Motorcycle Racing Forum

I have been keeping an eye on the classifieds for the last few months and have noticed a large number of people selling rarely used yellow plated race bikes, a lot of them with just a couple of track days and only 1-3 race weekends on them.  

As I look at these ads I often wonder why these new racers are quitting.  Since racing is such a large investment in time and money I would think it would be a major decision to start racing, making people extremely reluctant to throw it all away and quit shortly thereafter.  

This subject has been touched on recently in other threads regarding both beginner and experienced racers.  I just want to pose an open question to those of you who know firsthand and as a new racer figure out what I need to be watchful for to avoid potential problems next year.  So here it is:

Why do so many new racers quit and what could be done to increase rider retention?  

mostly?

feelings get hurt when they find out that going fast isn't easy.

they don't realize the true/hidden costs.

Racing is expensive.  Some folks get into it and don't realize HOW expensive it is until mid-year.  Situations change, too.  People lose jobs, get married, have kids, buy houses, get divorced.

Racing is also dangerous.  Some don't consider the physical risks until they witness an incident firsthand (or they become a "casualty").  Suddenly, the reward is no longer worth the risk.

Not all of those ads are from racers quitting.  Some might be upgrading to a newer/bigger/smaller bike, too.

Seems to me the best way to answer this question is to call the ad's and ask them why first hand. I'd bet your gonna get alot of different answers.

I haven't officially quit but I have cut back to the extent you can call it quitting.  When you have to drive an average of 8 hours each way to get to the tracks in your region and then get less than 2 hours of track time for your effort and hard earned money it just isn't worth it.  Running the 125 this year has cut my costs quite a bit because the most expensive item was tires but it's still hard to justify all the hours needed for the time you get.  It also doesn't help that the bike isn't competitive/legal in very many classes.  I have just recently started racing motocross again and have found that I can generally attend 5 motocross race weekends for the price of one road racing weekend.  Practices are also 10-20 bucks a day instead of 100-200.

super Dave pointed out a stat awhile back.."2.5 years is the average duration of a racer"..
i believe it. As everyone noted above, this is a very very expensive hobby/sport and you have to have significant disposable/discresionary income to keep at it. WHen i started doing track days last march, i was going every other weekend. For some time i saw many of the same faces. Soon, one or more would drop out, often after a pretty good crash wadded the bike. Not many folks have 3-5k layin around to get it back together and often an injury tainted their love for the track.. :(

These are all very valid reasons and I want to ask a few questions about each one lain out so far.  

Money is always a motivator for action.  If there were more resources to help beginning racers understand the true costs of the sport I wonder if we could set proper expectations and keep the riders.  I know I have had a difficult time figuring out the costs for my plan next year and am probably still not very accurate in my estimations.

The danger aspect is one thing I did notice.  There were a lot of bikes with descriptions like "two races, minor crash damage". There probably is not much anyone can do to remedy the sudden feeling of mortality.  

The people upgrading to new bikes generally don't sell their whole setup.  A lot of the ads are from people selling the bike, spares, warmers, trailer, and anything else not nailed down.

Mark: I don't think asking the people quitting would give me an accurate description of the true problem.  People do not like admitting mistakes/failures/personal issues and usually will just blame it on the wife/job/dog/etc...  

One other question I would ask then is what is the difference between the guys/girls that continue in the sport and the ones that drop out?

One reason I bring this up is what Dave said about 2.5 years.  That's not a good customer lifespan for any high-cost organization.  If you ran a company which cost a lot to start up and your customers quit every 1-3 years you would be at serious risk if you had one or two bad years.


 

Has anyone think of setting up a mentorship program for the new racers.  They could sign up, pay a fee, and be helped by an expeienced rider.   Nothing as formal as a school but just a person who has been there and done it.  

Someone they could bounce startup questions off of, set realistic goals with, and get general help from for a while.  It could also help weed out those who for whatever reason do not have the means to continue racing by giving them the info up front and not be suprised by the cost of racing (both $$$, time, and potential pain)

It would be good for the new racer as they would know what they are getting into and help them get the right equipment without spending too much.  It would also provide the experts with a way to make a few bucks for helping someone out.

Just a thought.

Mad... your probably right about what I said. But it's a starting point. I have been at this for 4 years now myself. Alot of what keeps me here is my sponsership, my age, and my excitement factor. I have a great job that allowes me the $ and time to race. Not many poeple have this luxury. It is very expensive, and dangerous. I would probably be safe in saying that lack of money (or lack of knowlage of what the true cost of a racing season is) that and a combo of the prospect of getting hurt, or has been hurt is a major factor. Then there are the odd balls that get divorced, married, new job, lost job...ect. There are a lot of factors. In two instances that I personally know of. It was simply a matter of they wern't having any fun anymore and just called it quits. Thats just my opinion tho....

Just like every prisoner is innocent, every bike I sell is "gently used, only on weekends"  ;)

As everyone else mentions, it takes a lot of work to make racing FUN.

It's incredibly expensive
Takes a LOT of commitment on and off track
Requires family support (if you have a family or want to keep the one you have)
Takes a special type of individual to fall down and get back up...

If you crash and it ruins your weekend, you won't last long.  If you crash and think "if I get back to the bike quick enough I can stay in the race and finish well", you'll do okay...

"bones heal, chicks dig scars, pain is temporary but glory lasts forever"..  -phuzzygnu

One thing I've learned this year, our first year, was that if you didn't love racing/races to death, you weren't there.  It's very hard and very expensive.  There's absolutely no room for ego.  

The best return we got was all the wonderful people we met this year.  Racers are the best.    

Heather

QuoteTakes a special type of individual to fall down and get back up...

I must be "super special" then...!  ;D

It seems that a lot of the reasons the new guys quit points to a lack of knowledge of what the sport entails.  If you go into the sport thinking its like playing MotoGP on your Playstation you will obviously be disappointed with the amount of work, time, and pain involved in getting better.    

This also begs the opposite question.  If there are so many people who do not know what sacrifices the sport requires, how many interested people are financially, mentally, and physically equipped to be in the sport but lack the knowledge needed to get started?

My wife observed that racing is not just a thing to do on the weekend but rather a lifestyle.  How could the racing community develop the people suited to this lifestyle and yet be realistic with those who aren't?

QuoteIt seems that a lot of the reasons the new guys quit points to a lack of knowledge of what the sport entails.  If you go into the sport thinking its like playing MotoGP on your Playstation you will obviously be disappointed with the amount of work, time, and pain involved in getting better.    

This also begs the opposite question.  If there are so many people who do not know what sacrifices the sport requires, how many interested people are financially, mentally, and physically equipped to be in the sport but lack the knowledge needed to get started?

My wife observed that racing is not just a thing to do on the weekend but rather a lifestyle.  How could the racing community develop the people suited to this lifestyle and yet be realistic with those who aren't?

dont really have an answer to this good question, but i know for myself that i love being at the track and hanging out with friends i have met there nearly as much as racing ON the track. I love finishing a race and pointing fingers and giving "thumbs up" to the guys i battle with on the cool down lap, and not having it be an empty gesture. These are guys i talk with later in the day, occasionally email or call, and simply look forward to seeing each and every race weekend.... if guys/gals are there simply to show up/race/pack up and leave.. its hard to look forward to week in week out.
;D

I am still feeling like I don't have all of the answers...

I do know that if there are ever new guy/gals out there that would like my help, I will offer it if I have time.

I was surprized how much I have learned in 4 years racing.  New Novice racers remind me of the diffrence all of the time. I take it for granted sometimes.

I won't charge for the help...unless it takes away from my racing.  ;)

Greg hit it right on the head.  It's the ENVIRONMENT.  The sense of fellowship and community found in the paddock area is like nothing else.  I hope to continue as a racer for many years to come; however, if my personal situation dictates that I may no longer do so, I would still manage to find some way to stay involved with this "family" I have found.  

Friendship and camraderie isn't something that can be "sold" for a "mentoring fee".  I think the folks here in the Midwest do an excellent job of "mentoring" just by being the type of people they are.  Sure, I pay to attend VisionSports schools and receive ongoing support from Dave with tuning my suspension, picking my brain and helping develop my skills... but there are more folks out there than I can name who went out of their way to make me feel welcome and volunteered great advice.

I might have been off on my description of the mentoring idea.  I was thinking of something more like a getting started guide.  Someone to show you how to get signed up, how the day works, meet some of the people, etc...   For those who do not know anyone I think it would introduce them to some of the people in the area and help keep them from being frantic trying to figure out what is going on.  

kind of like freshman orientation at college.  Take you around, show you how the weekend works, meet some people, and answer some questions.  Not as much about how to race but to show you how to set yourself up and be involved in the community.  Otherwise you run the risk of the new person being shy/reserved and quiting because they only show up, race, then leave.

I added the money in there becuase that usually gets more people involved, however it could be a volunteer thing as well.



  

I've heard the saying, "The only stupid question is the one not asked".  That's what new racers need to do, ask questions. Get around the pits and talk to other racers, ask the many questions they have.

The fast racers, expert and amateur especially, they are the ones that have stuck with the program, learned and earned their place in the results. They are the ones that can help you understand the commitment it takes to participate in the sport and give advice on doing it right.

You'll find most of them will be helpful and some generous in their answers. Just don't bother them when they are busy during the race day. After the races when everyone is relaxed and bench racing is the time to get out, meet everyone and learn a lot.

Everyone has a personal reason for quitting any sport or activity. With the costs, monetary and  personal, of road racing I don't know that there is a
fix to keep racers around longer. Everything gets more expensive each year, safety gets better each year but it's still an expensive, dangerous sport and each individual has to assess their commitment and mortality at some point. Either they go for it and stay or decide it's not worth the time, expense, effort and danger and go back to what they did before racing. As MADXX stated, this is a lifestyle not just a hobby.

Also take into consideration the number of guys that go nuts on the street, watch a few races and think, "Hey I can do that". They go out and invest large in the race program then find out they're sucking exhaust fumes from all the guys out front. They don't  learn anything accept how to demolish a perfectly good motorcycle. Suddenly the ego is burst,
wallet empty or they have a large collection of medical bills. I've seen way too many guys come into riders school with all new equipment and gear only to be gone before the end of the season. I remember one guy, all stoked up and gonna kick the world's collective racing a$$ .... he never went on the track after riders school, it scared the crap out of him!

I'm sure if CCS, WERA and all the other organizations had a sure fire way to retain their racers they would all be doing it. There is no magic solution.

QuoteHas anyone think of setting up a mentorship program for the new racers.  They could sign up, pay a fee, and be helped by an expeienced rider.   Nothing as formal as a school but just a person who has been there and done it.  

Someone they could bounce startup questions off of, set realistic goals with, and get general help from for a while.  It could also help weed out those who for whatever reason do not have the means to continue racing by giving them the info up front and not be suprised by the cost of racing (both $$$, time, and potential pain)

It would be good for the new racer as they would know what they are getting into and help them get the right equipment without spending too much.  It would also provide the experts with a way to make a few bucks for helping someone out.

Just a thought.

     I was lucky enough to have someone do just that  for me.  I had just learned to ride the year previous to this year when I started racing.  I went to the track watched the races, said I would love to do that!  Met some of the other racers and was like, this would be awesome!  Then I began to inquire on the costs...oh...I thought I could do it cheaper...maybe a bit, I had no tools, no bike, nada,  BUT...had the great desire to do  it and I have.  The two that have been the bigest influences and help to all my questions/mentoring are Andy Adler and Super Dave.  

