Motorcycle Racing Forum

I know its a dead horse 100 times over, but it just keeps on stinking.

This weekend at summit point, I had some interesting conversations with friends and fellow racers.

On Sun the sprints were cut down to 5 laps from 7 because of a lengthy cleanup in the morning. So we didn't really think about lapping people in a 5 lap sprints. So you know the surprise I got when I start seing lappers on lap 3-4. No it did not cause me to loose a race or anything of that sort, but it just seemed very dangerous.
We went up to the scoring tower to watch races, and the speed difference on the front straight was amazing. Front runners are round around 1:20's and I wouldn't be suprised 3-4 guys are running close to 2 minutes lap times.

So I ask, should we change the way we upgrade to expert? (I know its about that time of the year again). The points system obviously have times that just doesn't work right. If you consistently finish mid pack, you will have way more than enough. If you just show up at summit twice a year and do 3 races and win everyone, you can still stay AM.

Maybe for safety reasons, and other reasons, performance index should be looked at. And maybe mid-season bump-up's should be instated.

I don't know, many would say its not fair, but inexerience in the AM ranks makes the speed difference a life/death risk.

I know we can't tell newcomers to not take race schools in the fall, but when they get on the track get a feel for it, we are rushing by with 4 weekends behind us at that track and at blistering speed. It was just very unsafe. Being involved in such an incident myself this year, it hurts even more.

And I found out that a few up and comers, somewhat fasters are trying to stay AM next year. They always do. hell I did, and I paid for it.

I now wish there is no way around it, then we would all have moved up, and leave the AM races to the true new comers.

It is cool to have 2 newbie classes, maybe lw and hw races for their first and 2nd weekend, but I doubt we can fit it in the schedule. I doubt even more that we can have a new classification. So the JR system comes to mind.

Or maybe we can bump up faster, and more firm. Or take away the AM championships, or set a quota on purse/contigency winnings. Or take away AM championships. I guess it would hurt CCS's business, maybe. But it would be safer for the fast guys to move up. And right now, there is no incentive for us to, and there is no provision to make us to.

we would never run a track day and put people with that much skill difference on the track at the same time. We bump you and thats final. Not because you want to, but thats where you fit in. I think its time classifications of racers become assigned, instead of desired as well.

The current system make us want to achieve something as an AM, and people somehow get the illusion (or is it) that it is valuable. Should we put so much emphasis on our AM careers?

I have a lot of question and no real answers (sorry Dave) but it really concerned me and quite a few others, so I just like to throw it out and see what everyone thinks, maybe we can come up with something productive.

even bumping the fast am to expert, you often have combined classes. The experts start wave 1, am on wave 2. Same problem even bumping the fast am to expert right? Yes, not running combined classes would fix that problem but (and i like this) we run all our races sunday rather than sat and sunday.

QuoteAnd I found out that a few up and comers, somewhat fasters are trying to stay AM next year. They always do. hell I did, and I paid for it.

What do you mean you paid for it ?

I think that there should be a three tier system.  Loudon has one.  Doubt that we would see change.

There should be some kind of a new comer classification...could be in it for a year an a half...no championships, but points would be awarded for something.

Then a class for the guys that are gettting better or would just be happy racing for fun.

Then the freak show pro/expert class.  More money races, fewer classes.  Something that would be a bit more "premere" in nature.  Some people wouldn't want to race that, and that's fine.

QuoteI think that there should be a three tier system.  Loudon has one.  Doubt that we would see change.

There should be some kind of a new comer classification...could be in it for a year an a half...no championships, but points would be awarded for something.

Then a class for the guys that are gettting better or would just be happy racing for fun.

Then the freak show pro/expert class.  More money races, fewer classes.  Something that would be a bit more "premere" in nature.  Some people wouldn't want to race that, and that's fine.

I agree with you Dave....

QuoteI think that there should be a three tier system.  Loudon has one.  Doubt that we would see change.

There should be some kind of a new comer classification...could be in it for a year an a half...no championships, but points would be awarded for something.

Then a class for the guys that are gettting better or would just be happy racing for fun.

Then the freak show pro/expert class.  More money races, fewer classes.  Something that would be a bit more "premere" in nature.  Some people wouldn't want to race that, and that's fine.

Kinda like that with CCS to F/USA isn't it?

I paid for it dearly when I had some incidents with slower riders, their inexperience and mine caused a lot of pain and suffering, so I feel like the system could use a change or 2 or 3.

Dave I like your idea too. AM race for getting into it, less classes, less reward. Middle tier races for points, trophies and some reward for guys who are expeirenced and racing for fun, top tier races for serious experts who wants top level competition, more payout, less races. Just one more level for people in between to fit in.

It is actually kind of like that on a FUSA weekend. Sunday races attract big names, and CCS races just for the club guys. If they could structure it every weekend, change the classification system, we may see more fair competition and safer track.

