the yellow waving before the rider hit the ground.  Depends where you're looking at that moment.  Corner working is a tough gig, but I recommend it to anyone too broke to race.
Status?  Not likely.  Workers usually root for their local boys, and we get pretty bent when a travelling pro starts knocking our guys around.  First we have to see it...  But once we report it, where it goes from there is up to the race director.
Wheelies do or don't get called in, depending on the worker, the rider, when and why he pulled the "illegal celebration," and how safe it was.  The info, if there is any, is then called in and the race director decided what to do about it.  The best way to get BUSTED is to clown around during a red flag.  Corner workers may lynch you for that! :o >:( >:( >:(

QuoteI must admit, I'm getting a little annoyed with you and your condiscending attitude. [snip]

Pros race for a living.[snip]

An excellent post, Chris. Very well spoken (written?). And I happen to agree with you.

But, you have not answered the question I posed you earlier, and I think Mongo has said the same thing.

How would you like to define "Pro"? Please formulate and post a proposal for what should go in the rulebook to separate the Pros from the Experts. Personally, I have not been able to think of an acceptable way to codify this sentiment.

- Stu

QuoteBut, you have not answered the question I posed you earlier, and I think Mongo has said the same thing.

How would you like to define "Pro"? Please formulate and post a proposal for what should go in the rulebook to separate the Pros from the Experts. Personally, I have not been able to think of an acceptable way to codify this sentiment.

- Stu

I agree Stu.  How would you define it?

First, an expert with a reasonable number of points can apply for an AMA pro license.  That gives the rider the ability to attempt to quailfy for AMA pro road races.  Same goes for FUSA.  You can buy the license, but it doesn't make one fast.

And why is this stealing?  It's a race, so if a person competes and does better, they should win.  If you have a 3mm overbore kit in your GSXR600 and you race it in Middleweight Supersport, you should be bumped out...

Any one want to guess the name of the Midwest rider with that motor?

...Do most of us recognize Larry Denning's name?  Larry makes good money racing for Yamaha money.  Used to just pound him when I was really fast, but family and trying to build a school has taken a bit out of me.  I think Larry (Lightnin' Larry on the board here) takes in over $50k.  Yeah, a lot goes into his program too.  He does this as his job.  So, Larry can't race for Yamaha money anymore in CCS?

I fully expect myself to go out an beat him.

When Scott Russell showed up in 1989 at Blackhawk for Suzuki Money on his Yoshimura Katana...I didn't care.  I still wanted to beat him.

You can't really differentiate an expert or a pro.  Really are the same thing, in a way.  Might be more of a state of mind.  If were talking about ROC...well, then it's just a state of class or no class.  If that person can't understand the common courtesy...well, then I think we've got our set up for the boxing fight....
 ;D

Dave and Stu,

It's impossible to legislate morality, to dictate common sense or to mandate sportsmanship. In my opinoin Rapp violated all three of those at Daytona this year, not to mention almost running me over with his pit bike and getting in the way when I was videotaping (I just shot over his head). I can't conceive of a rule that would keep the 'pros' out and not invoke the law of unintended consequence. Witness the AMA's latest of a long line of fiascos fumbling around with rules (sorry, regulations) on who can practice when.

I'll continue to live by my three racing goals:

1) Have fun
2) Fall down as little as possible
3) Don't finish last

If some factory-supported (or near enough) numb-nut laps me and makes goal one a lap shorter, so be it. There's classless idiots everywhere. If someone I've been racing with all year laps me, more power to him.

On the other hand, if I hear one of the 'pros', just one, bitch about 'backmarkers' it's going to be two out of three in the parking lot.

What the hell, CMRA has left CCS anyway and Haner has the class to pull off on the last lap. What do I care?

Nick

QuoteDave and Stu,

It's impossible to legislate morality, to dictate common sense or to mandate sportsmanship.

Nick

Oh, well put, Nick.

The question really is:

Is it time to have a three tier licensing system...

• An entry level amateur system.  Maximum duration of being an amateur maybe a full season.  Limited classes, no purse, no awards.
• A sportsman level system.  Events with more classes, contingencies, maybe a minor amount a purse, awards.  Meant to be a final destination for most racers.  One that fun in competition is stressed.
• Finally, an expert class that has limited classes, higher entry fees, larger purses, CCS entry contingencies for top placing racers in the final class series points, continencies, no awards.

Mongo, have you ever thought of that?

Hmmm...

I think there are allot of ways you could define pro. Now doing so and keeping everyone happy, that's Impossible! Look at the huge debate between yellow and white plates that went on. I could attend a bunch of races do reasonably well, maybe hit a double point weekend and BAM I got my 500 points. According to CCS, I'm now an expert.

Does that mean I'm a Pro? Hell no. Sure an expert could obtain an AMA license and race in AMA, does that make him a pro? I dunno, it depends on how you define it, which seems to be the major issue here.

I think about it this way, if a high school basketball player (yellow plate) skips college (white plate) and goes directly to the NBA (PRO) he is not allowed to go back and compete in college.

There's my definition. Maybe that should be the cutoff. If you race in AMA, you're all done with CLUB racing. If you receive a salary, no matter how much to race... you're a Pro. Sponsorship probably doesn't mean salary here in this case.

I want to race against guys who are faster than me. Do I want to CLUB race against someone who does it for a living? Nope. That's not Club racing. Swwoping in to win one race is class less. What does it prove? Doesn't a "Pro" want to race against faster people too? What do they learn racing against us "slow" club racers.

 Then again I'm only a first year racer. I do like the discussion though. Notice I didn't use the word arguing.  ;D

Ray

QuoteI think about it this way, if a high school basketball player (yellow plate) skips college (white plate) and goes directly to the NBA (PRO) he is not allowed to go back and compete in college.

There's my definition. Maybe that should be the cutoff. If you race in AMA, you're all done with CLUB racing. If you receive a salary, no matter how much to race... you're a Pro. Sponsorship probably doesn't mean salary here in this case.

The problem with the basketball concept is that riders are at different points in their careers at various ages.  Ed Key has raced a long time.  Before I started racing, Ed raced club races and as an AMA 250 GP rider for some time.  Eventually, he had to get away from bikes because of problems with his wrist.  He returned to CCS racing.  Under your analogy, he's done.  Same would be for Todd Harrington.  Todd raced under the Team Muzzy Kawasaki banner several years ago.  Got let go.  Came back to racing, as an expert.  Jeff Purk put the hammer down to try and do the AMA Superbike series one year.  Was kind of disaterous.  I could see that his confidence was gone.  Probably took him a half a year to get his act back together.

Salary?  Hmm, here's an interesting scanario.  In the late eighties, some riders were paying for their factory rides.  So, no salary.  Might have been bonuses for race performance.  Kind of bunks a salary issue.

I don't think there is a way to do it unless there is just a three tier system.  It would reduce problems in sand bagging amateurs.  It would allow for a great series of guys having fun.  And there would still be the class for guys that are trying to make something more of themselve or are always chasing for a faster lap.

QuoteI agree Stu.  How would you define it?

I don't see a way to do it. That's why I have been agreeing with Mongo on this subject.

You can't just say "if you're employed by a factory, you're a Pro, not an Expert." Excluding somebody based on who their employer is is kind of ridiculous. And probably not enforceable. I mean, if I'm Miguel Duhamel, I've probably already incorporated Miguel Duhamel, Inc. and I am just an employee of MDI, not Honda, anyway, so how would you enforce this rule against me. My pay stubs and tax returns will show that I'm not employeed by a factory.

I don't think you can base it on income. How do you distinguish the income of Rapp from somebody who makes an equal amount of money but not related to racing?

I don't think you can base it on points. I mean, how many CCS points has Rapp or Duhamel earned lately?

You can't base it on what series people run, because there's too many guys that run in AMA Nationals that we all agree should not be excluded from normal Expert races.

I suppose you could come up with some kind of rule that has specifics for each National class, and base it on how high you've been in the points in that class. E.g. If you've been in the top 10 in AMA Supersport or Superbike in the last year, you're Pro. If you've been in the top 5 in Superstock or Thunderbike, you're Pro. But that seems kinda hokey to me, and I'd say, depending on specifically where you draw the line, you're either going to exclude people you shouldn't or not exclude people that you really intended to.

And at the end of the day, it comes down to what Mongo has been saying. It's a regional series. That doesn't mean it's kindergarten. That just means it's a smaller pool of competition, with a lower reward for winning. But that doesn't mean that there should be an upper limit on the talent that's allowed to compete. There should always be an Unlimited class. And for the racers themselves, that is Expert status.

The real thing that will (and should) keep "pros" from running Regionals is the risk vs. reward. There is a high risk and the reward is low, compared to the potential rewards at National events. And that formula works. You almost never see real "pros" racing at Regionals. It's not worth it to them to risk hurting themselves for a $200 purse, when they've got a $2000 purse on the line in a couple of weeks.

I think the only REAL beef people here have is "pros" showing up for the ROC and winning "National" Championships. And for that, I don't think the solution is to discriminate between Pros and Experts. I think the solution is to discriminate between the people who have actually run the series and people who haven't.

For that, I have not been able to come up with a better solution than Dafan's proposal. So, I'm espousing it. Treat the ROC like a 2-race series. The first "race" is the respective Regional series. The winner of each class gets 65 points. I.e. All the Regional champs get 65 points coming into the ROC. The top 50 in each class in each region get points according to the usual race points schedule. Then, the finishers at the ROC get points on the same schedule. I.e. the race winner gets 65 points. If the winner is also a Regional champ in that class, then they have 130 points and are the undisputed National champ. In the case of a tie, whoever finishes better at the ROC itself gets it. I.e. if a Regional 2nd place wins the race at the ROC and a Regional champ finishes 2nd, then they would be tied on points, so the person who actually won the ROC race would be the National Champ.

