From RRW...
one rider quotes another....
( ...) writes, that he has "no answers or suggestions" to remedy the seemingly unfair and inconsistent manner in which the AMA treats privateers. Well, for what it is worth, I have one. Don't support them. Don't ride in their races. Don't help them put on a show. Let the Factory guys race around alone for a few races.
Until the privateers stand as one and get the AMA's attention ($$$$), little if anything will change in the way they view and value your presence and participation. If they truly cared, they would not treat you with such disregard.
If they do not care, they will not care, until you make them care.
and another.....
I have been watching and reading in horror at the BS that AMA Pro Racing bestows on its riders. I could not imagine paying my hard-earned money to race for such a joke of an organization. What to do?
Maybe its time for the riders to just say "enough" and totally withdraw themselves for 2004. Yes, that's not going to be easy but maybe it's worth a try. Instead, go race FUSA or their local club - at least you could still race.
comments or thoughts..........???
soon to be
expert backmarker..
40
What is the ratio between factory and privateers on any race weekend?
They should stand up and fight but would it do any good? As the factorys control the AMA.
I think no changes will ever take place unless a privateer wins a champ..
I read that too thinking that this would be an excellent way to get the AMA's attention. However, pulling it off will be another matter. There are too many out there who will put up with the BS just to race with the likes of Miquel, Bostrum, Mladin, ect.
I don't see it happening.
Dawn
Well, there are far more privateers than factory riders...probably three to one if not four to one.
There just needs to be a change of heart from the manufacturers. NASCAR rules with a proper fist. The AMA certainly does not.
Not a bad idea, but would it work? Would the AMA just tweak the rules so replacement riders could race? Kinda like baseball strike?
I don't understand...
Replacement riders?
Riders enter AMA races just like we enter CCS races. If only nine riders enter a CCS race...that's all you have. Same would go for an AMA race, but the competitors must qualify for their positions. So, if you have 105 riders attempt to qualify for a race, like we had in the early '90's for 600 Supersport, they only take the top 80.
I think the 2003 Daytona Supersport race had like 54 guys...
Right. What I'm saying is that if the top privateers who are currently qualifying sat out, wouldn't the AMA just change the qualifying percentage so they could fill out the field and nullify the effect of the protest? Aren't there going to be plenty of riders more than happy to take their shot at running with the big boys? Of course, that would piss off the factories since those guys would be slower...
Just conjecturing...
I also read the article.
What's gets me is it's seemingly all about NOW (and $$$ of course). They don't look to the future when some of these privateers will more than likely BE the Factory guys. And the Factory guys in AMA will have either moved up (WSB, etc), retired, or otherwise.
The manufacturers should look at privateers as prospects, not "rolling chicanes", as I've seen worded before. I don't understand why they're not treated better. IMO, the ego the factory guys get once earning that ride isn't helping matters.. :-/ The privateers is what MAKES racing IMO. Most the Factory guys were once Privateers...why the continued BS? I really don't believe either that "not supporting them" by not participating in AMA is the right answer. The best answer IMO, whether or not it ever happens, is creating a more level playing field for the current classes, or separating them. Just like Am and Ex. The factory's to support another couple of riders each, to make for a decent grid, and then the privateers could have their own races to vie for that factory ride... Hell I don't know. I'd like to run an AMA race or two when I get to that level, but not if this is the way it's going to be... :'(
I think it would be cool if us little people could find a way to come together and make our collective voice heard, not to make demands, but to even the playing field,
It's obvious that there are many fast racers who wont get a chance, but even some who will get close and even probably do better than some of those who actually get a ride if given a chance...
most of the
ama racers are as fast as those who get the machines to use and talk bad about a lapper as if their skill alone is THE difference...pulease!
i wanna race with miggie and the rest of the guys, but i wouldnt mind going FUSA in order to see some changes made...
just opinion...
You are absolutly correct, Ike. Now go to bed! ;D
Quotesoon to be
expert backmarker..
40
I guarentee that won't be the situation for you Ike! :)
I would doubt that you would see them open up the qualifying times.
Ok, here's a reality question.
