Motorcycle Racing Forum

Wow, big suprise that some damn laper(s) changed the outcome of the race huh?? Werent we just talking about this? Drainplug?

Think Miguel was pissed? Ben was REALLY pissed....

Funny thing is the guy that caused it was the same dumbass that ended Scott Russel's career.... Dangerous Dean Mizdal.

Say what you want, and bitch all you want, but the facts are the facts, neither one of those two guys should have been out there. The changed the outcome of the race by being on the track when there was a race going on.

Ben said that they parked it SO bad in the corner that he had the front wheel locked up 80 ft before the bike tucked the front, and that they changed lines mid corner. I guess those two backmarkers were "racing" for 56th place or whatever.

AMA really need to change the rules to 105% max. There should be no lappers period. If you cant run fast enough to not be lapped, you shoudl run in support classes and regional races until you develop. If you cant run at the pace then, take up friggin golf or something, but quit risking the lives of the guys with real talent!

Im WAY beyond pissed. That was such TOTAL BS...

QuoteThere should be no lappers period. If you cant run fast enough to not be lapped, you shoudl run in support classes and regional races until you develop. If you cant run at the pace then, take up friggin golf or something, but quit risking the lives of the guys with real talent!

Oh great, so we get to have a 6 person race series?

Ben didn't have the line going in, the lapper's couldn't have gone outside because Miquel was there.  It was a racing incident.  Ben tried a bold move and it didn't work.  IT WASN'T THE SLOWER RIDER'S FAULT.

Dawn  

There would have been 15 guys in the race. It didnt matter, there was really only one race going on, and it didnt involve the lappers.

Dawn, you are wrong. Ben was committed to that line because the lappers were in the way. He didnt want to loose touch, and they shut the door on him. This is from his mouth today.

Besides, if the slow ass lappers werent there, in the way fo the real race, there woudlnt have been a crash.

We've had this discussion before.

Ben's tire hit the guy's swingarm (in my opinion, that's not owning the line, you have to have it before the apex of the corner and Ben didn't have it).  Then the domino effect took place and unfortunately it took Miquel out too ($10.00 bucks says that Miquel was pissed at Ben for the move and not the lappers, but he probably wouldn't admit it).  If Ben said he was committed to that line, he took a chance.  Unfortunately it didn't work out.  Those guys have been racing long enough to know what traffic is like and the smart ones use it to their advantage.

It's like a game of chess, pass a lapper in a corner, you know the guy behind you has to wait.  Take a defensive line and then do the same thing at the next corner.  It's a piece of the puzzle and part of the race.

Dawn

QuoteWow, big suprise that some damn laper(s) changed the outcome of the race huh?? Werent we just talking about this? Drainplug?

AMA really need to change the rules to 105% max. There should be no lappers period. If you cant run fast enough to not be lapped, you shoudl run in support classes and regional races until you develop. If you cant run at the pace then, take up friggin golf or something, but quit risking the lives of the guys with real talent!

Im WAY beyond pissed. That was such TOTAL BS...

     I realize that you personally are mad about the lapper situation, but you should check your facts before you blow-up like that!

     The last times and positions shown scrolling across the screen right before Ben's incident are as follows for the 4 racers involved:

     #17   Duhamel   1:27.263  (3rd place)
     #155  Bostrom    1:27.746 (1st place)
     #38   Mizdal       1:31.091  (19th place)
     #49   Jacobi        1:31.531 (16th place)

     Using Duhamels' time as the fastest and Jacobis' as the slowest, Jacobi was running at 104.89% of Duhamels time.

     I have replayed the incident multiple times at the different camera angles and it is very obvious that Ben is the one riding the uncommon line here. All 3 of the other riders involved (including Duhamel) were taking an almost identical line thru that corner. Ben had plenty of time and room to move over and follow Duhamel thru that turn, but instead got greedy and made a dangerous decision to pass 3 riders at once on the inside of the slowest corner on that track while carry alot of speed.

     The way I have always understood it is that the faster rider has the responsibilty of safely passing those in front of him, whether a lapper or someone their directly fighting with.

Dawn, this isnt club racing, this is the highest form of motorcycle racing in the US, and in order to elevate it, we need to run it as professionals..

How many lappers were in the MotoGP race today? none, ever.

The whole point is that the LAPPERS shouldnt be there!

At the speeds they go, there isnt a lot of room to change mid corner ya know??? If the lappers werent out there, there wouldnt be a problem.

Miguel was PISSED, but at the friggin lappers, he has been vocal about them all year, and his comments from this weekend will be, shall we say, hot.

I have to agree. I'm a big #155 fan(and #17), but it did indeed look like Ben took a very "optimistic" line through that turn, trying to get past the lap riders as quickly as possible. It sucks, but you know what, everybody who was fighting for the lead had to get by those same riders. It's not like they intentionally blocked Bostrom and Miggy...as the old adage goes, "that racing!"

Jeff
CCS #419

Here we go with the slower riders again. I understand that there is a big speed difference,and a experiance difference. But who would come to see a race that only has 15 people in it! And thats not saying much because the top 4 to 8 people never change. There places change but the names are always the same. Remember in your licsensing class it is the rider behind that has to pass the rider in front not the other way around this isnt the roundy rounds! Even if he is a back marker.

Ya' know....

The 105% rule you propose would include the first 30 people of the race according to the lap times as posted on ussuperbike.com

01:26.044 AARON W YATES MILLEDGEVILLE, GA SUZ 1000
01:26.315 MIGUEL DUHAMEL REPENTIGNY, QC HON 1000
01:26.333 MATHEW MLADIN RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CA SUZ 1000
01:26.531 BEN D BOSTROM LAS VEGAS, NV HON 1000
01:26.562 KURTIS L ROBERTS HICKMAN, CA HON 1000
01:26.980 GIOVANNI BUSSEI TORINO, ITALY, DUC 998
01:28.584 STEVE RAPP CORONA, CA SUZ 1000
01:28.759 TOM H KIPP CHARDON, OH KAW 750
01:28.863 SHAWN M HIGBEE BIG BEND, WI SUZ 1000
01:29.138 MICHAEL F BARNES BOCA RATON, FL SUZ 1000
01:29.142 VINCENT HASKOVEC LAKE ELSINORE, CA SUZ 1000
01:29.521 ERIC C WOOD MANSFIELD, MA SUZ 750
01:29.875 JACOB L HOLDEN PUYALLUP, WA SUZ 750
01:30.224 JOHN HANER PEARLAND, TX YAM 1000
01:30.294 BRIAN STOKES KINGSTON, GA SUZ 750
01:30.672 JEREMY TOYE SAN DIEGO, CA SUZ 750
01:30.679 DEAN MIZDAL HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA SUZ 1000
01:30.734 MARCO MARTINEZ FORT LAUDERDALE, FL SUZ 1000
01:30.742 ANDREW J DEATHERAGE CLEVELAND, OH SUZ 1000
01:30.839 JOHN R JACOBI CARMEL, IN SUZ 1000
01:30.844 GEOFF MAY ALPHARETTA, GA SUZ 1000
01:30.943 CHRIS ULRICH LAKE ELSINORE, CA SUZ 1000
01:31.056 ROBERT M CHRISTMAN FORT COLLINS, CO SUZ 1000
01:31.084 REUBEN FRANKENFIELD GREENWOOD, IN SUZ 750
01:31.104 MIKE D CICCOTTO SEBASTIAN, FL SUZ 750
01:31.143 J J ROETLIN KALONA, IA SUZ 750
01:31.333 BYRON BARBOUR LITHIA SPRINGS, GA SUZ 1000
01:31.642 MICHAEL J SANCHEZ AUSTIN, TX SUZ 750
01:31.840 TOM WERTMAN PUYALLUP, WA SUZ 1000
01:32.136 SCOTT E CARPENTER RALEIGH, NC SUZ 1000
01:32.788 KEVIN HANSON CHAMPAIGN, IL

Dawn   :)

QuoteHow many lappers were in the MotoGP race today? none, ever.

Actually there was a lapper in that race, and Kenny Roberts wasn't that far from being one himself!

Unless I am mistaken lappers are actually common in MotoGP races, just not as many when you only have 19 riders in the race.

 ;D hey team nuclear123, are that blind or are you just that stupid?

Actually Bostrom crashed and took one who took out another and so on.  I was standing right there when it happened.  It wasn't the privateers fault at all.  I love Bostrom but he was going in to hot and couldn't handle it.  Happens to everyone, even the big boys.  I for one would hate to watch a race with only factory riders.  We all like to cheer on our local boys.  If it was just the factory riders, I wouldn't even bother to go.  All the riders is what makes it exciting.  Shall we take the privateers and put them back in club level?  Then everyone would be complaining that the needed to be in the AMA...If we put them back in the club level, how many races would you win?  Or if they lap you, should we then take you off the track and out of the races???  Just some thoughts....

 ;Dlets hear it for photo chick, glad to hear from someone who was there.

Funny thing is the guy that caused it was the same dumbass that ended Scott Russel's career.... Dangerous Dean Mizdal.

I wouldn't blame Russell's career end on anybody but himself . He had bike problems and instead of staying parked with his hand up he moved his bike toward the edge of the track. I think you have an e-mail from your a$$ asking you to remove your head!

QuoteI think you have an e-mail from your a$$ asking you to remove your head!

     OMG I'm LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!


     I remember seeing Russel interviewed awhile after he had recovered from his injuries and he admitted that it was all his fault for not following the rules and staying put and putting his hands up and waving them to attract attention to himself.

I was standing on the pit wall with the Ducati team when that happened, Mizdal was as far back as he could have been and if he would have lifted his head up, he wouldnt have hit him. Simple as that. He hit a STOPPED rider. Scott had moved about 2ft to the OUTSIDE of the track when mizdal hit him. Had he not moved, he would have hit him full force. Another example of a guy racing for 20th place screwing up a great race, and ending a racers career.