I think AM and EX classes should be different, and offer different things. So the only way to get in those classes and get the rewards is to be Expert and leave the AM ranks. Right now everything is the same, and the system gives a fast AM a LOT more rewards than a mid-pack expert. So why move up. And then without a firm and effective system for moving up, people --- sandbag. We all had in our minds to do it, whatever the reason we give, a lot of us do it. The result is we endanger the newbies and ourselves.

QuoteKinda like that with CCS to F/USA isn't it?

No, the FUSA guys are still experts.  The FUSA license is just another fee to race in a class that has a purse and the "image" that it's a pro event.

If you've been racing for six years at Blackhawk on a 600, but you can't do 1:22's...you are capable enough to be "called" an expert...one who has knowledge about the sport, etc.  Being an expert isn't about speed, it's about safety...you know and understand how it all works.  

Now, that same guy surely isn't an amateur like one of my guys that comes from my school.  If he does, our six year amateur, gather it together and wins, that's what is commonly refered to as "cherry picking", right?

  

QuoteAM race for getting into it, less classes, less reward. Middle tier races for points, trophies and some reward for guys who are expeirenced and racing for fun, top tier races for serious experts who wants top level competition, more payout, less races. Just one more level for people in between to fit in.

There you go.  You had the idea...just needed some refining, right?

QuoteThere you go.  You had the idea...just needed some refining, right?

yup, thanks for helping me putting it together. Now if someone will just listen to me now :)

should have picked Kevin's brain while I was at summit point

i agree completely and whole heartedly with Dafan.
Dave,
hmnnn???????? i sense something familiar here?
Benj.

Quotei
hmnnn???????? i sense something familiar here?
Benj.

Spoken by the true amateur.

Yeah, my mind is always goin'.

CCS wants more riders, maybe something like this would attract and, more importantly, retain more road racers to the program.

 I can't say  if a new system should be put in place for new peeps like me cause i am still learning the sport.

Defan
there is a big dif in speed of the ams but some am are reckless.  I had a guy cut me off going into 5 a ffew times. but it all good. You passed( laped) me in going into the checkered flag.  I was not last by no means.

Wearing a shirt I know I am a target.  But I have gotten faster every time I hit the track.  But in race 8 turn 1 got me. I had another one of u no shirted riders in my sites to pass.  

Donny, hector, ned and u defan should have been bumped up by now. oh and # 125 I don't know his name.

You were there? I didnt know, should have came by and said hi. 125 is Ryan Patterson, another one of us Team Pro-Motion racers. He used to race motocross, and is getting more aggressive and faster by the race.

All of the names that you mentioned would have been bumped or moved by now if a new system was in place. Heck, if there was no more reward to be an AM this  year, I would have bumped to EX in the spring. Thats what I mean, I sandbagged because there was a damn good reason for me to. And no one made me move up. I did it because it was the best option and everyone comfirmed it.

So the system has to change, or the newbie is going to show up on the first weekend and get blitzed by a few guys going 3 seconds slower than top 5 expert times. And they may crash, may get hurt, may get discouraged and may not come back again. And the same 5-6 people from last year are taking all the purses, contigency and wood. Again not fair for the new guy. And the new guy is not going to know, or couldn't register way ahead in Feb. and end up starting from behind, finish in the lower order, and get discouraged...

Something needs to change, for the fast guys, for teh slower guys, for the new guys, for the safety of the guys out there, and for the growth of the sport.

Amatuer championships are like kissing your sister.  Racers should aspire to better themselves and move to the next level, to higher competition.  Wanting to stick around and win an AM championship still does not make any sense to me.  The only thing I cared about my first season was scoring enough points to turn expert.  

Who really benefits from blazing fast amatuers riding around the track at a pace that would put them comfortably in the expert pack?  I don't think fast or slow amatuers benefit there.

The prize or goal given to a fast amatuer rider is trying to stay amatuer for an extra year to win a championship, when they really should ride as experts.  Again, who benefits here?

And yes, I am slow and never would have had a chance to win an amatuer championship. :P

I have a view on this as i am kinda in this situation i am getting close to winning my class championship as an AM however i'm by no means fast and at most tracks my lap times would not even be mid pack expert more like getting lapped on the 2nd lap ..lol with the exception of one track.. so i will not mind staying down one more year to work on my riding .. the only reason i am about to win is because i have ran a full season and sometimes there are only 3 or 4 people on my grid at some races so then i get alot of points even if i finish last so if you look at some of my races and where i finish you might think i was "fast" but however if you look at my lap times it may not be so..hell at some tracks you might even laugh ;D so if i were to be made move up next year i think it would be bad for me and some of the people i race with by getting in their way ...just my 2 cents :-)

I plan on staying AM next year!!

Yes i got enough points for a move to expert.  (that cause i went to 4 race weekends, with 1 being a double points and 1 being a twin sprint and CCS point system is the way it is.)