You know the good privateers. Which of them has offers to ride for which team?
The route to a factory ride isn't though being a privateer anymore.
Livengood was AMA rookie of the year. No ride. Geoff May got it this year. He'll be running in Macau with the help of Milwaukee's Greg Moon. Hayden's came from dirt track. How many guys have came from Austrailia. Yates is from another time. DuHammel had a good name to work with, as did Kurtis Roberts.
Hy Howard would be my privateer pick. Nice kid from Texas with a lot of dirt track experience. But he can still only get on privateer teams and support packages. Yet, somehow, over the course of several years, Hacking was able to destroy five million dollars worth of equipment for teams before finally getting his act together this year.
I believe that it all has to do with money. Jason Curtis anyone? If you've got money to buy a team around yourself, you can get in.
As Chef mentioned the riders somehow being heard w/o confrontation, I remembered the GP guys informally set up a riders union after Katos death. Is that something that could be workable here? Also, the AMA inside info in RRW mentioned all year how badly the timing and scorekeeping was at the first 6 or 7 events. Practice and race crash situations were seldom acknowledged per Ron Barrick's.." not being made aware." With Clear Channel Entertainment being the money behind CCS right now, is it possible that they're poised to take over?
Quote With Clear Channel Entertainment being the money behind CCS right now, is it possible that they're poised to take over?
That would be a resounding "NO". CCS can't even post race results within a month on their own website. CCS is the Kevin Clar...ahem...I mean red-headed stepchild of Clear Channel.
QuoteWith Clear Channel Entertainment being the money behind CCS right now, is it possible that they're poised to take over?
Doubt that.
The AMA is the official FIM affiliate for the United States. So, they do have a big card in their hand. The manufacturers have a lot of control in the AMA too, so it makes sense for them to remain with the AMA because they can have rules made for them.
I think a lot of people don't understand the reality here. The AMA gets a sactioning fee from the track and or promoter. They are getting this fee to put on a race , sort of like a circus. If the privateers don't show up no one would care because the factory bikes would be there. Do you honestly beleive the fans watching care about anyone but the top few guys? Do you think they care about the guy that is in 25th place other than he gets in the fast guys way? In other sports non pros showcase their talent by playing in high school , college, or open tryouts.Thier families spend tons of many on private coaches and training facilities to get the kid experience, they do websites and go to scouting combines. In cycle racing just going to local events on worn out bikes on worn out tires is not going to help anyone get a factory ride.Plenty of the top racers in the past and today paid for thier "factory rides" to be able to showcase their talent. If they succeed there is a payout if they don't you can't even remeber thier names.
QuoteI think a lot of people don't understand the reality here. The AMA gets a sactioning fee from the track and or promoter. They are getting this fee to put on a race , sort of like a circus. If the privateers don't show up no one would care because the factory bikes would be there. Do you honestly beleive the fans watching care about anyone but the top few guys? Do you think they care about the guy that is in 25th place other than he gets in the fast guys way? In other sports non pros showcase their talent by playing in high school , college, or open tryouts.Thier families spend tons of many on private coaches and training facilities to get the kid experience, they do websites and go to scouting combines. In cycle racing just going to local events on worn out bikes on worn out tires is not going to help anyone get a factory ride.Plenty of the top racers in the past and today paid for thier "factory rides" to be able to showcase their talent. If they succeed there is a payout if they don't you can't even remeber thier names.
The fans would most definetly care if only 6 or 7 guys showed up to race!
QuoteThat would be a resounding "NO". CCS can't even post race results within a month on their own website. CCS is the Kevin Clar...ahem...I mean red-headed stepchild of Clear Channel.
I hope you were trying to say Kevin Elli....!
Kris, I'm gonna have to kick your arse! ;D
QuoteThey are getting this fee to put on a race , sort of like a circus.
Exactly, then they, the track, decides how much money they can make, and how much money they should put into advertising.
As for a good race being six or seven riders...
That I don't agree with. Admittedly, fans a predominately coming to see the riders that have the highest profile: generally the factory riders. I think a six rider race could still probably be a parade that is completely void of the sounds of motorcycle racing. Could sound like individual time trials or something.