QuoteMy wife observed that racing is not just a thing to do on the weekend but rather a lifestyle.

Amen...  That's why my kids are growing up at the track (and soon to be on the track).

Both of my kids know more about bikes than probably a good 1/2 of the people who actually own them.

My wife can change my tires faster than I can, and doesn't complain when I ask her to do so.

It's definitely a family affair, and one which I can hopefully pass on and enjoy for years to come.

To that end, I don't hunt, fish, ski, bowl, play darts, golf, or just about anything else that costs money or vacation time.  I race...

I think lifestyle hit the nail on the head. Most of the fast guys either own a shop or at least work in the motorcycle industry. Not all, but most. Going to the track is part of their work and getting time for it is understood. CCS motto, 100% committed.
 I had to cut way back this year because of work and family. I'm not committed enough to change my entire life for a hobby. Then the realization hits, if you don't go regularly you won't go fast, and that is frustrating. So much to the point I've looked at it like 100% or not at all, but I'd sure miss the people.

QuoteAmen...  That's why my kids are growing up at the track (and soon to be on the track).

Both of my kids know more about bikes than probably a good 1/2 of the people who actually own them.

My wife can change my tires faster than I can, and doesn't complain when I ask her to do so.

It's definitely a family affair, and one which I can hopefully pass on and enjoy for years to come.

To that end, I don't hunt, fish, ski, bowl, play darts, golf, or just about anything else that costs money or vacation time.  I race...

Yep, what Jeff said....

At the track it is Paul, Renee (our daughter), myself and Marty (the wonder dog).

Although Paul won't let me change tires though, he is one of those that are pretty peticular about things.  

Renee, she'll be on the track when she is old enough, hopefully they will still have a class for the 125's.

Dawn   ;)

Mentors already exist. My first race was Summit last fall. I was on a vintage bike(RD400) trying to run lightweight sportsman. I was alone and lost. I was fortunate enough to pit next to Bill Davenport (a fast  amature in the MA). He walked me through the whole day, from registration to end of racing. I have made most of the southeast events this year on an FZR400. I am still slow but I have learned a bunch. Every event someone has taught me something. Show up and ask questions. This is a great buch of people that will help you if you ask. (thanks Bill)

I got my first race bike from a guy that got married and his wife wanted a house.
I got my second race bike because the guy broke his back in a race and can't race any more.
My third bike was from a guy that moved up to a faster one.
My first race year coming up: New truck, trailer, 3 bikes, spares, tires, entries..... $64,000! This coming weekend at Nelson... Solo race $80, First race on Sunday $65, Second entry $45, third entry $35. Not counting gate fees, camping, food, gas, yadda, yadda. Add all the pressures of job & family to the money mix and you have the answers. Just my .02

MONEY...If they would cut the cost of tires a little that would be a BIG Help to A LOT of people.  $340 a set is A LOT!..No wonder I flip mine and use 2 rears to 1 front.  Injury or witnessing an injury.  But I think cost has a lot to do with it.

Have a year like the one I've had this year.  The first bike wasn't competitive, the second bike ate motors like popcorn, totalled the third bike it's first weekend out...  Add crashes, tires and travel, and I've pretty much spent next year's budget already.  May have to take a year to regroup.  Not to mention that I've never gotten my head into the riding this year, so although my times have improved, I feel slower than I was last year.  Quite discouraging.
As to mentoring.  The Midwest is the capitol of mentoring.  Don Dechant became my new best friend on day one.  Rick Brewer, Ed Key, Mike Studelska, Dave Rosno...  The list goes on forever.  I started as Montez Stewart's mentor, but the roles have been reversed!  
Personally, I tend to seek out the newbiees.  Why?  Karmic payback, but there's more to it than that.  I once asked Don why he bothered to introduce himself to me and set himself up for the years of grief that have followed.  ;)  He said that it was so obvious that I was having the adventure of my lifetime as I took the rider's school, and it made him feel good to tap into that energy.  I've sure found the same to be true.  Dave Rosno is the happiest man in racing.  Why is that?  Perhaps mentoring is part of what keeps you in love with this sport.    

From someone who has seen them come and go...

D.O.C. got it pretty good.

Quotemostly?
 
feelings get hurt when they find out that going fast isn't easy.
 
they don't realize the true/hidden costs.

In the newbie racer, there are two kinds:  fast out of the box and not fast out of the box.

Road racing a motorcycle is pretty intimidating.  The guys fast out of the box are usually able to get over the initial intimidation and are able to beat up on some guys that have actually done it for a while.  The guys that are not so fast have to try harder.

The trick is that trying can be a matter of luck in getting the right answers.  For the faster guys out of the box, they usually have something physical that makes them different such as great reaction speed.  The slower one's are usually normal mortal people.  

At a point down the road, both can converge, and the pace can become equal as the "slower" guy becomes more aclimatized while the "faster" guy is just trying to go faster.  The fast guy hasn't bothered to learn anything as he's been riding on his reaction speed.  The slower guy has been watching things and picking up little tricks.

My trick there is to take the guy that is fast and show him what he needs to use the reaction speed to look at.  Make him efficient.  Slower guy?  I show him what he's feeling and how to adjust it to make it feel better to go faster.

Often the reality of racing is a lot of work to try to comprehend what's happening.  It's exhausting.  

Comprehention by most riders is seldom attained.  Even by racers that have been around for a long, long time and they are fast.  Ask them how they do something, and you might get an answer, but it might not be in a useful form.  They probably cannot express accurately how they do something or why they do it or how a motorcycle actually functions under load.

So, mentoring, per se, is really really hard.  Success by a rider can be related to physical atributes that they themselves have no understanding of, and you might have no ability to attain.  

If mentoring, or schooling, is showing someone registration and flags...  it isn't going to retain a rider for a longer duration.  Additionally, the mentor needs to be hooked into the community.  I've seen some school instructors that really don't race...they don't really play a part in the racing community except to "catch & release", for lack of a better term.  Most of the popular traveling programs that are out there are also part of this problem.  Take the guys money, give him something, possibly incomplete, then let them go, not to be seen for a year if they return.

The second problem comes back to the riders lap.  Having worked with a lot of people, some riders don't talk, don't give any feed back, and often go and get so much information from so many sources that might be relatively unfounded or reasonably incorrect, that the good information gets so corrupted that there is no hope of them seeing the difference.  And there are varing degrees of the above.  I give out a little booklet at my school.  I'm surprised at the answers that I get from my riders on occasion, that are related to what I consider basic foundations, that they can be so far off on when I gave them a direct answer in the book.  I give them books, but they only eat the covers.

Underutilization of available knowledge.  Big problem.  

The other side is that the act of road racing is NOT engineering.  There is a feel that must be attained for it all.  That's back to the fact that "their feelings get hurt when they find that going fast isn't so easy."  It's not to say that going faster should be terrifying, but occasionally, there are some uncomfortable moments.  They can be over come if delt with correctly.  

Ego?  "I don't need help."  I think some racers feel that they can do it themselves or that they are just better than racers of "previous generations" or something.  Reality is that bikes got two wheels and motorcycle tire manufacturers still don't know all the forces that occur.  How can someone new learn very much with that?  That all just costs a lot of time and money with a high probablity that there will be no return.

Expense?  Yup.  I think as racers, we even hide that from our non racing friends.  I mean, if you were an illegal drug dealer, you give away the first hit free, right?  Often, we just want to share the experience with friends.  It is way fun, the people are good.  Why not get your regular friends involved.  It's like a big crack house, right?

Quote It's like a big crack house, right?

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.fireblades.org%2Ftigerblade%2Fimages%2Fsmokin.gif&hash=082afc320f00773c8ba7f20a54baa43af63c4244)   (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.fireblades.org%2Ftigerblade%2Fimages%2Fcheers2.gif&hash=441e85b7217d8ca26d405bea1a2fd7adf6727398)

 ;D

I'll share why I'm staying with racing and at the same time I'll speak for my teammate who lurks around here from time to time, who I'm sure shares the same stance that I do. (I'm still faster than you Ryan ha ha!)

We both started riding together on the street and progressed equally. After attending a few track days, the addiction started. We both had the strong drive and desire to be faster. Racing I think is something that was always deep inside me. Having a close friend that felt the same was a big help. We helped each other with our riding, plus a little friendly competition always helps you to improve.

Preparing for our first year of racing we were able to divide the costs fairly well. We both bought fairly identical bikes so parts were interchangable. The bikes we bought were fairly old (95' and 91' F3/2's) and already race ready. Being old and cheap we wouldn't be all disappointed if we wadded them.

He had purchased a large trailer for both bikes, and we always split the towing, camping, gate fees, etc 50/50. So having a teammate to help offset the costs and the long driving time is HUGE. Also his wife helps us at every race, which is invaluable. So having someone to split the work and the costs with is awesome.

Next what keeps us coming back is the family feel that is at the race track. We've always met fellow racers that were willing to help with parts and or advice. Big thanks to Adam Vella of Webcrush Racing. Thanks Adam! Out on the track having someone show you the racing line at a track you've never been to helps you go faster and keep you safe.

The drive to improve our riding and to go faster everytime out on the track is also part of the addiction. I think that we both want to become fast amateurs and then advance to the expert level. So having goals keep me coming back. Also the fact that we've done well in our first year doesn't hurt.

So to sum up my rambling: What keeps us coming back? We've minimized the cost, having a close friend to share the ups and downs, having a "pit crew", the addiction to motorcycles and riding, the thrill and adrenaline rush, family like atmoshpere, mentors, the challenges, and the drive to be the best. Not to mention it's fun and chicks dig racers.  8) Oh and being crazy helps!  :o

Ryan, if I missed anything feel free to chime in.  :P

Quote I give out a little booklet at my school.  I'm surprised at the answers that I get from my riders on occasion, that are related to what I consider basic foundations, that they can be so far off on when I gave them a direct answer in the book.  I give them books, but they only eat the covers.

Can your book be ordered from your web site? if not when will be so us MA people can read it?

Quote;D

I'll share why I'm staying with racing and at the same time I'll speak for my teammate who lurks around here from time to time, who I'm sure shares the same stance that I do. (I'm still faster than you Ryan ha ha!)

We both started riding together on the street and progressed equally. After attending a few track days, the addiction started. We both had the strong drive and desire to be faster. Racing I think is something that was always deep inside me. Having a close friend that felt the same was a big help. We helped each other with our riding, plus a little friendly competition always helps you to improve.

Preparing for our first year of racing we were able to divide the costs fairly well. We both bought fairly identical bikes so parts were interchangable. The bikes we bought were fairly old (95' and 91' F3/2's) and already race ready. Being old and cheap we wouldn't be all disappointed if we wadded them.

He had purchased a large trailer for both bikes, and we always split the towing, camping, gate fees, etc 50/50. So having a teammate to help offset the costs and the long driving time is HUGE. Also his wife helps us at every race, which is invaluable. So having someone to split the work and the costs with is awesome.

Next what keeps us coming back is the family feel that is at the race track. We've always met fellow racers that were willing to help with parts and or advice. Big thanks to Adam Vella of Webcrush Racing. Thanks Adam! Out on the track having someone show you the racing line at a track you've never been to helps you go faster and keep you safe.

