I know we probably all thought about it, and was told that it cost too much, or it takes too long, no time to run qualifying sessions, etc.
But I think grid by entry date system is not only unfair in some cases (most of us can't afford to pay 1000's of dollars at the begining of year, or don't know about our schedule to ensure a front row start) it is also dangerous sometimes, when the fast guys grided on the last row try to make it to the front pass 30+ guys in a 5 lap sprint.
I know it is not very pratical to grid by qualifying, with the # of classes that we have.
But with electronic scoring (whenever or if CCS ever adapts it) could we use the morning practice sessions as qualifying sessions and grid all races entered by the best laptime?
What do you guys think?
From my personal experience, I have yet to finish top 5, even though I turn laptimes close to the top 5. Because I have only been able to enter 2 weeks in advance at the earlist, I have to fight through over 20 people to finish near top 10. Some times it is frustrating, sometimes it is dangerous, sometimes it is just not worth going to races. (skipping next VIR because I don't want to drive 8 hours to start 55th on the grid) but I won't know if I am free til next week.
What do you guys/girls think? Timed practice/qualifying? Loudon does it for practice groups. What if we do it for grids?
I'm sure that gridding by pre-registration is the most time economical. But I do agree with all your points. I'm sure most do.
While I do not have the experience, nor administrative intellect to offer a solution. I am sure that if one could be found - one that didn't create more headaches than is currently in place, CCS would implement it. I guess that pretty much makes my response totally useless. I don't have a constructive solution.
Trying to please *everyone* will never come about. I do think that some form of Lap Time Gridding should be in place, even if it reverted to placed finish last time at that particular track. If you are fast, you deserve to be up front. If you're a slug, then the back is appropriate. I think that trying to argue any other logic is questionable.
The key would be implementation into the program, where the actual work involved in gathering the data, and then structuring the grid, would not create more work and expenditure of time for the organizers.
Safe trips, good point.
Dave
Well while we are on the subject of being fed up I've got one also. What the hell is wrong with you people running GTO AM!? I have yet to get over 8 laps out of a 30 minute race because idiots think this is a goddamn sprint race. Jesus guys why make a bone head pass so early in a race when you will have plenty of time? Instead you crash out hard and they call the ENTIRE race for everyone. Sit back keep showing the guy a wheel and eventually he will tire out or you will get by him within a lap. Blah blah I'm sorry it is just so ridiculous.
QuoteWell while we are on the subject of being fed up I've got one also. What the hell is wrong with you people running GTO AM!? I have yet to get over 8 laps out of a 30 minute race because idiots think this is a goddamn sprint race. Jesus guys why make a bone head pass so early in a race when you will have plenty of time? Instead you crash out hard and they call the ENTIRE race for everyone. Sit back keep showing the guy a wheel and eventually he will tire out or you will get by him within a lap. Blah blah I'm sorry it is just so ridiculous.
agreed. i was doing just that, playing with the slower rider in front of me, waiting for a clean pass. someone further up in the pack crashed and was laid out too close to the track and they called the entire race...
Agreed that pre-entry date is tough.
How about girdding by Performance index? Or a combined formula with Performance index and season points?
The problem with the qualifying idea, imo, is it turns practice into a race. What happens when the same guy who red flags a GTO 5 laps in goes bonzai in practice and red flags the entire practice session? Particularly with a green, morning track?
I, too, will skip a race or 2 I would want to go to just because those back row starts on tight tracks make it damn near impossible to get a decent result.
QuoteHow about girdding by Performance index? Or a combined formula with Performance index and season points?
The problem with the qualifying idea, imo, is it turns practice into a race. What happens when the same guy who red flags a GTO 5 laps in goes bonzai in practice and red flags the entire practice session? Particularly with a green, morning track?
Griding based on performance index is an idea. Although it probably have to be an lifetime performance index. but the current performance index, I can finish 10 from 50th, and still have a lower index than the guy who starts 5th and finish 4th.
Maybe we should revert to a personal best laptime system. If everyone uses a transponder, we would be able to log the best time per person per track and grid based on the laptime. That would be pretty fair, and wouldn't turn practice into a race (I see that now, totally bad idea :)
GRID BY POINTS IN CLASS
QuoteGRID BY POINTS IN CLASS
Actually thats a nice idea, and good for CCS because it encourage people to enter more races to get better grid postions.
Maybe grid by points for Pre-entry, so they have time to figure it out, and grid by entry order post-entry (if it is a burden to figure out who have more points). How about that? I would still want to be able to get a good spot if I sign up raceday morning, but at least 2 weeks is a better solutions than $4000 in Feb.
I still would like the timing idea better, but the points system would be easier to implement.
The software/ability to grid by cumulative class points certainly exists--look no further than WERA.
The advantages are many, not the least of which is that those who are competing for a championship are gridded at the front and can compete with one another. Those who are chasing championships wouldn't have to run up their credit card just to have a shot at running at the front. Ultimately this rewards the racers who are following the "Series" part of Championship Cup Series. Would there still be some local guns who only run the one track that have to work from the back to the front? Sure, but that will never change. Will there be some slower riders who run a lot of races and accumulate enough points to be near the front? Sure, but slower riders at the front due to pre-reg. is already an issue so this is a moot point.
My cynical view is that the current pre-register/grid format is all about the $$$$$ CCS collects a significant portion of the money up front this way as opposed to waiting to the date of the event. How many people would pre-reg. if it didn't affect their starting position ? Honestly, I'd like to be wrong. But your money in CCS's account does a lot more for CCS than your money in your account.
skydiver16 - "My cynical view is that the current pre-register/grid format is all about the $$$$$ CCS collects a significant portion of the money up front this way as opposed to waiting to the date of the event. How many people would pre-reg. if it didn't affect their starting position ?"