I would love to see someone that can't seem to wing a factory ride get a company to do some serious promotion, then see them get more press than the factories riders. Would be good if they were big talkers that could just put down the factory teams and how the rules play into their hands, etc., etc. Would need to be an older guy that doesn't have a chance of getting a ride, obviously, but is still able to run up front. Barney maybe with a big attitude?
Hey Dave - can you give me a call, or let me know where I can call you today, re Daytona? thanks.
-T.
QuoteI hope you were trying to say Kevin Elli....!
Kris, I'm gonna have to kick your arse! ;D
Bring it on YPS! 8)
Readthis. \
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/index.html
Look under; BREAKING NEWS
10/13/2003 Opinion: Time To End Misappropriation Of AMA Non-profit Assets by Dissolving AMA Pro Racing, Firing Everybody, And Starting Over
DOH!!!
Interesting article in rrw , it's nice to have a big soapbox when you are whining about the unfair treatment of your rider. The AMA isn't perfect but it is what it is.80% of the riders probably shouldn't be there anyway. If Rapp was so serious about superbike how come he only rode a couple of events. He isn't a privateer by any stretch of the imagination. Did it hurt Josh hayes , not one bit , he still won the 750 class.Did the rrw article mention all these guys that practice and take up grid spots but never start the race , guess what the grid spot stays empty and guys that would have qualified at the bottom drove a long way for nothing , yes those would be the privateers. Ask Keving hanson he can tell you how that happened to him.
QuoteThe fans would most definetly care if only 6 or 7 guys showed up to race!
And which fans would that be? Have you noticed the attendance at a FUSA race? The fans come to see the factory stars and the big pit pesentations they put on.
I'll agree, Jim. Not much to see at an FUSA event. But then, CCE doesn't advertise it much anyway. Why would you want to spend the money making a nice set it up when all the fliers for the event are sitting at registration (that's what happened at MAM...I think there were 4,000 fliers sitting there)?
But that goes back to the fact that a "race team" shouldn't rely on an "organization" to promote the event. CART got big because the "TEAMS" made the show. They promoted themselves and then the events got big. I always love the CCS/FUSA promos with pictures of riders that have no names. Big deal. We can watch anyone "race" a GSXR6RRZ750RR7ii. Who is it? Eric Wood, "Super" Dave, Dr Rossi? Anything would be good.
People still come to local cage races week in, week out. It could be done. The "teams" no matter how small need to take responsibility for promoting themselves and what they do. Done correctly, someone might come out to watch you.
I gave Kevin Hanson the program outline how to do it. He certainly isn't winning any AMA races, but at least he's getting some press. At his age and at this point in his racing career, that's what most people need. That will help him an his program over time, and you actually get fans coming up over the weekend to drop by and check out the progress.
A real racing series like NASCAR's Winston Cup has interest all through the field. The teams can be up front or flounder near the back. Regardless, they have fan support. Of course, the teams that run up front more than others will probably have more of a fan base, as they should, but the ones in back at least are respected by the fans and the organization. Fair play.
PRO racing is PRO. Webesters defines it, particapating for gain in an activity often engaged in by amatures. In other words, about money. Dave is right about teams needing to promote themselves and act professionally, but there has to be a return. Factories get publicity to help sales even if their race effort is a negative cash flow. What's in it for a privateer?
I really have no idea, but I would think qualifying, or finishing 43 of 43 at a NASCAR event pays the bills. That enables teams to spend money on promotion of themselves and sponsors. It all has to go hand in hand. Promoter, track, sponsors and teams, to bring it all together. Right now, AMA-Proracing squeezing the money for their balance sheet, is choking the sport but hanging on to it's most wealthy clients. It takes $ to make $. The most talented rider in the world is probably skateboarding in an alley somewhere. Tweaking the rulebook isn't going to change that. Money or even the chance of making some, will.
But you have to remmber the AMA does not supply the purse the promoter or sposor of the event does
I learn somthing everyday!