The friggin lappers should not have been in the race to begin with. Race to win, race for a championship. but dont be involved with the race by being a rolling chicane.

Photochick, Im glad you were there, I wasnt, but I did talk to Ben. he and damn near every other factory rider all share the same opinion... lappers suck, and have no business being in the premier class. Thats what the support classes are for.

I watched the race with a friend of mine that has won a superbike championship, and a couple of WSB ones. He said that if the slow ass out of control lappers werent in the way, battling over 20th place, then we wouldnt have seen a half million worth of HGA money written off.

I know this is a club racer board, but damn, show the factory guys some respect already. Ben had the front wheel locked up damn near straigh up and down trying to slow down for a guy that should never have been on the track. HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE. Why race for 20th? have one class set aside for guys with talent above the others. There are planty of other classes that those guys could go out and get lapped over and over in.

the AMA needs to tighten up its rules, and institute the use of a blue flag. They also need to punish or ban riders that ignore it.

Hmmm what did Eric say about it???

"I missed it right up to the point of lapped traffic, then I walked away" Eric said. "It's painful watching, although it was a really good race today until lapped traffic, just like always. The series could be so much fun to watch as a spectator, instead it's just lame. I hate it. I actually hate watching the racing"

One vote for lappers ruining it... But what would Eric know.

Dude.  Do you even race?  Or do you just b1tch about lappers?

The incident of Scott Russell was absolutely HIS OWN fault.  

I don't give a sh1t where you were sitting, until you are ON a bike, launching from the grid and fly past a guy stalled, you have no clue what you're talking about.  

When you launch, you expect the bikes in front of you to be traveling at relatively the same speed as you.  There is a hell of a lot of movement in your field of vision, and perceiving a stalled rider is very difficult, UNLESS they are standing up WAVING as they SHOULD BE.

Russell made a dumb move.  We all do.  Occassionally people pay dearly for dumb moves...

Lappers are a part of racing, plain and simple.  You don't like them?  Stay on the street...

"team nuclear"...  we know how you got that name!

No, I dont race anymore. Ive only road raced, flat tracked, speedway, snowmobil, group 3 cars, drag raced, and raced an NMRO truck, I have no idea about racing....

Lappers are a SAD part of superbike racing.

But you sound like you speak from experience as a lapper...


Team Nuclear... My temper isnt even a part of it... remember the names of the first two nukes we tested on japan?

NO LAPPERS IN SUPERBIKE Get a friggin clue. Have ONE class that isnt decided by some backmarker.

What race series doesn't have lappers? Nascar has them, CART, F1, MotoGP, WSS, etc, etc, etc.

QuoteFunny thing is the guy that caused it was the same dumbass that ended Scott Russel's career.... Dangerous Dean Mizdal

Whoa!

I have to reply to this first.

Scott stalled the bike and didn't do what he was supposed to.  

And he did the same d@mn thing in the 1989 Daytona 200.  So, consistency counts.

Credit where credit is due.

Quote    Using Duhamels' time as the fastest and Jacobis' as the slowest, Jacobi was running at 104.89% of Duhamels time.

Sweet.  That's the truth.

And I'm sure the Dean's bike has many factory parts and a support package too...

QuoteDawn, this isnt club racing, this is the highest form of motorcycle racing in the US, and in order to elevate it, we need to run it as professionals..

How many lappers were in the MotoGP race today? none, ever.

And all of those teams have a lot of support.

The AMA has a rules package that is completely unatainable by anyone except the factorys.  Give Jacobi a works set of Showa forks and about 25 more HP and I'd bet that he'd be further inside the 105%.  

The whole package would be more fun to watch and at least it would be a bit more legitimate, period.  Why don't more people watch?  The lack of competitiveness because of machinery and support, not the riders.

QuoteYa' know....

The 105% rule you propose would include the first 30 people of the race according to the lap times as posted on ussuperbike.com

01:26.044 AARON W YATES MILLEDGEVILLE, GA SUZ 1000
01:26.315 MIGUEL DUHAMEL REPENTIGNY, QC HON 1000
01:26.333 MATHEW MLADIN RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CA SUZ 1000
01:26.531 BEN D BOSTROM LAS VEGAS, NV HON 1000
01:26.562 KURTIS L ROBERTS HICKMAN, CA HON 1000
01:26.980 GIOVANNI BUSSEI TORINO, ITALY, DUC 998
01:28.584 STEVE RAPP CORONA, CA SUZ 1000
01:28.759 TOM H KIPP CHARDON, OH KAW 750
01:28.863 SHAWN M HIGBEE BIG BEND, WI SUZ 1000
01:29.138 MICHAEL F BARNES BOCA RATON, FL SUZ 1000
01:29.142 VINCENT HASKOVEC LAKE ELSINORE, CA SUZ 1000
01:29.521 ERIC C WOOD MANSFIELD, MA SUZ 750
01:29.875 JACOB L HOLDEN PUYALLUP, WA SUZ 750
01:30.224 JOHN HANER PEARLAND, TX YAM 1000
01:30.294 BRIAN STOKES KINGSTON, GA SUZ 750


Dawn   :)

I came out with the guys above at 105%

The guys below would have made a 108% cut.

01:30.672 JEREMY TOYE SAN DIEGO, CA SUZ 750
01:30.679 DEAN MIZDAL HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA SUZ 1000
01:30.734 MARCO MARTINEZ FORT LAUDERDALE, FL SUZ 1000
01:30.742 ANDREW J DEATHERAGE CLEVELAND, OH SUZ 1000
01:30.839 JOHN R JACOBI CARMEL, IN SUZ 1000
01:30.844 GEOFF MAY ALPHARETTA, GA SUZ 1000
01:30.943 CHRIS ULRICH LAKE ELSINORE, CA SUZ 1000
01:31.056 ROBERT M CHRISTMAN FORT COLLINS, CO SUZ 1000
01:31.084 REUBEN FRANKENFIELD GREENWOOD, IN SUZ 750
01:31.104 MIKE D CICCOTTO SEBASTIAN, FL SUZ 750
01:31.143 J J ROETLIN KALONA, IA SUZ 750
01:31.333 BYRON BARBOUR LITHIA SPRINGS, GA SUZ 1000
01:31.642 MICHAEL J SANCHEZ AUSTIN, TX SUZ 750
01:31.840 TOM WERTMAN PUYALLUP, WA SUZ 1000
01:32.136 SCOTT E CARPENTER RALEIGH, NC SUZ 1000
01:32.788 KEVIN HANSON CHAMPAIGN, IL


The times that the guys that fell were within the 105% while they were racing.  Bottom line is that as the traffic gets faster, it becomes harder to pass.  Go do a dirt track and try to get around when things are really equal.  Guess a race should be like speedway where you've only got a few riders.  Shorten the laps to about six too.

dave, everyone of the 108er's would win everything on a club expert weekend.

this thread, is as full of spoop as it's creator.

nuclear, take a bow. you have the honor of dumbest statement ever on this board!!  ;)

QuoteThe friggin lappers should not have been in the race to begin with. Race to win, race for a championship. but dont be involved with the race by being a rolling chicane.

Um, I think if you're sitting stopped at the first race of the year at the start of a race, you are a lapper, and you are a chicane.  No championships to be won at Daytona.  It's kind of a long season when you've been A$$ packed twice there.  

QuoteTeam Nuclear... My temper isnt even a part of it... remember the names of the first two nukes we tested on japan?

So, are you Fat Man or Little Boy?

QuoteSo, are you Fat Man or Little Boy?

that's what i was thinking.

are we the corsican brothers?
i just punched myself in the eye, did you feel it?  ;D

QuoteOne vote for lappers ruining it... But what would Eric know.

Hmmm, Eric...  Has Works bike, Works suspension, full factory development.  Put him on a supersport bike and he complains quite a bit.  Must be rough to not work on your own stuff.

Again, the rules for motorcycle development are not fair, and they are unattainable by anyone other than the factory.

I worked with Dale Quarterley.  He was a privateer that actually won an AMA Superbike race.  But, he was able to lease a bike from Muzzy.  

Regardless, when he was racing the RC30, he was down on power to the "factory" bikes...they weren't as high tech as they are now...  He wanted a set of carbs that they had.  Honda and Kehin "couldn't" sell them to him.  His only recourse would have been to claim them.  But, at that level, claiming would not put him in good favor with the manufacturers.

Seems like the claiming rules are practically non-existant now. Not to mention that any inovation that a person could do is pretty much illegal.  But the factories can have one off specials.

Fair play is a must.  This is entertainment.  It's not entertaining to anyone when the rules are so far apart.  Lappers are a result of either bike problems or the rules.  Pretty simple.

Quotei just punched myself in the eye, did you feel it?  ;D

Doh!
 ;)

kurtis got by them with no problem. miguel would have. this factory superstar ben bostrum's fault. no one else's.

QuoteI was standing on the pit wall with the Ducati team when that happened, Mizdal was as far back as he could have been and if he would have lifted his head up, he wouldnt have hit him. Simple as that. He hit a STOPPED rider. Scott had moved about 2ft to the OUTSIDE of the track when mizdal hit him. Had he not moved, he would have hit him full force. Another example of a guy racing for 20th place screwing up a great race, and ending a racers career.

You must have been paying about as much attention to that race as yesterday's. Mizdal wasn't the one who caused Scott's leg injury, there were two bikes that hit him. Scott was rolling off the right side of the grid when Dean hit him in the right side, spinning him around, but not causing Russell's injuries. The second bike hit him in the left side of his body, severely breaking his left leg and arm. Since you were there maybe you could tell us who the second rider was that hit Scott?

i wasn't right there, but i know frank. can i say?

i was in the infield, and i know.