Am i fast enough to be expert,  yes and no  (at the two tracks i've raced at sometimes i can do top AM lap times,  sometimes im a few seconds off)  

Im still new (not raw out of the box like i was the first weekend) and got a lot more to learn.

see, it is precisely my point. It shouldn't be up to individual racers to classify themselves, the race org should put each racer in their rightful place. Once a rule is set, enforce it. Do not allow people to decide where they want to be. How about if I go tell CCS I would like to run slicks in SS because I would less likely to loose traction?

What is the point of the AM class? Is is a developmental stage or a lower level of competition? 3 tier seem to make sense, you have a faster level and a slower level, then a beginer level. A place to learn and grow shouldn't be a place for people to hang around because it is easier competition. The AM class shouldn't be designed to allow some people to be competitive because they are slower than the top experts.

We should have Expert A, Expert B and novice/amateur. Or Pro, Expert, and Amatuer. But Amatuer should be for true newbies with less classes and only points to upgrade to Expert B(the middle tier). Once you reach points to move up, it is absolute.

Maybe once you reach 500 points as an AM you automatically move to Expert B, whenver it may be (during the season too). And you get to carry all your points toward that championship. So people will have to get so much experience before eligible for prices and such. But still have a shot at a championship. And once you have so many points, you have the option to move to EXPERT A, but not required. So the multi-year AM's now can stay in lower competition, without lower rewards.

I will probably move to expert early at the last round this season.  I am running very close to the same lap times as the top guys, yet have no chance in hell of winning an AM championship.  If I stayed back next year, yes I'd probably win a championship or two.  But what fun is it to run up front all alone for at least half of theseason until the new guys learn to catch up?  I can't wait to have a shot at some prize money too! ;)

While this all sounds great....

How will the classes be run?  Someone suggested to run less classes, but who is going to be willing to give up their favorite class?

Just a few questions.

Dawn   :)

hey,  what about the guy that was expert last year .  That is an AM this year and running every race/weekend he can to win all the championships ??

Just wanted to throw some Powermist into the mixture !!

The problem with the points is you can earn enough points to go EX but still be too slow and even unpredictable/unsafe.

How bout this !!!  maybe it should be done based on lap times ???

OK heres a maybe dumb thought. How about 600's into 3 classes. Lightweight grids aren't usually full and AM and EX run together people get lapped there too but 600 classes are usually real full grids with seperate races AM and EX and 600's being the most hotly contested races that's where the safety issue is the most serious. Hold newbies out of 600superbike and/or MWGP till their 4th race. That could also promote newbies to start with a LW bike.
 And I agree championship points for AM, F40 and such should be canned. If your plates are yellow, your supposed to be learning.

Bernie said it all right there. I only raced 1/2 season as an amateur (2001) then I moved up to Expert the very next season. I wanted to get away from racing yellow plates as quickly as I could. Moving up to expert class right away helped me go faster because you have to. Hell, I won the expert championship my first expert year (SE LWSB). So it is not all that hard to do. Just set some goals and go for it.

i've got some powermist for you.
don't get me started Steve!
we all know who is being talked about in the Midwest amateur ranks.....but will anything be done about it?
probably not, unless everyone complains to Kevin Elliott. It isn't fair to you or anyone else. say you get a 6th in a money race that pays thru 5th. Now guess
who finished in front of you? Yep you guessed it
the 6th year amateur...now you are out your purse.
and a piece of wood. Whether you are an amateur
or an expert, winning is winning, and we all have to start somewhere. But this is a disgrace to our racing community and to the spirit of competition. Whatever!  all i know is that i am going to be an expert next year regardless of how many tracks i've been on. the whole point of being an amateur is
to get into the sport, learn the basics and excel
from there. Some people just excel a little faster
than others. You will only get faster by racing with faster people. period. why would you want to stay amateur. money? i think the yellow plates are ugly anyway!
Benji #30 soon to be a top 5 expert!!!!
why settle?

I raced my first weekend at Summit this past Sat. I'm going to race at VIR later this month, and I may have 500 points when its done. Will I be an expert -- no way, I'm just starting to learn. Will I move up, as soon as I can run times in the middle of the expert pack. For me, racing is about safely dicing it up, I'd rather do that in the middle of the expert pack, b/c those guys are safer/more experienced, than w/ the less experience amateurs ... like me.
  

About the only way I know to really split people between EX and AM is to somehow do it by lap times, although it would be pretty difficult for CCS to manage that. I guess I am in the small group of people here who is going to be an AM only as long as the organization forces me to. If I could find a way to bump to EX today I would probably do it.

It does suck as well to be an AM and find out all of the people that finished ahead of you in a race either used to be EX or have been racing AM for 4 or more years.

Well, CCS has those transponders. Why not download lap times into a computer, then spit out of the amateur class all racers whose average times for their 3 races are higher than the middle finisher in the equivalent expert race?  Or, something like 120% of the winning expert time .... You get the picture. In the age of computers, this can't be hard, and it would facilitate bumping people up throughout the year.  You could even send people back if they end up sucking.