I think a solution like this for the ROC would solve everybody's issues. And without having to come up with some cockamimie rule to exclude Pros.

- Stu

QuoteAn excellent post, Chris. Very well spoken (written?). And I happen to agree with you.

- Stu

Thank you.  I put a lot of time and thought into it.  I really don't enjoy ranting and raving...

QuoteHow would you like to define "Pro"? Please formulate and post a proposal for what should go in the rulebook to separate the Pros from the Experts. Personally, I have not been able to think of an acceptable way to codify this sentiment.

- Stu

An excellent point.  I know that I'm not qualified to make that judgement.  And as was stated earlier, no ruling would please everyone.

QuoteDave and Stu,

It's impossible to legislate morality, to dictate common sense or to mandate sportsmanship. In my opinoin Rapp violated all three of those at Daytona this year
Nick

Absolutely!

QuoteI'll continue to live by my three racing goals:

1) Have fun
2) Fall down as little as possible
3) Don't finish last


Nick

Love it!  You've perfectly described right where my mindset is, and also the attitude of the vast majority of club-level experts.

QuoteIs it time to have a three tier licensing system...

• An entry level amateur system.  Maximum duration of being an amateur maybe a full season.  Limited classes, no purse, no awards.
• A sportsman level system.  Events with more classes, contingencies, maybe a minor amount a purse, awards.  Meant to be a final destination for most racers.  One that fun in competition is stressed.
• Finally, an expert class that has limited classes, higher entry fees, larger purses, CCS entry contingencies for top placing racers in the final class series points, continencies, no awards.

An excellent idea, and one that I would be behind 100%  I really think that a system like this might allow CCS to retain many racers who just find that they don't enjoy racing as an expert in the current, two-tier system.  And of course, retaining racers means a bigger bottom line for CCS...

QuoteFor that, I have not been able to come up with a better solution than Dafan's proposal. So, I'm espousing it. Treat the ROC like a 2-race series. The first "race" is the respective Regional series. The winner of each class gets 65 points. I.e. All the Regional champs get 65 points coming into the ROC. The top 50 in each class in each region get points according to the usual race points schedule. Then, the finishers at the ROC get points on the same schedule. I.e. the race winner gets 65 points. If the winner is also a Regional champ in that class, then they have 130 points and are the undisputed National champ. In the case of a tie, whoever finishes better at the ROC itself gets it. I.e. if a Regional 2nd place wins the race at the ROC and a Regional champ finishes 2nd, then they would be tied on points, so the person who actually won the ROC race would be the National Champ.

I think a solution like this for the ROC would solve everybody's issues. And without having to come up with some cockamimie rule to exclude Pros.

- Stu

This is very logical, and in leiu of a three tier system, would at least put some fairness and legitimacy into the concept of crowning National Champions at the ROC.
So...  Should these proposals be forwarded to CCS?  We can't just assume that they will read this thread and decide that the ideas are good and changes should be made.  What is the consensus?

In referance to my last posting on this subject:  I am sticking to my guns.
 >:(
Give em there own race.  
If they want to run us (and are pocket book) with all the best of the best, so there is no light at the end of the tunnel for us to look for then The rules need to change.  A different catagory would fix it I think.  If you are doing too good as a am./ the officials move you to EX.  So what gives with taking these guys and putting them with us in ex.  This isnt the type of compatition I am willing to be a part of.  Why not put us all in one race then........Am, EX, Pro, whatever.  Plate color doesent matter for scoring so on.  (better get more chuck-wagons).  What is the differance then what is going on here.  Would you by a lotto ticket if you KNEW you wouldnt win.  How about paying top dollar for a house while it was on fire?  Not me thanks :P

QuoteYeah, there's the "First a worker would have to see it" factor.  Workers don't have 360 degree vision.  As a worker I've missed crashes until I heard the bike hit the ground, and have also predicted crashes and had the yellow waving before the rider hit the ground.  Depends where you're looking at that moment.  Corner working is a tough gig, but I recommend it to anyone too broke to race.
Status?  Not likely.  Workers usually root for their local boys, and we get pretty bent when a travelling pro starts knocking our guys around.  First we have to see it...  But once we report it, where it goes from there is up to the race director.
Wheelies do or don't get called in, depending on the worker, the rider, when and why he pulled the "illegal celebration," and how safe it was.  The info, if there is any, is then called in and the race director decided what to do about it.

     I should have mentioned that 2 corner workers were watching this as it happened and by the look on the female corner workers face she thought I was going to crash trying to avoid this guy. She was pointing right at us when it happened and the other corner worker was looking right at us too. As far as the local guy thing goes, this 'Pro' guy is a local guy also, no need for names.

     I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of it, just giving an example of my experience with a 'Pro' guy that thought he owned the track.

QuoteMongo, you are SADLY mistaken. Not EVERY post has said this loud and clear. May I suggest you read each and every post WITHOUT prejudice

I have a problem having the championship awarded to people who have NO regular involvement during the season.

Okay - if that's what you've been trying to say in a nutshell then I apologize - because that's not what I've been getting form your posts.  It seems that what you want is a qualification system for the ROC and it's got nothing to do with who runs it so long as they qualify for it rather than showing up ONLY for that race.  However until now I don't believe you mentioned that sorry.  If indeed this is what you mean, I totally agree (that's why ours is done that way).  However if anyone qualifies then it shouldn't matter who they are, how long they've been riding, how big their truck is or who their sponsors are.

QuoteI must admit, I'm getting a little annoyed with you and your condiscending attitude.  Now it comes out that you've never raced, yet you come off as the grand authority on how racers think.  I saw a tee-shirt once that said, "Better a racer for a moment than a spectator for life."  I guess we now know where you stand.
I have won eight regional championships, and took a fifth at the ROC.  I have stated continuiously in my posts that there are local experts who can smoke me for now, and I'm OK with that.  Read the posts again if you think I'm lying.
I have complained about pros taking championships from the club racers who are better than me.  Is that whining that I should be the champion?  Only in your world.  
I will admit that it is a clever ploy on your part to try and make it all about me.    That way you don't have to give a rational reply to the points that I bring up.  This is a common practice in debate.  When you realize that you can't outreason your opponent, you attack him personally instead and hope he'll give up.  Sometimes effective, but in reality it's a sign of weakness.
 
Pros race for a living.  They get factory support.  They have sponsorship that club racers can only dream of.  They've earned it.  More power to them.  But when they come steal a club racing championship just to take the purse money, that is low. They've already been there and done that.  They should stay away from the club racing championship because they are pros.  I should stay away from the amateur classes because I am an expert.
Club level experts realize that not every rider on the track can run their pace.  They cut the slower guys a few inches of room, because as the race director says during the riders meeting at every CLUB RACE, "We've all got to go to work on Monday morning."  Pros, from what I've seen, think that every inch of the track is their God-given property, and anyone who ventures into their chosen line will be hit.  (Then berated for getting in the way, even though it is the overtaking rider's responsibility to pass safely.)  Fifteen years of corner working and five years of racing have not shown me otherwise.  If that is how you must ride to be a pro, fine.  Go race pro.
This isn't rocket science.  Every other form of motorsport has multiple levels.  Motorcycle racing has two, beginner or pro.  Covers a wide spectrum of skill, doesn't it?  Get your licence, race a bunch of classes at one poorly-attended double points weekend, earn 500 points, and you're ready to take on the guys who race for a living.  Is everybody else wrong?  If an expert wants to try racing with the pros, let them go to a pro race.  Otherwise, keep the pros in the pro races.
I suppose that it's only fair to let the pros poach the Suzuki or Yamaha money at a club race.  They still have to beat the local fast experts, and that's often harder said than done.  But at the ROC or GNF, pro poachers should be banned.  They didn't spend a whole year running the class at the regional level, so they have no right to vie for the national championship.  Can a football team just show up at the Super Bowl and play for the championship?  No.  The right to compete for a championship is earned throughout the season.
Now then.  Would you care to actually address my points in an adult fasion, or would you prefer to just continue to insult me?

Where have I insulted you? I can if you'd like - how's this one, 5th at the ROC doesn't make you fast enough to even be slightly concerned about the whole thing now does it?  Sorry but you're the condescending one.  I've been trying to have a conversation about this issue to get more insight - that's how I have gotten information and how I have an idea of what racers really want, for the last 17 years.  It's actually not all that

It's funny how now you've come to the crux of this matter being qualifying for the final race of the year.  Guess how WERA has done the GNF for as long as I've been involved with it and at least 10 years prior to that?  You know, if you'd brought this up sooner then we'd have been on the same side in this for the last week or so...

QuoteWhere have I insulted you? I can if you'd like - how's this one, 5th at the ROC doesn't make you fast enough to even be slightly concerned about the whole thing now does it?  

Well, you'd be right if it was all about me.  The whole reasion I got so ruffled by this thread was because of the Rapp/Janisch thing.  It's happened before and will probably happen again, but I've raced against my friend Jessie for a couple years and really wanted to see him win a National Championship.
ROC wood on my wall?  It would be hard to make me feel insulted about that... ;D

And I'd still prefer not to have to race against the guys who do it for a living.  They don't have the job and the mortgage in their minds on the first lap, and they just ride with different levels of risk and agression than the rest of us.
This isn't about winning.  It's about surviving.  Local fast guys can run the same lap times as travelling pros, but they've been racing with the slower locals for years and know how much slack each needs to be passed safely.  Hobby racers like me don't mind being beaten, we mind being stuffed, slammed, injured and then verbally abused by poaching professionals who have no sense of responsibility to anything but winning the purse money.
As I said before, if that's what it takes to be a pro, go race pro.  There are plenty of club racers who would rather compete than run track days, but we're too fast to be amateurs and with no desire to be pros.  Rosno suggested a three tier system, but some could argue that CCS has that already with  Amateur, Expert and Formula USA.  The real problem is that the guys from the top level can still dip back to the middle level whenever they want.  That's dangerous (and a bit unfair) for the guys in the middle.  As a reasonably quick expert, I'd LOVE to dip back into the amateur ranks to steal their trophys and money... No, wait...  I wouldn't like that.  That's why I took a white plate in the first place...
I've been asked to come up with a definition of pro.  Here's my take on it.  I don't know how WERA does it, but FUSA and AMA require a special license to be a competitor.  If you licence as a pro and run those races, you would be ineligable to run club races with experts that year.  If in later years you decided to be an expert instead of a pro, just don't buy the pro license and don't compete in pro races that season.  One or the other.  This would probably make the majority of the people responding to this thread happy.  I know that it would resolve all the complaints I have made in this thread.