The drive to improve our riding and to go faster everytime out on the track is also part of the addiction. I think that we both want to become fast amateurs and then advance to the expert level. So having goals keep me coming back. Also the fact that we've done well in our first year doesn't hurt.

So to sum up my rambling: What keeps us coming back? We've minimized the cost, having a close friend to share the ups and downs, having a "pit crew", the addiction to motorcycles and riding, the thrill and adrenaline rush, family like atmoshpere, mentors, the challenges, and the drive to be the best. Not to mention it's fun and chicks dig racers.  8) Oh and being crazy helps!  :o

Ryan, if I missed anything feel free to chime in.  :P

I just go so I can beat you...

j/k

Ray sumed it up for us.  Of course the $$ is a big factor, but cutting back on spending in other areas has helped me out quite a bit, and having someone to shage the $2-300 gas bill certainly helps.

I have support of my faimily and friends (who are coming out to watch this weekend), a great paying job, and the ability to take time off when I need it.  (down side is, I get a 3-4 hour notice before I have to travel to distant places, like Japan)...

We have met so many people at the track, and developed aquaintences into friendships.  It's great to get passes by someone you know, and work hard to pass them back... and be able to talk/joke about it after the race is over...

Those are the factors that are helping me stay with it.  I would guess that the absence of those factors would cause a person to quit.


Ryan
137 Donkey Punch Racing

In addition to the money its what S_D said. Racing is a quantifiable experience. Unlike other things in life which may give you a feeling of improvement, track times and race placement are the real deal. You either get better or you don't, and the truth is handed to you on a piece of paper. Many guys "think" they are fast and find out the truth when they get to the track. Some spend a lot of time at track days in the beginner group, cherry picking to their hearts content, and "think" they are fast. On the track, they learn the truth. If you think you're fast, ride against Stumpy; Whew, he's fast.
Back to what S_D said; there is a LOT going on in one lap that requires lightning reflexes, instant decisions, and overcoming the stark fear of T1 braking and getting and analyzing the feedback from the bike. For an old fart like me, just remembering the track layout and some what of a decent line is enough of a challenge. Then throw in questions from S_D like "How did the bike "feel" in the entrance, mid and exit of each corner"? ALL 13 OF THEM?
It's an enormous undertaking to be a racer and be good at it. It's a lot like high school kids having babies 'cause it's cool and then finding out it's a big-time committment. Pretty disheartening when you keep getting minimal improvement, or run into a "wall" and look back at all the money you are spending.
But what do I know? I'm just a dumba$$ with 1 race weekend under my belt.

I had to double check, but it took Dave Rosno till the second page top make a post.

But he more than made up for that by the length of his post  :P ( I can say that cause I've been racing for over a decade too)

Anybody want to purchase my 2001 GSXR 1000? I'm updating for next year.

QuoteI give out a little booklet at my school.  I'm surprised at the answers that I get from my riders on occasion, that are related to what I consider basic foundations, that they can be so far off on when I gave them a direct answer in the book.  I give them books, but they only eat the covers.

You gave us booklets?  LOL.  I guess I should find my folder and check it out... silly me probably assumed it was a packet full of stickers and advertisements like another school I attended.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure the cover was pretty tasty...  ;)

To comment on the rest of the topic at hand...

I've wanted to race *something* for as long as I can remember.  I wanted to race Porsches from about the time I could spell it.  My cousin turned me on to motocross when I was ~14, and even tho I *really* sucked at it, the competitive drive kept me going.  By 16 I wanted to road race, but knew it was expensive and couldn't afford it.  I stuck it out with motocross a few years before putting racing on the back burner altogether and concentrating on my degree.

Started roadracing last year, late in the season.  LOVED it, was twice as much fun as I'd hoped it would be.  Would probably classify myself as one of the "fast out of the box" guys.  I actually did better than I expected to do, so that helped to add to my urge to keep going.

Made it 2 race weekends before crashing during Rosno's school.  Messed up the top of my foot, but probably would've finished the day out had I not destroyed my boot and broken the frame on the bike (stupid Suzuki frame tabs.)  Since it was near the end of the season already, and I was already out a sizeable chunk of cash between bike prep, fixing the frame, etc. I just decided to wait for the next year.

This year started, and ended... in the first weekend.  Crashed, broke my shoulder in several places.  Lying in the mud in the most intense pain I've ever felt, I decided that I was done for good.  By the time I got to the hospital, the drugs kicked in, the pain died off.  The doctors were thinking I had just dislocated my shoulder... and my thoughts switched from "I quit" to "hurry up and fix my shoulder, I might be able to make the last race of the day."  Once I learned that I had broken it, I knew that was the end of this season.

Desire still hasn't died.  It's faded from time to time.  But now that my shoulder has healed a bit, I've forced myself back out on the track.  And I still have the urge to race.  So I'll be out there next year (budget allowing, of course.)

I appreciate all the comments from everyone here.  I sometime like to throw out questions like this to see if my thoughts are in line with reality and to find out what others think about various topics.  Just give me a few beers and a campfire and I'll philosophize with anyone until the sun rises.  :D

This question however is somewhat personal to me because I will be starting racing next year and have found it somewhat difficult to find information on my own.  I am making some major changes to my life now to accommodate racing in the years to come and I want to make sure I am doing this for the right reasons and are not destined to failure by incorrect assumptions.  I do not personally know anyone doing this other than the few people I have met briefly at the track or on this board and am sometimes flying blind in regards to what I need to start up.  I have been corner-working for the last few months to figure out what is going on but I know I am missing a lot.

I will be more than happy to solicit and take the advice of those who are willing to share it and look forward to racing with all of you next year.  To me the racing community is one of the selling points of the sport.  I don't think anything in life is really much fun without good people to share it with.  

Hope to see some of you at Gingerman,

MadXX a.k.a. Chad Berkan

Chad,

Just so you know, I doubt you can find 1 racer who has not had to make significant changes and sacrifices in their life to pursue racing.

If I'm done, it's because my broken neck won't allow me back out there.  But you know I'll get several opinions.

heh. when the last person was airlifted out of BHF my wife told me that if I get airlifted she is going to sell my bike in the pits for 50 bucks before I touch down at the hospital.   :o

after two months I think I have convinced her to at least wait for the prognosis.

I told my mother I would quit when I've broken over half the bones in my body.  I haven't even broken ONE during racing yet... (2 on the street and 1 at school).  I've got what, like 105 to go?   ;D

Before I started I asked advice from a exp. racer and got the following:

money  pit

take all your money to a field and burn it, equal to racing

you'll never win

you're too old

you'll kill yourself

no wonder new guys/gals quit, they're filled with negative thoughts even before they put a wheel on the track.

let's face it, everything is a money pit.  my GT mustang is a money pit for the next 3 years until it's payed off.  same with my house until 2018...lol

i don't want to burn my money in a field so i'd rather put it towards racing/ track days/ maintenance etc...it's all about the budget!

i won't know if i won't win unless i try.  winning to me right now is finishing ahead of the rider in front of me!!!

age is a state of mind.  yeah it would have been nice if my parents put me on a pw50 when i was 4 but that didn't happen so it's time to play catch up.

if you're afraid of dying then stay in your house all day for the rest of your life...however, you'll still die one day!!!

Just my $.02

This is my first full year racing.  I started out keeping track of all the expenditures and quit doing that when I hit $27,000.  That was before the second race weekend.  Keep in mind, it can be done cheaper.  I started with a new bike and every thing I purchased was new, I really could have settled for some used stuff.

I am a mid pack rider in HWSS and MWSS and in the top three in F40 so I am very satisfied with my results.  That helps keep me excited and makes me want to return.

I crashed a couple times, but was not seriously hurt.  That gave me a better feeling about the crashing part, although I know it is dangerous.

I have made some friends and developed friendships that will last a life time.  That is what makes me want to be there every weekend.  This is the only sport I know of where a complete stranger will give you his clutch plates so you can repair your bike and race.

My girlfriend (someday to be my wife) has been nothing but super great in supporting me.  She goes even when she would rather do something else because she knows I like her being there.  She helps in the pits.  She worries.  She wishes me luck.  She smiles when I finish mid-pack.

I think staying with it is easier if one has:
1. Money
2. Desire and not too big an ego
3. Support from family and friends and
4. Luck

I hope you get to do it and have fun.

Quote...This year started, and ended... in the first weekend.  Crashed, broke my shoulder in several places.  Lying in the mud in the most intense pain I've ever felt, I decided that I was done for good.  By the time I got to the hospital, the drugs kicked in, the pain died off.  The doctors were thinking I had just dislocated my shoulder... and my thoughts switched from "I quit" to "hurry up and fix my shoulder, I might be able to make the last race of the day."  ....

That's good, and it reminds me of the hold racing has on a lot of us. I low sided at VIR in August cracking 3 ribs. As I lay there in pain I thought to myself, "F-this, I'm not racing anymore." Now mind you, this was my third crash in as many weekends, and just coming back from a broken collarbone. In the crash truck on the way back to the pits, I thought to myself, "F-this, I'm not racing this year anymore". By the time I got to my pit, I thought to myself, "huh, the bike is in pretty good shape, just need a new fairing stay and clip-on. I should be ok to race next month".

As for the money, yes it is expensive. But what isn't? I look at my race weekends as my vacations for the year. I usually turn them into 3 or 4 day events. I average spending about $500 a weekend. What else can you do on a 4 day vacation for less than $500. Not much. A long weekend at the shore? No. How about 4 days at Disney? I don't think so. I nice trip skiing up in Vermont? $500 easily. Do any of these trips equal the fun you'll have at the track. No way!

But I will say, tires are a rip off. They are not worth $350. Especially since they only last a couple weekends at best.

QuoteBut I will say, tires are a rip off. They are not worth $350. Especially since they only last a couple weekends at best.

They last a WHOLE lot longer if you're old and slow.  ;D

QuoteI think staying with it is easier if one has:
1. Money
2. Desire and not too big an ego
3. Support from family and friends and
4. Luck

I hope you get to do it and have fun.

I'll chime in here.

Money helps in that your expendatures rise to the level, and above, your income.  In 1993, I dropped about $18,000 on my 750 and 600 AMA Supersport program (11th nationally in 750, on a 600, Yates beat me to 10th, but he was on a Suzuki Sport GSXR750...he still rode well) in addition to winning eight class championships, a regional championship, and doing Honda Challenge Contingency races where I could fit them in.  

I always look at ways how I can do things myself, more efficently, for less cost.  Dale Quarterley was able to do pretty much anything himself if needed.  Cut his costs quite a bit.

I think some racers live in a bit more "pampered" state now.

What disappoints me so much is how some decent riders not only quit their involvment in actual racing, but they completely leave the community.  Many people that are "insiders" were racers.  Jim Allen, Tom Mason, Walt Schaefer, Kevin Elliott, and the list goes on.  

Personally, I have a real hard time doing this all myself, even though I've pretty much had to fend for myself for most of my career.  I'd just like to have a consistent traveling companion that can help me do some of the "Oh, $hit!" things that happen.