There's got to be some sort of mathematical formula that will evaluate the number of races entered and the performance index, that can be used as the "threshold" between EX and AM.  The fast and successful SHOULD move up.

did i tell you that i finished 6th three times at blackhawk a few weeks ago.   (next time there's a Wegman weekend dont let me drink so much !!)

I've been debating this since my 3rd race weekend.

Im fast enough that i wont be the last place expert, in the combined ex/am races i do pass several EX's  (at least the ones i dont run in to ! )

But im really thinking of doing thw whole season next year AS AN AM  TO WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS !!!  And that's the reason for staying AM!!

If I go EX i proable wont go to all the rounds, just ones that are closest to home !!  Yes i will get faster next year, weather i race against AM's or EX's (I set goals to get to certain lap times).  Half of the races are combined EX/AM  so i am racing with EX guys.

But, being in the cannonball pack going into T1 5 wide isnt what im looking forward to. (so far ive made it though all the starts ive had this year)  I also stay out of the middle weight classes and only run the heavy weight classes, which isnt as bad, 30 bikes instead of 40 bikes.

But also, the only thing ive got moded on my bike is the suspension.  No PC, decked block, degreed cams or any HP mods (got a pipe only cause it came with the bike)  and i dont run race gas !  You can get away with this and still run top 5 as an AM,  not in the EX class!

Going to 3 classes could ease the transition between Am and EX.....

Expert -  A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.
                       The highest grade that can be achieved in marksmanship.
                       A person who has achieved this grade.
 
Amateur -   A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
                          An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
                          One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

Novice - A person new to a field or activity; a beginner.

As was pointed out, the use of the transponders could help with setting time standards for the 3 classes based on time percentages....

To qualify as an Expert you might need to average no less that 5% slower lap times than the fastest rider in a class.

To qualify as an Amateur you would need to average between 5.1% and 10% slower laps times than the fastest rider in a class.  

This would mean that at a track like Blackhawk for example, the fast Experts on a 600 are turning around a 1:11 and the revised criteria for an Amateur would require that they turn between a 1:14.5 and a 1:18.  By this it's obvious that you would have some slow Experts moving back to the revised Amateur level and some of the faster current Amateurs moving into Expert.  

All racers would start out as a Novice and then remain there until they were able to maintain an average lap time that would bump them into a higher level.

You could try to set it up where you could make level changes during the season but I'm afraid it would become an administrative nightmare.   Might be better to only make the transitions between seasons.  

Since the grids for the current Am races seem to consistantly be the largest, you could probably maintain close to the same number of events in a day by running the new Am level with the Ex races as 2 wave starts (taking into account that new Am level would only consist of  more accomplished riders.)  Using the above lap time examples you would probably not see the Experts catch the Amateur back markers in an 8 lap race even with a 2 wave start.

I think it is definitly do-able to set up time standards from each track that would give you an overall database from which to set reasonable parameters for the different competition levels.

This really is no different than what I have been involved in for the last 6 years in setting standards each season that determine how fast high school swimmers need to be to qualify for the State swim meet in Missouri.  We set a qualifying time for each event that is intended to give us approximately 24 swimmers qualify for the State meet for each event.
With this we look at averaged results over the past 8 years so that we can see overall trends in times - not just fluke years where you have a lot really skilled kids.
  
Rick

 8)all this talk of fast ex slow ex is kinda silly, if a guy is an expert and he is slow,but safe who cares as long as he is not a problem, if he pays his fees and stays in the back of the pack thats his deal. anyone whether ex or am who is dangerous should be addressed. this iis club racing which means anyone who pays gets to play, if one chooses not to deal with this they might want to condsider racing AMA, WSBK, GP where one must qualify thus earning the right to whine, however there are racers there who are also in the back and getting lapped. does it ever really end? why would it bother me if a guy is slow , just pass him, end of story,move on to the front all this complaining this is a hobby no one is earning a liviing from racing ccs on the weekends, just be glad you have the cash to blow on this, move on.]

Now that we have transponders, if we actually had to qualify and be within 110% of the pole sitter (like formula 1), then we would certainly know that everyone that made it to the grid deserved to be there.  If you didn't make it, back to practice and track days.  For safety, this would be the best.  For profit, definitely not, and that's how ccs looks at it.

-brent

 ;Dsounds like pro racing to me.

Quote8)all this talk of fast ex slow ex is kinda silly, if a guy is an expert and he is slow,but safe who cares as long as he is not a problem, if he pays his fees and stays in the back of the pack thats his deal. anyone whether ex or am who is dangerous should be addressed. this iis club racing which means anyone who pays gets to play, if one chooses not to deal with this they might want to condsider racing AMA, WSBK, GP where one must qualify thus earning the right to whine, however there are racers there who are also in the back and getting lapped. does it ever really end? why would it bother me if a guy is slow , just pass him, end of story,move on to the front all this complaining this is a hobby no one is earning a liviing from racing ccs on the weekends, just be glad you have the cash to blow on this, move on.]

why don't we stop having racing schools, pull out all the corner workers and just let the boys play?