RM

Me too.  He live's near by now.

Da, da, dah, da, do, be do...(Jeopardy sound track...)

Sure, go ahead. BTW, Dean had his head up contrary to knucklehead's accusation. Trivia question - who caused the red flag that resulted in the restart?

How was Rio? Forget Christopher, did you get me a t-shirt?

nuclear?

bueller?

moron?  

bueller?

nuclear?

moron?

QuoteSure, go ahead. BTW, Dean had his head up contrary to knucklehead's accusation. Trivia question - who caused the red flag that resulted in the restart?

How was Rio? Forget Christopher, did you get me a t-shirt?

i'm still here. sitting in an "internet" cafe. looking for some sambuca for my coffe!  ;D

Quotepegram? or ciccotto?


i'm still here. sitting in an "internet" cafe. looking for some sambuca for my coffe!  ;D

Ciccotto nailed the wall coming out of the chicane.

QuoteCiccotto nailed the wall coming out of the chicane.

i was thinking he crashed in a horseshoe.

pegram started the fire.  

he's no gobert.  ;D

Speaking of GoShow, where was he gridded in that race?

Since you're still in Brazil and we're talking about Ru$$ell, here's one of my favorite photos of him - harassing Barros:

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikesportnews.co.uk%2Fbsn.nsf%2F0%2Fd6743c8f6115896280256b9300343722%2FBody%2F0.650A%21OpenElement%26amp%3BFieldElemFormat%3Djpg&hash=1d02004255fc035c64a88eac3d84d4f3d3ba1f22)

i vividly remember russel rudely stuffing barros in the spanish GP in 95. good stuff!!

don't get me started on gobert. it makes me sad. he's still my hero, and damn if he had been on that R6 this year............ let's just say rachel hacking wouldn't of had that bonus check!

Quote

Thry this line on the waitress: Onde está meu sambucca?

you are prolly telling me to say "may i lick sambuca off your doggie?"  ;D

QuoteI have no idea about racing....

We can attest to that.  And your arguments are pretty sad and stale as well!  Scott Russell's crash was his own fault, and your whining about 105% would have included the lapper.

Think about your 105% mandate...  Exactly how many laps would you have to run at 100% to lap me at 105%??  Then tell me, how many laps are there in a super-bike race...  Doh!  Guess we have to drop that qualifying to about 103.5% to be real careful here.

QuoteLappers are a SAD part of superbike racing.

As you are a sad part of this board.  However, we still work around you.

QuoteBut you sound like you speak from experience as a lapper...

Perhaps if you were on the track you'd know wouldn't you.  Hmmm  I might just ruin your day  :-[

QuoteTeam Nuclear... My temper isnt even a part of it... remember the names of the first two nukes we tested on japan?

So again, what is it?
[a] Fat man
Little boy

QuoteNO LAPPERS IN SUPERBIKE Get a friggin clue. Have ONE class that isnt decided by some backmarker.

There is...  It's called a dyno-shoot out at your local dealer.  You know?  Where NO skill is involved?!  And the environment is totally controlled?!

Get a grip on reality man.  Your desire to have a race with no lappers equates to either:

[a] Dyno shoot-outs
Drag racing
[c] Fastest qualifying lap with only one racer on the track at a time...
[d] Playstation games...

QuoteNo, I dont race anymore. Ive only road raced, flat tracked, speedway, snowmobil, group 3 cars, drag raced, and raced an NMRO truck, I have no idea about racing....

Lappers are a SAD part of superbike racing.

But you sound like you speak from experience as a lapper...


Team Nuclear... My temper isnt even a part of it... remember the names of the first two nukes we tested on japan?

NO LAPPERS IN SUPERBIKE Get a friggin clue. Have ONE class that isnt decided by some backmarker.

Lappers are a part of every race like already mentioned.  It's like being really good at your start.  You have to be good at your start, you have to be good at getting the hole shot and you have to be good at passing.  Passing is as much part of racing as being able to go into a turn...  I'd like to know about your road racing.  Where you raced, when, etc.  Maybe they do it different where you're from.  And I was there, standing with the corner workers when it happened.

Quoteyou are prolly telling me to say "may i lick sambuca off your doggie?"  ;D

Nah, that would be "posso eu lick o sambucca fora de seu doggie?"

You know you're right, he did crash in the horsehoe... and then Yates, Hacking and Miguel got tangled up on the banking. Worm later got a stop and go penalty and then lost it in the chicane and torched the haybales. I remember the pumper fire truck that they had to use to put that one out. That race was a real meatgrinder.

it was so bad, that i left when worm caught the chicane on fire. i had a 9 hour drive home, and it was already 5:30!!

strangest pro race i'd ever been to.

Quote... and you have to be good at passing.  Passing is as much part of racing as being able to go into a turn...

Not to mention that John Jacobi probably has more experience passing people safely on a racetrack than ANYONE else that was in that race.

TN, you don't even race so what's your stake in it???

If pro's are complaining about backmarkers/ lappers maybe they need to work on passing.

And yes, there was a lapper in MotoGP this weekend and Roberts was about to be lapped.  It's part of racing.

It's funny how someone who doesn't even race is making the most noise.  I think he's a closet backmarker....com'on out man, com'on, it's OK!!!

Friggin armchair racers!!!   :P

i'd be curious of his racing resume myself.

I bet he sux..... on the track and off.  Which superstar did he say the was sleeping with anyway? :-/

QuoteI was standing on the pit wall with the Ducati team when that happened, Mizdal was as far back as he could have been and if he would have lifted his head up, he wouldnt have hit him. Simple as that. He hit a STOPPED rider. Scott had moved about 2ft to the OUTSIDE of the track when mizdal hit him. Had he not moved, he would have hit him full force. Another example of a guy racing for 20th place screwing up a great race, and ending a racers career.

The friggin lappers should not have been in the race to begin with. Race to win, race for a championship. but dont be involved with the race by being a rolling chicane.

Photochick, Im glad you were there, I wasnt, but I did talk to Ben. he and damn near every other factory rider all share the same opinion... lappers suck, and have no business being in the premier class. Thats what the support classes are for.

I watched the race with a friend of mine that has won a superbike championship, and a couple of WSB ones. He said that if the slow ass out of control lappers werent in the way, battling over 20th place, then we wouldnt have seen a half million worth of HGA money written off.

I know this is a club racer board, but damn, show the factory guys some respect already. Ben had the front wheel locked up damn near straigh up and down trying to slow down for a guy that should never have been on the track. HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE. Why race for 20th? have one class set aside for guys with talent above the others. There are planty of other classes that those guys could go out and get lapped over and over in.

the AMA needs to tighten up its rules, and institute the use of a blue flag. They also need to punish or ban riders that ignore it.

Until you can get out there and race your ass off like our local boys do just to try and get out there and race get off it... i was there and i was in the turn it happend taking pics with photo_Chick i saw it first hand as well..then i came home to watch the tape and there was no dout that Ben came in WAY to hot and tried to but a motorcycle where a bicycle would not have fit in the prossess when he relized he was in to hot he jamed on the breaks and tucked the font as a result he to out both lappers at the same time...and then sent one of the into Miguel had he gone around the outside i think there would have been another outcome... but hey...what do i know i was only standing 50ft away from it ... ;D

QuoteI bet he sux..... on the track and off.  Which superstar did he say the was sleeping with anyway? :-/

doug polen? as if.............

Gamedic, Ill be sure to tell Ben that your expertise says that he JAMMED on the brakes and caused the crash... The door got shut, and Ben was commited, so he rammed Jacobi. Miguel only had to be 25 FEET off line to pass them.


Dave, I respect your opinion, as you know, but it isnt all about the equipment to run up front, its about talent. If you have the talent, you get the equipment. Most of the time anyways. Im Fat man. 6' 275lbs. 54in chest, 38in waist. the weight and size has a LOT to do with why I dont race.... Givin up 10 hp to you lil guys right off the bat! LOL

Frank, Dean is the one that HIT scott and knocked him into the path of the other bike, who saw him and was taking evasive action. And no, I cant remember who it was. I remember the accident like it is burned into my brain. The sound still makes me want to puke.

JEf4Y,  Wow, so you are telling me that none of the riders in superbike have any talent, and if you took out the dangersquad of backmarkers that the resulting talent pool would be so shallow that it would be akin to watching a dyno shootout.

Racer960, Im PISSED that some "racer" changed the outcome of the race, Im PISSED that they put a friend in harms way be blocking the race that was going on. Im Pissed that another race was decided by someone that shouldnt have been on the track at that time. Ill be sure to tell Ben that he needs to work on his passing, Im SURE you would be willing to teach him the right way to do it...

Eric said the same thing as me... It was a great race til the lappers ruined it. Whats HIS racing resume?

I really am sorry if i pissed off any of the racers here, but put your ego in check for just one minute, and picture you are Ben, or Miguel.. Your paycheck and career depend on this race to a large extent, and your salary request for next year depends on the most recent memory in the minds of your bosses... and while looking to make it an all Honda Podium, and battle for the lead, someone gets in your way, and puts your health and saftey at risk. Maybe its just the wrong place at the wrong time, but there shouldnt BE that place in superbike or WSB or Motogp.