So you're saying you'd like to limit the guys who want to push themselves by racing against the actual Pros to not being able to go club racing - how is that fair?  

QuoteIt's about surviving.  Local fast guys can run the same lap times as travelling pros, but they've been racing with the slower locals for years and know how much slack each needs to be passed safely.  Hobby racers like me don't mind being beaten, we mind being stuffed, slammed, injured and then verbally abused by poaching professionals who have no sense of responsibility to anything but winning the purse money.
 

So it has nothing to do with winning?  Sorry but that's bullshit.  The whole thread is about Rapp winning Jesse's championship.  If you'd like to start a thread about dangerous riding you'll get no argument from me that it's unnacceptable.

I am curious, you accuse me of taking things off topic when I haven't done so - would you care to rail on yourself a bit?  

More later but I have work to do.

In the meantime please try to separate what you're are arguing about into clearer categories - rough riding, no qualification for the ROC, and fast guys taking stuff from the slower club racers.

QuoteI am curious, you accuse me of taking things off topic when I haven't done so - would you care to rail on yourself a bit?  

In the meantime please try to separate what you're are arguing about into clearer categories - rough riding, no qualification for the ROC, and fast guys taking stuff from the slower club racers.

I don't think I had accused you about taking things off topic.  Yes, I am discussing several topics at once here, but at least to me they are interrelated.  Because I'm enjoying the opportunity to discuss these things with you, I will continue to address all three of my concerns.
I don't think "rough riding" is necessarily what I'm talking about.  That really sounds like it would have to be malicious and intentional.  Pros race differently from most experts.  They are faster and more agressive.  They can't just "turn it off" when they race club guys, and the mix of styles is what causes the problems.  I think that few pros would willfully punt slower experts for fun...

The ROC qualifying thing has been talked to death.  This race should be the final destination for club racers who have spent the year working towards Daytona as their goal.  If a rider hasn't spent the year earning the right to compete for a national championship, many of us feel that he should not be allowed into the final race.  In the case of a pro racer, he stands an excellent chance of winning the race against the club racers.  To crown any racer as the National Champion  when he did not contest the series all summer is disgraceful, and makes the entire preceding season rather meaningless.  Several good suggestions have been made on this thread to remidy that problem.

To paraphrase the comments of several posts on this thread, it is clear that many of us feel that Expert  club level racing is still "Amateur Racing," as opposed to Pro racing.  As you would not let the experts poach the amateur trophies and money, you should not let the pros poach from the experts.

You said that I wasn't being truthfull when I said that it wasn't about winning.  Perhaps in a sense you are right, but yet again, I'll point out that it isn't about ME winning.  I'm half-a-lap per sprint race off a winning pace, as are probably half the experts involved in club racing.  Exempting the pros from expert level club racing will not suddenly earn me money or trophies.  It's really more about the spirit of club racing.  Consider if there was money involved in winning a high school football game.  Should an NFL player with an evening off be allowed to compete and maul the kids for a chance at some spare spending money?  And after all, isn't it really all about the money?  Why would a pro racer risk his body and his equipment in a club race if it wasn't for money?  He's already proven that he can win regularly at that level and has moved on.  That's why we call this behavior poaching.  Club racing should be something that you graduate from, or stay with if that's as far as you wish to climb the ladder.

I had mentioned previously that racers too experienced for amateur and not willing or able to race at the level of pro riders feel a bit squeezed with the current "catch-all" status of expert.  It seems that many of the friends That I have made through racing have scaled back or quit racing because of this.  It seems like that would be costing the club money, doesn't it?  I guess that this would be yet a fourth topic?

Because of your position in WERA, it is interesting to be able to discuss these issues with you.  It is especially nice when we don't waste brain power trying to make each other angry!

  

Well, with that post I agree.  Except the money part, the vast majority of riders fade out after a couple of years, and most of them never reach Expert status much less get burned out because of who they are racing against.  Not having to race against the pros at the club level is really simple, you just have to pick the right class(es).  I totally agree on the finals being a special race, a type of bonus for the riders that have supported us all season long.

Our rules work fine for keeping the Pros out of our finals.  Rapp as an example cannot run them, he could run at the event in the National Challenge Series races he ran at Barber but that would only get him some points and not a Championship.  

I don't see an equitable solution to keep pros from coming to the local club races for some extra money.  I also don't really see a need and based on this thread alone most riders don't mind the occasional club race.  If they do it all the time then they are club racers and should get a shot at the final like anyone else.  

So basically - a system for qualifying for the ROC would cure the ills that started this thread and it really doesn't have much to do with Pro's or non Pro's at all...

QuoteSo basically - a system for qualifying for the ROC would cure the ills that started this thread and it really doesn't have much to do with Pro's or non Pro's at all...

Yes.  Like I said last post, that one's been talked to death.  I really liked the idea of a regional champ starting with 65 points to add to 65 more if he won at Daytona.  It would keep pro poachers out of the ROC, because they couldn't be champion if they walked into the race without season points.
You mentioned selecting classes where the pros don't race.  What classes would those be?  In CCS, it would be Lightweight, the weird sportsman classes, and Formula Forty.  In WERA, even the light classes have Mark Junge on an SV.  I believe those would be the very classes you were dismissing earlier in this thread.
I doubt we'll ever agree on this issue.  I've stated it as many ways as I can.  If Mark Junge, Steve Rapp, Eric Bostrom or Valinteno Rossi wants to come race as a club level expert, then the price should be to relinquish their pro status and just race club events.  Not that they CAN'T race as a club level expert, just that they CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.  And I do think it's about money.  What professional athlete in any sport would risk his money-making body by competing at a level below professional if it wasn't for the money?  An expert rider must fill out extra paperwork, meet additional criteria and pay extra money to get a pro license, so it is obviously a seperate catagory from expert.  In baseball, "Being sent back to the minors" is a punishment for poor performance.  Can you think of any other sports with a professional level where it is acceptable to climb back down the ladder and cherry pick on your off weekends?  
That's my opinion.  You don't have to agree with it, but if you disagree, then tell me why experts aren't allowed to enter the amateur money races?  To me, it seems hypoctytical.  If pros can do it to experts, then experts can do it to amateurs, right?

K3 Chris Onwiler wrote
I've been asked to come up with a definition of pro.  Here's my take on it.  I don't know how WERA does it, but FUSA and AMA require a special license to be a competitor.  If you licence as a pro and run those races, you would be ineligable to run club races with experts that year....

To paraphrase the comments of several posts on this thread, it is clear that many of us feel that Expert  club level racing is still "Amateur Racing," as opposed to Pro racing....

I had mentioned previously that racers too experienced for amateur and not willing or able to race at the level of pro riders feel a bit squeezed with the current "catch-all" status of expert.

Mongo wrote
Except the money part, the vast majority of riders fade out after a couple of years, and most of them never reach Expert status much less get burned out because of who they are racing against.  Not having to race against the pros at the club level is really simple, you just have to pick the right class(es).

Good points guys.

First, I stated before that club road racing I believe is loosly defined as "sportsman pro/am racing".  It is really racing for the racer, not really a spectator event.  Additionally, it's not really meant for a way for the racers to make a living.  

To make it that a "pro" license holder cannot club race would be disasterous.  Well, I've had a FUSA license for some time, so you'd have to count me out.  Bill Hitchcock couldn't come because he had an AMA Pro license so he could get into the AMA races easily.  Ed Key couldn't have came because he runs Thunderbike.  Count out Mark Stiles.  How about Dan Doty?  

The disaster would be that either you would have people that never return to road racing after a one off "pro" stint, or they never try to go pro.  

I think that having riders that last only two years is terrible.  It's been that way for years also.  I think Kurt Hall was the first guy to tell me that number.  If it hasn't changed, which it hasn't, why can't something be changed at the organizational level?  Mongo and Kevin (who hasn't chimed in, but that doesn't mean he isn't watching), this would be for you.  

Over five seasons, I've worked to take riders into my school and teach them some things that keeps them from getting burned out.  Doesn't neccessarily work on the brand new racer as they usually listen to the people that are the closest to them it seems.  By far, my biggest and most regular school customers are current amateur and expert road racers.  If they keep racing beyond the two year cycle that is regular, the whole industry of racing is served.

How?  Well, first, you actually get more knowledgeable racers out there that spend money over a longer period of time.  Good for the racing organization, good for the tire guys, etc.

Second, with all the "stupid" two year amateurs out there that proliferate the regular motorcycling population, you'll actually have people that stay in it longer with more knowledge to pass to the people that don't know anything.  Honestly, how much time do most people that race pretty regularly have to talk about their experiences with regular riders?  Not much.  You talk to your racing friends.  

Third, with the two year racers proliferating racing, who wants to sponsor any regular racer?  Again, if a dealership actually decides that a one year amateur that turns expert is worth giving cash to, but then he races that one year, does poorly and quits...what kind of a representation of the sport is that?  