Personally I don't think it is all about the $$$$, athough I am sure it is one of the bonus of doing it that way. Pre-registering is a way to get an idea of how many people will be racing for a particular event, and a way to stream line things. We have plenty of people who wait to register the day of the event and that creates long lines and many more staff that is needed to get everyone registered before practices start. (OK disorganization and kaos is a pet peeve of mine :-/).
We pre-register at least two weeks before the event that we will be going to and it seems to be working good in our region. Plus... It makes my life a lot less stressful.
Dawn :)
I would like to here Kevin Elliots thoughts on this subject.
I agree with ALAN and R6... for Pre-entry grid by points, then for post entry grid by entry order.. behind the pre-entryers.
Pre-entryers, even if you are like 50th in points, you will still be in front of post-entryers, even if they are above you in the rankings.
yea.. how about a poll on this subject?
QuoteWe pre-register at least two weeks before the event that we will be going to and it seems to be working good in our region. Plus... It makes my life a lot less stressful.
Dawn :)
So do I, but the last 3 races, I registered 2 weeks ahead of time, on Wed/Thur.
My best grid out of whole 3 weekend is 6A. Which is the first row of second wave. I managed to finish almost all sprint races in the top 15, whith one 7th.
I know if I start in the first 3 rows, I would have a shot at the podium. But right now, I can get 10th if everything goes well. (I am not that fast, just faster than average)
I am top 10 in all 3 classes I compete in. I would gladly registered 2 weeks in advance if I can start on the 3rd row. Then I would finish better and move up even more.
ROC is grided by points, and I think the regionals should be too. And what is the incentive for people still pre-enter? If you post enter, you still end up gridding by order of entry. so I will still send my money in before 2 weeks so I can have my points matter.
Start a poll someone? what choices? just a simple yes or no?
Points would certainly be nice. A few years ago I registered a month and a half beforehand for a summit race and was way back in the 2nd wave for every race. And this was the lightweight class! I was chasing points too so it really sucked. The next year I registered for all the summit races either before or right after daytona. It was the only way to guarantee a front row position. And even then I wasn't on the pole! I think I was even on the second row a few times if you can believe that.
The way that CCS grids by time of entry is exactly the reason I don't race the series much. When I do plan to attend a CCS event (see you guys at Road America in August :) ) I ussualy pre-reg. way in advance (registered in March for August Road America) just to make sure I don't get stuck at the back of the grid. I also pre-reg. so I don't have to stand in line the morning of the race and miss practice.
With WERA I can pre-reg the entire season and they charge my credit card aprox. 2 weeks in advance of each event.
The CCS gridding policy makes absolutely no sense from a racers standpoint and I tend to agree with those who feel it's dangerous.
The grids should be posted by Class points.
One nice thing about it though, I don't have to run the series and can show up and ussually be grid within the first three rows 8)
haha Wera persuasion we have here... so u are one of the guys who's taken up the front of the grid eh? >:(
;D yes I would love it to change. I love the CCS schedule tracks, dates and the region, but PLEASE change the way it grids please please pretty please
Why don't u change your avitar here? since I made u the nice ones 8)
QuoteWhy don't u change your avitar here? since I made u the nice ones 8)
Haven't posted the avitar of the web to be able to create a link yet :)
:)
I love the thought of having a qualifying lap or two, for grid position. But right now you can pre-register for a race weeks or even months in advance if you are chasing a championship, and if you find out a day ahead of time that you can't go, well cancel your pre-registration...its that easy. you get your money back and if you would have raced you would have been gridded towards the front. I know it is a hassle to let CCS hang on to your money, but thats a sacrifice you might have to make to win. And if you are going to be chasing a championship I suggest you not miss any races!!! Bottom line...if you are not in contention for points or not going to race every race to win a championship, don't force your passes...why? all for a piece of wood? if you are having trouble getting around someone its probably because they have about the same riding ability as you. Is finishing 10th instead of 11th going to be a great boost to your ego or what?
some of us maybe going through a hard time financially, or just barely keeping up with racing, and without any sponsors, how many of you can plung down a couple thousand just to ensure a good position. Sure it can be done, sure you have options, but is it the best system?
We want fairness in competition, that's why we have rules to make classes and judge machinery. It would seem somewhat unfair that the financially better off/sponsored races are garanteed a better chance of winning. Its not even about championship, its about me spending $500 a weekend without any good shot of wining on THAT day.
If griding by points is an outlandish idea, why does the ROC does it? why don't we grid by entry at ROC? We know its going to be Oct and we know the prices, we can enter in Feb for the ROC right?
If I don't want to win, I would stick to track days, whats the the diff. between 10th and 11th? 10th is in front of 11th. If I just wanna be out there on the track, or just call myself a racer, I would race my GS500, finish top3 every time, and do track days on my bigger bikes.
I know the thread subject says "elec. scoring and qualifying" but the thread seems to be based more on the subject of how grids are decided at a CCS event.
Financial Aid,
I didn't think I saw anyone bringing up the fact that they are making bonehead moves to get to the front because of a grid spot in the back. So take it easy on us please :)
There are other benefits to pre-registration and I think the people who currently pre-register understand that and would continue to pre-register if there was a change in the grid policy (I'm one of them).
I know sometimes threads take a turn in direction but I think this one is for airing your opinion about the current grid policy and what changes you would like to see, if any.