Book?  For sale?  No, not at this time.  I keep changing it, modifying it.  Some of it was geared toward rules and things.  Maybe at some point it would be more of what I feel is market able.  I really keep it kind of an exclusive thing for the ones that come to my school.  As for MA...someone was talking about renting me for a small group, but haven't heard much on that lately.  That would be the best way to get the experience and get the book...  Getting one to "do" the stuff is a better learning experience...reading it is just "ok".

Tires a rip off?  Well, if you'd like to go back several years ago, we used to use bias ply tires.  They were like $180 a set, but for the real fast guys, they could toast them in a eight lap sprint race for Suzuki Cup money, no problem.  No sidewalls left.  After twelve to fourteen years, the bikes cost twice as much, so do the tires, but the grip is really a whole lot better.  That's the real improvement in lap times, not HP.

 I just got my license in June at BHF on our BMW. Worked all summer to put the bike back together to sell and find my real bike for the track-GSX-R 1000. This stuff takes a committment, work, money, and patience. My personal opinion is that our drive- through society wants too much, right now. A lot of these folks have probably not been riders for most of their lives. They did not realize that racing on a track takes development time as a racer becomes more familiar with their bike.
  The Rick Breuer crew are probably the closest thing to a mentoring thing you'll find right now. They seemed to be interested in more than just turning out our class, and cashing our checks. One strange thing I noticed; of the 14 or so in our class for licensing, I was the only one back at the track on Sunday to purchase license and race. Anyway, hopefully I'll find time to shake my nerves off, walk around, and meet some of you folks at Gateway. MADxx- good posting, fuel for campfire.      

Well, a GSXR1000 is really a bad choice for a race bike, especially for an amateur.  

I think there are many that feel that amateurs should have to be limited to 750cc's.  It was that way years ago, and even in the AFM in California, they were limited to 600cc's.  That was several years ago when the open class bikes weren't so ridiculous.

I hope your program with the Learning Curves group goes well.  I have offered racer programs on my dates for about five years in the area, in addition to the advice that my students receive on race weekend about riding, suspension, and mind set.  Mind set is a big one.   I am in the area, so I would hope that the network of racers would have pointed you my way, but it doesn't happen all the time.  

The Visionsports' program has really had a focus on instructing amateur and expert racers.  I have taught the entry level programs for CCS in the past.  What we do is quite a bit different.

Good luck!

  Hmmmm, why do so many new racers quit? I have never met "Super Dave", although I loved your show and that great Evil Knievel suit you wore, you're basically judging me w/o even meeting? Where does XX say, "Let's have a talkback style forum and shred newbies for their bike choices."? How long have I/you been riding street bikes? What kind? How long have you/I been riding and racing dirtbikes? What classes have I taken on which tracks? Why do so many new racers quit? Here's one good example.
  There is a kid on another board, asgrnastheycome, who has been posting questions and polls right off the flagpole. He's new. Just got his road license a year ago. Finally, some grumpy old codgers told him to take his questions and polls somewhere else. Why?
  Why do so many new racers quit? We're bopping along having a good old time getting inot this new hobby when old codgers tell us " how it is". I believe the thread was about new racers quitting and not self promoting your business. No Dave, I have never heard of Vision Sports. Perhaps you run a Class A school that turns out great racers? Let's meet at Gateway and you can tell me why the GSX-R 1000 is a "...really bad choice for a race bike."              

I believe Dave's comment about the 1000 was geared towards the bike's ability to cripple a newbie, and thus them quiting. Newbie's shouldn't run anything bigger than a 600, horsepower doesn't teach you a thing about racing. ;D ;D ;D

Maybe I can add to the fire. Just kidding!  :-X

I can't speak for SD, but I'm pretty certain his post wasn't an attack on you. Dave's experience is quite obvious if you look at some of his posts. So I'll let him speak for himself on that one.

QuoteThere is a kid on another board, asgrnastheycome, who has been posting questions and polls right off the flagpole. He's new. Just got his road license a year ago. Finally, some grumpy old codgers told him to take his questions and polls somewhere else. Why?

Why? As far as those other boards go, I'll tell you why new people get bashed. They ask the same questions over and over and over. They'll post polls asking: "What tire is the best?", "What bike is the fastest?", "What exhaust gives the most HP?", "Is the blue one really faster than the red one?".  ::) First questions should be about how to become a better rider, not how can I add performance to a machine that I don't know how to opperate as is?

When some of the veterans "old codgers" read that stuff over and over again, it gets obnoxious. I know, I've been on both sides of the fence on that one. This board is quite different. I'm fairly new to the CCS community, but I've been involved in bikes long enough to see things like that happen on the "other boards". That's one reason why I don't frequent them any more.

There are allot of experienced people on this board. Most of us have ridden, owned, and raced quite a few bikes out there and know allot about them and about riding and racing. So, there's allot to be learned from the people here. I learn stuff everyday, this board rocks!  ;D Give yourself a little time to get familiar with the people here.

A 1000cc bike is a bad choice for an Amateur. Speaking as one, I have no desire to race one. Do I own one? Yup. As an Amateur I'm constantly learning. It's much easier to learn on a smaller bike. Kinda sounds familiar doesn't it? I know I don't recommend a 1000cc to a first time biker, why would it be any different for the first time racer?  ;) So please don't feel insulted if any old codgers tell you it's a poor choice as a racebike. They're probably speaking from some kind of experience and are trying to help.  :)

Quote"Why do so many new racers quit? We're bopping along having a good old time getting inot this new hobby when old codgers tell us " how it is". "

I don't think I know anyone who has quit the sport of riding yet alone racing, from what someone posted on the internet. I think most people quit because of money, injuries, or they find that it's not for them (for whatever the reason).

QuoteLet's meet at Gateway and you can tell me why the GSX-R 1000 is a "...really bad choice for a race bike."

That's the kinda of attitude that gets the reaction from the "old codgers". The new guy "boppin" along with a huge ego and a chip on his shoulder. I'll put money on it that if Dave or any of the experts or fast amateurs could make you think your 1000 was a 125 out on the track.  ;D

Hope some of this helps!

Ray

Quote  Let's meet at Gateway and you can tell me why the GSX-R 1000 is a "...really bad choice for a race bike."              

Super Dave gave you an excellent piece of advice for free, you should take it.  And if your "lets meet at Gateway" comment is a race challenge, where do I get in on the betting? ;D

Another good reason a 1000 is a bad bike to start on?  You are only able to enter 3 races per weekend.

Hey Am251,

 Super_Dave is one that you want as your friend, and one who will lead you in the CORRECT direction.
I am giving you emotional and drama free conversation here, or you can say MY opinion.... may not matter to you, my opinion or the next, maybe not even Super_Dave's, but we wouldnt want you to waste time, money or injury with a bike that will demand time, money and hopefully NOT injury....

the thing is, with such a big bike, with such horse power and "demand" for breaking distance, and focus...   IT's REALLY tuff for experts and Pro's to make fast laps on "monster" horsepower machines...

DONT mistake us, really tuff, doesnt mean that you wont be able to SHOCK :o a lot of people, you can call it possible, as I do, ...... However...
RoadRacing is WAAAY more about turning and corner speed rather than straightaway speed/pull/power..... you will hear about many experts going from middleweight class to lightweight classes due to the difficulty in riding as fast as a middleweight can go....
in other words, you'll be able to go fast on a lightweight than a middleweight, and of course a heavyweight, which is a 750, but youre wanting to start out in Formula Extreme...... we're not knocking you, cuz we all have a thought pattern and ego's too, but if you are going to be aiming at getting good at this anytime soon, we are suggesting that you get a bike that will be easier to learn "roadracing" on, not knocking you at all, 1000 are just difficult at best,... best wishes

Chef

  OK, I have painted a big fat bulls-eye on my back. Saying that I would meet Dave at Gateway was not a challenge for a race, or anything other than a conversation about GSX-Rs. That's it.
  MadXX- it is still a great post as part of the future of this sport lies in the answer. New blood interested in the sport to commit their time and money are walking away faster than they are coming in.
  
        
      

Listen to Super Dave.... He's by far one of the most knowlagable racers/instructors that I have had the pleasure of communicating with. Dave.... You rock dude! This is a very difficult sport to get into. ANY & ALL information Dave (or any other "old coddler") gives you should be taken to heart. We all want you to have a great time racing and meeting new friends. But first and formost we want you to be safe on the track. Like it was said earler in this tread... HP dont win races. Experiance and knowlage is the key. Stay off the 1000's for now. When I first started racing I was riding a Sporster 1200. Bad choice I made. That bike was an eye opener. I slammed that bike on the ground more than I would like to admit. (It beat the piss out of me!) Got hurt a few times. I wish I had started on a different/smaller bike. But...My case was a little different than most. (long story) I wont get into it here. Bottom line is saftey and experiance is the key. We all want to see you succede and most of all... enjoy your time at and on the track. Listen to what advice is being given to you. It is invaluable!

I don't think it should be a nature of what bike you are on, but more of " what do you want to get out of your race experience.

If you want to race 9 races a weekend, a 600 might be your choice.

Is a 1000cc bike good for a first race bike? There again it goes back to what you want to get out of racing.

A 1000 takes a lot more skill and maturity to ride than a 600. If you want to relax and have a fun racing, there is absolutley nothing wrong with starting out on a 1000. You will just have to learn throttle control  very quickly.

It is harder to go faster on a 1000 than a 600.

Back in the last century when I was an Amateur (1992), You could only race a 1000 (or big bore bike) in 1 class, that was GTO (and it was 100% legal to do so, there were no displacement restrictions for amateurs in that class from 1992 to present, prior to that I do not know, but you know what, who cares if there were restrictions, I raced against amateurs that had 1000CC bikes in GTO). So your racing options were limited. Now as an amateur you have 3 races to compete in.

If a 1000 is all you have, I say go race it. I would rather you be out there on someting than sit at home doing nothing.

I'm a first year racer this year.  I guess I am a "fast out of the box" rider.  I think most people quit because of money.  I was figuring on $500-$750 per weekend at the most with a set of tires (per what everybody told me) lasting two to three weekends.  Well, as I got faster and faster each round, I began to toast a set of tires per DAY, not even per weekend.  Then I blew a very expensive motor up.  Then I crashed a few times.   Etc, etc, etc.  While I am not the average new racer, I sure can see why somebody might quit after a year like I've had.  As far as the 1000 for a first bike goes...I decided that I want a 1000 for next year to ride along with my Duc.  I stood at the Dunlop trailer for a few minutes waiting for my tires to be mounted when a couple of the fast 1000 and 750 experts came over to get their tires.  They had a cart with 4 sets of tires to be mounted on 3-4 sets of wheels.  4 SETS OF TIRESMy immediate plans have changed to probably riding the Duc only until mid-season and then maybe getting a 600 to go with it.  I hope that answers your question as to why a 1000 sucks as a first racebike for most people.  