QuoteGamedic, Ill be sure to tell Ben that your expertise says that he JAMMED on the brakes and caused the crash... The door got shut, and Ben was commited, so he rammed Jacobi. Miguel only had to be 25 FEET off line to pass them.

you see that is where you are wrong...were you there?... i don't rememebr you saying you were..well i was...and i'm telling you..and hell you can see it clear as day on the replay...  the wreck was not cause bt the "door closing" it was cause by a LOWSIDE Ben was wrecking before he touched Jacobe

Funny , Ben says different

" "Bottom line," he said, "there's too many slower riders in AMA racing. How many races this year have been decided by slower riders? Too many. I was trying to catch Kurtis and couldn't let him go. I had a split-second to make a decision and I made one." Bostrom admitted it may have been the wrong decsion, but still felt the slower riders should share the blame in the crash. "The guy (slower rider) turned in on me. ... no blue flags, and just I could not let off through the slower riders. I'm not happy with the way it ended up.""

i can't believe i'm gonna reply but here goes.

the guy that ben RAMMED is a fantastik rider. he could smoke yours/mine/anyone's ass with ching shen tires and a rusty chain. bostrum screwed up. plain and simple. lapped riders are a fact of racing. the naked eye could not tell a difference in the two's abilities. miguel passed safely, as did roberts. ben put HIMSELF in that position. BEN made a stupid mistake, and should have said so, and this would be over. i remember watching eric bostrum getting lapped at silverstone and laughing out loud. simply because he always cries about lappers. must be a genetic thing.

ever watch gobert go around a lapper? like it's not even there, and he's NEVER made a comment about it.

nuclear, your posts makes no since, and hold no merit. if doug pole said the things you say, then he has tarnished his zen with me. i used to respect him.

now, let's see proof of your racing experience.

ROFL... DOC, this thread is dead... YOu have your opinion I have the truth...

Have a nice day

Yeah he did make a bad choice...to try and go where he would not fit... the fact is the slower riders were there and i watched ...they held heir lines... not their fault...2nd boo hoo about slower riders...if it were only factlry guys racing..not very many people wouild go watch 9 or 10 bikes race... i know i wouldn't...i'm sure lots would agree with that... but the fact is i saw it first hand and i am telling you the slower guys did nothing wrong...Ben is a "Pro" he should know by now how to pass someone

QuoteROFL... DOC, this thread is dead... YOu have your opinion I have the truth...

Have a nice day

you have nothing but a peanut brain.

glad you ran away from this one. it was the smartest thing you've done since you started it.  ;)

Yeah,.. LOL I guess I should run from guys like you...

Damn, Im gonna have to spend all day peeking around corners!

QuoteFrank, Dean is the one that HIT scott and knocked him into the path of the other bike, who saw him and was taking evasive action. And no, I cant remember who it was. I remember the accident like it is burned into my brain. The sound still makes me want to puke.

You're right, it was sickening. But your recollection of the incident is way off. Scott was gridded on the third position of the second row. When he stalled, he tried to roll the bike off of the grid to the right at an angle, but unfortunately he never made it. Mizdal struck him right when he was crossing the right lane of the grid, where everyone had been launching. Dean had no chance to avoid him. Mizdal really didn't hit Scott all that fast, he only spun him around. He really hit a glancing blow, striking the front end of Scott's bike. In fact, Dean's bike only travelled a few yards after the impact. Richie Morris, who was accelerating in the same lane ran into him. Richie had everything locked up trying to avoid Scott, but it was impossible. Had Scott remained in his grid position the incident may never have happened. Scott has always said he made a mistake and has always taken responsibility for the incident - he has never blamed either Dean or Richie.

ROFL.....

You crack me up...

Funny that most AMA pros share my opinion, but IM sure you woudl tell them they are idiots, and teach them how to ride....

Oh, wait, you DID say they were idiots....

ROFL.. Thanks man, you made me laugh so hard it hurts..

QuoteROFL.....

You crack me up...

Funny that most AMA pros share my opinion, but IM sure you woudl tell them they are idiots, and teach them how to ride....

Oh, wait, you DID say they were idiots....

ROFL.. Thanks man, you made me laugh so hard it hurts..

no, i said you are. by the way, i'm actually hanging in rio (no lie) right now with rossi, hayden, giberneau, and kenny roberts sr. were all pals you know (lying about that part, just like you) and we think you're ugly, and stupid. but, in matters of taste there can be no right and wrong.

i thought you were leaving this thread anyway?

tool.

QuoteJEf4Y,  Wow, so you are telling me that none of the riders in superbike have any talent, and if you took out the dangersquad of backmarkers that the resulting talent pool would be so shallow that it would be akin to watching a dyno shootout.

No.  That's what YOU'RE saying...  My God man, your head is as thick as your waist.

You're saying that a racer who was moving at ~104% of fast time has no business being on the track.  Remove all of them and what are you left with?  A few factory riders, which yes, would equate to watching a dyno shootout.

Funny, you found no love the last time you posed this argument either...

In any event, I'm done with it...  I actually race, and speak from experience...

QuoteUntil you can get out there and race your ass off like our local boys do just to try and get out there and race get off it... i was there and i was in the turn it happend taking pics with photo_Chick i saw it first hand as well..then i came home to watch the tape and there was no dout that Ben came in WAY to hot and tried to but a motorcycle where a bicycle would not have fit in the prossess when he relized he was in to hot he jamed on the breaks and tucked the font as a result he to out both lappers at the same time...and then sent one of the into Miguel had he gone around the outside i think there would have been another outcome... but hey...what do i know i was only standing 50ft away from it ... ;D

Like Greg said, we were 50 feet away and watching when it happened.  I didn't see you there...You're trying to comment on things you don't know anything about.  The facts are the facts.  It doesn't matter who was there when Ben crashed, whether it was Yates or Mladin, it would have had the same effect only he couldn't have blamed it on the lappers.  Lappers are a part of every race in every organization.  That's why racers learn to pass. They must do it different where you are.  I'd like to know what road racing organization you were/are with and exactly where and when you raced....

I bet he races to the fruit stand!  What friend "Ben" are you refering too?.... Ben Dover?  Go away you ignorant piece of $hit. :P

QuoteMiguel was PISSED, but at the friggin lappers, he has been vocal about them all year, and his comments from this weekend will be, shall we say, hot.

So Will, team_nuclear, Motoman, Dr. Duc or whatever alias you're currently wearing thin- have you spoken with Miguel? Here's some quotes:

"You just never expect that out of Ben," said Miguel DuHamel

"I talked to him, yeah. What am I going to do? He's Ben. He's my buddy. I can't stay mad at him. It was just bad luck and bad timing for him. The guy turned in on him and he made a mistake."

read it here: www.amasuperbike.com/2003-Sep/030922a.htm

Will, I gotta give you this- at least you are remaining out of character and haven't threatened to kick anyone's ass yet...

Quoteno, i said you are. by the way, i'm actually hanging in rio (no lie) right now with rossi, hayden, giberneau, and kenny roberts sr. were all pals you know (lying about that part, just like you) and we think you're ugly, and stupid. but, in matters of taste there can be no right and wrong.

i thought you were leaving this thread anyway?

tool.

I'm not geting in this but if u are with those guys can a brother get some autographs please?

I'm still getting over the fact that we are seeing eye to eye on something DOC...LOL ;D You gonna show up this weekend at VIR?..

The expression on Bostrom's face as he was standing by the fence with Miguel(who was furious) told me that he knew that it was his fault.

Eric thinks it sucks because he's a factory rider and that was his brother that crashed out. (Hey, I'm a fan of both the Bostrom's, but it was Ben's fault!)

And if lappers don't occur/shouldn't be allowed in motogp, somebody better tell the 2000 world champ he better pick up the pace if he wants to keep competing, considering he was almost lapped!    

Jeff
CCS #419
"Backmarker and proud of it!(well, not really.... :P)"

QuoteFunny that most AMA pros share my opinion, but IM sure you woudl tell them they are idiots, and teach them how to ride....

Out of curiosity, why do you care what a bunch of club racers think?

Or maybe it's all about name-dropping... ::)

Whata  thread.. lol


Heres my whole deal with all this BS... I express my opinion and it turns into a bunch of BS... Typical internet hero BS...

In any event...

Its much the same as the drain plug incident at VIR...

Picture its YOU, or better yet, your son or daughter thats out on track racing, and some backmarker  chops their nose off, or runs with a loose drain plug...

What feeling do you think went though Dave Bostrom's stomach as he watched Ben, or Yvon or Linnea's?? How about if the oil drain plug had fallen out at the top of the corkscrew, or going into trun one at Brainerd? Does it take an experience like Kato's to get the AMA to tighten things up? How many guys have to get injured or killed before its ok not to let everyone with a lisc race?

Lets see here.... Fontant, Sears, Laguna, RA, Brainerd, VIR, and Barber all had the outcome of the race effected by a backmarker...

So what if its you, or your kids, or your friends? How close does it have to be before it becomes ok to take the out of line view that people should only be able to race when they can race for the win in the premier class? How many guys have to get hurt to satisfy the ego's of a bunch of club racers?

I do have to say that I just love how my concern for my friends and disdain for the people that got in the way turns into a personal attack on, 1- my waist, 2 my riding, 3 - my brain, 4 - my friends, 5 the skills of Ben and Eric...

Good luck at the races this weekend to everyone, feel free to come up and discuss this as much as you like in person at Phoenix this weekend after our race day is done of course....

just saw the thread and i wonder what class to sign up for at an ama weekend

maybe fx, that is a support class right. yet yates and mladin (congrats!!)  practice and qualify for that class and spies (congrats) is a superbike lever rider so i shouldn't get in his way either.  way back at sears point i remember lappers getting bumped from fx (support class) so yates and mladin could of all things practice.  shouldn't they leave practice for their class

maybe the true support class, 600 ss,  not even close to the safest class to be in and miguel races that and will lap me also

maybe 250 gp, not anymore

my point is what is a class that i can get exposure and experience racing the tracks ama's race

sorry one other point,   give everyone that can qualify the exact same bike,  that should make speeds close to the same and a lot safer for everyone

fastest rider still wins only not by lapping the field 3 times like ppir

still waiting on team nuclear to prove what he's raced in the past..

and waiting

and waiting.  ;)

We've all pondered as to what Ben thought or what Miguel thought...has anybody asked what Kurtis' opinion is?  Not what he might tell reporters, but what was going through his mind after the race.  The way I see it, Kurtis won the race because he delt with the traffic (a skill of racing as important as traction managment or draft-passing) better than Bostrom.  Miguel was also dealing with the lap traffic well, but was taken out, which I'd call bad luck for him.  Yes, luck is part of racing, no matter how well we prep our machines and how consistantly we ride.  You get rid of other riders on the track (one source of bad "luck") and next race you'll break a chain.  The race after that you'll dye-pen and x-ray every link of your chain and guess what, a tire will de-lam...