It's about improving systems to make it safer and more enjoyable (in many different ways) for the participants who come and spend money.

If I want to just go ride my bike have fun, not caring if there is a fair and safe system and structure, I would go back to doing I-95 nights with my squid friends.

That way it doesnt really cost me anything

What kind of attitude is "this is only a hobby" so shut up and just keep on??? Because we are not pro's means we can't be taken seriously?

I am paying $$$ a year to race at a club race, so I better be taken seriously!!!

If a guy is slow, pass him? do you race or just pretend to??? how many fast AM's have not lapped the slowest AM for more than twice in a sprint race and come really close to (or have) gotten together with the guy?

Geeze make a observation and express concern for racers' safety and you call it complaining and nonsense, I really want to see you at/on the track!

Whats next, if I were to donate a section of airfence, you going to tell me "just go slower cuz its just a hobby" right??????????????????????????

Quote;Dsounds like pro racing to me.

AND? ? ?

Quotehey,  what about the guy that was expert last year .  That is an AM this year and running every race/weekend he can to win all the championships ??

Just wanted to throw some Powermist into the mixture !!

LOL!

Yeah, I don't get this one at all.  He's going to potentially win the Blackhawk championship and save himself $5000 to $9000 next year.  That isn't right.  He's turning times that are good.  They were good last year, but he had a confidence problem.

Steve, they may not even "let" you remain amateur.  There have been guys that were slower that got bumped to expert, and even I agreed that they needed more time.  Didn't seem to matter.

Now, one can still run fast in the expert classes with a production based bike.  JJ Zehr is a good example.  Stock pipe, gas, suspension.  And he's right there.  Experience in his set up will make him a good expert next year.

As for how to classify...

New riders are new riders.  You give them an opportunity, a window, to ride under that classification.  If they prove to be quite competent or a quick study (that's my end), then the race director can bump them up.  The next class is where you reside until the ride makes the choice to bump up, if the race director feels that they are competent enough, to race in the upper class.  The upper class would be the regular free for all that I love so much.  Not that the class below would be less fun, but it wouldn't be as serious.

Thoughts?

 ;Dhey dumfan, in  the beggining of the statement it says IF HE IS SLOW AND SAFE WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ! the bottom line is that it is CLUB RACING !
and being an expert has more to do with proper action on the track than it has to do with being fast! so see me at the track anytime, and please let me know how you place at the next AMA race!  MOVE ON, GET OVER IT!

well, im sure that they are going to send me my license app with ex marked.   and i would have to make a request to be am one more year.

Has anyone ever been bumped up mid-season by the race director ??  Then what would be the requirements for this ??  JJ and Benji definitly are some of the fastest AMs, would they qualify to get the mid-season bump ? Or are they just fast AM's ? Brian Hall came a few weeks ago on a 750 and took all the HW wins, i think he was turning mid 13's.  Is that qualify for a bump to EX ?

About this being done just for fun. Well I'm racing to see what i can do.  In competition against my peers.  I do plan on having fun.  If it wasnt fun i dont think id be racing.  I dont expect to make money in this.  If i was only doing this for fun, then i would not race, id just do NESBA or STT track days.  We race cause were adrenline junkies!  And it gives me satisfaction that i beat someone, or it tells me i need to learn/practice/get better  to beat the other guys !

There needs to be something there to attract the new guys.  If there wasnt a seperate AM and EX championships/races/contingencies  i honestly dont think i would of ever tried racing!  There are alot of guys that are way faster than me, will i ever get there?  Hope so! If i had to race in EX class this year, i wouldnt have had a win or any top 5's.  I proable would have a very different point of view about my plans next year.  

Well now im starting to ramble,  going to play vid games_{this is sub text} !

Quote;Dhey dumfan, in  the beggining of the statement it says IF HE IS SLOW AND SAFE WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ! the bottom line is that it is CLUB RACING !
and being an expert has more to do with proper action on the track than it has to do with being fast! so see me at the track anytime, and please let me know how you place at the next AMA race!  MOVE ON, GET OVER IT!

ya please show us your intelligence by making fun of other people's name...

What is club racing has to do with anything here??? is it again about professional's lives means more than no-professionals? I don't get it, just because its not pro racing means we shouldn't be concerned about safety?

and being too slow poses a problem by it self. I don't care how good you think you are, avioding a guy going 30mph slower has nothing to do with how "safe" you or the other person is.

Oh and, what does HOW I PLACE IN A AMA RACE has to do with what is being talked about.

But since you lack the basic english skills to comprehend the spelling of my name, I don't expect you to understand what this thread is about...

Quote;Dhey dumfan, in  the beggining of the statement it says IF HE IS SLOW AND SAFE WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ! the bottom line is that it is CLUB RACING !
and being an expert has more to do with proper action on the track than it has to do with being fast! so see me at the track anytime, and please let me know how you place at the next AMA race!  MOVE ON, GET OVER IT!

besides, read my FIRST post again, I see a problem in the AM level, not the EX level...

and somehow I still don't understand why how I place in a AMA race has to do with what is being discussed here...

ask me a couple years from now and I will tell you how I place... Please remind me

 ;DWhaa!