Sounds like to me you're fine with the way things are and that's cool. Personally I feel the grids should be assigned by points. Riders registering with no points could be assigned a grid position behind riders with points based on time of entry.
I'm kinda talking out of line here though because I haven't been to very many CCS events. I was able to work a few into the 2000 and 2001 schedule but I'm only able to make one this year (I mainly run the "other" series :-X), Road America. Can't wait! Anyways, my point is I'm really not sure how much of a problem it is because of limited exposure.
Is the RACE not supposed to be on the track to see who wins? Rather than see who can send in money first...everyone that said by points is 100% right sence we do not have the time to qualify. It's not fair for you to finish in the top 5 at 4 races and you be on grid 30 at the 5th race just because you didn't have the money to send in 2 months ahead of time...come on now CCS read this and listen..and this is comming from a new racer that would love to start up front but i know i'm not as fast as alot of you and you should be in front of me for safety reasons and when i get better than you i will have the points to prove it and start where i should...just my $.02
As a newbie racer, I am in agreement with those who say that gridding should be based on points. I have no business being gridded near the front; my starts suck and I'm an obstacle. The problem is that I race at tracks which are very, very crowded, so if I don't pre-enter there's a good chance I won't get to race at all.
I can grid myself at the back of the pack for safety reasons, but there's no way to give the grid position I was assigned to someone who deserves it based on their skill, so that's not a good answer.
So, I would like CCS to change grid assignments based on points. For first race of season grid based on points from the prior season. That rewards the experienced racers.
I don't know if the SW region is different but I usually get a 3rd or 4th row position from signing up on Sat morning first thing. From those positions I am usually in the top 5 before we get out of the first turn. I think if I started at the back of the grid I would still get a respectable place coming out of turn 1. I'm sure CCS does it the way they do it because it would be very difficult to check everyone's points on Saturday morning before the grids are posted and furthermore how do you grid based on points when regions overlap? I agree there could be a better way to do it but I doubt there's a simpler way and none of them will be fair to everyone.
Litespeed may I be the first to say, YOU SUCK! I sign up a month or more in advance and I"m STILL in the 2nd wave. Anyway just kidding, well maybe. Seems that grids for Summit Point are closed even before Saturday morning, lights included.
QuoteGRID BY POINTS IN CLASS
Actually, this would nix two birds with one stone. CCS would be forced to keep better/efficient records on points in a timely manner and we could just pay as we go without worry. You don't think they'd put Michael Schumacher in a 2nd wave because he paid late???
Gridding by points in class seems to be fair to me, otherwise what good are those points until the end of the season. I also agree with the gentleman on all the red flags on GTO races, it kinda sucks getting 6 or 8 laps cuz some guy wants to be matt maladin, i race GTO some I can get more seat time, practice, learn to pick the best places to pass, and not have to be in a hurry like in a sprint race. ;D
Oh my! WERA is here!
Personally, I am running CCS now, after running WERA for the first few races of the seaon. One of the main reasons for my switch is exactly the points/gridding system. I think gridding by points sucks. It means that the rich guys that can afford to show up at every race can have a few mediocre finishes early on and pretty much assure themselves a spot up front for the rest of the season.
It's a vicious cycle. You get gridded up front in the first race of the season and run just average laps, but still finish close to the front. So now you still get gridded up front, and the cycle repeats.
I got tired of showing up to WERA races, coming from the 2nd or 3rd wave to 17th and still being gridded in the 2nd or 3rd wave again next time out.
I think gridding by points vs. order of entry is about a wash in terms of guys with bucks being able to get better grid spots. The one advantage of gridding by order of entry is that it DOES allow for somebody to come along after the start of the season and still do well, if their riding ability is up to it. For example, somebody who has been running some other series decides to run CCS. The enter a month ahead of time for a race in August, and they can still get a decent grid spot. If they're fast enough, they have a legitimate shot at actually winning the race. This is in contrast to the WERA way (gridding by points) which means that, no matter how fast you are (unless you're somebody like Giovanni Rojas), if you come to WERA after the first couple of races of the season, you're not going to have a shot a winning anything, period. At least for your first couple of weekends or more, out.
- Stu
Having said all that, I think having qualifying is the only fair way to really set grids. Of course, I proposed this in the WERA BBS a while back and was flamed so hard my monitor started smoking. Mostly by the guys who would lose out on their cherry grid spots, of course. Anyway...
I think qualifying could be a successful way to do it, if it was done like this:
1) Assuming CCS institutes electronic scoring for next year.
2) Every rider has to have a transponder for each different bike they are going to run.
3) Every lap of every practice session all weekend is timed and scored in the CCS computer.
4) Grids are set by the best lap of practice, period. If Saturday was dry and Sunday is wet, then the guys who just show up on Sunday are going to get gridded behind everybody that practiced on Saturday. That's the breaks.
If all of practice counts towards qualifying, then I think that will alleviate the concerns about people going out and treating a practice session like a race. Yes, if there was some limited qualifying session, like only one session on Sunday morning, or something like that, then I would be concerned about a bunch of people all going out then and causing problems.
Actually, now that I think about it, if people have some incentive to really try to run a race pace in practice, that might have some good effects. People who are going to crash themselves out can do it in practice instead of the race itself. :)
There are some potential issues with timed qualifying that would probably need to be addressed.
1) CCS would probably need to do something to prevent cheating. Otherwise, I can imagine guys swapping transponders for a session so that a faster guy can help his slower buddy get a decent grid spot. Perhaps just monitoring the qualifying, spot checks at Pit In, and huge penalties for cheating would be sufficient to cover this.