The answer is plain and simple son,MONEY! Those who don't have enough have the most desire. Those who have it are lethargic and slow. Unless they were lucky enough to be supported well enough by there parents. Here's a little insight on how it used to be and the way it is. When I first started in '94, The parts cost to do a supersport (ccs) motor was about $450-$550 depending on type of bike. I just bought parts for my two year old suzuki to freshen the motor and the parts bill was $1000. About doubled in 10 years! In '94  $1000- $1100 would get the motor built by the race shop owner including parts. The following was assuming that valves wern't replaced which then costed about $250 for a 16-valve motor. now $350 for valves. Labor costs??! Try about $1000-$1200 to start. Wanna talk tires??Dunlop SportmaxII's went for about $275 a set for a big bike. Now, I think the 208A's (that is all they have now!) will set you back abouy $370. They are a much better tire! Entry fees.: $160 used to get you a Four race weekend. Remember 50 mile GT races? If you have been around awile you will, but chances are most of you won't. Sprint races used to be 8 laps at tracks about 2.5 miles in length. Did you notice I said weekend? That's because there were no 1 day programs back then combining am/ex in the same race. Why? It is kind of hard to do when there was 40-60 amateurs and 30-40 experts in a middleweight class! So now that anyone bored enough to read this has done so, you now will know why racing has been taking a dump in the last 5 years.

Interesting thread! This question has no one answer but thousands! I have been involved in roadracing for over 20 years and dirttrack racing for 10 before that. I could tell you why a person quits from the answers i hear ever year but that might not be the reason you quit! Racing is a sport that involves ego's and expectations and how you deal with it will determine the reason you quit. Yes in most cases you jump in head first eyes wide shut and find out your in way over your head. Any advice you get most of the time is just plain wrong but you don't know any better (not your fault) Just like any other sport 99.9% of racers will never really become a proffessional , oh yes they will enter an AMA race but in most cases they are just moving chicanes.In the mid west there have been probably only a handfull of racers that have made it in the big leagues! If new racers would just race for the fun and thrill it gives that would stick it out a lot  longer!

Oh and by the way , any racer that starts off on a 1000 is just plain foolish! anyone that would advise someone to do this is an idiot , sell the 1000 if thats what you have and buy a sv650 , even a good running 600 is too much to start out on.

     When I started racing in '96 it was on a new '96 GSXR 750, 1 of only a few in the midwest regions at that time. That bike was very fast compared to those I was racing against and could pass almost any bike on the straights at that time. What I found was that I had to learn incredible respect for the throttle or the back end would come around on me in a split second while accelerating out of a turn. I found that even though I was running in the top 5 quite often over the next couple years, it was more about me powering past people than having good corner speed. I know it had to be frustrating for those that I raced against who would make a great pass on me in the turns only to have to do it again after I flew by them on the straights. At tracks like BHF the fast guys on the newer 600's are often times able to beat the larger bikes. The more HP you have will make it much harder to accelerate out of the turns than the lower HP bikes, therefore the smaller bikes can get on the gas sooner and harder.

     Riding the larger bikes will give you a false sense of accomplishment when comparing your lap times to other riders on different bikes. The time you make up on the straights is offset by the time you loose by the lack of cornering speed. Racing the bikes with less than 100 to 110 HP will probably end up costing you alot less. The possibilities of new riders having crashes on higher HP bikes is very real and can be quite costly not only moneywise, but injurywise as well.

I started this year on a 1000 twin (RC51), mainly because I wasn't sure how much racing I would get to do this year and the RC was going to be both street and racebike.  Of course, I'm hooked on racing now and don't really care about having a double-duty bike.  I crashed once this year at MAM by spinning up the rear trying to get a good drive down the straight.  Otherwise, I didn't feel I was too far in over my head, but I probably would have gotten more benefit from running an SV.  Next year, I plan to have either an SV or possibly a 600.  I want to really learn and be a better rider.  

I too, started racing on a liter-class twin.  It was the only suitable bike in the garage at the time.  I can't speak for anybody else's experience, but I do believe that my learning curve has been much steeper and sharper as a result of having to manage all that weight, horsepower and torque while at the same time master braking/cornerspeed.

I have little doubt that I'd be much faster (and having more fun) now had I started out on a bike that was a little more "manageable".

It still beats not being out there at all tho.

QuoteJust like every prisoner is innocent, every bike I sell is "gently used, only on weekends"  ;)

As everyone else mentions, it takes a lot of work to make racing FUN.

It's incredibly expensive
Takes a LOT of commitment on and off track
Requires family support (if you have a family or want to keep the one you have)
Takes a special type of individual to fall down and get back up...

If you crash and it ruins your weekend, you won't last long.  If you crash and think "if I get back to the bike quick enough I can stay in the race and finish well", you'll do okay...

"bones heal, chicks dig scars, pain is temporary but glory lasts forever"..  -phuzzygnu

oh how true that stuff is ........

i fall and run to the bike thinking can i make up the time ?!?!!?  heheh  not smart but true.....

some people just do not have the devotion to stay with it ., it is also very demanding !!!

I had the worst last two race weekends ever!!!!
I am not going to give up!   NO F*****  way!!!!!!!!!

QuoteI had the worst last two race weekends ever!!!!
I am not going to give up!   NO F*****  way!!!!!!!!!

Thats the spirit! Everyone has a bad weekend now and then. Keep the faith Smoke, It gets better! My worse day at the track is better than my best day at work! ;D

QuoteI had the worst last two race weekends ever!!!!
I am not going to give up!   NO F*****  way!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately we all experience crappy, sucky weekends (or if you are us, it was three race weekends in a row).  Last year, Road America, Paul tosses it in the carosel and slides and slides and slides and then tumbles and tumbles and tumbles, leathers are shot, gloves, helmet, bike trashed.  But the most important thing is that Paul was OK (he got the nick name Gumby that weekend).

The next race weekend, never made it down.  Paul went off roading with the motor home and rolled our enclosed trailer.  Long story.....

The next race weekend, we actually made it to the track, but Paul crashed again.  After that....  It took a while for Paul's head to get back in the game.  It wasn't until our last race weekend of that season before Paul felt 'racey' again.

This year, was a totally different story.  But you know, even though last year sucked, I'm glad we did it.

Dawn   :)

I leave for a few days and everything gets interesting...

First, I think Jim put this very, very well.

QuoteI could tell you why a person quits from the answers i hear ever year but that might not be the reason you quit! Racing is a sport that involves ego's and expectations and how you deal with it will determine the reason you quit. Yes in most cases you jump in head first eyes wide shut and find out your in way over your head. Any advice you get most of the time is just plain wrong but you don't know any better (not your fault)

This is racing, and sometimes there is a bit of posturing and some mind games.  Sometimes, the people that can control the games do well.  Additionally, those that don't get involved in the games, can do well.

And there is a lot of bad information out there.  Big, big, BIG problem.  Sometimes, I give out free advice...rarely.  Usually, when I do, that is the advice that is the least followed.  I'm here to help, but what people do with information...well, if their ego will allow their mind to listen, things can be easier.

am251...

QuoteLet's meet at Gateway and you can tell me why the GSX-R 1000 is a "...really bad choice for a race bike."

...not sure what to make of all this.

Yes, never met you.  Yes, I still don't think it's a good choice.  I call that one like I see it.  

I don't put out great racers.  I work with a select group of people on both sides:  racers and the sponsors of my program.  I try to get them all together.  What I do is try to get the riders to see the common denomenators that can make the whole package work.  I really don't do many licensing things for new guys, but I work with a huge number of current racers that have gotten over the ego issues of "I'm better" or "I'm different" so "I can do this this way and it will work."  Honestly, I am here to help.  It's not something that I take lightly.  It's something that I have done for quite a long time that sacrifices my personal racing performance on the track.  The return is that I am able to be involved in the personal revelations and victories of a group of racers.  That's my biggest reward.  Certainly isn't monetary.

Back to the 1000.  

I've raced with, known, and taught some fast riders.  The current crop of 1000cc in-lind four bikes are just about unreal.  (Sorry, Kim and Kris...the twins are 1000's, but they don't have the same HP as the 750 fours.)  My first student was a guy by the name of Monte Nichols.  Good rider.  Moved through the ranks, amateur, expert, did some AMA pro stuff...He actually won an AMA Pro race at Road America.  We're not talking about a CCS event, which he's done, this is the "Full Monte"  (That was the headline in Cycle News...).  So, Monte and I talked about superbikes last year, and he lit the switch.  Raced a GSXR1000, in basic production trim with a Micron Pipe, Hyperpro suspensions, and GMD work by http://4and6.com ....  A rider of Monte's caliber found it hard to ride.  Monte's not Mat Mladin or even Michael Barnes for that matter, but he is gifted in riding and reaction speed whatever.  I've ridden a 1000 too.  Needless to say, they are a handful, to put it very mildly.

 I am only expressing to you the history of racing open class bikes in club racing and the experiences we have.  If you see what I said as something else, I guess I'm sorry to hurt your feelings.

As for me plugging my school.  Well, it's something I offer.  You didn't know anything about it, and you seem amused by it, so I guess I have work to do.  The banter I do on this board is free, if I choose to even do so.  I seldom give out any information at the track except to my students exclusively.  They have taken to opportunity to work with me, and they are rewarded with that exclusivity to have me either readjust their suspension, or their attitude.  

As for refering to me second-handedly as "an old codger".  Gee, I guess you know my age and all.  I have done this for a long time, but I still have some time before I'm able to run in Formula 40.  Probably not good to come into all this with a lot of preconceived notions.

Back on track

First, thanks for all the good words while I was away.  And even from guys that haven't came to my school.... 8)  ...and riders that I want to help more...

Ok, yeah, this costs money.  Money won't buy anyone experience.  Desire and determination sometimes will not get you there.  Some just might not have the physical dexterity or reaction time to be good enough to go as far as they would like.  Knowledge will go a longer way than money.  Knowledge can be gained either by experience, or by finding someone that has had multiple experiences (that's where I come in again...right? :P) to learn from.

Expense of building motors?  Is it really relevant?  Is it completely necessary?  Jerry Rothman got like 3rd several years ago on a pretty much stock bike, sans suspension, in the AMA 750 Supersport race at Daytona.  Suspension is the key, and that is really reasonable, and it hasn't gone up that much over all these years.  I think I dropped $700 on my White Power rear shock on my 600 Katana in 1988.  Went fast on that then with stock pipes.  Won championships on my stock motored GSXR600 a couple years ago.  Now, I get my bike GMD Computracked by people I trust...I use their experience, again, so that what little financial resources I have go toward putting in good laps, a better set up, and race entries.  

But keep it simple.  It will always be the key.

My turn to chime in real quick.

I went from racing a stock Ducati 996 to a full on 170hp Suzuki 1000 superbike this year in AMA.

I can tell you a 1000 is a handful.  All of your problems are compounded i.e. trying to get it stopped, suspension working properly to try and harness all of that power, try running it in a little deeper into a turn and the speed is compounded exponentially compared to a smaller bike and the dreaded tire bill.

A brand new slick is only good for 20 laps before you start to spin the thing up a lot.  Superbike races are 28 laps generally and tire management was key.  I had a huge amount of seat time on mine this year and the learning curve was hugely steep.  However, I finally have the thing working well and it is a blast to wheelie out of every turn at Gingerman.  However, Jesse out ran us all on his 600 and we were getting worn out trying to handle a 1000 on that track.

A 1000 will cost tons more to race and greatly increases the "Oh crap" factor in your pants.

I raced an SV650 a few times last year in some team challenges and had an absolute blast on it.  You could race that for less than 1/2 the cost of a 1000

My turn to chime in real quick.

I went from racing a stock Ducati 996 to a full on 170hp Suzuki 1000 superbike this year in AMA.