QuoteAs for how to classify...

New riders are new riders.  You give them an opportunity, a window, to ride under that classification.  If they prove to be quite competent or a quick study (that's my end), then the race director can bump them up.  The next class is where you reside until the ride makes the choice to bump up, if the race director feels that they are competent enough, to race in the upper class.  The upper class would be the regular free for all that I love so much.  Not that the class below would be less fun, but it wouldn't be as serious.

Thoughts?

I think that is what I had in mind too. A few "true" provisional classes to gain experience for new comers, then fun classes and serious classes. The beginner ones can be seperated by displacement/bike type, and the others can be as they are, maybe cut down a few to save time, or some small classes can be run combined.

if they continue to run race schools on Sat. then they can have 3 newbie classes on sunday, and they keep running then until they get enough to move up. That way they can race the first weekend they take the school, and be out of way of the "fast AM's". because someof the new comers don't have the track experience and/or the knowledge of the track.

Quote;DWhaa!

I guess you don't care, its all a joke to you...

whatever, you ain't worth your own time

 ;Ddude it's not a joke , but really there is not alot that can be done at this level, there is no real way, without great  disruption to the current program to get around this, all you can do is move up and on.

Quote;Ddude it's not a joke , but really there is not alot that can be done at this level, there is no real way, without great  disruption to the current program to get around this, all you can do is move up and on.

man... my intention is not to save the current program from disruption, but to change it. I see things in the current programs that I don't like, so I ask to see if things could be changed for the better.

I don't mean stop right now and go with new unproven things, but if a new idea can be developed and make sense, we can start it next season or whatever. I just see a lot of concers, as more new comers show and the fast AM's are getting faster. And it is also the crazy season where some AM's are already sandbagging for stay AM next year, and the talk is starting. It is talked about every year, and it would nice to have a new system, or modify the current one so it doesn't happen. Right now, the system does not really encourage the fast AMs to move up, and thats where the potential problems, complains, safety issues, unfair issues come in.

     On one of the previous threads some months ago on this very subject, I had suggested a performance based system of advancement based on lap times compared to the fastest racer in a certain class (comparing AM times to EX times in the same class). When comparing the lap times you would do a percentage relationship to the fastest racer generating a true performance index, not basing it on finishing position which can be very flawed in judging a riders ability.

     A few potential problems I see would be the situations where a racer doesn't do well in a certain weather condition, a racer is riding injured, or there is mechanical troubles with their bike, etc. In each of these situations the racer would not be riding at their true ability level, so would that mean they have to run in the next lower level? What would happen to the points they earn in that lower level as compared to the ones they earned in the upper level? How abruptly would a racer be bumped up or down based on performance? (instantly, the next event, after multiple events of slower times, or?). Who would be burdened with judging everyones performance on an individual basis at every event? Would actual race times be the determining factor, or practice times? (remembering that there are usually different track conditions between those times). What about the racers who feel they couldn't run with the fastest riders, so they sandbag in the middle catagory and win all the time by staying just shy of the time requiring them to go to the top level?

     Another situation is if you had to qualify for the upper group by being a certain percentage of the fastest racers time and you did so, but then were running slower than that during the actual race, would you then be bumped down, and how soon? At 105% times there wouldn't be any lapping of backmarkers in sprint races (Even at 110%, lapping anyone would be almost non existent in a sprint race - except for those with problems, ran off the track, etc.), isn't passing the backmarkers during a heated battle part of the challenge too?

     Racing for a win and competing for a championship are often times very different types of strategy. Look at NASCRAP, the racer that wins races often times is not the one that wins the championship, in fact the championship can often times be won by never winning a race - just being consistent. Similar is CCS class championships, for me to be leading class chamionships while consistently finishing at the back in EX races is proof of that (though I think I don't deserve them based on my lack-luster racing effort this year, yet there I am in the points  :-/).

     Though some type of probational classes sounds like a good idea, would everyone be willingly to stay later in the day or possibly cut some classes out of the schedule to allow for them? Maybe some type of certification program thru someone like Super Dave showing that you were ready to compete at Amatuer level is the way to go (based on experienced racers judging if their ready for competition)? Possibly then keep the AM / EX classifications the same but use the previously mentioned performance % for moving from AM to EX instead of points. The problem with this will be people like myself who have chosen to race at a much more relaxed pace (though capable of going faster), but still have a number of years as an EX and understand how to race slower and try not to be a hazard at the same time. On that note I do have to admit that some events are better than others at showing the blue flag warning at least of the leader approaching you from behind so you can ride overly predictable lines.

     Just wanted to throw these ideas and questions out there for thought.  :)

I don't think lap times would work... you have different classes and different tracks, and times vary differently...
My times at VIR can (and have) win me a race, but put me in 9th (mid-pack) in another.