For example, Joe Rocket takes Jim Turtle's transponder out for him. Suddenly, the qualifying computer show's Jim's qualifying times drop from 1:40 to 1:25. That might cue somebody to be looking for Jim to come in off the track and, when he is observed to not be out there ('cause Joe Rocket's bike has his transponder) he is busted. Or if Jim is out on his bike, too, a grid marshall checks his transponder when he comes in and makes sure it's the one assigned to that particular bike.
2) Some people will fail to get in a timed lap for whatever reason. Those people will get gridded at the back, by order of entry.
3) Getting transponder assignments matched up to bikes, matched up to riders could be a significant admin burden to accomplish at the track - especially if it has to be done between the time you go through Registration or Tech and the time you roll out for your first practice session. To address this, CCS could say this: If you want to have timed qualifying, you have to buy a transponder for each of your bikes and register it with us ahead of time. Otherwise, you'll be provided with a transponder at the track, to facilitate scoring, but you won't get timed for qualifying. In that case, you will gridded behind all the timed qualifiers, by order of entry.
On the other hand, there's no reason the timing/scoring equipment couldn't store the lap times for a given transponder, even before it has been matched up in the computer to a particular rider/bike. It would just make it hard to watch for cheating during practice.
4) It would be very difficult to catch people if they did something like, for example, put their 600 transponder on their 750 and went out to better their 600 race qualifying time. Or put slicks on their 600 to set a qualifying time for a Supersport race.
But, I'm not too worried about those kinds of things. Running slicks or a bigger bike or something like that is not going to help most people by very much. At most, a couple of seconds at most tracks. Most people are much more limited by their skill than their bike. And since this is only for grid positions, I'm not too worried if it's not accurate to a 1/1000th of a second. I just want to know that, if I'm one of the 4 fastest guys in my race, I'm going to be gridded on the front row, or 2nd row at the worst.
Bottom line: I think the pros of timed qualifying vastly outweigh any of the cons.
- Stu
Another way to fight cheating:
People have to own their transponders AND they have to pre-enter, to be allowed to qualify. Everybody else is gridded at the back by order of entry.
Each weekend, all the pre-entries with transponders get pre-printed labels from CCS when they register. Each label has the rider name, bike # and bike class (Lightweight, MW, HW, etc.) printed on it. The rider must put the right labels on each transponder before going through Tech, where they are confirmed to be on correctly.
Then, somebody at Pit In could randomly spot check people just by looking at their transponder's label, to make sure it's matched up with the right rider and bike.
Just an idea, put out there for constructive criticism....
- Stu
Oh my god, the rule book just doubled in size. ;D
I'm all for it....the problem (I imagine) is the cost.
I like your idea of each rider buying their own transponder. That way it cut's down on the cost to CCS. (They wouldn't need to raise our fees any...hopefully)
It would also be nice to have a record of my laptimes for the whole weekend. (Sometimes the wife is too busy keeping the rugrats outta everyones way to keep time for me)
I'd like to hear CCS chime in on this one and see what objections they have. I wouldn't think it would be that much more labor intensive. They might need to buy some software in order to record and store everyones time.
CCS.....whaaddaya think?
PETE!!... We gonna see you @ VIR this weekend?
- BTW, this is Mike, the 'new guy' on the RS250.
Hey Dude....I'll be there Saturday, but not Sunday. The wife thinks a family vacation at the Outer Banks is more important. (the nerve...eh?)
QuoteOh my! WERA is here!
Personally, I am running CCS now, after running WERA for the first few races of the seaon. One of the main reasons for my switch is exactly the points/gridding system. I think gridding by points sucks. It means that the rich guys that can afford to show up at every race can have a few mediocre finishes early on and pretty much assure themselves a spot up front for the rest of the season.
What? Who's rich? is there a racer out there who is rich? ;D Stuart, come on man, get real, do you really think this way?
It's a vicious cycle. You get gridded up front in the first race of the season and run just average laps, but still finish close to the front. So now you still get gridded up front, and the cycle repeats.
FWIW they grid the first race of the season by the previous year's points. Riders without points from the previous year are grid by time of entry.
I got tired of showing up to WERA races, coming from the 2nd or 3rd wave to 17th and still being gridded in the 2nd or 3rd wave again next time out.
If there were people grid ahead of you that had less points (although I doubt this was the case) you should have said something to have the grid corrected.
I think gridding by points vs. order of entry is about a wash in terms of guys with bucks being able to get better grid spots. The one advantage of gridding by order of entry is that it DOES allow for somebody to come along after the start of the season and still do well, if their riding ability is up to it. For example, somebody who has been running some other series decides to run CCS. The enter a month ahead of time for a race in August, and they can still get a decent grid spot. If they're fast enough, they have a legitimate shot at actually winning the race. This is in contrast to the WERA way (gridding by points) which means that, no matter how fast you are (unless you're somebody like Giovanni Rojas), if you come to WERA after the first couple of races of the season, you're not going to have a shot a winning anything, period. At least for your first couple of weekends or more, out.
You have a very interesting line of thinking, that I'm just not sure I can buy into.
- Stu
I'll be there, solo. Did not see you at Summit.
Ah yea... that's right, we got 2 Petes.
sportbikepete... yea I was there, I kept meaning to come over, but never got around to it. + with the rain, it sucked... almost didn't show up on Sun, but did for only 1 race.. was a quick in and out.
I will come meet you this weekend, for real.
PMoravek... yea I know what you mean. We're getting married Labor day weekend... means I'm gonna miss a few race weekends... the fiancee thinks getting married is more important. (the nerve...eh?)