I can tell you a 1000 is a handful.  All of your problems are compounded i.e. trying to get it stopped, suspension working properly to try and harness all of that power, try running it in a little deeper into a turn and the speed is compounded exponentially compared to a smaller bike and the dreaded tire bill.

A brand new slick is only good for 20 laps before you start to spin the thing up a lot.  Superbike races are 28 laps generally and tire management was key.  I had a huge amount of seat time on mine this year and the learning curve was hugely steep.  However, I finally have the thing working well and it is a blast to wheelie out of every turn at Gingerman.  However, Jesse out ran us all on his 600 and we were getting worn out trying to handle a 1000 on that track.

A 1000 will cost tons more to race and greatly increases the "Oh crap" factor in your pants.

I raced an SV650 a few times last year in some team challenges and had an absolute blast on it.  You could race that for less than 1/2 the cost of a 1000

Before I even get started, let me say that this is meant as friendly helpful advice, and not an insult to a beginner.  I've owned 8 racebikes since I started.  With luck, I will pick up my eighth regional championship this weekend at Gateway.  I have also finished as high as fifth at the Daytona Race of Champions.
That said, I'm only a good rider.  Some in our region have talent that makes me want to go home.  Then there are the pros...  I do have five years of racing experience though, so I say this with complete confidence.

DON'T START ON A 1000 GSXR!!!!!

I currently run a 2002 GSXR750.  The bike is quite intimidating to ride in the confines of a racetrack.  I have at times jumped on a friend's 600 and done better lap times.  The 750 requires that you spin and slide the rear out of every corner to go quickly.  Tenative is slow, overexuberant is violent, expensive and painful.  Even a great rider who can be fast without crashing will burn tires like smoking cigarettes.  20 in a pack?  Two packs, please.

Now imagine the wheelspin of a GSXR1000 compared to my 750.  A beginning racer just can't afford the tires to keep one on the track.  Plus that, a 1000 or 750 seems to be actively trying to kill you at all times.  A 600 is more of a lurker.  It waits until you screw up before it tries to kill you.  Lightweight bikes are like loving dogs.  All they want to do is play!  With their rolling tounges, wagging tails and sparkling eyes, you almost die of shock when the cur turns on you and goes for your throat.

Think of this another way.  If you race, you will crash.  If you learn Kung Fu, you will be thrown to the floor.  An evil teacher will beat and hurt you every time until your spirit breaks and you go home. (This would be a GSXR1000)  A kind master will allow you small victories and praise you.  (This would be an SV650.)  Big bikes will hurt your body and wallet until riding them becomes an excersize in fear management.  Don't get in over your head.  Start smaller.  If you are one of the talented few who can really use a GSXR1000 for all it's worth on a roadracing track, your day to prove that will come eventually.  Just don't snuff yourself right at the beginning.  
I'll be at Gateway, by the red Chi-Town Hustlers trailer.  I run expert # 333.  Stop by if you want to talk.  Super Dave may not make it, because he destroyed his Yamaha last weekend.

Or you can race a 250 GP bike and get the best of both worlds. It's light and forgiving at a slow learning pace but will try to kill you if ridden in anger. I started racing on a TZ250 last year and don't regret it one bit. But speaking of quitting.. I almost quit this year after dumping 18 big ones down on a new bike due to problems at home. Sometimes people quit due to circumstances that are out of their control. You can have the funds and have the desire to race but if things aren't right in other areas.. racing quickly becomes unimportant.

As far as starting out on a 1000. I would never do it. I wouldn't even want to ride one now. I go by a strict rule. I don't ever want to race a bike that's heavier than me because I'm a puss.

QuoteBack on track

First, thanks for all the good words while I was away.  And even from guys that haven't came to my school.... 8)  ...and riders that I want to help more...

Glad to hear that you are ok Dave. Are you going to go to Gateway for that "ice cream?" Or are you not going to make it?

Mark - we need to find SD a battery box  :) :)

Hmmm...I guess I can chime in here.

I race Sv's normally.  have done some 600 seat time. (R6 - destroyed twice, the third time was the frame breaker.)  I have a GSXR750 racebike, and a GSXR1000 streetride.  

I've done fairly well in CCS racing.  I'm not the fastest guy on the track...but I'm also not a rolling chicane.

That being said....the GSXR750 is a handful to ride.  The 1000 makes me want diapers.  I have thus far refused to even contemplete racing it.  

As for quitting racing....if you aren't getting what you need out of it....time to move on.  Some can't handle the wrecks, or the cost, or the time commitment.  Some don't like losing, or realizing that they will never be better than mediocre.  Sometimes it's the injuries or the homelife.

That being said.  I've seen some incredibly slow racers out there.  They are stable and keep trying to learn to go faster.  Yeah...they are are lappers...and you see them weekend after weekend.  And yeah....folks bitch about them being slow.  But if you don't have anybody to ever pass...then it's called riding alone.  To me that sucks.  :-)

Wow, this thread has gone much further than I could have hoped.  Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences and insights.   8)

You have given me a much clearer picture of what sacrifices, setbacks, and frustrations come from this sport.  But as they say no great accomplishment comes without great work and great risk.  

The discussion in here has also affirmed my view of the rewards of the sport.  Every race I attend, every person I meet, confirms my belief that the people in the racing community are truly a great bunch.  I can't wait to see you on the track next year.

251am: Listen to the people trying to assist you here.  They are only trying to help.  A lot of pain in life can be avoided by taking into consideration the honest advice of those who have been down the same road you are embarking on.  Some people pay a lot of money for the help you can get from the people on this board.

Now before it gets too deep in here I'll say I plan on beating everyone next year by at least 10 seconds and expect I will win the GTU races with my SV on my second weekend.  Now if I don't do this I'll have to be horribly disappointed and blame it on all of you for unfairly passing me at a high rate of speed.  :o ;) ;D

QuoteNow before it gets too deep in here I'll say I plan on beating everyone next year by at least 10 seconds and expect I will win the GTU races with my SV on my second weekend.  Now if I don't do this I'll have to be horribly disappointed and blame it on all of you for unfairly passing me at a high rate of speed.  :o ;) ;D

Will that be 10 seconds ahead of the leaders that are lapping you for the 2nd or 3rd time?  ;D LOL

heh.  I think 3rd myself.  At least until I start getting better.

realistically I just want to make sure I am not one of the guys crashing out of my licencing school.  Now that would suck.  :-[

I just want to see how good I can get next year.  If I win something, great.  If not, then at least I had a good time.  Now if I crash and break myself I'll have to get mad, heal, and do it all again.

I can't tell you why new racers quit.  You'd have to speak to a new racer who quit to really know.  I CAN tell you why I don't quit:

1.  I'm challenging myself every time I get on my bike.
2.  I'm challenging the track every time I get on my bike.
3.  I'm challenging my friends every race.
4.  I'm challenging my "enemies" every race.
5.  I know who my friends are because they share on a weekend with no questions.
6.  I walk around and meet new people every race weekend.
7.  On monday morning when people say "what did you do this weekend", I smile.

R/Rob
CCS Amateur #114
Sponsors: Dade Behring (NASDAQ: DADE), Rolane Diagnostics, Prieto Racing, Vortex, Pirelli, GMD Computrack

QuoteMark - we need to find SD a battery box  :) :)

I am so the way wrong person to find SD a battery box. Unless one for a Buell will fit!? ;D What do you think? lol

LOL!  If I use the Buell battery tray, won't I have to use a group 27 battery?

I don't see a way for me to get my bike together.  I think time is the biggest issue for me.  I just don't have enough even if I had the parts in my hands.  Still exploring options though.

When the going gets tough -- the wannabe's go shopping.

QuoteLOL!  If I use the Buell battery tray, won't I have to use a group 27 battery?

Sounds about right! lol ;D

 RC51, TL1000, any 996, and of course, ohhh my Gawaad Archie, the GSXR 1000; sell your 250/500/600/650s to buy one of these great liter class bikes. This way we can all stand at the tire trailer together and talk about who has crashed the most.  ;D THAT'S why new racers quit; they were talked into buying REALLY slooowwwww machines!! ;)  

Slow is only in the eye of the person that doesn't look at lap times.

I can come up with a name of a rider that did 1:15.1 at Blackhawk on his SV650.  I'd bet that it would take you about two to three years to get to that speed on a GSXR1000.

The corner is where a road racer spends his time.  An SV is able to enter at a faster speed and usually carry more mid-corner speed.  1000?  Well, I've got a lot of them that get in my way on my 600.  Get by, and I'm gone.  

Even at Daytona, the fast superbike time is only a few seconds ahead of the 600 times, which don't have the HP, slicks, full blown works suspension, etc. etc.

QuoteRC51, TL1000, any 996, and of course, ohhh my Gawaad Archie, the GSXR 1000; sell your 250/500/600/650s to buy one of these great liter class bikes. This way we can all stand at the tire trailer together and talk about who has crashed the most.  ;D THAT'S why new racers quit; they were talked into buying REALLY slooowwwww machines!! ;)  

Uh, Dave?  I suspect that he was kidding...

shhh....I know..... ::)

 :-X   OK, I'm done here, gotta go follow that MW cage match between SuperDave and Garthanon. Dave, your bizzare persistance to cure me of my GSX-R has me wondering about Vision Sports. Do you have a website where I can further investigate your insanity? Let me guess, were you a Packer fan back in the days of Dickey/Coffman/Ivory as well? Banging our heads against the same wall Sunday after Sunday expecting different results? Ughhh... Good luck in your cage match.    

Packers fan?  Sorry, I'm from a different state all together, so I follow a different college team.  I do like watching a good football game though.

I'm not going to cure anyone of anything.  Sorry.  You've got to make that decision.  Give me credit for being consistent.  8)

Website, if you missed in under my avatar and in my signature...

http://www.team-visionsports.com

QuoteBanging our heads against the same wall Sunday after Sunday expecting different results?

And that's what most people do in racing...  That's a quote that I use.  

QuoteDave, your bizzare persistance to cure me of my GSX-R has me wondering about Vision Sports.

Bizzare? Didn't mnay people here agree with him? Does that make us all bizarre?

Why are you so hard pressed to keep the 1000? We won't think you're a dork if you ride an SV, I promise!  ;)  I don't think anyone is laughing at Jessie, Brendan, or Ed Key. They all race or raced SVs

Can you afford the tires for the GSXR? What will it hurt to ride an SV, or even 600? If you're in it for the feeling of acceleration alone, then you should probably be on a drag strip. What will you prove by sticking with teh 1000? That you can only enter 3 classes and chew up a set of tires within that time? We all know that already.

Wondering about Visionsports? If you think LCR School was similar to mentoring, you're missing out on a lot. VRS taught me a LOT and REALLY brought down my times. Thanx SD!

.

QuotePackers fan?  Sorry, I'm from a different state all together, so I follow a different college team.  I do like watching a good football game though.

Are you from Omaha?  You're not a Cornholer fan are you?!   :-/

QuoteAre you from Omaha?

Yeah, lived in Omaha for twenty-five years.  I like the Huskers more now that I'm away.  I don't get riled up or anything.  But for any team to be that good for so long...and to have more College All-Americans, walk ons, etc.  The reality is the UN system does a pretty good job.  

And, if you travel alot, you can always find someone with a Husker perseronalized license plate on a "foreign" plate.  It is kind of funny.