-z.

 really am sorry if i pissed off any of the racers here, but put your ego in check for just one minute, and picture you are Ben, or Miguel.. Your paycheck and career depend on this race to a large extent, and your salary request for next year depends on the most recent memory in the minds of your bosses... and while looking to make it an all Honda Podium, and battle for the lead, someone gets in your way, and puts your health and saftey at risk. Maybe its just the wrong place at the wrong time, but there shouldnt BE that place in superbike or WSB or Motogp.  
 

Hey maybe you shpould put your ego in check , you have to be the most impressive name dropper i have ever seen. You don't race but you list names at the bottom like you have sponsors. I guess you would be called a poser then. I stand corrected you have several emails from all the names you dropped to get your nose out of their a$$.
 
 

no way is this anyone's fault but ben's. no "egos" need to be check but team nucleoid's.

ben's fault.
ben's fault.
ben's fault.

bennie boy fell in a bucket of b oobs, and came up sucking his thumb!!!

<whistling>

Doc'

FYI

4&6 was trying to quote something the Nuclear wrote.

oh.  ;D

i have no idea what you are talking about.

Quoteoh.  ;D

i have no idea what you are talking about.

Guess you found the sambucca?  ;D

grappa pally!!!

QuoteIts much the same as the drain plug incident at VIR...

Picture its YOU, or better yet, your son or daughter thats out on track racing, and some backmarker  chops their nose off, or runs with a loose drain plug...

What feeling do you think went though Dave Bostrom's stomach as he watched Ben, or Yvon or Linnea's?? How about if the oil drain plug had fallen out at the top of the corkscrew, or going into trun one at Brainerd? Does it take an experience like Kato's to get the AMA to tighten things up? How many guys have to get injured or killed before its ok not to let everyone with a lisc race?

Lets see here.... Fontant, Sears, Laguna, RA, Brainerd, VIR, and Barber all had the outcome of the race effected by a backmarker...

Ok, I'll chime in. Why not? The incident at VIR could've happened to any licensed racer. Part of that problem falls in the hands of Tech Inspection. Sure the rider / rider's crew forgot to safety wire the drain plug. But, that should've also been caught by tech. Either way, just because there was a mistake doesn't mean that rider doesn't know how to race and shouldn't make the grid.

As far as backmarkers affecting the race... it is the faster rider's responsibility to make a safe pass. It doesn't matter if they're going to be lapped or if they are in 1st place and are about to be passed. The racer making the pass is responsible for making a safe pass.  ::)

Whether you are a backmarker or a factory rider, you're going to affect the outcome of the race. That's the whole point of a race. If there weren't riders out there to affect the outcome of the race. There would be no race.  :P

about the lapped rider affecting the outcome, didn't yates completely affect the outcome of the wsbk race at laguna.  maybe the wsbk regulars should vote to get rid of the wildcard rule so they don't have to worry about one off rides screwing up their season long points battle.

This topic sure makes for some long and interesting threads.....

Dawn   ;)

Quoteabout the lapped rider affecting the outcome, didn't yates completely affect the outcome of the wsbk race at laguna.  maybe the wsbk regulars should vote to get rid of the wildcard rule so they don't have to worry about one off rides screwing up their season long points battle.

Oooooo.......


GOOD POINT...!!!!!

I'm looking for the response on that one.

Dawn   ;)

i'm looking for the response to prove when, and where he's raced a motorcycle.

Quoteabout the lapped rider affecting the outcome, didn't yates completely affect the outcome of the wsbk race at laguna.

Affected the AMA Superbike championship. EBoz was in the lead going into Laguna and 2nd after the AMA race before he was injured. That had a bigger impact on the championship than anything any "lapper" did all season.

I'd hate to jump to any conclusions, but here's some info from the amateur results archive that may shed some light on things:

#123 TRISTAN SCHOENEWALD, CAMARILLO, CA. Advanced Motion Control,Dr. Duc Motorsp

#7  RICHARD H OLIVER  AUBERRY , CA YAM 250  STICKERSOLUTIONS.COM / D SCHOENEWALD / YAMAHA / DUNLOP  

Team Oliver is Sponsored by:

The Rich Oliver Mystery School and www.richoliver.net Yamaha Motor Corp., USA
Wilson's Motorcycles
Advanced Motion Controls



If I'm not mistaken, that should be fatboy, and possibly his dad...  I wonder why he needs the stage name in this forum - his race results are pretty good.

ROFL...

Tristan is my racer, but he is of no relation... His father is one of Rich's major sponsors, as he has been to Jake, among others.... Tristans fathers company sponsors Rich and Tristan. I dont race, I build and tune the bikes. I guess Im to fat old and slow to race...

But fatboy, Im not... The team name comes from the first nukes we tested on Japan, Fatman and Littleboy. Tristan started riding when he was 12, and Ive been building his bikes ever since. Im the fatman, he's the littleboy, and the name stuck. Come see how fat I am in person at Phoenix..... Or better yet, come call me fatboy... How did this get personal... you guys crack me up!

The names at the bottom of the profile are the team sponsors that provide us with product, or money, or both.

As far as laguna goes.... Yates made a mistake that he and Eric both regret, Im sure, I know that even entering that race is regreted by Eric. In the AMA race the Lappers got in the way just like in most every other race this year... And BTW, the WSB guys were complaining about the wildcard guys, and quite loudly.

Lets see.. Who has made comments about lappers being in the way this year... Kurtis, Eric, Ben, Mat, Miguel, Jake, Hacking, Bucky, Spies, Gobert, damn near everyone that has to deal with them... But its the lappers RIGHT to get in the way... and to race...

Whatever, its a mute point in this forum, its TOTALLY lost here...

and doc, learn to read... I listed it earlier....

At least with CCS there are hardly any lappers... right?? So all you guys that can second guess Ben and outride him dont have to worry...

I know.. why not look at Bens results when he was on a ZG600.. .Oh wait.. he must have had parts that were HGA THATS why he was so fast... He always ran on the best tires, and the best equipment... ROFL...

you can ROFL all day clown. (and you have, must be quite dirty by now)

you said "roadrace speedway flattrack yada yada"

i say prove it.

liar.

your posts make no sense. and you sir, are the weakest link. if i were "your racer" tristan, i'd stay far away from you.  :-*

Yeah, I guess his results bear out my lack of biek knowledge...

What are your results so far this year clown?

haven't raced much this year, but don't worry i have, and actually won a bunch. go checck 2000 SE results if you wish.

tristan's results aren't yours, they are his. i say, you've never raced, but you think you know everything about racing. and THAT, is truly sad.

clown.

I knwo almost nothing about racing... Ive never been at a track, never worked in WSB or AMA, and never worked for anyone in racing. I dont know anyone, ride with anyone, write for magazines, instruct, nada, Hell, I cant even get my knee down, and I dont know how to build bikes... and there is no WAY that I do 50 plus track days a year.. none..

Track days are a helleva lot different than racing...

so you admit you've never raced. that's good!!

now, just STFU!!

hanging out with potheads won't get you stoned, you have to participate.

"i do trackdays, i'm a racer now!"  ::)

tool.

OK - 7 pages....

...  are we done with this topic now?

Dawn   ;)

Fatman,

The fatboy slam was unintentional - I must have been watching too many custom Harley shows on Discovery lately. However, that still doesn't give you the right to threaten acts of physical violence. Also, I still don't understand why you feel as though you need to hide behind your stage name. That doesn't seem very consistent with someone who's so willing to throw down. Those of us with nothing to hide and nothing to prove aren't afraid to use our real names, and we don't need to resort to violence when we feel an argument slipping away from our control. We also don't need to name-drop or use hearsay in order to further our poorly-formed opinions of racing etiquette and the laws of physics.

By the way, the editor for the magazine for which you write might want to watch out  - both mute and moot will pass the spell check test.

This makes 100 replys,, thats gotta be some record!

Oh yeah.. I guess Ive never raced cars, bikes, trucks, snowmobiles, mud, bicycles, gocarts, LSR or anything..

Sorry I guess I forgot that one..

Hows this, I havent raced in more than 15 years, bikes anyways....

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.azbusas.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fpopcorn.gif&hash=f2bcb855da1484719d2c19387d8afec14444f645)  (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.azbusas.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fsmiley_doublefinger.gif&hash=7baece494df4ed9d5dfabf4059a8fdc666e6d842)

This has been a fun read, thank you soooo much!!

BTW Team_nuclear123, 100 posts ain't squat.  Katanaman and Jesse Davis get that many replies just by logging on.  So I guess you lose AGAIN. :P :P

Tim, I didnt threaten you or anyone in anyway..

What I was saying was that if you come by the pits, you woudl see that my 6' 275# frame reflects the life that it has had....

I still have a washboard, its just covered in soap suds!

There sure as hell ARE a lot of HD shows on Discovery... What 5 now... Makes me want to grow a goatee and wear small sunglasses and ride a loud bike really slowly....

QuoteWow, big suprise that some damn laper(s) changed the outcome of the race huh?? Werent we just talking about this? Drainplug?

Think Miguel was pissed? Ben was REALLY pissed....

Funny thing is the guy that caused it was the same dumbass that ended Scott Russel's career.... Dangerous Dean Mizdal.