Yeah the rain really took up all my "say hello" time. I loved it though, was my first time in the rain and I was flying until my second race Sunday where the track had a dry line and my rain tires did not appreciate that much. And as of right now the forecast is for rain Saturday down there so me thinks the rains are staying on for the ride down. I'm going to try to pit near tech since I'll be solo and will not have an extra set of hands.
QuoteYeah the rain really took up all my "say hello" time. I loved it though, was my first time in the rain and I was flying until my second race Sunday where the track had a dry line and my rain tires did not appreciate that much. And as of right now the forecast is for rain Saturday down there so me thinks the rains are staying on for the ride down. I'm going to try to pit near tech since I'll be solo and will not have an extra set of hands.
Ah, excuse me, not to be rude or anything but can you guys take your chat to a chat room or e-mail each other directly. This is a thread about grid assignment policy.
Thanks ;D
Well our conversation seems to be going farther than the original post. :P
QuoteWell our conversation seems to be going farther than the original post. :P
I hear ya bratha! Sure would be nice to hear CCS's thoughts around this subject. I have a feeling they are sitting back checking things out before they dive in. If so, come on in, the water is warm! ;D
Well I'll be the bad guy and just say i'm fine with how it is right now. Changes being brought up sound like more money and more work for us.
I'll pipe up and say that we can expect to have electronic scoring and timing next year in CCS. Riders will either buy or rent a transponder. Maybe there will be a surcharge on one's first entry.
Ultimately, qualifying is the safest and fairest way of gridding.
As for practice...
Well, you can't fix something unless you know what's broke.
So, practice does need to be used to explore a proper set up. If you never do your race speed during practice, you don't know how the bike will work. It's a double edged sword. Would you like to have a guy figure out that he can't brake at the three marker when chasing you during a race, or when he's out in practice trying to get his set up correct. Maybe on a clear track where he won't wad up the rest of the traffic.
However, the trick is that with all the classes, practice time seems to be diminished. It would be hard to get a clear lap in. AMA Superbike qualifying sessions are long. An hour?
.. so yea.. back to the conv...
sportbikepete, yea, rain was interesting, kinda fun. It was my first time on the track AND first time in the rain AND I didn't have rain tires :o . Although, I did come in 5th in both my 'wet' races.
I'll be near tech shak also this weekend, red Dodge Ram, red 'damaged' exup from RRR last weekend.
Yea, ... haven't heard from CCS lately on any of these matters.(grids/scoring/points update) They must be hiding ;)
stu, you are as moronic here as you are over at the WERA BBS. hows about twisting the throttle hand more, stay up front, and be gridded according to your finishes. instead of licking one stamp at the beginning of the season.
look at the poll results, the majority want points to dictate the grid. come on CCS do what your CUSTOMERS {that's right, we are customers and not cattle} WANT!!!!
There are valid reasons for both systems.
Qualifiying would be best, but then you would lose practice time because of qualifying, plus if one of you fast guys had a problem in qualifying, you would still be at the back. Catch-22.
Not everyone is there for the points battle, but they do measure their sucess by wins and finishes, so why is it more fair to penalize them (as some one said, it's hard to win from the second or third wave) than the 15-20 riders who would always start up front because of the points? This is sportsman racing, everyone should have a chance to win, and everyone should have a chance to start up front sometime. While the chance to win is still there starting further back, the chance to start up front only goes to a select few under the points method.
Then look at the logistics of what you few are asking for. 41 classes, gridded by points, average of 677 entries per event (2002 average, some regional events 910-990), then add two or three regions together (which happens 10-12 times a year) research which region that rider has most points in so you can grid him correctly (he deserves that if that is how you are doing it) means at least 2 extra hours per day to generate grids. Not feasible at this time unless we cut classes. (And then which classes would we cut? Like I said, not feasible at this time.) We could make it pre-entry by points , this would give us time to do the work in the office, but then you would have to send us your entry at least two weeks before every event, something that some of you object to already, so that is no solution. (Now you see why the 1600 entries at the Race of Champions is the only event we do that way, it takes a full week just to rank and grid the 500 riders.)
The difference between our procedure and our competitors gives you a choice. as it was said earlier, Pepsi or Coke?
QuoteYou have a very interesting line of thinking, that I'm just not sure I can buy into.
Let me explain the basis of my line of thinking and then you decide.
I think that, in any given race, the fastest guy out there should have a reasonable chance of winning. No matter whether it's his first race ever or he's been running every race all season for the last 5 seasons in a row.
The way CCS does grids, satisfies this desire. The way WERA does it does not. As you or somebody else pointed out, WERA grids the first race according to points from last year. They choose to give advantage to people who spend more money with them. The CCS approach basically says, "we don't care how much money you have spent with us already, we're giving every competitor an equal chance for a good grid spot."
In MY experience, WERA grids normally have 2 or 3 waves (for classes that Novices with 600s would enter). And the races are often shortened, some times to as little as 4 laps, with only 2 run, and a red flag that is used as the excuse for calling the race complete. Under those circumstances, which in MY experience have been the norm and not the exception, people gridded at the back have NO chance of getting points, and therefore NO chance of ever getting closer to the front of the grid.
In contrast, in MY experience, CCS has smaller grid sizes and the races tend to be longer. So, even somebody who starts at the back has a reasonable chance at getting to the front, if they're fast enough.
I think the CCS approach is more sporting. That is MY opinion.
Notice how I didn't need to resort to calling anybody names, during this WHOLE post? Amazing, but it can be done, if one actually has something intelligent to say.
- Stu
QuoteQualifiying would be best, but then you would lose practice time because of qualifying
Is this true? Why couldn't you just say all of practice, all weekend, counts as qualifying?