Conclusions?

Is it a bad thing to have people go away after two years?  Yes.  What to do.

Here's my take, and here's why.  First, I'm unique in that I've raced from Pomona to Loudon, from Steamboat to Robeling, from Laguna to Daytona, from Phoenix to Road Atlanta.  I've done AMA, CRA, WERA, AHRMA, MRA, CMRA...NESBA, STT, Hammer...everything from 125 GP bikes to GSXR1100 superbikes.  I'm poor, and I've never had a lot of money, not to say that I've spent wisely all the time.  So, I've seen it all come and go as a racer, not from the rules and adminstration side.  Not that you, Mongo, and Kevin Elliot don't recognize things, but I do have a real perspective of trying to get sponsors, pay my racing bills, and things that give me stress in the middle of the night that you would not have to really think about.

Every rider should have a reasonable opportunity to enter into the sport simply and easily.  There are licensing schools coming out of the yin yang everywhere.  People come, but they don't race.    

Why?  First, the outward appearance of amateur racing is that there are sand baggers.  True or not true?  In my opinion, very true.  When I started out, we all wanted out of the "novice" class so that we could try to make Suzuki Cup Money.  The guy I started with was a novice for one year before going expert, I had to do two years.  I was disappointed, but I worked harder.  Currently, there are riders that retain their amateur status for years.

"Amateur" racing should be a beginning stage of racing where you are able to ride anything reasonable and learn something, even though that might only be through just being around it.  Limited classes, with a maximum time limit for being in the class...180 mos?  Most guys will bump to the next class relatively quickly, but some people, for various reasons, might take longer.  I'm sure everyone has seen the noob amateur that really struggles.

Next, after a period of time, there should be another level of licensing.  This would be where the largest population of recreational racers should be.  Notice the term I used..."recreational racers".  Really everyone races for fun, but it's still fun to ride with guys that you actually compete with.  If you're a guy on a budget and you start out racing with a Yamaha FZR400 in amateur lightwieght Supersport/stock or something.  You do ok, you have fun.  You get bumped to expert, now you have to "race" Ed Key or Bradley Champion.  When I got bumped to expert, I had to race Scott Russell.  It didn't bother me, but I think it might bother and potentially intimidate most racers.

So, what to do?  A new classification would be for most of your upper level amateur racers that have been racing for a period of time and some expert riders.  These riders SHOULD be the life blood of most organizations.  They enter a good number of races, they come to some regular number of events, and their final finishing postion is not necessarily the most important thing to them.  They are there to have fun, but they don't want to feel in the way or like second class riders...yeah, I know they are the second class in this set up, but...

More classes to race but keep it fun.

Next, the upper level class.  Do you call it pro?  Nah, I don't thing so, but it should be for the guys that are trying to be faster, remain faster, or are trying to move up.  I've done this for a long time, so this class is for me, it's probably the next stepping stone for a guy like Benji Thornton who's gonna try to do something bigger.  Would a guy like K3 want to be in this class?  Might want to if things worked out right, but he might not.

What would the gain be for running in the higher classification?  Purse money.  Drawbacks?  Fewer classes, higher entry fees, and potentially faster riders to compete against.  Is it an ending destination for a rider?  Probably not necessarily.  I can see where a rider may try that class but feels that the class below is more appropriate.  In the midwest, we had a rider that was an expert in 2002 move back to amateur for 2003.  He did really well as an amatuer.  What kind of a message does that send a guy that comes to the Learning Curves school on Saturday and tries to race on Sunday?


Honestly, amateur racing, the classification, is out of control if you ask me.  All to often, I hear about the previous years of experience that some winners of ROC and the GNF have.  How fair is that?  Kind of goes back to the "if you followed the series" problem again:  follow the whole region's races and you get rewarded with being bumped to expert in two years.  Mess around and hit various races with different organizations, different regions, and you can make a splash in the amateur finals...lots of press...after being a six year amateur.  I'm not saying that it happens all the time, but it does happen with some regularity.

Am I the only one that sees this need for three classifications and how it would help the racing, the organizations, etc?

QuoteAm I the only one that sees this need for three classifications and how it would help the racing, the organizations, etc?

     I have a couple questions Dave. Would your license reflect what level racer you were? Would level 3 racers still be able to compete in level 2 races? Would level 2 racers be able to compete in level 3 races, and if so what stops the whole situation of a true level 3 racer getting licensed as a level 2 and also doing level 3 races as well? I realize that there are different reward structures for level 2 and 3, but I bet you would still see quite a bit of racing in level 2 by level 3 racers if allowed to do so (and since that means more entry fees paid, I would imagine they would be allowed to).

     Just trying to identify any points of controversy.

Good question, Mike.

No, the races would be exclusive to the licensing option.

I would see myself as a level three guy.  Yeah, I'm pretty recreational, but I can still do some decent laps, right?  And the purse would be attractive.  The bump to level three would almost have to be by personal preference.  

A rider that can go pretty quick could get some amount of return in level three racing.  Surely, the level two riders will still be very, very quick, but there wouldn't be the need to expend a great amount of risk or huge expense for more trophy only type programs, right?

I don't have all the answers on this but...

Then someone would have to adapt the program, also.

QuoteGood question, Mike.

No, the races would be exclusive to the licensing option.

I would see myself as a level three guy.  Yeah, I'm pretty recreational, but I can still do some decent laps, right?  And the purse would be attractive.  The bump to level three would almost have to be by personal preference.  

A rider that can go pretty quick could get some amount of return in level three racing.  Surely, the level two riders will still be very, very quick, but there wouldn't be the need to expend a great amount of risk or huge expense for more trophy only type programs, right?

I don't have all the answers on this but...

Then someone would have to adapt the program, also.

     Another possibility could be to let level 2 racers race in level 3 to test themselves against the faster guys, but without being allowed to collect any winnings there (trophies, contingencies, or purse) unless they formally get their license upgraded to level 3.

No, you can't have it both ways.

Want to test and compare?  Check your lap times from your own race and compare them to the other.  You make the decision from there.

My suggestion was that a rider should choose.  Everyone plans their year in advance.  Decide to be a pro or a club level expert before the season starts, buy the appropriate liscense, and enter the appropriate races.  If you find the pro series not to your liking, you could sign up as an expert the following year and race at club level.  Even Rossi or Bostrom could race as an expert, but that would mean he couldn't also race pro that season.  This would keep club racing for the club racers, and if retired pros wanted to come race with us, they would be welcome!
I've never won money as an expert.  That's OK.  Faster guys got the cash, and they deserved it.  But when I was an amateur, there was always someone to race with.  When I had a bone stock FZR, I raced my heart out for 15th place.  When I got better and built a competitive bike,  I raced my heart out for the podium.  This year as an expert, I raced nobody.  I had one good dice all year.  Not much excitement for a 16 round season, and my racecraft suffered.  Expert grids with five to eight riders meant that I got left by some, left others, and rode around lonely for eight laps.  Boring!
I really think that the current expert class puts off many riders.  I didn't want to move up.  I did it because I had achieved success as an amateur and felt that I needed to leave that opportunity to those coming up behind me.  I moved from Lightweight to Heavyweight this season, as well as moving from amateur to expert.  If I had stayed a Heavyweight amateur, there would have been several riders who would have kicked my butt, and many more to dice with.  
Was I well served by becoming an expert?  No.  In my case, it took the fun right out of racing.  Right now I'm trying to justify the time and money to fun ratio and convince myself to continue racing.  Many who have faced this issue before me have quit.  (I know this to be true, because many of these guys were my friends and mentors.  Now that I'm expert, they're gone, and I was really looking forward to racing against them.)  I really love this sport, but one more year like this and I'll probably be gone too.  Since my situation is by no means unique, I feel that something should be done, if only from a buisness standpoint.  That has been my motivation for participating in this thread as extensively as I have.

Chris, but making riders make a decision to do club racing or pro racing will do several things.  First, it will not make the competition easier.  If you require someone with a "pro" license, and I have that in quotes becuase it is only a points and purchasing thing...it still doesn't make anyone money, to only do "pro" races, not club events, they will have to make a decision.  If you're a guy like Dan Doty or myself, well, I don't think either of us have a whole lot of money, I'm gonna have to choose staying close to home for business reasons.  To go do AMA pro for a season, you're gonna need about $70k.  FUSA is cheaper, but the press is different too.  Additionally, now that you have a pro license, now, under your proposal, I have no set up time at all.  I can't do a local race to work on anything.  Meanwhile, Mladin and Yates have gone to Malaysia to test their new bike or something.  

Decisions will be made.  Potentially, guys will just stay really really fast club racers.  I'm sure Larry Denning would just do his Yamaha racing at the club level.  Considering that he does 1:09's at Blackhawk and holds a few more lap records, it doesn't change anything for him or for you.

Fun out of racing?  Yeah, it happens.  In 1989 I would have been better off selling everything and putting my money in a CD a 1% interests.  Or maybe going into farming, another business where to make a small fortune, you start with a large one.

Chris, ultimately, you know that it's the deep friendships that keep us involved.  Sometimes, you have to step back and regroup, change things, etc.  Often times that first year as an expert has a lot of growing pains.  Can't explain where they come from...high expectations, too many bike changes, weather, luck, etc.  Those were many of my problems in 1989.  I made a decision.