Rember...the NFL came to Omaha (there's lots of money there...that Buffet guy and some others...) to see about putting a team there.  After all the research was done, an NFL team just couldn't compete against Lincoln's college team.  That is reality.  Nebraska is just a bit different place than others.  Not in a bad way, but they might get razzed for it.  Guess it's just kind of like keeping a good secret...

Let's talk about my house taxes here in Wisconsin, which is supposed to have so many resources compared to other states...  How about the cost of the house?
 :o

QuoteWondering about Visionsports? If you think LCR School was similar to mentoring, you're missing out on a lot. VRS taught me a LOT and REALLY brought down my times. Thanx SD!

Hey, thanks, Nate!

Ok, here's the reality of my early racing career.  I was young and kind of shy when I started.  Thought I knew everything, so I probably wouldn't have listened to someone like me either.  Then again, there wasn't the internet, there wasn't the proliferation of track days and schools.  You raced by doing it and that was how I learned.  Later, I worked with one of the top privateer AMA Superbike riders.  I learned a lot by watching.

I think obstinance kept me involved for all this time.  Did almost everything that I wanted to do, but I felt that I could help racers too...that's where the school came in.

Can I help everyone?  No, because the person has to make the decision and go find the money and time to do it.  I know it's hard, but that's the way it is.  I don't know if I could have found the time or money to do my school myself.  Would I have learned something?  Yeah, I could have saved a lot of money.

Back to bikes...I started racing in 1987 on a GSXR750...my first bike ever.  Did two races, then started racing a GSXR1100 Superbike with a team of guys that I knew.  Bought an RZ350 race bike from some guys in St Louis that I knew, and then I really learned how to ride better.  Migrated to a GSXR600 for 1988 (but they ended up re-doing the bike and it became the Katana 600....what a let down).  Learned a lot there.  And the rest....

 Wow, tough crowd. Strap on a real motor you pussy.(You girls are so easy.) ;D  

QuoteWow, tough crowd. Strap on a real motor you pussy.(You girls are so easy.) ;D  

I think they are trying to keep you from being a pavement magnet!

QuoteWondering about Visionsports? If you think LCR School was similar to mentoring, you're missing out on a lot. VRS taught me a LOT and REALLY brought down my times. Thanx SD!

.

Nate, did you attend any LCR schools beside the licensing clinic?

How often did you ask any LCR instructors for help after you took the licensing clinic?

No, I did not. I should have mentioned that. My point was that the MAIN focus of the Licensing clinic was to get you safe on the track, more so than mentoring you all the way.

I did not ask for help, and I'm sure you would have given it had I done so. But, the focus of the licensing clinic IS VERY different than that of VRS. Not to say the school doesnt do it's job, or that the other LCR schools wouldn't do something similar to VRS, but I believe the guy with the 1000 said he only took the licensing clinic, and when you compare just that to basic VRS, its a big difference.

 Gosh Nate, you sure do know a lot about a person you have never met. The "bizzare" comment to Dave was an attempt at levity. Go down to the mall, find the bookstore, and purchase a dictionary. Look up levity. I have nothing against anyone as a result of the machine(s) that they choose to ride or race. I have track time on a CR500R, ZX6R, RC51, SV650, and an R1100. They are all great fun to ride on the track. What's the big deal if I would like to try something else? What is the need for complete strangers to tell other people what to ride? Why all the "I know more about racing so check out the size of my brain..." bullshit ? To everyone concerned about my safety- thank you for your concern. To everyone who needs to control another being with all their goddamned knowledge-get a dog!!! ;D Have a good week and happy laps to all the Daytonars.

QuoteNo, I did not. I should have mentioned that. My point was that the MAIN focus of the Licensing clinic was to get you safe on the track, more so than mentoring you all the way.

Yes, that is the main focus. Mentoring takes place after the school is over. That is why we try to emphasize that any student can take advantage of our combined knowledge base for the remainder of their career. I have always viewed mentoring as the relationship outside the class.

QuoteI did not ask for help, and I'm sure you would have given it had I done so. But, the focus of the licensing clinic IS VERY different than that of VRS. Not to say the school doesnt do it's job, or that the other LCR schools wouldn't do something similar to VRS, but I believe the guy with the 1000 said he only took the licensing clinic, and when you compare just that to basic VRS, its a big difference.

Yes there is a difference, this was not clear at all in your original post. Thank you for clarifying it.

LCR does offer advanced riding schools that emphasize riding techniques to make one a safer, faster rider.

QuoteWhy all the "I know more about racing so check out the size of my brain..." bullshit ? To everyone concerned about my safety- thank you for your concern.

Those who have been around racing for awhile have seen or made many mistakes.  Starting on a really big bike has been a mistake for virtually everyone who's tried it.
GSXR1000 = 10K  Riding gear = 2K  Tires $400-set  Hospital bills?  Unlimited potential.
The title of this thread is "Why do so many new racers quit."  One of the main reasons is that many start with a bike unsuitable for their experience or budget.  A number of experienced racers have taken the time and thought process to try to explain that to you.  You seem intent on racing an Unlimited Class bike, so good luck to you.
Don't confuse the genuine attempts of kind, careing people to help another with attempts to control your mind.  Not to be impolite, but your attitude would suggest that you already know more than any of us already, so I'm wondering why you asked your question in the first place?
On another note, you've already managed to insult most of the Midwest brain trust in the course of this thread.  Perhaps it would be wise to quit while you're behind...

QuoteDon't confuse the genuine attempts of kind, careing people to help another with attempts to control your mind.  Not to be impolite, but your attitude would suggest that you already know more than any of us already, so I'm wondering why you asked your question in the first place?
On another note, you've already managed to insult most of the Midwest brain trust in the course of this thread.  Perhaps it would be wise to quit while you're behind...

I couldn't have said it better my self Chris! Enough said!

QuoteGosh Nate, you sure do know a lot about a person you have never met....I have track time on a CR500R, ZX6R, RC51, SV650, and an R1100. They are all great fun to ride on the track...."I know more about racing so check out the size of my brain..."

I suppose we just all enjoy you too much....

Ya know, you made it pretty apparent that you just got your racing license...

QuoteI just got my license in June at BHF on our BMW.

That certainly doesn't make you too much of an expert on this subject.  Experience has to be something that we take into consideration, as you had to when you took the Learning Curves' school.

Can't find you in any results, 251am.  If you've got some reason for us to think otherwise, put 'em up.

And don't bag on Nate.  I think Nate's a good guy, and pretty knowledgeable.  Certainly works hard on his education, doesn't let a classroom get in his way of learning, works on his own business, and he races.

You have any more "cute" reponses for us, or would you like to play nice with everyone?  
 8)

And another aspect is after you do a VRS school, you become one of Dave's kids, and you can call him any time and he will help you (even if you're a grumpy old northeasterner). I don't think you'll find a better group of people willing to help than the NC group. I only wished I lived closer.... they are truly some of the best. BIG, BIG difference in attitude from my local W**A race experience. I know more people from 1 race at BHF than I do at my local track.
Take a deep breath and try not to let this board turn into a W**A BBS. It's getting pretty disgusting over there.

QuoteTake a deep breath and try not to let this board turn into a W**A BBS. It's getting pretty disgusting over there.

That's true.  Definately not work safe.   :-/

Dawn   :)

QuoteI only wished I lived closer.... they are truly some of the best. BIG, BIG difference in attitude from my local W**A race experience. I know more people from 1 race at BHF than I do at my local track.

And we luv yew, man!  Planning on coming back to play with us at least once next year?

You better believe it! I bought a bigger trailer and I'm gonna' bring all my bikes next year. Darn F40 rules! HW twins this time, too. Is it spring yet? We had snow here last week. What's up with that?

QuoteYou better believe it! I bought a bigger trailer and I'm gonna' bring all my bikes next year. Darn F40 rules! HW twins this time, too. Is it spring yet? We had snow here last week. What's up with that?

Doug,

Are you planning to hit VIR again next Spring for the ROGUE days?  If you do, don't give Dutchie that damn 954 to play with again!   ;D

 Why yes, Dave , I do have something "cute" to say that you in particular will enjoy. Using your very own straight line logic pertaining to machine choice vs. safety, tire costs, and crashing would mean that you yourself will be giving up the R6 and the SV to run in the LW stuff right? Was it your R6 that you wadded up and ended your season with? The R6 MUST be too much for a guy like you to handle-you should be running a GP 250 or 500!! What kind of foolish and stupid choice have you made Dave? Goodness, you would think a seasoned racer AND instructor like your self would know his limitations. So, you have sold the 600 and the 650 for some lightweight machienery.

  This is your very own logic used against you Dave. Yours, not mine. Alot of those words like stupid and foolish are yours as well. You have judged your very own self. BTW, as far as bagging on Nate is concerned, I'll rebutt any critics if, how, and where I choose. Get a dog. Go ahead, throw out some more bait.

          

QuoteWhy yes, Dave , I do have something "cute" to say that you in particular will enjoy.           

Wow.  You'd better shop carefully and bring everything you need when you come to the track.  I don't forsee you being able to borrow so much as a zip tie.
You know, racing is a big community of folks who all look out for each other.  Parts, supplies, labor, advice, entire motorcycles, money, food and beer are freely loaned back and forth at every event.  This family atmosphere is what makes racing fun whether you win or lose.
Your exchanges during this thread have become pretty hostile, and at this point you're not earning many friends.  Knowing everyone in this group as well as I do, I'm sure that we would all be willing to write this whole thing off as a new guy feeling defensive in an unfamilier situation and lashing out.  It doesn't have to be you against the world, but it's heading that way.  
So what do you think, buddy?  Shall we all stop bashing on each other?  This is a chance to let it all go and start fresh.  Interested?

DAVE...  Let the man make a decision...  Down Boy!  Down!

I have to chime in on this one.  

251am his crash actually proves his point.  If a seasoned racer with years of experience and tons of skill will still wad an R6 from time to time how well do you think a racing noob is going to handle GXSR1000?

The advice you have seen here was given by those who have been down the same road as you are starting on.  If you choose to disregard this advice then fine, but at least try to be respectful to those who have already traveled your path.  Its more than you have done so far.  

Buy whatever you want to race.  Its your money you are spending.  The choice is ultimately yours.

I am new and am starting on an SV based on the advice of people here and at the track. I will probably add on a 600 for fun when I know I can handle it.  It will be interesting to see which one of us is still racing in 5 years.

251am talks pretty big for a person who has never entered a race.  But he doesn't have the balls to sign his name on his posts   ::).

He's just an instigator.  Ignore him, he'll go away.

Dawn

Is this a threadjack?  ::)
I started out on a CBR954 (and crashed) then a RVT1000 (and crashed) and then a SV (and crashed). I'm thinking there's a pattern here, but it looks like the bike doesn't matter. I suck!
Yes TB, VIR is a must! And no 954 for Dutchie... a moped is in the works.

Quote251am his crash actually proves his point.  If a seasoned racer with years of experience and tons of skill will still wad an R6 from time to time how well do you think a racing noob is going to handle GXSR1000?

Of course Dave WAS LEADING an EXPERT race IN THE RAIN when he crashed...
For the record, pro racers pay Dave to go to AMA events and mentor them.  Would that be because he is a shmuck?  I don't think so!