I'm not at all trying to say you're wrong. I'm saying I haven't run a race event before, so I'm ignorant. Please help me understand.
- Stu
QuoteThere are valid reasons for both systems.
Then look at the logistics of what you few are asking for. 41 classes, gridded by points, average of 677 entries per event (2002 average, some regional events 910-990), then add two or three regions together (which happens 10-12 times a year) research which region that rider has most points in so you can grid him correctly (he deserves that if that is how you are doing it) means at least 2 extra hours per day to generate grids. Not feasible at this time unless we cut classes. (And then which classes would we cut? Like I said, not feasible at this time.) We could make it pre-entry by points , this would give us time to do the work in the office, but then you would have to send us your entry at least two weeks before every event, something that some of you object to already, so that is no solution. (Now you see why the 1600 entries at the Race of Champions is the only event we do that way, it takes a full week just to rank and grid the 500 riders.)
Ummm, Kevin, its mostly because your systems are so antiquated that this is logistically difficult. The numbers you quoted could be crunched, spit out, and printed in a matter of seconds given a decent system. Add to that system the data from mandatory electronic scoring next year :D, results could even be uploaded to the website before most racers got home on Sunday!
QuoteThe difference between our procedure and our competitors gives you a choice. as it was said earlier, Pepsi or Coke?
Well, maybe RC and Pepsi because in some areas of the country you just can't get to a RC very easily.
I have been racing under CCS for two years. From what I can see CCS wants one thing, money. they are not doing this for the riders or the sport. The whole reason for pre-entry is so they can get alot of money early in the season. here is a thought we grid under class points for all pre-entered people. but our credit card or debit card is not billed until two weeks before the event. For some reason you can not make the event you can cancel within three weeks or so.
I know of one person who thought ccs billed two weeks before like this. They signed up for the whole year. this persons checking account was then almost 2000 dollars in debt.
Any thoughts
you are absolutely right.
"I know of one person who thought ccs billed two weeks before like this. They signed up for the whole year. this persons checking account was then almost 2000 dollars in debt.
Any thoughts"
That whole 'Assume' pun comes to mind....
Our problem with qualifying has always been the extra expense it would incur for the riders rather than a lack of time. As Stu said it would be easy enough to time all of practice if we all wind up with transponders (which reminds me - Kevin, if you read this and get a chance email me about that). But once you start making qualifying as important as that then you have the expense of qualifying tires, qualifying set-ups etc... The same people who can afford to enter the whole season, or who run every race all season to get a good grid spot will be the same ones who spend the big bucks to have a qualifying bike/set-up. Then we get to more rules and more enforcement about bike swapping which adds to more work for the officials and the riders (who will of course feel the need to plice their competiton to an extent). What it means is that the final outcome is the same as it always has been in racing of any sort and always will be - the people wiht money and desire will be up front, the people doing it just for fun will not. Of course if you're doing this just for fun then grid spots and finishes shouldn't matter should they? This is club racing after all...
And Stu - from a business perspective what we and CCS do isn't catering to the people with money. It's supporting our regular customers which is a good business practice, not a bad one. The only truly sporting way to do grids is pull names from a hat - and that would be too time consuming to do in a fair and equitable manner with full oversight by the riders.
spoken like a true club racing dictator. eh stu? chad? ;)
I think THE D.O.C should change his name to THE INSTIGATOR.
QuoteI think THE D.O.C should change his name to THE INSTIGATOR.
ROTFLMAO - Amen!
Kevin/CCS:
On gridding by points:
I have no problem registering 2 weeks in advance. I have a problem that if I register 2-3 weeks in advance, I still end up in the 2nd wave. I decided to pursue more races than I anticipated in the begining of the year (thats why I didn't registered the whole year) and for the last 3 races I have been starting in the second wave. I just decided to not go to the next few races because I am not likely to finish well.
On having money and finishing well:
Yes you will finish better if you have more money. But how can I get sponsors if I don't finish well. Ok a few of us who are independently wealthy may be able to do well just outta their own pockets, but most of us need support, and we not gonna get it if we don't do well. I can't get people to sponsor me if I never finish in the top 10, and every little bit helps.
On qualifying:
Ok people with more money may be able to have different set up and use Q's and get better time. But how much better? 2-3 seconds than race time? so be it! I just don't like the idea of being gridded behind a bunch of racer who are 10 seconds slower in lap time. Which is the case in many AM races.
Out of my 8 race weekends, I all pre-entered, the best starting position in a MW race is 5th row. It is fun to fight foward and finish 10-20 positions better than where you started, but I want to win too :) I think if I get grided up front, there is a chance, but since we have 3 races to go, and I haven't registered for them, chance is slim (I am not all that fast) so I may have to just wait for next year.
I just brought up the topic because it may be SLIGHTLY fairer to the people who didn't get the chance to send the lump sum in earlier in the year(I have no problem doing so, but some of us didn't realize that you NEED to do that to ensure you do well) and by now that I realize it, it is too late for the YEAR.
either the system change or not, it is CCS's decision. I would like to see some change, but if it does not, I have $3000 saved up for the entire next season, when you guys release the schedule, you will have a check at your office the following week.
Btw, I wouldn't mind buying my own transponder. My laptimer dont work half the time, and most time I can't get people to time me, so I Don't know how I did.
QuoteI think THE D.O.C should change his name to THE INSTIGATOR.
:o why, whatever do you mean? :-[
stu, "I WANT MY 2$!!"