At some tracks the difference between the fastest racer and me is less than at other tracks... so then what would happen... would I be an expert at one track and 2nd level expert/amateur at another?

Or even expert in 1 race, and 2nd level expert in a different race, on the same weekend?

I think it's tough to do, but points is really the only way to do it.  Even performance index aint' that great.. b/c isn't it partly calculated based on grid position... yea, my PI sux b/c I'm usually gridded 1,2 or 3rd, but not always come in 1,2,3 place, so my PI goes down all the time. If it's based on PI, then sh1t,.. I'd probably be AM next year again.. and I definitely don't think I should be AM next year


But I agree on another tier.. but then what would that do to the races.. we surely couldn't double or 1.5x the # of races we have now.. Sh1t, sometimes we can't even get in all the the races as 7-laps now, as is.

Dafan,
you are wasting your time with ronin.

i think that a laptime based system would be ineffective due to sandbagging. whiners wouldn't need to protest, just go fast enough to stay an AM.
i think that Super Dave's idea would be more suitable. And i'm not being bias here (Dave being my
pimp and all) but think about it: novice group for
newbies, amateur level for fun seekers and sandbaggers(without contingency of course) and
the expert/pro group for the serious guys looking to advance to something bigger/make some money
doing it. If CCS can run a race (Sportbike as an example) without paying purse to amateurs, then
they certainly could run an entire group or groups
of racers without purses/contingency/championships.
Think about it again, take the contingency away
from the amatuers and some may loose interest, but
at the same time, it may increase the desire of most to want to move up to where the real money is.
And move quickly for sure. I myself want a piece
of the manufacturers contingency, and I can't have
that without being an expert. Something other than
fun fuels the fire. Desire to win and be succesful as
well as monetary compensation. And those yellow plates are just ugly!
Benji.#30

I feel there isn't enough incentive to move to the expert class unless you are fast enough to go right to the top 5 or have plenty of money to spend on tires, etc. I am racing on a very limited budget like most racers running up credit cards in able to afford to race. If I can stay Am one more year so I can get tire money by running top 5 it is worth it so I can afford to race. If I move to expert no more contingencies. I raced 3 race weekends and got 600 points because one of them was double points, does that mean I was twice as fast that weekend? I think the advancement requirements are very low for CCS which I wouldn't mind if there was incentive to move up. My solution would be to eliminate the purses and contingincies in the Am classes--plaques only and pay back twice as far in the expert classes, also all expert classes should have at least some purse just like in motocross based on the number of riders entered in the class.
   The issue with safety with riders of such different speeds is partly due to the gridding system. If you are lapping someone in a sprint race it should be easy to go by without incident, the problem is when you have midpack riders gridded up front and someone like Hector gridded in the back based on when they sign up. We have transponders, why not grid by practice times?

It would seem to me that we all agree that the criteria that should be used for moving a racer up is very complex.  That is why an arbitrary system has been set up to "automatically" move someone up at the end of a season.  Nobody has to make the difficult decision.  Than a racer can then protest to stay amatuer.

I think we are doing this backwards.  There are too many variables to have an arbitrary cut and dry promotion system.  Fair and knowledgeable people with a keen understanding of the sport and the dynamics of the totality of circumstances have to be entrusted to make descisions.

Eliminate amatuer championships.  The amatuer ranks are for learning.  

The race director will evaluate the performance of the top 5 finishers in amatuer classes on a race by race basis.  When the race director deems the racer to be safe, predictable and reliably swift, the racer gets bumped to expert.  No Protest.  I have spoken with enough race directors to know that this is well within their ability to evaluate.

Arbitrary systems are designed to allow people not to have to make decisions.  In this case, it is because racers will get upset if they are not allowed to "compete" for an amatuer "championship".  There should not be an amatuer championship.  If it is eliminated and trustworthy people are allowed to move racers to expert when it is plainly obvious that they should be moved to expert, everyone benefits, and the spirit of true competition lives on.

Of course the real winners here are the true amatuers, and the newcomers to the sport.  They are given an environment for learning without the fear that comes with an overqualified "amatuer" lapping them at expert-pack speed.

What is safer, a blazing fast amatuer lapping a true amatuer with high closing speed, or that same fast amatuer being on the track with experts who are moderately faster than him/her?

And again, I come back to the intention of racing.  It is about competition.  Sandbagging is bad for all sports and it trivializes what we are all here for.

Go back and read one of the many "why do you race" threads on this forum.  Everyone talks about the thrill of competition, bettering themselves, tight racing with fellow competitors and racing "the track".  I never saw one person who claimed to race so that they could impress their non-racing buddies with hollow championships won at the expense of racing school students circulating the track with T-shirts over their leathers.

Arnie,
we're on the same page. I like your idea of practice times as a way to grid, sort of like a pseudo-qualifying deal. It should be a privelege(spl) to be
on the track. Lets face it, some people try it and don't like it , so they quit. Lets make the amateur
class less likeable to those who enjoy the race and
sweeten like candy the expert class for those who
need sugar!
I want candy!!! I want candy!!!
what i really want is to pass the teacher. Look out
Dave, here I come!!!!!
Benji. #30

Bernie puts it very well.