Say what you want, and bitch all you want, but the facts are the facts, neither one of those two guys should have been out there. The changed the outcome of the race by being on the track when there was a race going on.

Ben said that they parked it SO bad in the corner that he had the front wheel locked up 80 ft before the bike tucked the front, and that they changed lines mid corner. I guess those two backmarkers were "racing" for 56th place or whatever.

AMA really need to change the rules to 105% max. There should be no lappers period. If you cant run fast enough to not be lapped, you shoudl run in support classes and regional races until you develop. If you cant run at the pace then, take up friggin golf or something, but quit risking the lives of the guys with real talent!

Im WAY beyond pissed. That was such TOTAL BS...

Shut the f*^% up

I ain't gonna spend time reading your nonsense... just shut it and shut it good. If you can't do it I will tape it for ya

 ;D :P

Quoteand there is no WAY that I do 50 plus track days a year.. none..

Did he say 50 track days a year? ...are you just a lifetime squid?...or are you to scared to come race? ;D

IF YOU KNOW THESE GUYS SO GOOD WHY DONT YOU HAVE THEM COME AND TELL US HOW IT IS. YOUR SUCH GOOD BUDDIES AND EVERY THING. IM SURE THEY WOULD LOVE TO COME AND DEFEND YOUR POSITION. I KNOW IF ONE OF MY FRIENDS WERE TAKING SO MUCH FLACK ABOUT A WACKED OPINION I COME AND DEFEND THEM.  MAN I HOPE YOUR BIKES ARE AS FAST AS YOU TALK. AND THE MOTORS ARE PUT TOGETHER BETTER THE YOUR OPINIONS!!!!!!!!!!

QuoteI knwo almost nothing about racing... Ive never been at a track, never worked in WSB or AMA, and never worked for anyone in racing. I dont know anyone, ride with anyone, write for magazines, instruct, nada, Hell, I cant even get my knee down, and I dont know how to build bikes... and there is no WAY that I do 50 plus track days a year.. none..

oh gosh...

everyone on this board and their mom can do what you said, plus that some of us RACE. NOW. Not on bias ply tires and 250 singles.

Worked WSB and AMA? if you had cleaned the windshields of a team then you had worked for them. What did you do?

50 plus track days? What does that prove? I do that many track days plus I ride more sessions. Does that mean I can talk more smack than you and my opionion is more valid?

Because I instruct, ride, build bikes and RACE, NOW, on BIKES that are SIMILIAR to the bikes we are talking about.

And to show your technical ignorance you must make a comment over in the other thread.

then NO you do not know squat, and you proved it VERY well.

Please respond, I KNOW I got more time than you to "discuss" this.

Besides I type faster. And I type more. So I must know better.

QuoteDave, I respect your opinion, as you know, but it isnt all about the equipment to run up front, its about talent. If you have the talent, you get the equipment. Most of the time anyways. Im Fat man. 6' 275lbs. 54in chest, 38in waist. the weight and size has a LOT to do with why I dont race.... Givin up 10 hp to you lil guys right off the bat! LOL

Tallent can go a long way, but the availability of anything proper isn't there for someone that even has money...Attack bought Yosh's FI bodies, but Yosh won't sell the wiring or the box, right?  Took them all year to get it going, and when they did...15 more HP.  That's BS.  Instantly, Jason was on the podium, right?  Jason did not suddenly become tallented.

As for size...

Scott Gray was a really big guy.

Quarterley was a lot taller than you and still weighed in at 200.  He still won a Superbike race.

QuoteFrank, Dean is the one that HIT scott and knocked him into the path of the other bike, who saw him and was taking evasive action. And no, I cant remember who it was. I remember the accident like it is burned into my brain. The sound still makes me want to puke.

Scott still did a bone headed thing.  All of the secondary action by everyone else is...secondary.  Because a "tallented" rider makes a mistake, it doesn't make it someone elses fault when they get beaned.  And again, that was the second time Scott screwed up at Daytona.

QuoteJEf4Y,  Wow, so you are telling me that none of the riders in superbike have any talent, and if you took out the dangersquad of backmarkers that the resulting talent pool would be so shallow that it would be akin to watching a dyno shootout.

The first race occured when the second guy invented the wheel.  Still a pretty boring race.  A mere twelve to nineteen riders on a grid with only a select few with internals in the engines and suspensions that will allow them an advantage over the others.  Really always becomes several races.  I would be very boring.  That IS the state of motorcycle racing.  That's why it only costs, what, $100 to enter a superbike race...they need the entries.  I think it's ten's of thousands to enter a Winston Cup NASCAR race.  Hey, they take 30 some of the top qualifiers and they have lappers and it's rather heavily watched and marketed.  I think the winner of Dover took home about $113,000 for the win.  Barber's Superbike winner?  Bet it wasn't even $13k.

QuoteEric said the same thing as me... It was a great race til the lappers ruined it. Whats HIS racing resume?

Does it matter?

I don't see him taking his hard earned money in trying to change anything.  King Kenny had a team.  I work with people.  Complaining does nothing.  Come up with three ideas that are workable for a solution.  Be active.  How about we put the superbike race back into 600 Supersport trim?  Then Eric can complain about Kurtis again.

Just because a racer is fast...it certainly doesn't make him smart.  Eric's a nice guy and all, I like him, but, bottom line, most racers can't find their A$$ with their hands at that level.  They are paid to race...not give advice about things.

QuoteMaybe its just the wrong place at the wrong time, but there shouldnt BE that place in superbike or WSB or Motogp.

The US is, what, the second largest motorcycle market in the world?  The manfacturers have direct input and an amount of control in the market and the AMA.  Yet, their support of this "beloved sport" is what we have:  pretty poor.  So, when you get paid the bucks to ride for them, you are expected to be able to move through the riders that you are faster than.

If safety were actually a concern in their mind, they could save a lot of money by supporting more teams rather than having a tiny amount of riders in their stable.  The process would envigorate the sport with more teams on equal footing, better racing, better coverage, more excitement, more money for the people involved.  Less direct involvment for the manufacturers...what they don't want.

I've had an opportunity to spend time with Gary Fisher and Gary Nixon and some guys like that.  There is a real difference between racing "then" and racing "now".  Then, there were actually about 25 guys that could win the race.  Now, it's limited to maybe three or four.  Tallent is relative and it's not.  Mike Hailwood would have probably been a good motorcycle racer today as he was then.  But could he win races on Shawn Higbee's bike when he was racing against Mat Mladin on the Yosh Suzuki?  Probably not.  The manufacturers already know the outcomes, more or less.  And they pay big bucks to make sure that's how it works.  

QuoteHeres my whole deal with all this BS... I express my opinion and it turns into a bunch of BS... Typical internet hero BS...

In any event...

Its much the same as the drain plug incident at VIR...

Picture its YOU, or better yet, your son or daughter thats out on track racing, and some backmarker  runs with a loose drain plug...

What feeling do you think went though Dave Bostrom's stomach as he watched Ben, or Yvon or Linnea's?? How about if the oil drain plug had fallen out at the top of the corkscrew, or going into trun one at Brainerd? Does it take an experience like Kato's to get the AMA to tighten things up? How many guys have to get injured or killed before its ok not to let everyone with a lisc race?

No hero's here, really.

Reality?

What happened to AMA final tech?  Used to exist.  Might have helped, but because the manufacturers made a stink, those rules get changed.

Even then, tech didn't help Tom Kipp when the Yosh boys, a bunch of backmarkers, didn't even bother tightening the drop outs on his Superbike.  The front wheel came off heading into turn three at Brainerd.  Nice.

Mistakes by the factories are usually well hidden.  Those by mortals are usually taken, ran with, and then the people are crusified for being mortal.  

Ben made an error.  Doesn't make him a bad guy.  Doesn't make him a bad racer.  Stuff like that can happen.  I think Ben has crashed at one time before this year.  This time, it happened to take out many other riders.  

The top riders can complain all they want about lappers when the playing field is leveled a bit by the manufacturers.  

Until then, the manufacturers are to blame for the problems in AMA Superbike racing.  

Motorcycle people may not like NASCAR, but at least their is a set of attainable rules with a governing body that enforces and maintains rules.  Teams concentrate on preparation, then innovation, in an attempt to find an advantage for their tallented rider.

Mr Jacobi is pretty darn tallented.  Can we call his bike a "Superbike"?  I'd bet that maybe it has 16.5 wheels, but probably no Yosh FI system.  Might be lucky to have found a works team in Europe that was willing to sell a swingarm to him.  Forks?  Maybe he's using Showa forks off a GSXR750 since Showa and Ohlins won't sell you anything near what Yosh, Kaw, and Honda are using.

The top two to three guys in qualifying are just on.  But a majority of the guys behind are still working up to better set ups.  Even back to fortieth.  Susupension is a real key.  If no one can get what a select few can get, even if they have the money, it shouldn't be allowed.  This is Superbike racing, a production based racing series.  Not GP bikes.  NASCAR may use tubular frames, but they still have to use items that are available.  That's what makes NASCAR marketable, profitable, and fun for some people to watch....And why motorcycle road racing in the US...well, it's just kind of gay... 8)

Super Dave,

What about the claiming rules?  Shouldn't they help out the poor privateer?  Or are they limited to only certain parts?

QuoteSuper Dave,

What about the claiming rules?  Shouldn't they help out the poor privateer?  Or are they limited to only certain parts?

Doesn't that just put a burr in the factory's saddle? Wouldn't think it would be worth it to a top privateer who holds out hope for a factory ride someday.  

IMHO: I know, question was aimed at Dave.   ;D

QuoteDoesn't that just put a burr in the factory's saddle? Wouldn't think it would be worth it to a top privateer who holds out hope for a factory ride someday.  

IMHO: I know, question was aimed at Dave.   ;D

You can call me:  Mr Rosno....LOL!