So who would be the promoter? Like Lockhart Phillips? If they put up a purse CCS at least advertises it and they'd be a sponsor. If it's a traditional Superbike event doesn't the main purse come from ticket sales and entry fees? I'm sure it gets all legal, with nobody paying for anything they don't have to, but I'm thick, help me out a little. Who's a promoter?
Ah, you are learning.
A track pays the AMA a sactioning fee for the "right" to be the AMA event. Then the AMA people come in and run it. I think the fee is probably $200k?
The track becomes the promoter in most cases. They have the track and they figure how much they can make. There are minimum purses. Some purses blow... Some are better.
Lockhart-Philips is probably paying the AMA a fee to be the title sponsor for that particular class. Still, the track is paying, etc.
So, yeah, the gate and whatever is paying the purse, as meger as it is. Remember Laguna...Mladin got $4000 for his AMA Superbike win...Denning took home $8000 in Yamaha cash for the next weekend at Blackhawk.
So AMA Proracing takes a bucket full, the track promotes the event to make what they can out of spectators and entry fees, and the purses are gas money. Why would guys like Barney bother with AMA unless there is nowhere close to make a buck that weekend. And why would anybody put money in a team that has no chance of breaking even? $4,000 to win a "premier"race is just pathetic. $4,000 to win makes it an amature event since there should be the possibility of profit to be a professional.
Seems like some cash and good plan could make FUSA the premier event. Pay REAL money at a track semi-close to AMA events and would privateers go to AMA or FUSA. Would you go to Road Atlanta instead of the 200 if it meant 5K in your pocket for 3rd instead of $500 for 10th behind the factories? I really don't know, but I believe the compettition would get tighter and more well financed which is more fun to watch. Then, I think Clear channel has TV contacts for the extra purse money. All 10K or so of it! It might take a year to catch on but FIM would have to take notice, heck, Nascar didn't need anybodys approval, screw FIM too!
Well, what do you think Suzuki pays Mladin?
I think that he's trying to negotiate a new potential helmet deal. His cost would be $130k to have him wear your helmet. That's where the money for the professional is at...contracts, bonuses, etc.
Barney? Right, how can he make a real living.
FUSA? They had a real neat thing going in 2000 when SFX bought out CCS from Roger and then CCE got SFX. Went down from there for various reasons.
The 200 pays pretty good money, I believe. The world wide press coverage is really huge too. And that's where the contracts and opportunities come from.
Examples of teams that had money, but no money was to be made...
Annandale. No Limits.
Attack, but I'm not sure who's footing the bill.
Quarterley was able to do it for a long time because he didn't have the overhead. He did most of the work himself, then got his program big enough that eventually, everyone wanted to pay to be a part of his program.
Starting to make more sense?
QuoteAnd which fans would that be? Have you noticed the attendance at a FUSA race? The fans come to see the factory stars and the big pit pesentations they put on.
I'll say it again. If 6 or 7 riders showed up to race, the sport would be over as far as major coverage is concerned. It would be like a pro sports team playing the same opponent every game. At least with NAPCAR you have 30 or so drivers, each with a chance to win. The rules make it that way. Motorcycle racing rules don't allow for anyone but the factory riders to have a chance. NASCAR didn't get where is is today by allowing the same 5 guys to dominate every week. Just my opinion. ;)
QuoteAt least with NAPCAR you have 30 or so drivers, each with a chance to win. The rules make it that way
I wouldn't say that each has a chance to win, but it is reasonable to think that a good car at that level isn't far off for a team. Still, set up, driver, do have to be taken into account.
Chad Little raced Winston Cup for a while. Decent car, but he didn't have what it takes. He wasn't in my book for being close.
However, I think I might put Barney up against some of the guys with an equal bike, and I think that he'd have a really good chance to be up front.
Would six bikes be a good race?
Ok, I'll revisit this one.
You say no. Jim says yes. It "could" be a good race. I've seen races between two guys that were worth watching. But with only six riders, the opportunity to have a good race diminishes, right?
I guess that's the trick in our minds. Winston Cup has thirty some cars on the track. Makes for a good race.
Parades? Well, that just isn't fun to watch. The Daytona 200 can sometimes be painful to watch. The coverage, for one, is so one sided (guess that might relate to who's paying the bills: Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Honda...) to the factory guys.