I don't know what classes you run in, and this might be over simplifying the problem, but have you ever considered racing in a class that has smaller grids? If your worried about top 10 finishes for sponsorship reasons , this might be the way to go. ( I race in Formula 40, where a big grid is 10 bikes) I have seen Heavyweight classes with 10-15 bikes and 600's winning them. Just my $.10 (inflation)
Does CCS want money? Well, yes, it is a business. Does it make a lot of money? No. Is it worth it? Only in the fact that the people at CCS enjoy the sport of motorcycle road racing. If someone would like to foot the bill for a day of renting a track, paying insurance, and all, not to mention handling problems that come from the riders mistakes and the like. It is for the love of the sport.
Early entries at least allows CCS to recoup some of the investments into insurance, track deposits, and the like that have to be done BEFORE the event ever happens. And even then, at some tracks, there may not be enough riders to allow the event to break even regardless of the volume discount that Clear Channel Entertainment gets on its insurance.
As for sponsorship, well, what class you race in is a factor. The race for Unlimited Grand Prix is a bit more "prestigous" than Lightweight Sportsman. Nothing against either, I race in ULGP and I'm building a LWSM bike (and how long have we been waiting for that, Kevin.) But if you were going to race a premier, slug fest class, one is more apt to receive sponsorship for that when compared to another class.
Of course then the other mitigating factor is the program that one offers a potential sponsor. There are slower riders that have created good programs. They may never be able to ride a bike to its limits, but they are well sponsored because their program exposes customers to a product.
If we grid by points, yes, do it by pre entry. Then fill the rest in by order of entry. If you do it this way, you reward early entry, consistent customers (those that may not be the fastest, but at least are committed to showing up for the series), and faster racers.
That should at least even out the playing field at the start and make it feasable that more riders could be potential front runners.
Just wanted to put in my .02...
About Sponsorship:
I may just be lucky, and/or the exception, but this is my first year racing motorcycles, and I got 4 sponsors before I even started my first race... granted they are product discount sponsorships, and not cash, but hey.. just as good, saved/s me loads of $$$.
Don't believe that you have to be top 10 to get a sponsorship. All you gotta do is ask. You just have to sell yourself as an investment... and sometimes, it's not even that difficult.
BTW, I race LW.. not even a 'premier' class, as I would say.
Indeed, product support is available. You created an image, and suppliers, out of love for the sport, support you. Very common for those who have an interest in the sport to support it.
I do the same thing selling racing fuel and offering school programs to racers.
Sponsorship, if we want to talk about the big picture, is a contractural obligation to advertise for someone. "Race to win: can be written into these contracts.
Back to our regularly scheduled electronic scoring...
let me clarify. I mean sponsorship as far as "cash" sponsor goes. Or free product.
I can buy everything I need at almost dealer price (thanks Pro-Motion) so I really don't need discounts. I need sponsors for the travel expense, entry fees, gate fees, and tires.
I just got passed on by a sponsor this week because I was not listed in the points of being top 10 (which I am I think, if the points are updated ;) )
My biggest complain is, by the time I figure out that I need to pre-reg. REALLY AHEAD of time, it is too late for the year. So I am waiting for next year.
CCS: I NEVER post entered. and I NEVER started on the first 3 rows in MW classes. So the current system DOESN'T always reward pre-entries. I pre-entered Pocono last year 1 month ahead of time, and end up on the 9th row. Lets see where I end up this time, I faxed the form Friday (1 month)
For anyone who said race other classes: in Mid-Atlantic, unless you race a LW machine, you are out of luck. GTU GTO usually have almost full grid, and the sprints are sometimes filled up BEFORE sat. morning.
When I took race school at VIR, the ONLY classe I could get in on Sun. with my 600 was Unlimited Supersport.
Basicly, if I decided mid-season to contend, it is not happening. Everything has to start in the begining fo the season. But it is harder to commit 1 entire year of effort without any cash sponsors.
So it is hard to win, it takes more than riding skills.
QuoteOur problem with qualifying has always been the extra expense it would incur for the riders rather than a lack of time. ... But once you start making qualifying as important as that then you have the expense of qualifying tires, qualifying set-ups etc... The same people who can afford to enter the whole season, or who run every race all season to get a good grid spot will be the same ones who spend the big bucks to have a qualifying bike/set-up. Then we get to more rules and more enforcement about bike swapping which adds to more work for the officials and the riders (who will of course feel the need to plice their competiton to an extent). What it means is that the final outcome is the same as it always has been in racing of any sort and always will be - the people wiht money and desire will be up front, the people doing it just for fun will not. Of course if you're doing this just for fun then grid spots and finishes shouldn't matter should they? This is club racing after all...
I think you dismiss this too easily. Sure qualifying gives extra advantages to the guys with the money for qualifying tires, etc.. But, as somebody else already said, how much difference will that stuff make to Regional racers? 1 second per lap? In my mind, the purpose of qualifying is to get the grid in approximately the right order. If I'm one of the 4 fastest guys, and I'm on the 1st or 2nd row, I'm pretty happy. I don't really care if I'm bumped one or two spots on the grid by somebody who spend all that extra money. I'm still close enough to have a fair shot at winning. Besides, how many people would bother with what you're talking about? I wouldn't. I don't think any of the guys I know would either.