Yeah, it would.  I stated before, Quarterley could have claimed the carbs off the Commonwealth Honda bikes...there were people willing to put up the money ($3500 for claim of carbs at the time, I think), and even people willing to put up $5000 to buy them.  But they wouldn't sell, and claiming wouldn't score points for Dale.

Terry Vance claimed the carbs off of the Yosh bikes (I think they were like magnesium bodied Kehin's or something) one year.  Can't remember if that was 1988 or 1989.  Might have been 1989, because I think everyone was using the second generation GSXR then.  Anyway, Vance & Hines became the Yamaha team in Road Racing.  I think that soon after the Suzuki/V&H relationship ended in Drag Racing.  The carb issue was surely some kind of mitigating factor.

Anyone remember the guy that claimed the Yosh forks a couple of years ago?  He did follow the rules.  Doesn't matter about anything else.

wow what a waist of time !! all 8 pages.
No need to comment about Ben's mistake.
Want to get rid of lappers !!  

How bout kicking out the Factories !!! They only support 6 guys anyways.  We dont watch racing to see a race with 6 guys in it do we !  Thats why barely anyone watches these things.  There's no friggen competetion!  Why not use there multi million dollar race budget and put it into the purse for the race.  4400$ for a superbike win.  WTF is that  ITS PEANUTS.  I thought this was PRO racing ?

Hey it worked for NASCAR !!!

Quote4400$ for a superbike win.  WTF is that  ITS PEANUTS.  I thought this was PRO racing ?

Hey it worked for NASCAR !!!

NASCAR has a set of rules that are attainable and enforceable.  It makes it so that it doesn't make sense for Ford, Dodge, Chevy (Pontiac) to have factory teams.  Too much talent available to say that one team will win.  So, the money needs to be spread around in the form of SUPPORT so that they can have teams running at the front.  Makes for a better series, and an actual career for the drivers, crew chiefs, crew guys, truck drivers, etc.  Some may not like NASCAR because it is cars and they are going around an oval...but look at the plan.  It worked.  Continues to.  AMA motorcycle racing hasn't done much of anything.  Just bump in the road.  Why should we even watch?

And with a $4400 purse for first...you can't even by a Suzuki SV650.  It is a joke.  That's what they should do...award the purse in the form of prizes.  20th place...Free appetizers for you and five friends at Applebee's!

QuoteYou can call me:  Mr Rosno....LOL!

How 'bout I call you Shnookums?  

Only if we can all have a group hug...

 ;)

Dave -- it was Ashmead who claimed a set of mag carbs from Honda in '88. Ashmead went on to win the '89 Daytona 200.
When Yom Kipper's front wheel came off in turn 3 at Brainard the wheel continued on and collected Dean Adams in the nutz while he was trying to photograph the crashing bike.
 
Ben Bostrom rammed Jacobi's swingarm. A novice level mistake.

I think Dean claimed he was taking pictures...  Brian J was the one taking them.  

I vaguely remember Ashmead's claim.  I think Vance may have claimed the carbs at Road America in 1988.  I was there then.  I think they had Randy Renfrow riding for them.  But I'm not sure.  I do remember that Yosh was using the previous generation bikes that year, except for the one that Yosh put Schwantz on to win the Daytona 200 in 1988.  I've heard rumors about that motor too.  Still, Schwantz was fast.  

Regardless, at least then you could claim stuff.  I think all of that is gone now.

The guy who claimed th Yosh forks a few years ago was a pretty low level privateer who came into some serious money.  I can't remember the guys name now though.  Might have been Dave something.

The rest of that story is that after the race, when he went to get them they were heavily scared, possibly bent, and the internals messed up.

Rumor has it Yosh sabotaged them.

geeeeee. where did team UNCLEAR go?  :-/

QuoteI think Dean claimed he was taking pictures...  Brian J was the one taking them.  

I vaguely remember Ashmead's claim.  I think Vance may have claimed the carbs at Road America in 1988.  I was there then.  I think they had Randy Renfrow riding for them.  But I'm not sure.  I do remember that Yosh was using the previous generation bikes that year, except for the one that Yosh put Schwantz on to win the Daytona 200 in 1988.  I've heard rumors about that motor too.  Still, Schwantz was fast.  

Regardless, at least then you could claim stuff.  I think all of that is gone now.

You can still claim the forks and shock i know...i saw it with the prices in the '03 rule book and the fuel injection
Twin cylinders $2500
Four cylinders $3500
Four cylinder carburetor assembly $3500
Fork assemblies $7500
Shock absorber assembly $2500
 and there are a few things you can claim off the superstock bike also

Just got done watching this on Speed.  Pretty evident that Bostrom should shoulder most of the responsibility with this.   As far as backmarkers are concerned GET OVER IT.  Whether you feel they should be out there or not, under the current rules they are.  Deal with it.  
PS Tell Ben to tell his little brother thanks for kicking at me in T-3 At Road America a couple years back in a practice session that he did not even take to the final grid.  Nice lisp.  As stated before they do seem to have somewhat of a incestuous relationship. :o ???

Brad,
I doubt he'll be back to this thread to respond, this is Modus Operandi for Will (team_nuclear123)- make a stupid statement, live in the dreams of famous racers, talk smack, drop names, threaten to kick someone's ass, then go away.

Anyone with a Ducati internet history would probably recognize the name Dr Duc, this was Will's former business. Will was a horrible business man, easily making Jessie Davis in this thread look like a marketing genius.
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33102

Many accused Dr Duc of not getting parts after payment, poor communication skills (no $hit!)- he never retuned emails or phone calls- basically ripping alot of customers off. I had one deal with him, it was for $200 and it went bad. This is why I'm posting this crap here. After years of reading his dribble, I'm sick of his $hit.

The sad thing is, he's a nice enough guy to talk with, has great contacts (and obviously $$ from somewhere as backing) and has the ability to wrench and plenty of knowledge. He won a few contests with his custom built Duc's that were exceptionally nice.

Here's a classic Will thread for everyone's entertainment. ;D (Will's alias is Motoman on this board). Be sure not to miss the post near the end by Jason Pridmore. You'll see that after Jason  posted, Will ran and hid...
http://www.clubdesmo.com/discus/messages/4/3486.html

Racer960, Im PISSED that some "racer" changed the outcome of the race, Im PISSED that they put a friend in harms way be blocking the race that was going on. Im Pissed that another race was decided by someone that shouldnt have been on the track at that time. Ill be sure to tell Ben that he needs to work on his passing, Im SURE you would be willing to teach him the right way to do it...  
---------------

Can you set it up???  sweet man, thanks a lot!  I can't wait...hey everybody, I'll be teaching Bostrom how to pass...NICE!!!  ::)

Say hi to N. Hayden for me, Thanks  :P

QuoteBen Bostrom rammed Jacobi's swingarm. A novice level mistake.

Hear that Fatboy? End of thread. :P

Jacobi's take on RRW:

http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=7380

Team UNCLEar is a F A G :o
Team UNCLEar is G A Y :o
Team UNCLEar is complete D U M B A S S :-/
Team UNCLEar is should have is A S S kicked for being so stupid ;D
Team UNCLEar beats off at night thinking about his superbike heros :o

LMAO

QuoteTeam UNCLEar is a F A G :o
Team UNCLEar is G A Y :o
Team UNCLEar is complete D U M B A S S :-/
Team UNCLEar is should have is A S S kicked for being so stupid ;D
Team UNCLEar beats off at night thinking about his superbike heros :o

Cmon... dont hold back, say what you really mean! ;D

My turn to chime in a little late.  I guess I've been busy since I was actually racing in that race at Barber.

First off, John Jacobi is a very good and very fast rider.  Just look at the WERA championships he has won.

Next, lets look at the Superbike grid.  There were 56 people trying to make the grid for that race.  If you look at the times in qualifying throughout the year, many times the field is well under the 112% rule.  This means several riders made the 112%, but didn't make the numbered grid.

I can tell after having raced 9 out of 11 AMA rounds this year, the factory riders are extremely talented.  Yes the bikes are much better than normal privateers, however they ride the wheels off of them.  At the same time, people make mistakes just as Ben did.  Especially in that turn, there were so many different lines that people were running that were was several ways of making a safe pass there.

I raced the WERA weekend right before the AMA weekened at Barber and did the endurance race.  You want to talk about the 112% rule  turning into a 150% rule.  Try racing around there cresting blind hills on the gas on a 1000 and coming  up on stock SV650's with 100 hp differences.  Talk about a difference in closing speeds!  However, you find ways to get around people safely and still scare the crap out of yourself.  However, they have just as much right to be out there because of the rules.

If you did away with all of the privateers, you would have around 7 factory bikes out there and factor in their own crashes and you would have 5 people racing during the race.  Wouldn't that be entertaining!

If you look at the privateer field, most of them are your fastest club level guys that routinely wax everyone at a club event and have several championships under their belt.  Give the privateers a break, they're just trying to live their dream of racing on a much smaller budget.  I can assure you, AMA racing is about 5 times more expensive, and that's being generous, than club racing.

Have you Mr. Nuclear ever raced an AMA Superbike race and have an understanding of what it takes to compete at that level?  If not, then why are you chiming in?  
  

This just off the AMASuperbike site:

Jacobi Responds
by dean adams
Wednesday, September 24, 2003
John Jacobi, who was involoved in the infamous Honda crash on Sunday at Barber Motorsports Park, sent us this e-mail ...

"I will not take any of the blame for the mishap at Barber. It is obvious on the replays that I didn't intend to turn in on Ben nor did I know he was there. My race is just as important to my team and me as the Factories and their riders. I have all the respect in the world for their riding abilities, but I should not be made out to look like the slow Incompetent rider. I have raced in enough World and National Endurances races to know all about lapped riders and yes blue flags are part of the solution. The AMA sets the criteria to be able to compete in Superbike races. Kurtis lapped up to 12th place and every rider from 12th back meets those criteria. In racing split second decisions are made and mistakes do happen. Racing also requires taking responsibility for your actions when you make a mistake."