Guess the most recent example of world class motorcycle racing would be in the 500 class when the grids got so small. Guys like Wait were out there "riding", but they had no real chance of winning or anything. Just a parade. Not fun to watch?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$This is what it'sall about. F*ck talent, f*ck everything else. No money towards the team, no ride. Simple as that. Just like CCS number one plates. If you have the money you can buy one. if not forget it.
;D I think we're up too late.... ::)
QuoteI'll say it again. If 6 or 7 riders showed up to race, the sport would be over as far as major coverage is concerned. It would be like a pro sports team playing the same opponent every game. At least with NAPCAR you have 30 or so drivers, each with a chance to win. The rules make it that way. Motorcycle racing rules don't allow for anyone but the factory riders to have a chance. NASCAR didn't get where is is today by allowing the same 5 guys to dominate every week. Just my opinion. ;)
The rules have nothing to do with it , should the NBA mandate that 7' guys play with one hand tied behind their back to help a short guy? If you can't afford to run at the front don't blame AMA Pro rules , thats why CCS,WERA and the rest of the local groups exsist.You can chase the OEM contingency money and make over $70k a year.Should NASCAR change the rules so anyone can compete in the family sedan? AMA Pro Racing is what it is , if a person desires to be a front runner it is possible by spending the right amount of money , but you still have to have the rider talent. I can count on one hand the number of riders from this area that were able to run in the top ten in a Pro event. Quit deluding yourself that if you had all the money you could compete in a AMA Pro race. Be happy where you are now and enjoy it while you can. (I am not trying to single you out as an individual )
Ok, now I'm thinking maybe the factory format needs adjustment. Like Yamaha money, only skip the factory riders altogether. If they took Madlins salary and the cost of the team and their whole program, divided that by however many races their are and divided it up for the top 15 Suzukis, Honda, Kawasaki doing the same. Then the better man win and nodody would starve in an attempt. Sure sombody would have a trick gizmo and somebody would gripe, but it would even things up a bit and reward the fastest team. R&D would still continue only with more riders to choose from. Purses would be worth trying to get. Ain't gonna happen, but it's a thought.
QuoteThe rules have nothing to do with it , should the NBA mandate that 7' guys play with one hand tied behind their back to help a short guy? If you can't afford to run at the front don't blame AMA Pro rules , thats why CCS,WERA and the rest of the local groups exsist.You can chase the OEM contingency money and make over $70k a year.Should NASCAR change the rules so anyone can compete in the family sedan? AMA Pro Racing is what it is , if a person desires to be a front runner it is possible by spending the right amount of money , but you still have to have the rider talent. I can count on one hand the number of riders from this area that were able to run in the top ten in a Pro event. Quit deluding yourself that if you had all the money you could compete in a AMA Pro race. Be happy where you are now and enjoy it while you can. (I am not trying to single you out as an individual )
You have soooo misread my post. First of all, sport teams pick from the best talent available. Period. It has nothing to do with having special one off equipment like the factory riders. Why do you think the privateers can't win? It's because, no matter how much money they have, they can't have what the factory teams get. Deluding myself? I said nothing about buying a win.??? A privateer finishing in the top ten of an AMA race doesn't allways finish on the lead lap. I wouldn't call that being competitive. ::) Look at World Supersport last year. There were 10 to 15 bikes battling out for most of the race. (I don't know how it was this year cause NASCAR TV... er.... I mean SPEED didn't cover many Supersport events >:() NASCAR works really hard to make the teams even. It shows in the number of drivers in a position to win on the last few laps. What's wrong with that? What i'm saying, is it sucks to have to pick from 5 riders to root for. It doesn't have to be that way. Flame on. ;D
Where I see the problem with AMA rules is in the things that you can't buy IF you had the money.
Forks and special swingarms in addition to FI systems. Those are things that could make a difference to a team.