I also submit that, while your approach MAY have the results you described over a whole season, I submit that it doesn't over a weekend. You said that the people with the money and the desire will be up front. I came to Roebling back in March. I spent the money on my bike. I had the desire. Furthermore, I assert that I have the ability. But, being gridded in about 40-something spot on the grid and having sprints (and my Solo 20) shortened to 6 laps meant that I still finished 17th. I.e. no points. I went to VIR and it was the same story. Gridded in the 3rd wave and decent lap times left me still with no points. I go run CCS instead, and in my last 4 races, finished 1st, 2nd, and two 4ths. No qualifying, huge grids, and frequently-shortened races means that how you finish on a WERA weekend depends a lot more on how long you've been racing with WERA, building up your points so each successive season you can start the first race with a better grid spot, than it does on your money, desire OR ability. Not saying all those things aren't important. I'm just saying how long you've been racing with the organization shouldn't be a factor in your opportunity to do well on any given weekend. My opinion.
QuoteAnd Stu - from a business perspective what we and CCS do isn't catering to the people with money. It's supporting our regular customers which is a good business practice, not a bad one. The only truly sporting way to do grids is pull names from a hat - and that would be too time consuming to do in a fair and equitable manner with full oversight by the riders.
I agree. What WERA does is definitely catering to its regular customers. However, I *personally* don't agree with a philosophy that caters to regular customers by giving them an advantage on the track. Cater to them in other ways. Give them a Frequent Racer discount on entry fees. Let them be the only ones allowed to register on Friday evening.
And why would you say that timed qualifying is not a truly sporting way to do grids? Everybody has the same opportunities and the same rules to play by. And the rules and opportunities aren't affected by how long you've been doing it or how much you've raced with that organization before. Whoever can turn the fastest time gets the pole. How can it be more sporting than that?
- Stu
sure stu-ped. lets just wittle the weekend down the weekend to four classes. {just like ths ama} and then we could do your cheesy qualifying {just like the ama}. and then both groups {while doing this to please whiny butt stu} will go under due to lack of money to support it. the ama doesn't live off of entry fees. they have tv rights and such. did you think that you could have qualifying for each and every class? i sure hope not. then it wouldn't be a race weekend, it would be a race week.
I never said qualifying wasn't sporting - only that the truest "sporting" (and by this I mean equally fair to everyone without regard to ability or money) way to grid is names out of a hat - pure luck, no other input affecting things.
As for your grid spot at Roebling - did you pre enter that race? Being the second round of the season the only people who had points were the top 15 from the Talladega round in February. What this means is that the worst case scenario if you pre entered early (as you profess to like doing with CCS which I totally understand) your worst grid spot would have been 16th on the grid assuming all 15 with points showed up - that would have put you on row 6 which at worst would have been the first row of the second wave. If you are as competitive as you say then that would not have been too much to overcome (especially give the way Chuck starts waves in the same class). This would have then give you points for the Cycle Jam...
Anyway - on the qualifying thing. This is club racing, not pro racing and the more we can do to help racers keep costs down the better for all of us and the sport. We do have classes available where people can spend all sorts of money but a procedural change like qualifying would have to be done across the board and would affect the "budget" classes as well. I think that the way CCS does it and the way we do it are the best two ways, they both have advantages and disadvantages - I of course prefer one over the other but I'm pretty biased :)
One last thing on the points/grid stuff - I don't think your argument for a different grid procedure is valid however you might have one for paying points back further....
I'm a new racer so take EVERYTHING I say with a grain of salt. AFM in California uses points to set their grid position and they also use timing transponders and it works out extremely well. At least as a rider you can see almost imediately how competitive you are to the rest of the racers and you have incentive to make as many races as possible. Cost is NOT prohibitive, in my opinion, I think the transponder is under $200 and that is less than most of us are paying for a rear tire. I don't think there is time in a weekend to have actual qualifying and a points system is fair in that if you are looking to get into a points race, if you have been competitive you don't have a bad grid postion to use as an excuse, also, it does tend to set the grid by speed which in my opinion is safer than by entry date. You could have(and sometimes do) have a front of the grid getting passed by the fastest guy in race coming from the tenth row. I don't think this is neccessarily safe for everyone in between him and the front especiallly when his pass strategy is to ride "like they aren't even there"! Also the AFM sets there practice by lap times, not what kind of bike you are on. So fast guys on any bike are riding with fast guys. You generally have common top ends, corner speed, braking points and common lines...much safer than throwing ME out there with the points leaders. Timing transponders do work and are not cost prohibitive in the big picture. Just my .02 cents.
say someone has a 600, a 750, and an SV that weekend. what keeps him from putting his transponder on his 750, and saying it was his 600/SV, etc. qualifying is not feasible.
I WANT MY TWO$ STU!!!
hmmm... good point DOC, how WOULD that work? or even... putting my transponder on DOC's bike ?
that would be one fast aprillia rs250!!! ;D
;D ..hell yea, that's what I'm talking about... I need all the help I can against those d@mn SVs
maybe you could put your bodywork on my R6?! and make ring ding ding noises with your mouth!!
Sweet! now there's an idea (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.racemotorcycles.com%2Fimages%2FYaBBImages%2Fthumbup.gif&hash=1ca7f588110e7f020dc91fd7f835cb75ed1e0a2f)
we can run practices by weight classes. still would work out to about the 6 practice group that we run now.
That way they can check the color of the tech sticker and see if you are on the right bike.
If you need help to get a good position on the grid, then you not gonna be competitive anyway. and make the penalty STIFF. like if you are caught cheating on qualifying, you will start at the back for the next 2 race weekends.
Quoteyou might have one for paying points back further....
That would definitely be a HUGE step in the right direction! Working one's way from 50th on the start to 16th at the finish and getting NO points for it is definitely demotivating. I can already hear the whining about NASCAR-like points structures...
And yes, for the record, I pre-entered every race I've run this year. Apparently, just not early enough.
- Stu