Team Vesrah Suzuki
John Jacobi #49

Quote    I realize that you personally are mad about the lapper situation, but you should check your facts before you blow-up like that!

     The last times and positions shown scrolling across the screen right before Ben's incident are as follows for the 4 racers involved:

     #17   Duhamel   1:27.263  (3rd place)
     #155  Bostrom    1:27.746 (1st place)
     #38   Mizdal       1:31.091  (19th place)
     #49   Jacobi        1:31.531 (16th place)

     Using Duhamels' time as the fastest and Jacobis' as the slowest, Jacobi was running at 104.89% of Duhamels time.

     I have replayed the incident multiple times at the different camera angles and it is very obvious that Ben is the one riding the uncommon line here. All 3 of the other riders involved (including Duhamel) were taking an almost identical line thru that corner. Ben had plenty of time and room to move over and follow Duhamel thru that turn, but instead got greedy and made a dangerous decision to pass 3 riders at once on the inside of the slowest corner on that track while carry alot of speed.

     The way I have always understood it is that the faster rider has the responsibilty of safely passing those in front of him, whether a lapper or someone their directly fighting with.

couldnt have said it better myself...

team nuclear, you are clearly shot.

"the AMA needs to tighten up its rules, and institute the use of a blue flag"

If you want lappers taken out altogether, why would they need to use the blue flag?

allthough I see this thread has rightly died,I eas wondering if team nukesh!t saw the WSB races today,seems lowly backmarkers played a part in the results of a"world class"event

Just let it die....   PLEASE!   ;)  :D

Personally, I think he started this thread just to see how long it would get.

Dawn

P.S.  Sorry, the record still belongs to KC_124 and the Sandbagger thread.

I admit the guys in the AMA would lap me on probably lap 2!But I have 2 more years until I even meet the age requirement!I just  wanted to know why do you like lappers so much??? I was in Alabama and talked to Ben after Saturday and he was a little mad that the lappers were hitting him so hard. M y heart sunk after  I saw the crash I am a big fan o the Bostrom's. I can't remember your name but TEAMNUCLEUR doesnt know Rossi, but just for an example you'll see the Bostroms in a article with TEAMNCLEUR  being the author. They'll be riding 50's all day together!TEAMNUCLEUR doesn't know aaannnnnybody man...he introduced me to Eric,Ben,Jake,Kurtis,Miguel just to name a few. I muuust have beeen dreaming though!!!

Blue flag = there is a race going on and you are not part of it. Round of applause for CCS please I was at Firebird and hit 5 lappers on y third lap and they waved blue flags at them!!!!!

Grow up and learn how to spell...

Check your attitude at the door, it's not needed here.

QuoteI was at Firebird and hit 5 lappers on y third lap and they waved blue flags at them!!!!!

Perhaps you need lessons on how to pass.  

Dawn

QuoteI admit the guys in the AMA would lap me on probably lap 2!But I have 2 more years until I even meet the age requirement!I just  wanted to know why do you like lappers so much??? I was in Alabama and talked to Ben after Saturday and he was a little mad that the lappers were hitting him so hard. M y heart sunk after  I saw the crash I am a big fan o the Bostrom's. I can't remember your name but TEAMNUCLEUR doesnt know Rossi, but just for an example you'll see the Bostroms in a article with TEAMNCLEUR  being the author. They'll be riding 50's all day together!TEAMNUCLEUR doesn't know aaannnnnybody man...he introduced me to Eric,Ben,Jake,Kurtis,Miguel just to name a few. I muuust have beeen dreaming though!!!

LMFAO.  What a TOOL.  Blah, blah, blah......and your point is???????? 

Yes, I took the bait from the troll.

HUH! What region are you part of, come out to Thunderhill if you're in the area and teach me, seriously. Oh my bad i forgot to put the M in my..what an idiot I am!!!

Door? I don't see doors on the internet!!

Quotewhat an idiot I am!!!

You are correct sir.  Indeed you are.  :-*

HAHAHA way to pull that one around!

Doc....I was reading over one of the pages and you were bragging about results from 2000 bro, come on. I'm not trying to start anything, you are probably faster than me. Will can't work or do anyhting on bikes, thats why I am in second and soon first in Southwest and Pacific overal points and first in almost all middleweight classes. I think of my results as my dads Wills because I wouldn't be able to do it with either of them, as well as other sponsors. But everyone can do it all by themself right, has an AMA guy ever not thanked their team after winning on the podium?

Tristan,, dont waste your breath lil bro...

They cant and wont understand....

I didnt see you or I get taught any lessons at Phoenix....

I did see quite a few lappers though...

You do know that  Douglas is coming to Thill with us... and I think is gonna race.... On a bone stock bike.. THIS oughta be good...

tristan can be as fast as rossi, he's still and idiot, being tuned by an idiot.

call it "product of your environment", if you will.  ;)

ben, screwed up tossers. time to deal with it.

I can't figure out if tristen is a girl or boy?   ??? ;D

definitely a chick.  ;D

 This is a question for G 97:

Did u race AMA this year?

QuoteDoc....I was reading over one of the pages and you were bragging about results from 2000 bro, come on. I'm not trying to start anything, you are probably faster than me. Will can't work or do anyhting on bikes, thats why I am in second and soon first in Southwest and Pacific overal points and first in almost all middleweight classes. I think of my results as my dads Wills because I wouldn't be able to do it with either of them, as well as other sponsors. But everyone can do it all by themself right, has an AMA guy ever not thanked their team after winning on the podium?

ya but you have sucky PI, and the only reason you are close in the Overall points is because you race LW, MW and HW.

why don't you and teamnuclear come to daytona and I will personally team you and him a lesson or two...

oh wait, you can't take that many days off school.... my bad

Yep school and guess what i'm 14 you have to be 16 to race Daytona.

QuoteYep school and guess what i'm 14 you have to be 16 to race Daytona.

actually that kinda sucks, not allowed to have a shot at the championship. sorry to hear that. But trust me, we are not all idiots here, and no matter how much you think of teamnuclear, and no matter how much you think he helps you, there are always pars of a person that you may not want to take after. I don't know how he is around people who he may benefit from, but he sure has a rotten attitude toward anyone who is just "another person". In other words, he does not have any respect (at least not appear so) for anyone else who is racing, riding or in anyway involved in the sport.

To be honest and serious, many of the top AMA racers had to work hard to get to where they are, and before they were, they were just like us, starting out, learning and trying to get somewhere. If people are not allowed to take a path to success, then if you are not as fast as the AMA winners, you may as well quit when you are still your age. Blasting backmakers are not justified or fair, maybe one of us here will be a AMA champion one day, but we are still "slow" now. If we bar everyone who is not fast enough to win racers, then we will not have a future as a sport.

AS for nuclear, why do you want to make foes out of people who are fellow competitors. I would like you to come and call me a weekend warrior and tell me that I am worthless one day, in person, perhaps in a AMA paddock.

Maybe one day people, winners and losers, will see the two face that you are and realize you hurt the sport, the people involved in the sport, more than anything else you do.

Finally, instead of talking my a$$ off and living off names of others, I am myself, always will be, and the most pride I have, is for myself, not others who have achieved. I go out on the track and let my racing talk smack, and if I can't be the best, I will concede. Maybe anyone can figure out, even WITHOUT you, someone can still achieve and be successful, you are not integral to a winner, you are just there for the ride, and brag about it later.

Get a life, it seems that yours is just fabricated from others. I have achieved so much more as a person, the first day I loaded up my landscape trailer and went to VIR to take the race school.

Slow? I may be. Achievements and pride, you don't come close

Hey Dafan,
i'll be @ Daytona with Russ Voigt, who won't be racing, so i'll need you guys to show me around town and the track if that's cool. i'm gonna try and do team hammer and get some track time so i can at least hang with the fella's. hit me up on regular e-mail with your cell if that's cool.
xray6674@aol.com
looking forward to meeting the FL/MA/SE ...etc  guys.
gonna be crazy silly fresh........
talk atcha later brotha,
Benj. 30 MW
oh and BTW, the difference between club racers and
AMA guys is money and time!  

another question,
don't you have to be 16 to run any CCS event in the Middleweight class? why then did Janisch wait until he turned 16, who of course wins everthing in the 600s now and who also I might add is Mr. Humble pie,
a true champion...who will be AMA within the next 3 years.... period. Jesse if you read this, believe that.

just remember the little people who watched you grow...... and mature into such a bright young star......... oh, i think i'm getting a little teary eyed :'(
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Benji.

I am not sure if I can do the team hammer day, cost too much, with the rest of the trip in mind, it just more $$I rather not spend  :P we can definitely hang out and talk about the track or the town, or what not. I am coming with a daytona rookie too, so we will be hard at work for him to get up to speed. But shame you are not gonna be in my practice group... I have been racing daytona in my head for almost the whole season (being had to not race for real a few times) and hopefully I can bring some game  8)

I will email you my cell. we are getting there tues. night or wed. morning, depending on if I do the hammer day or not. thur. and sun. is hangout day, my races are only on fri/sat... woman wants to hit the beach and I wanna hit a few bars  ;D

is there anyone down there that is even numbered that i should maybe hook-up with for practice?
let me know i want to make this trip as much fun as possible. and i'll give you a shout back with my info
later,
 Benj.

Talking about all this self stuff, I always need a heling hand, like learning how to pass people, guess you didnt see the compliment towards CCS doooode. I have a license and I'm 14 so I guess you dont have to be 16. I'm off to eat some humble pie... hopefully I'll see ya'll out at Daytona next year when I'm able to race there!Have a great time outt here guys!