OK, Dave.  I'd really like your opinion.
I'm not going to name names, because that would be kind of mean and unfair to them.  Since you and I are both midwest racers, you know the guys I'm talking about.  How many racers have you seen dissapear who you knew still had plenty of money to race?  These guys were pretty good, and they did fairly well.  They're awesome people, and those "Deep Friendships" that you speak of continue over the phone or in person, even though the guys don't come around the track any more.
Basically, they just got discouraged.  I'm feeling it too.  I could go back to racing amateur and have Ike, Stumpy, Simon, Steviebee, Benji and others whip me up one side and down the other, with new heros arriving daily.  But I'd be a part of some competition, and I'd have more fun.  Surely I'd get faster.  As an expert, what do I have to look forward to?  Eventually being passed by the fastest amatuers in a two wave race?  Woo Hoo!  Excuse me if I'm underwhelmed.
Look at the competition I faced last year.  Those guys were awesome, and our every race together was one worth watching.  I'd like to go back to amateur, if only to find some competition.  Until I can hang with you, Jessie, Purk, Gorden and Tez, I've got no one to race with.  And the less wheel-to-wheel racing I do, the less proficient I become.  I might as well be doing track days.
CCS needs to find a place for the average rider who can no longer be an amateur.  I really believe that this is costing motorcycle racing many, many participants. (i.e. customers)  As my teacher, guru and buddy, how many times did I discuss this very thing with you over the season?  Where are my rivals from last year?  All gone.  I'm the only one who stayed.  Why?  Doesn't this problem bode ill for CCS and racing in general?  I'd really like to help fix it, because racing is my main passion in life, and I can't imagine life without it.  

QuoteOK, Dave.  I'd really like your opinion.

Basically, they just got discouraged.  I'm feeling it too.

But I'd be a part of some competition, and I'd have more fun.  Surely I'd get faster.  As an expert, what do I have to look forward to?

CCS needs to find a place for the average rider who can no longer be an amateur.

Doesn't this problem bode ill for CCS and racing in general?  I'd really like to help fix it, because racing is my main passion in life, and I can't imagine life without it.  

I think you're hitting it on the head.  

Mongo, feel free to chime in...Kevin too if you're out there "listening".

The racing organizations spend a good deal of money trying to get people in, only to see them leave after two years.  The trend is continuing.  At times, race entries are down.  Meanwhile, track days continue to flourish.  

When I started racing, there were no track days.  

Additionally, when I started racing, I believe the median age of racers was in the twenties, where it is now in the mid thirties.

As a racer, I see little done to try to attract me in to remaining in a series.  CCS doesn't reward my continued appearance in a series with good grids or any minor pay out at the end of the year.  I could take it or leave it depending upon where I wanted to race.  What has kept me doing is has been my school program, in spite of the lack of understanding from Blackhawk Farms or who ever in CCS's organization decided that my dates were the ones they needed.  

So, Chris, yeah, you would be perfect for the ideas of a three tiered structure in "club" or Pro/Am racing.  

Will anyone do it?  I can't say.

I haven't made the proposal myself.  I'm kind of tired of giving my input;  it doesn't seem to go too far, and occasionally, you don't feel appreciated in being right anyway.

The fuel rules are just a representative problem.  Maybe I should leave those in place just so I can bust everyone...LOL.  

Racing is my life too, so I understand your passion.  I work really hard to help racers make sense of things.  But certainly the racers don't get asked by the racing organizations what they can do...guess we all must be just customers.

QuoteAs you would not let the experts poach the amateur trophies and money, you should not let the pros poach from the experts.

Chris, good points, but a bit unrealistic. There are plenty of guys that have been experts who have come back with yellow plates after some time off and won "amateur" championships. That's poaching just as much, IMHO.

I don't know if there have been plenty.  In our neck of the woods, they all have been amateurs until this years deal.

QuoteChris, good points, but a bit unrealistic. There are plenty of guys that have been experts who have come back with yellow plates after some time off and won "amateur" championships. That's poaching just as much, IMHO.

I agree.  Basically, I moved to expert because I'd had success there, and it was time to leave it to the new arrivals.  I don't want to go back.  But what I've seen this year in expert is that there are four or five expert guys who can hang with a pro if one shows up.  Then there's me and one or two other guys.  That's the whole expert grid.  The fast guys leav, and by lap two my race is over.
There were a bunch of amateurs this year with lap times quicker than mine, and many more behind them running at my pace.  If the fastest amateurs caught me in a two wave race, I let them go rather than ruin their race by racing with them.  If I'd been an amateur, I have had people to race with.
I don't want to poach one single amateur trophy or contingency dollar.  I've had mine.  But I'd like to be able to race with guys running my speed.  I can't even race amateurs with a clear concience, because I remember how frustrating it was as an amateur to get a slower expert caught up in our fight.  
I'd like to think that I'll get faster and join the battle out front.  But right now I'm riding alone in a void.  Ironically, I'm getting trophies for it too!  I'll get a fourth or a fifth, and there won't be a soul in front or behind as far as the eye can see.  That's kind of hollow.  I'd rather give up the trophy and have someone to race with.

K3, you can come over to Pittsburgh (Beaverun) track days and kick my a** around the track  ;D  ;D
Seriously, though, what are the benefits of endurance racing? Doesn't strategy play an important part of the race, as well as different rider skills? Sprint racing is fun if its a level field, but I'm not sure it is. Remember when I wanted to ride my tricked out RC in the F40 race and I couldn't because I had slicks, aftermarket wheels, brakes, forks, yadda', yadda'? So I ride the SV instead, get my butt handed to me and after the race, who rolls in behind me on the MV Agusta with slicks on? None other than a team owner I guess; but a known regular at BHF. I "should" have rolled the RC up to the grid and argued about it IF it came up.
That's OK, now I know how the game is played and "I'll be back" [Schwartzenegger voice] ;D

Endurance racing? :D  Why do you bring that up Doug?  Looking for a partner? ;)  You have my E mail address...

QuoteSo I ride the SV instead, get my butt handed to me and after the race, who rolls in behind me on the MV Agusta with slicks on? None other than a team owner I guess; but a known regular at BHF. I "should" have rolled the RC up to the grid and argued about it IF it came up.
That's OK, now I know how the game is played and "I'll be back" [Schwartzenegger voice] ;D

LOL, Johnny "Reno" on the MV.  Did he screw up and run it with slicks?  Team owner, no, but he infused some cash into the program he was hanging with.  

QuoteThere were a bunch of amateurs this year with lap times quicker than mine, and many more behind them running at my pace.  I'd rather give up the trophy and have someone to race with.

Sounds like you'll have some folks to race with next year when those amatuers get promoted to expert. ;)  Unless they sandbag it and petition to stay amateur.  I'm in the same boat.  Too bad you're not in the MA, at least I'd have someone to race with. ;D

QuoteSounds like you'll have some folks to race with next year when those amatuers get promoted to expert. ;)  Unless they sandbag it and petition to stay amateur.  I'm in the same boat.  Too bad you're not in the MA, at least I'd have someone to race with. ;D

I just want to share your sponsorship.  I need a cool James Bond bike.  If a pro punts me then, RAT A TAT RAT A TAT RAT A TAT!! ;D
Curse you Red Baron!

Maybe you need a tow vehicle like this to intimidate the opposition!
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.layke.com%2Ffiles%2FIbis2.jpg&hash=d9ff07ca4ed07575783a3096fb3432395e8064ed)

Chris - what is discouraging to these riders that you're talking about?  Not winning or as you say is your case, not having anyone to run with?

It sounds like it's probably the former because I think you siad that you've run with them in the past and they've run with each other so finding a race within a race wouldn't be the problem.

I have left it alone for a while. I orginally posted that we should have a different leveling system to stop the sandbagging and thinning of the expert field.

My season is over. I have way enough points to move to EX. I tasted some sucess this year, in a very competitive region where AM grids are usually full.

So I am planning my next year. I decided to do FUSA only. The idea of running by myself for 7 laps after the leading experts have left is NOT appealing. So I am spending money to ride around by myself? I can do track days for free man...

So even though I am not quite fast enough, I am going to do the FUSA races. Less weekends, less money (yes it is) more track time, and have some people to race with. And more chance to get better.

So CCS has kind of just lost my entry fees for 16 weekends to 8, and I am only racing 2 classes. How much money did CCS, the vendors and everyone else just lost?

I don't want to stay AM. I want to move forward, step up and get somewhere and do somethings. But many of us fast AM's doesn't quite have the drive and determination as me.

My teammate is dreading racing EX next year. He does not want to stay AM(too dangerous, not right), but not quite as fast as me. So he is going to be left by a lot of EX, including me maybe. So he will be in the back, of a small grid. Sometimes this year we have 6 people racing the EX CCS sportbike race that pays to 10th place! while AM MWSS have 50 on the grid.

Experts are rare. only 1-2 fast AM's from 2002 raced a big portion of this season. Names I am so used to are no longer on scoring sheets. I think if my teammater does poorly next year, and end up racing by himself a lot, he is going to scale back or quit all together. I would continue to improve until I can keep up with the front guys, or forever (well...) trying, but he is not going to.

So in my conclusion, if the fast guys can be in level 3 competiting for cash and more, then level 2 is open to slower ex's and fast AM's for trophies, some payback and giggles, then we would all have a place to race. They can stay there as long as they wish, without controvesy.

So how about this...
level 3:
GT races with purse
ULGP with purse
sportbike with purse
thunderbike with purse

Level 2:
GT races with purse
all other classes without purse, but contigency

level 1
GT races no purse
1 LW/MW/HW class each plus F40, 1 sportsman class
no purse, less contigency

I don't think it make sense to have all the AM classes anyway. most of us race all the classes with the same bike, and the modification allowences dont really make much difference in laptime in AM ranks anyway...

And when FUSA comes to town, the level 3 combines with FUSA classes.

this set up, level 3 races can compete for money in at least 2 races each weekend. Fast guys usually dont want to risk their equipment in a lot of races anyway, and we can make the races a little longer.

Level 2 will give all kinds of options for club racers to race, lots of races, and some rewards.

level 1 will get you in the door, and if you want more, move up after a certain amount of experiences. Most noobs only enter 2-3 races a weekend anyway, and they wont complain the limited amount of races available to them.