Jim, I don't think anyone is necessarily saying that they could be competitive with the right parts, but I think it's relatively clear that there is such a technical difference between the factory and privateer teams. It isn't one race, and I think that kind of erodes it. Makes it a race for a certain number of the top positions, then a race for certain positions below. If the rules would preclude the factory teams, the teams that presumably have nearly an unlimited bugdet (look how many bikes Yosh bought Hacking...I think Doan told me like $3mil worth of smashed bikes), from using things that are not obtainable. Would it change the general result? I don't think so either. Would it level the playing field in that if Ben Bostom had an "off" day, some of the private teams and their riders would definitely be bigger players.
Does that make sense to you?
I can make a further case beyond that too. But, I'll have to do it later.
I am not trying to flame anyone just stating what i have seen over the years. Any rider that is interested in running up front in an AMA 600 race can buy that equipment , just bring me a new 600 and $20000 and you can have the same as the factory 600's. Also be prepared to put new tires on the bike every time it hits the track so another $20,000 or so , and lets not forget the $20 a gallon fuel , and the transport and mechanics cost. It is not impossible to run in the top 10 in 600 you just have to have about $150,000 and the skill to put the bike there.
And thus my rational for a real purse.
Jim, I'll agree with you there. It can be done. But few teams can do that: the purse money is a joke in Supersport (but at least there is one now...there wasn't one at all when I was all hot and heavy doing it), and the AMA promotes itself kind of poorly...better now, but still.
Tires, yeah, that's a given. No question. Would the racing be better if Supersport were actually more restricted the way it should be? Maybe the question would be better stated as, would the racing be better if the quality of the equipment was more equal? Indeed, the fastest guys would probably still be up front, but we can figure that some guys that run just outside of the top ten might run closer to the front, or, at least, be players in the final result. Then, no one would doubt that the top guys are there because of skill rather than machinery. I'll go back to NASCAR Winston Cup...those cars are capable of over 245MPH, however, they are restricted down. So, although some may not like oval track car racing, one has to admit that the guys that are capable of running up front week in week out are definitely better drivers, better set ups, better organization, and better luck.
I think originally, this thread was pointed toward Superbike, which should be a more open, it's a builder's class obviously, but some things still apply.
What do you think, Jim?
I thought you might go to Daytona. Too much work at the shop I hope? Or more football? We just got done with PeeWee football. Not supposed to keep score...but I think we all did (Our team didn't do so well...LOL!).
Hey Chef, I let my AMA membership expire after the R.E. mess. I do not like the way they treat privateers either, but it seems like it's probably just a seniority thing. Particilarly in the article I believe you're looking back on, the VIR rehash isn't it? Only a few pros like Bucky and Hacking were taken out to inspect the course on foot, yes?
I guess if we made the AMA grid, the shine would wear off the apple pretty quick. Money runs thin in a hurry. Hell, even the Pros have been complaining about how badly RA was nicking them on fees!!? As per the # of racers on the grid, that's a different story.
It was beautiful to see Bostrom, Roberts, and Duhamel buzzing Mladin through Canada Corners last June. However, we also came to see Roger Hendricks, Lucky Dog Racing from Ham Lake MN. I know, not everybody gets a thrill from seeing privateers, but about a dozen of us get a buzz from seeing Lucky Dog.(12 x$100 weekend passes=$1200!!) How much more pathetic would the purses be if entry was restricted to "Pros"?
There are so many angles, opinions, and possible solutions to this situation it's incredible. Does a rider's Union stand a chance in hell of sorting this out?
Roger beat Yates in the rain at Road America a couple of years ago. I think Roger kicked at him as he went around him at the carousel...LOL.
Riders union only has power if ALL the riders unite. At the Pomona AMA races, we pretty much shut it down. There was only one privateer guy that went on the track. It didn't make for a very good event, regardless.
In some ways, the fans have more power. If THEY voiced there disbelief with the lack of rules, the apparent unfairness of rules, etc. then things might get changed.
QuoteI do not like the way they treat privateers either, but it seems like it's probably just a seniority thing.
I don't understand what you mean there. If you mean that the factory guys have been there racing in the AMA longer than the privateers, it's not the case. Your superbike guys are a pretty experienced lot. They are all the big fish from all the little ponds.