Quote... will be giving up the R6 and the SV to run in the LW stuff right?  So, you have sold the 600 and the 650 for some lightweight machienery.  

 BTW, as far as bagging on Nate is concerned, I'll rebutt any critics if, how, and where I choose. Get a dog. Go ahead, throw out some more bait.

Sorry, don't have a dog.  I think we've got you to pick up the scraps.  

Again, Nate's a good guy.  I'll leave it there.

As for selling my SV....

Um, tell you what, I'll meet you somewhere, I'll give it to you for the 2004 season to run, and we'll see how you do on it.  After all it sounds like you know a lot about my SV...

And we're still looking for your race results.

QuoteAnother fine day to be a moto racer

"Noob" would be a noun that describes someone that has raced, but if one hasn't, well, then one would have to do that yet...I think that changes everything to "wanna be"...
 ???

Wow.   :o

It's like a junior college quarterback telling Brett Favre he doesn't know his arse from his elbow...

QuoteWow.   :o

It's like a junior college quarterback telling Brett Favre he doesn't know his arse from his elbow...

Whaa Haaa Haaaa Haaaaa!!!!!!!!!

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Why do I have this sudden compelling urge to take a downgrade back to amateur and go race the unlimited classes next year? ;D ;)

   The very first posting for this thread I put up was a neutral opinion response for MadXX's question. Immediately Dave Rosno picks something out of that post, a GSXR 1000, and calls me stupid. That would be threadjacking and flaming all in one post. Stating your opinion is one matter, sharing knowledge is great, calling complete strangers names? Come on. You expect someone with any backbone to sit back for a complete stranger to call them stupid.  
  Do you see other instructors treating this board like their very own Dear Abby board, obsessively running around answering posts, getting into pissing matches? No. Wow, now that's leadership.
  I never claimed to be an expert on road racing. I claim to know my limitations, my bikes, and how to handle them. I will not tell complete strangers what kind of machine to ride, race, or enjoy without having an idea of what this person's background is. That is their business until they ask for my opinion. I certainly will not be telling other people what to ride when I am having season ending crashes.
   I do not need to know the circumstances of Dave's situation as he wadded his bike. I'm using Dave's logic. complete stranger= name calling(stupid,noob, wannabe)+insults+baiting+judging= Dave's formula for sucess?  
  Yeah, the track is one big community helping each other out when we need it. It's a  great challenge that's a lot of fun. Wanna be friends? Sure, I'll call it a close. Put it to bed.                                        

Quote251am talks pretty big for a person who has never entered a race.  But he doesn't have the balls to sign his name on his posts   ::).

He's just an instigator.  Ignore him, he'll go away.

Dawn

Good point Dawn! Those of us with nothing to hide have our names, e-mail addresses, plate number, and regon listed on the bottom of our posts. What about you 251am? Want to let us know who you are? Come to the MW regon and find out what your made of! You talk the talk... wanna try to walk the walk? Mark Bernard...  MW Am391, Kegels race team.

QuoteWhy do I have this sudden compelling urge to take a downgrade back to amateur and go race the unlimited classes next year?

Wanta borrow my 954? You know I'll do it, too, doncha?

 Hmm, a BMW, at BHF in June, #251. How much more anonymous could I be? ::) I know there's a lot BMWs that run on a CCS weekend. Dave knows who I am and where I live. You folks gonna jump on this wagon too??!! Are those yellow plates for ams or eatin chicken? The fun is back in dysfunctional. I LOVE you guys.
Bike; '96 R1100GS w/51k miles, 630 lbs. wet, about 75 rwhp. Tires; Metzeler Tourance dual sports w/ 10k + touring miles. Results; Am SuperTwins 8th out of 11. ( Just noticed a Nate R finished 9th?) Is that right? First ever road race was a blast. Second race in Am MW SuperSport 29th of 32, got lapped TWICE by majority of field. Only guy not running an inline 4 600, yeah I've been trying to hide. I am a noob, a newbie, a wannabe. Come on down to the ams and have some fun K3. Speaking of fun Dave, there is a big moto party in your neighborhood next weekend, interested?  

lets all play nice because the Cubs are going to the World Series!

 7 251 BMW 108 TODD ERICKSON, JANESVILLE, WI.  

OK, I know who you are. You rode that BMW well. I still feel the GSXR1000 is a long way off from a good idea. But, that's my opinion.

Yes, that was me in 9th. That was my 4th event on track EVER, and you had me in the turns at that point. The next weekend I did, I took VRS, and now would probably have been able to match you in the turns that weekend if I could go back in time.  :D

Why didn't you race more this year, out of curiousity?

SD: Thanx for the compliments  ;D (blushing slightly ;))

Quotelets all play nice because the Cubs are going to the World Series!

Woo hoo! Go Cubbies go!!!  ;)

Quote  The very first posting for this thread I put up was a neutral opinion response for MadXX's question. Immediately Dave Rosno picks something out of that post, a GSXR 1000, and calls me stupid.                             

I guess you would be talking about posts 44, 45 and 46 of this thread.  I went back and re-read them.  Nowhere was the word stupid used.  Dave said that a GSXR1000 was a really bad choice for a racebike, especially for a beginner.  Having been told that your beloved GSXR 1000 was a "really bad choice," you went balistic and began flaming Dave, his school, "old codgers with opinions," ect.  None of this is a flame, it is a statment of the facts.  Apparently, you were so offended by the words "really bad choice," (especially for a "beginner") that you decided to start a flame war.
I tossed you a rope, and you promptly hung yourself with it.  Obviously, you'd rather engage in a war of words than take a moment to realize that it was YOU looking for a fight in the first place!  That's pretty stupid.  (Oh, there it is!  I called you stupid!  Is it time to come firebomb my house?)  
I know how to deal with guys like you.  The worst thing, the one thing that a guy like you JUST CAN'T STAND, is to be ignored.  Go re-read MY posts throughout this thread.  They started out very nice, didn't they?  Trying to help, wasn't I?  Well, you've changed my attitude.  Now I'm just an "Old codger" telling you to "Go away."  Which I imagine you'll do if we all just ignore you.

QuoteWow.  You'd better shop carefully and bring everything you need when you come to the track.  I don't forsee you being able to borrow so much as a zip tie.

LOL! That was a great statement Chris...! I re-read the posts too and your right. He said "bad choice" not "stupid". If this guy wants to race his GSX R.... then thats his choice. Obiousley he dosent want to hear what advice has been given to him. So let him wad it up! He sounds like a guy that has to learn from "experiance" rather than listen to racers that have alot more insight and experiance riding the GSX R. But what do I know.... after all, I'm an "old coddler" riding on a Buell!  8)

QuoteImmediately Dave Rosno picks something....and calls me stupid. You expect someone with any backbone to sit back for a complete stranger to call them stupid.  

  I never claimed to be an expert on road racing. I claim to know my limitations, my bikes, and how to handle them. I will not tell complete strangers what kind of machine to ride, race, or enjoy without having an idea of what this person's background is. That is their business until they ask for my opinion...

Well, if I thought you were stupid, I would have called you that.  But I didn't, so, you are incorrect.  You're free to look at all the posts again.

Noob...Newbie...new person...by that you are a "new racer" as per your newly finished LCR school.  It is not an insult, only a fact.

Wanna be?  Well, if you're going to give racing advice, yet we still have to see a race you did...that fits the definition.  You haven't raced, but you want to.  Looks like the results are finally in.  Don't know who you are, but you claim I do.  Sorry, I meet lots of people, and work with a select few.

This was originally a post made by someone that cornerworks and might race.  Hijacked?  Don't think so.  I am able to give my feelings just like anyone else.  The board is "free", so we're able to exchange information.  I'm lucky enough that I can spend some time here, and that I know a lot of people on here.  So, we'll go back and forth with ideas, thoughts, etc.

No one is telling anyone anything.  And even if anyone did, the person would still have to execute the action.  That's called free will.  As for a 1000 relating to someone's background.  Still doesn't change my opinion:  I know racers with a more dynamic background than myself, and I still wouldn't recommend a 1000 to them either.

It's your choice.

Back to the original though...

Why do so many new racers quit...

Jim from 4&6, THE D.O.C., Stumpy's Wife, and I and others did refer to the ego problem.  It is a big problem.  

S_D, WHAT? :o You say I'm old, fat, and slow? But I thought I was the next Nicky? OK, buddy, I'm gonna' set the Guiness record for most last place finishes. No, wait, I'll just drink Guinness!  ;D  ;D

QuoteS_D, WHAT? :o You say I'm old, fat, and slow? But I thought I was the next Nicky? OK, buddy, I'm gonna' set the Guiness record for most last place finishes. No, wait, I'll just drink Guinness!  ;D  ;D

Fat chance, Doug!  ;D  Keep riding like you did at Blackhawk, and eventually you won't fall off before the checkered flag.  When that happens, I'm sure you won't be in last place.
And I'll help you drink the Guiness... ;)

  Yup, like water off our Ducs' backs, we'll let it go. Put it to bed. Play nice.
   Congatulations Nate on your first season. Didn't race the rest of the year as it took that long to put the BMW back together to streetable and sell it. Nobody sells race skins for our Duc and I'm not into fabricating 'glass pieces yet-oil catch pan for tech.. Sold the CR500 to better finance more track stuff- thought about running that some more. The 650 single is the wife's commuter and she wasn't offering it up anyway.  Did have a blast at BHF though and do remember it took a few laps to get around you. Good luck in finding your leathers. Did you find some yet and what size are you?  
   Love ya K3. Thanks for all that rope! ;D          

Well, if you'll play nice, I will be friendly. Now we can all be one big happy family.  ;D

As far as leathers, I *think* Jack's will work. (For my uncle. I'm all set with mine) If not, I will get in touch with you, 251.

Took you a few laps? Good!  :D I remember trying to hang with you after you passed me, but then I was starting to ride over my head at that time.

Thanx! I was only able to afford 4 events this year, but I'm hoping to do all of the BHFs next year, at least.

hey,
if I quit it won't be because of my ego. as all of you know, i have a pretty nice butt so i don't worry too much about how well i do on the track. but everytime that i crashed i thought a split-second about it. then,
people that i didn't know would come and help fix my stuff and i felt more compelled to do better for all of their hard work. also, i realised early that I am
a club racer, not an AMA pro or someone like that, so i'm having fun regardless. besides the coolest thing that i've done so far in life, was passing Kim
on the outside of T5 @ BHF bumping her right thigh
with my left elbow.......it doesn't get any better than that. Then saying i'm sorry afterword for getting that close..... she said "sorry i slowed-you-up" .... now
how cool is that?
priceless.
Benj. # 30.

Quote Yup, like water off our Ducs' backs, we'll let it go. Put it to bed. Play nice.
      Love ya K3. Thanks for all that rope! ;D          

Well hey!  If you're going to be pleasant about it, stop by my pit any time.  I keep lots of extra rope handy, and I'll be glad to loan you some.  I might even have some extra beer... 8)

QuoteWell hey!  If you're going to be pleasant about it, stop by my pit any time.  I keep lots of extra rope handy, and I'll be glad to loan you some.  I might even have some extra beer... 8)

And he's pretty good at fiberglass repair, too.  ;)

QuoteAnd he's pretty good at fiberglass repair, too.  ;)

I have to be, what with all those sandbaggers bump-passing me from the amateur wave... ;D ;D ;D