And by cutting some classes, we will have enough time to get all theses races in every weekend.

What do you think?

as a 42 year old former race car driver and am motocross racer looking in.I have been wanting to road race for a long time and have been looking at both wera and ccs boards for the past couple of months to learn as much as i can. so here is my outside take on this subject.
   first off this form of racing is the first that i have seen where a person can race one race all year and win a national championship..it should not be that way. racers work very hard all year long to acheive goals in season championships,not just on the race track but hours and hours of preparation the week before.i would work 3 or 4 nights on week on my car or bike. I feel that to be eligable to win a national championship,you should participate in a majority of your regional races or be in the top 5 . i feel it degrades all the other competitors when someone just comes in and takes it away.
    as far as competition goes,your always going to have fast guys and slow ones, racers that have top notch equiptment and ones that dont.that is the way it is in all forms of racing. when i raced cars i didnt have the newest or the fastest, and couldnt afford $400 tires every week,but it was a 5-10 car and as long as i didnt wreck i broke even money wise.it was alot of fun. the first year finished 12 in championship,2nd year finished 8th. very proud of my trophys,they mean something because of hard work and alot of fun..Motorcycle racing doesnt come close to  breaking even .that is way i think championships should be worked for and respected.i dont see that here. maybe iam wrong.

which by the way, if the rules are as I stated, I will do the FUSA series and the CCS series in level 3, and my involvement will be the same as this year. And my teammate would probably stay in level 2, and always find competition. He does really care about the purses, but a little chance for success is always nice.

QuoteSo I am planning my next year. I decided to do FUSA only. The idea of running by myself for 7 laps after the leading experts have left is NOT appealing. So I am spending money to ride around by myself? I can do track days for free man...

So even though I am not quite fast enough, I am going to do the FUSA races. Less weekends, less money (yes it is) more track time, and have some people to race with. And more chance to get better.

So CCS has kind of just lost my entry fees for 16 weekends to 8, and I am only racing 2 classes. How much money did CCS, the vendors and everyone else just lost?

Do you really think yer gonna have any more 'race' time running F/USA?  I ran the series this year and like most of my club races, I spent 90% by myself.

Also, CCS/Vendors really isn't loosing much money, but yer losing track time.  Its gonna cost you double in entry fees, use twice as much tire, etc.

Are you going to do the supporting CCS races at the F/USA rounds?

In the end, the only person you're hurting is yourself.

What I REALLY wanna know is why are experts so rare and why do they quit.  Sure, money is a reason, etc.  I'm willing to bet that they get tired of seeing the same names taking all the contingency, trophies, etc, etc.  

I've been doing this for 5 years now, and as much as I and other think we're gonna get better and catch the leaders, just about every MW/HW race in our series is/was won by Scott Greenwood or Jeff Wood (and/or Eric Wood if he races that weekend).  The only exception is if there is a big AMA event the same weekend and they don't show or its season end and the championships are already locked up.  These guys are even teamates so they coordinate which races they won't compete against each other.  We used to have Chouniard and Conboy but they finally kinda hung it up this year.  People don't even really look at results anymore--we all know who won, we hear the same names again and again and again that it almost becomes a joke.

Yes, these guys are fast.  But they're in a league of their own.  I mean, these guys run lap times that are usually 1-2 seconds faster than the 2nd place.  By the end of the race they have a good 10 second lead.  Now, they can't be enjoying just going out and obliterating everyone 6-7 times a weekend with no competition, etc.  They do it for the money, contingency, etc to support their F/USA or AMA plans.

There is no easy way to fix this.  We can bang out heads against the walls all day to try to add some ruling which would restrict top top top riders from grabbing all the loot. (ie--pro licenses, pro points, pro placing, more tier levels, income level, etc)

But lets be real.  CCS is an business, its not a club.  One thing I've definitely learned over the years is we have virtually no say.  Sure, there are channels for input--but they don't change anything.  CCS officials don't wish to add any wording to restrict entries, limit participants, let alone add more regulation or paperwork (or god forbid REAL work).  CCS learned it methods from AMA, we just have to either sit back and suck it up or vote with out wallets (won't help, there's always another wallet to replace ours).  Amatuers by us run 4-6 races a weekend.  Experts run 2, maybe 3.  Why would CCS want to change anything--they have a perfect business model!!  Let the experts leave and replace them with more profitable amatuers.

Face it--we're screwed.  I hope (and believe) both Kevin Elliot and Tiffany Ingram are lurking on this thread, because I'm very dissapointed in CCS in terms of management, communication, and fairness.  I find their 'pro series' F/USA to be a joke and hardly worth contending.  I hope the powers that be see this and find our discontentment concerning.  There are other shows in town (especially if yer in WERA regions).  

Anyway, I'll get off the soapbox.  We're getting off topic anyway (and back to it--Daytona ROC CCS events should be by invite only for those who have competed in MORE than 4 CCS events for the year)

QuoteDo you really think yer gonna have any more 'race' time running F/USA?  I ran the series this year and like most of my club races, I spent 90% by myself.

Also, CCS/Vendors really isn't loosing much money, but yer losing track time.  Its gonna cost you double in entry fees, use twice as much tire, etc.

Are you going to do the supporting CCS races at the F/USA rounds?

Quotewell I have been following race and qualifying times, there seems to be a few guys that I can race with in the FUSA races, more so than CCS races.

I am going to do 1-2 support races at combined events, and doing so allow me to practice twice a rotation plus some race set up time.

It actaully is not going to cost me any more money. I did at least 7 CCS races per weekend this year. I used just as many tires as I would racing the 2 FUSA races. and I am not going to loose track time, there are more practice groups to be in, there is qualifying, there is the long races. Instead of 2 pracitce session and 5 lap sprints.

It seems like a no win situation. We are not going to win. The business model is there ( I would question if it is a good one since CCS seem so desperately NOT profitable) so its up to us to fit ourselves in.

Yes there are other shows in town, but who are winning those races? I am not going to worry that greenwood, or wood, or whoever beats me because I should be going just as fast. If I can't keep up, I need to get better equipment, or I am just not that quick. Whats unfair about that? Maybe a little boring, but joy of racing shouldn't all come from winning the race. I do want to win the race, but I will be JUST AS SATISFIED if I just win the race against myself.

I guess I am a bad case study. I am going to press on racing no matter what, as long as I am able to. But I also hold concerns for the others and the whole industry. And not being to see familiar faces and know everyone at the track because they all quit kinda sucks.

I talk to at least 5 people who wants to start racing every track day. And those 5 people will hit the races once and I will only see 1 come back. And who knows about next year.

Mid-Atlantic is almost running out of comp. #'s. The roster is awefully long. But how come the turn out don't represent that? Why do people just come and race once a year. CCS, time to look at the numbers and try to make some more money. Good ole way isn't always the good way

QuoteMid-Atlantic is almost running out of comp. #'s. The roster is awefully long. But how come the turn out don't represent that? Why do people just come and race once a year. CCS, time to look at the numbers and try to make some more money. Good ole way isn't always the good way

Well, I know myself and other northeast riders will go to Mid-A events early spring and late fall to make up for the cold weather we get up here.  We also have pretty much run out of numbers that many riders get Mid-A licenses and numbers instead.  Lots of guys renew their license and do one race every two years to retain their one/two digit number (a whole 'nother can of worms).

Good luck to ya in F/USA, maybe I'll see you out there.  I know in F/USA Superbike the grids were kind weak.  At Daytona I was top 10 when I crashed in the west horseshoe and although I got back up and finished (without getting lapped :D :D) I finished last--which was still 17th place.  I'd expert more competitors for a national event.

cool, hope to see ya on the grid. I am going to go to the spring Daytona again, and I think grids will be even weaker being fast guys that comes to ROC may not show for Daytona. I just love the bike week :) and that track...

Oh ya the numbering thing. I am trying very hard to get a double or single digit number  8) it just cost too much in numbers right now, and I don't think they will fit on my new bike  :D

I don't think that system will be reformed, I guess I just have to get lucky...

Okay, I'm going to break this down into chunks.

-- National Championships (and making them really mean what they should)

1) Give people points according to their best regional class placing. Regional champs start the race with 65 points, etc. down to the top 50 riders from each region. Give them points on the same schedule according to how they finish at the ROC. Thus, the maximum points a rider could have towards a National Championship is 130. Ties go to the person who finishes better at the ROC.

2) Grid by qualifying times. The point system gives people an appropriate advantage based on how they did during the season. Gridding by qualifying is, to me, the only truly fair way to award grid positions.

This system will eliminate the one-race "wonders" from showing up and winning National Championships. And it will eliminate the people who are fast, but not the fastest, but who can afford to show up at Daytona with Monster HP from winning National Championships. And it will reward the people who are fastest OVER A SEASON.

-- 3-tiered licensing

I don't think this will work.

1) There's few enough people racing now (in CCS). Splitting the groups up even more isn't going to make them more competitive within themselves. MOST of the Amateur grids are legitimate Amateurs. Meaning, moving to a 3-tiered system is not going to affect most of them. Which means, the top 2 tiers are each going to be smaller than the current Expert class. And though it might mean K3 Chris would have one or two more guys to actually dice with, I don't think it would have any significant impact on the number of guys who continue to race versus bailing after 2 years or so.

2) I definitely don't support the idea of saying that current AMA Pro license holders cannot run in Regional events. I would like to be able to enter one or two AMA events next year, just for the experience. I think I can make the qualifying cutoff for the 600 Supersport class at at least some of the tracks that are in my region, and I'd like to try. But that shouldn't prevent me from running the Regional events.

Besides the experience that will give me, I view it as a selling point in my approaches to potential local sponsors. "Yes, I (and your logo) will appear on TV 2 or 3 times this year."

I think you *could* possibly say "you cannot run in Regionals if you participate in 70% or more of the rounds of the AMA Pro series." IF (that's a big if) you could enforce that, I think it would eliminate the "true Pros". But, it would be really hard to enforce it. You'd have to be prepared to enact retro-active penalties, potentially at the end of the season, going all the way back to the beginning of the season. And you'd have to have cooperation from AMA Pro Racing, to get their entry lists, so you'd actually know who participated.

But I also think this whole subject is kind of moot. I don't recall any actual complaints about "Pros" particpating in Regionals (the ROC issue is separate). So why are we worrying about trying to eliminate them from Regionals??

3) It seems that the real problem to be addressed is that there isn't enough people (therefore, competition) running at the Expert level (in CCS - I don't perceive WERA to have this same issue. Maybe Mongo could share some insight with us on why that might be). Obviously, the solution is NOT to move people up more quickly. CCS already moves people up very (arguably, too) quickly.

And that brings up one possible solution. Copy WERA's rules for moving up. It would keep people Amateur longer, which means guys like Chris would stay longer (maybe) and have more fun. And the Expert ranks would be more competitive amongst themselves, thus, hopefully, keeping them around longer.

That's one idea. I don't happen to support it, myself, though. It's just an observation that WERA seems to have much bigger Expert grids, and they also have that difference in their rules, so MAYBE there is a correlation. Personally, I think CCS makes a little too easy to get moved up and WERA makes it too easy to stay Amateur/Novice.

My idea is to change the purse structure. Eliminate all Amateur purses (i.e. GT classes, Sportbike, and Unlimited GP). Make the Expert purses bigger. Make the contingencies for Amateurs smaller (but don't eliminate them - maybe keep the tire contingencies like they are and eliminate the rest), and the Expert ones bigger.

I think this would motivate people to move up and *want* to be Experts, and it would help make racing a little easier, money-wise, which might keep people around longer.

- Stu

of course there is always the LRRS method.

We already have three tiers, Am, JR, and EX.  unfortunately, since JR is only acknowledged at Loudon, no contingency money, have to run EX everywhere else, etc.

If CCS adopted the JR class (run as a 2nd wave with EX) across the board then they'd be in a better position to negotiate for contingency as well as have a place to run where they're not running amatuer but have time before going full blown expert.

I wouldnt mind going back down a level from expert, If I knew it would be more fun.  
  Seeing the same names at the top all the time does get a bit discouraging.  But in the end I dont think enything is going to help when your club will allow a pro/champion/from where ever come in for one race at the end of the season and take the glory away from the riders in that said club who have battled together for it all season.  To allow an outsider who is above the group level to take the prize from the ones that paid for it is just WRONG!  

  I think another way to prevent it from happening again (and I am sure it will) Is to watch for it and when it is going to happen, everyone in the race boycotts.  March right over to the officials and YELL!
Demand your entry fee back.  
It will get you more results.  You probubly will not like those results.  But at least it will produce A result.  And perhaps the Pro who was cutting in will get the Idea, and spread the word. Besides, If noone races, how can he race himself.  The negative feedback alone would be like that Cubs fan.   ;D

This was just a thought.............
  

QuoteI wouldnt mind going back down a level from expert, If I knew it would be more fun.    

Looking back, I actually think it WAS the most fun I had.  There weren't any cherry pickers since all the really fast guys were expert, and that left a bunch of guys who were 2nd rate (like myself) to race together.  I think I diced it out in every race I did as a JR.

Ironically, I only spent two weekends as a JR since I wanted to go EX since JR's weren't recognized anywhere else.

QuoteChris - what is discouraging to these riders that you're talking about?  Not winning or as you say is your case, not having anyone to run with?

It sounds like it's probably the former because I think you siad that you've run with them in the past and they've run with each other so finding a race within a race wouldn't be the problem.

I don't know for absolutely sure, Mongo.  You can't really get inside another man's head.  But it seems to me that they didn't mind not winning as amateurs, but then as experts they found themselves alone at the back.  Soon they weren't coming around any more.
I remember when I started.  Not last was my goal.  Then top 15.  When I became a top 10 guy?  Wow!  Then there was my first top five, and so on.  All along I had people to battle with.  No one this year as an expert.  I wasn't fast enough to hang with the winners, and there were rarely more than 5-10 bikes in the field.
Honestly, I'd rather sign a waiver to not accept the trophies or money, and just go race amateur for the fun of it.  Hopefully some faster slow guys will make the jump to expert for 04, and I'll have some people to battle with and improve with like in my amateur days.

Also Mongo, see if this makes sense to you.  I know it to be true, because I've lived through it.
As an amateur, you look up to the experts.  Now some guys will right away be all about trying to beat them from the back row of the amateur grid.  I saw Jesse Janich do that.  Wow.  But the other 80% of us see the talent that rules expert, be it pro or local club racer, and we just know that we'll probably never be that good.  So what do we do?  We hang out as amateurs for as long as we can, and then we quit.  So many of my friends have gone this route.  I'm hanging in there, but perhaps only because I'm addicted.  Heroin users continue to shoot up long after they stop enjoying the drug, and these days that's kind of how I feel.
Reguardless of their motivation, when you've got fourth and fifth year riders walking away in droves, isn't it bad for buisness?  Maybe the middle-fast guys need their own class to duke it out in before they become top-fast guys.  Some guys get there in a week, some in five years, and some never.  Should there be a middle class, based on lap times?  It might keep more people interested for a longer period, and it might keep certain bikes competitive longer.
I'm just throwing ideas out here.  As you had mentioned earlier, this thread has gone off it's original topic.  But then again, the entire point of discussion, conversation and debate is to let multiple minds work together to evolve ideas and solve problems.

Racing is just that RACING...

I don't want to sound harsh...but...

It's the same in auto racing, airplane racing and submarine racing.  I've watched all of them... there is always going to someone that is better than everyone else.   ;D

If you can't get it together and run with the fast guys... and are a 5th year amateur, perhaps racing bikes isn't the thing for you.

If you run well enough to be a pain to the fastest guys, keep up the good work.  ;D

QuoteYes, these guys are fast.  But they're in a league of their own.  I mean, these guys run lap times that are usually 1-2 seconds faster than the 2nd place.  By the end of the race they have a good 10 second lead.  Now, they can't be enjoying just going out and obliterating everyone 6-7 times a weekend with no competition, etc.  They do it for the money, contingency, etc to support their F/USA or AMA plans.

There is no easy way to fix this.  We can bang out heads against the walls all day to try to add some ruling which would restrict top top top riders from grabbing all the loot. (ie--pro licenses, pro points, pro placing, more tier levels, income level, etc)

Ok, I was going to be off this one but...

People are human.  

This is a competition.

If you're not good enough, work to get better.  Eric, Jeff, Scott, Des, and all those guys and every guy that was fast before them tries to learn new things every year.  They shouldn't be punished for working hard and trying to reap any minor reward that they can get.  

In 1999, I ran the NASB race at Loudon.  I've only been to Loudon once before in 1993 and I earned a spot in "...And They Walked Away, Part IV" from that experience.  

Anyway, I knew that Eric was fast.  Expected others to be fast.  Met Scott Greenwood that weekend.  He helped me around the track a bit.  Still, I kept working on set up, changes, fuel, etc. all the time I was there.  Didn't win, but I expect to come out to Loudon in 2004 for FUSA and do better.  They could bring Doug Polen out and I wouldn't care.  I still want to beat him, and I expect myself to try and potentially do it every time out.  That's racing.

QuoteOk, I was going to be off this one but...

People are human.  

This is a competition.

If you're not good enough, work to get better.  Eric, Jeff, Scott, Des, and all those guys and every guy that was fast before them tries to learn new things every year.  They shouldn't be punished for working hard and trying to reap any minor reward that they can get.  

In 1999, I ran the NASB race at Loudon.  I've only been to Loudon once before in 1993 and I earned a spot in "...And They Walked Away, Part IV" from that experience.  

Anyway, I knew that Eric was fast.  Expected others to be fast.  Met Scott Greenwood that weekend.  He helped me around the track a bit.  Still, I kept working on set up, changes, fuel, etc. all the time I was there.  Didn't win, but I expect to come out to Loudon in 2004 for FUSA and do better.  They could bring Doug Polen out and I wouldn't care.  I still want to beat him, and I expect myself to try and potentially do it every time out.  That's racing.

Ya read me wrong Dave, I'm not putting down any of those guys as 'mean people' or whatnot.  In fact, I consider them all my friends.  I just wanted to point out the fact how these guys win races without even trying.  Our races become setup and extra practice time for them, and they can still easily win.

Come to think of it, I think each and every one has competed in AMA Pro racing successfully

Scott-600ss
Eric-ProThder, SB, 750ss
Jeff-250gp
Des-F-xtreme
Chuck-750ss

I think these guys are just as good as most factory riders, and withOUT the factory support.  They have my utmost respect and awe, but I think we need to examine the licesnce tiering system.  Like others have said, I can't go back and race AM, why can successful Pro riders come back and race EX?

I got it, why not just keep the current system and not require people to move up  :o

then the fast slow guys will always stay and play with the other fast slow guys.

everyone who wants to get even faster will go and race EX.

Reduce EX classes and be more like a FUSA format. And call them Pro Sport or something.

Add newbie classes, 3 weekends you are on to AM.

And NO PURSES in AM classes. "Amateur" is really fitting for most of Experts. Not making a living, but somewhat experienced in the hobbie.

The newbies would be "Novices"

QuoteI don't know for absolutely sure, Mongo.  You can't really get inside another man's head.  But it seems to me that they didn't mind not winning as amateurs, but then as experts they found themselves alone at the back.  Soon they weren't coming around any more.

I guess that's where I'm a little lost - if they raced together as Novices what happened when they went Expert?  Usually I see guys that run together all season move up and continue to run together.

I think the main reasons for people quittting are first a lot of riders start doing the fmaily thing.  Wife, kids, house etc. don't leave time or money for racing.  The other reason is plain old burnout - they just get tired of it.  For some of us it's an addicition, but for the vast majority it's just another hobby and they get tired of it eventually. I don't see a way we can keep either of these gorups racing when they are odne with it.  Also FWIW this is based on talking to alot of people who were around when all of these ideas have been tried before including the tiers and back in the day when racing was cheaper as well as no real money to be won so it was done strictly because they wanted to race.

Quote Also FWIW this is based on talking to alot of people who were around when all of these ideas have been tried before including the tiers and back in the day when racing was cheaper as well as no real money to be won so it was done strictly because they wanted to race.

That's some interesting information...  I guess there's no such thing as an original idea.

Since the Rules Committee meets in a few days, I emailed Kevin Elliot with Dafan's proposal for a points system for National Championships at the ROC. With Kevin's permission, here is a summary of our conversation. If you support this points system, you might want to read all this and then email Kevin yourself. kevinelliott@clearchannel.com

[Vernon]
1) Change the ROC so that somebody cannot just show up for that one race and win a National Championship. That completely belittles the whole concept of being a National Champion. I suggest adopting the following proposal, originally put forth by Dafan Zhang on the CCS BBS.

Award each ROC entrant points based on their best regional standing in that class. Use the same schedule for points as is paid for a sprint race. I.e. 65 points for first (the regional class champ) down to 1 point for 50th.

Award the ROC finishers points as normal.

The National Champ is whoever has the most points. Ties go to whoever finishes higher in the ROC. All the Regional Champs would come in with 65 points (in that class). If one of them wins the race, then they have a total of 130 points and are the new National Champ.

[Elliott]
This unfairly penalizes someone who starts late in the season, especially the Amateurs who will be forced to move up to expert after a good finish at the ROC.(They would never have a chance at an Amateur title.) You wouldn't have the 30-40 entrants in the class either that are needed to make the event a financial success for the speedway. (Be honest, if you knew that even if you won the race at Daytona, a guy could take the National Title from you just by being in the top ten, would you bother to show up? You would have to be dependant on twenty other guys being fast enough to help you, and on the track road racing is not really a team sport.)

[Vernon]
Regarding the specifics of what you said:

- I think the points system is more fair (by far) than having somebody show up for that one race (out of the whole season) and be the National Champ. That just shows that they were the fastest that one day, at that one track. Especially when you consider how different that track is than the ones we normally race at, it makes the concept of CCS National Champ pretty meaningless (compared to what being a National Champ *should* mean).

[Elliott]
A quick look at one class that Rapp won.. The points formula means that if you weren't ranked regionally as a # 1 you couldn't win on your effort alone. That system means that Jessie Janisch, who finished second to Steve Rapp in CCS SportBike, wouldn't have won the title either because his 15th place ranking would have made him 3-4 in the points and the fourth place rider Jeff Purk would have one because his regional "points" ranking of # 2 gave him a better finish. How fair is that in this run-off format?  Jessie came from several rows back to take second and deserved it, but the "points" would have screwed him.  No one wants to have to have a slide rule to figure out who the national champion is, just as in any other sportsman run-off event, the winner is the champion.

... continued ...

[Vernon]
- There *might* be fewer entries, but I doubt it. I think most guys that show up, that weren't in the top 5 in their region, don't really think they have a shot at the championship anyway. So having a smaller chance, because of the points, wouldn't deter them. I have raced the ROC in '91, '92, and '93 and none of those times did I ever think I had any chance whatsoever at winning the race. And: winning a race at Daytona is still winning a race at Daytona. There would be the same glory in that as there is now. EXACTLY, the same, in fact. Race winners should get a trophy just like any other race. They just might not be the National Champ.

[Elliott]
True, there might not be fewer entries, but how many of the Meyers,  Jimenez's, Shaw's who really were contenders would have not entered a race they mathematically couldn't win? As for the difference in wins at Daytona, ask Donnie Unger the difference in glory between "A" race win at Daytona and "A" National Championship. There is a big difference.

[Vernon]
So, if you're still not feeling persuaded, then perhaps you'll answer this: How do you feel about somebody (take Steve Rapp, for example) showing up for, basically, one race (the ROC) and being crowned National Champ, when he didn't really participate in the CCS Regionals all year? I can say from the BBS that a lot of CCS competitors don't like it. If you don't like it either, then what is CCS going to do to prevent that in the future? As long as that's allowed to continue, I think that's more of a damper on Expert entries than a points system would be.

[Elliott]
While Steve Rapp's normal display of  talent is at AMA events, do not forget that he also scored points in CCS regional competition in 2003 (Southeast-Mid-Atlantic-Florida regions for sure), thus any criteria short of an AMA PRO style mandate that barred him from competition would allow him into the event. Yes your "point" system would have taken the wins away, but it would have also struck down Marco Martinez (who regularly raced AMA SuperStock this season) in second place in Expert GTO because he only finished 5th in the Florida points.

- Stu

Thanks Stu, for crediting my idea. I have been drafting my thoughts to send to Kevin, and I will do so tomorrow.

One more time, I believe National Championship should be awarded to regular series participants. If they want to use the ROC as a run-off and one-off winner event, then untie it with the points system. Grid based on entry or qualifying, not on points. The marketing material mentions that ROC is something all CCS racers look forward to all year, and a chance to claim national glory after a hard season of racing. If so, then the regular season should be considered in awarding the national championships. They could just call it the CCS national run-off winner. It does not deserve the title of a"national champion". A winner for sure, a champion, no.

I sent this e-mail to Kevin.  Comments?
--------------------------------------------------
I agree with the proposal to decide the National Champion in each class by awarding points per finishing position in the region and adding them to points earned in the actual Daytona runoff, with the on-track finishing order at the ROC deciding the tie breaker.  I think that it is wrong for racers to win the National Championship if they have not regularly participated in the series throughout the season.

I do see your point when you say that only a few riders would have a shot at the championship.  Therefore, I have a different proposal.  What if you took your best nine finishes in a given class, and averaged them to determine your 50% score that would be averaged to your race finish at Daytona?  This would at least reward those who race the whole season as a CCS racer, and prevent the pros from taking the titles without actually competing in the series throughout the summer.

Regardless of what you decide, something needs to be done to keep "one-shot" racers from taking the title.  If neither of these proposals works for you, then something else needs to be figured out.  The current system is not acceptable.
(Please note that either of these systems would possibly have cost me my fifth place at the ROC in 2002, but I support them anyway.)
"K3" Chris Onwiler
Great Lakes #333 Expert

Quote(Please note that either of these systems would possibly have cost me my fifth place at the ROC in 2002, but I support them anyway.)
"K3" Chris Onwiler
Great Lakes #333 Expert

No, you still would have had 5th in the ROC. What you might not have had is the dubious distinction of 5th in the National Championship. Currently, nothing after 1st gets any recognition anyway, so that doesn't seem like much of a loss.

People who start mid season will be unfairly penalized? If you start mid season, should you really expect to win a championship?

QuotePeople who start mid season will be unfairly penalized? If you start mid season, should you really expect to win a championship?

thats what I emailed Kevin. If some guy starts mid-season, would you expect him to win a regional championship? Maybe we should have a run-off for regional champs too?

Another point, EX's are not going to start mid-season. Only amateurs.

And shouldn't more MEANING be associated with the word "champion"?

Please email Kevin and express your views. I really would like to see this changed or modified so only a top running, regular, season-long racer wins the national championship. It should be the reward for a consistent, fast, and persisting racer, like ALL championship promotes.

I can express Kevin's view for ya right here:

"why make any rule to prevent anyone from entering the races, we want ALL your money, large bills preferable"

here is a better one:

how many riders are in CCS? How many regional champions were there in 2003? How many racers were in top 5 of a class?

And how many of the above racers went to daytona and paid for races?

And how many that didn't come because they didn't think their bike had a chance to win at daytona therefore they didn't have a chance to win the national championship?

And how many didn't come because Daytona is meaningless in half of racer's perspectives?

Now if ROC actually crowns a national champion who is deserving, and honor the 2nd and 3rd place in the championship at all, therefore putting a real meaning and a real sense of accomplishment (or, take the joke out of the ROC), how many more would have come and paid entry fees?

Kevin do the math, if ROC grids is NOT as good as a regional weekend, or ROC grids has been slipping, then why not take a chance and do something different? Maybe that will mean more and bigger green bills in the pocket?

I have been around marketing and business running for a very long time, long before I started riding a motorcycle. What look like a potential loss, can be a long term gain, in more ways than one.

Besides, how many crying, moaning, complaining CCS do you have to see before you review and reassess your business model, or part of it?

Like I said before, I honestly don't think most people who run this industry actually want to grow the industry, or knows how to do it. Its all about protecting the status quo, and as long as the business is afloat, all is well.

QuoteNo, you still would have had 5th in the ROC. What you might not have had is the dubious distinction of 5th in the National Championship. Currently, nothing after 1st gets any recognition anyway, so that doesn't seem like much of a loss.

Well, I did get a piece of wood...  When my racer friends see it they say, "Dag!  I wish I had that!" ;D

Hey Chris,
why did you get wood and I got heavy plaster painted
bronze? ;D
Lil-thorny

Hey Benji,

Nice pics in RRW!!!  Whoo hooo!   You are a superstar!  How fun!  Rapp, Wait, Benji....Yeah!!!!!

Heather

QuoteHey Chris,
why did you get wood and I got heavy plaster painted
bronze? ;D
Lil-thorny

Talent, maybe?  Nah!  I say it was just dumb luck! ;D