Then if a complex solution can't be implemented - big changes are hard to convince people with. Then the simple thing would be

1. no AM championships. Although CCS would hate this one because that will cut half of the ROC's attendence. So we would have to figure out something else for this one.

2. no AM purses. This is important, it will turn a sandbagger's budget upside down. From making it even and race for "free" to loosing a lot of money.

3. Give small purses to more expert races. ULGP, Sportbike, and one class each displacement level. Or maybe all classes have a small purse where the winner make back the entry fee and less for places behind. Or a pot based on entries.

4. Limit AM contigencies. Or distribute it further back if the intent is to encourage new comers to keep racing. Lets pay back 10 places at 1/2 the amount instead of paying only 5. New racers usually perform inconsistently, so the top 10 will change from race to race. A wider payout will benefit many more, and the smaller amount will discourage a sandbagger from stay back.

Everything seems doable expect the no AM championship. Maybe the AM championship at Daytona are limited to TRUE first year racers. So even if you have been bumped to expert, you can STILL enter the AM ROC if you CHOOSE(instead of expert races) and win a AM championship. But one one shot, once in a lifetime, to preserve the true meaning of amateur.

QuoteHas anyone ever been bumped up mid-season by the race director ??  Then what would be the requirements for this ??  JJ and Benji definitly are some of the fastest AMs, would they qualify to get the mid-season bump ? Or are they just fast AM's ? Brian Hall came a few weeks ago on a 750 and took all the HW wins, i think he was turning mid 13's.  Is that qualify for a bump to EX ?

About this being done just for fun. Well I'm racing to see what i can do.  In competition against my peers.  I do plan on having fun.  If it wasnt fun i dont think id be racing.  I dont expect to make money in this.  If i was only doing this for fun, then i would not race, id just do NESBA or STT track days.  We race cause were adrenline junkies!  And it gives me satisfaction that i beat someone, or it tells me i need to learn/practice/get better  to beat the other guys !

JJ came to my school in May of 2002.  Benji came to my school in August of 2002.  They are true amateurs.  They have just been good at listening, executing, and they have enough ability and good reaction speed that it all came pretty quick.

There have been guys that have been bumped in the middle of the year.  Chris Kinman came to my school after a 20 lay off from road racing, and we actually got him licensed as an expert first weekend out.  Just seemed like the right thing to do for him.

Threre definitely needs to be different classifications.  Something that attracts and, I think more importantly, retains racers.  I guess that's a big part of what I do...help retain riders.

Quote;Ddude it's not a joke , but really there is not alot that can be done at this level, there is no real way, without great  disruption to the current program to get around this, all you can do is move up and on.

The foundations already exist in organizations like LRRS.  They have an amateur, junior, and expert division.  This was the traditional way that motorcycle racing was done for years and years.  MX still has A, B, and C classes for just this same reason.  

So, there is something that can be done.  But, if you don't want, or don't have, any input, that's fine.

Quotebut think about it: novice group for
newbies, amateur level for fun seekers and sandbaggers(without contingency of course) and
the expert/pro group for the serious guys looking to advance to something bigger/make some money
doing it. If CCS can run a race (Sportbike as an example) without paying purse to amateurs, then
they certainly could run an entire group or groups
of racers without purses/contingency/championships.
Think about it again, take the contingency away
from the amatuers and some may loose interest, but
at the same time, it may increase the desire of most to want to move up to where the real money is.
And move quickly for sure. I myself want a piece
of the manufacturers contingency, and I can't have
that without being an expert. Something other than
fun fuels the fire. Desire to win and be succesful as
well as monetary compensation. And those yellow plates are just ugly!
Benji.#30

I think you're at the basis for it all, Benji.  I don't think that taking away contingency is the right thing to do, but probably taking away cash purses would be more in line.  It would bring back some of the desire to be an "expert" or what ever it would be called, while still maintaining fun factor.

First, there must be incentives.

Three classifications.

First one is just for learning, period.  Kind of like PeeWee football where, officially, no one keeps track of the score.  No contingency, purse, limited classes.  You can get your feet wet.  Require four weekends of this for anyone that is starting out, but a maximum of one 12 month period.

Next, a Junior class.  Contingency is fine.  I think championships are good in this class because it rewards consistency and following a series.  For those that have never followed a whole series, it isn't as easy as it looks.  Lots of things that happen and that you learn over the course of the season.

Next, and expert/pro class.  Higher entry fees, purse pay outs, contingencies, limited number of classes to give it more of a premiere status.  Championship bonuses for those that show up the next season..."to show" money, so to speak.  Currently the reward for being a top ten plate holder is...a plate...big deal.  That system is so bad, it's a joke.  CCS thinks it makes money, I'd like to see where the accounting shows that.  Doesn't make any sense.

Gridding by times would be hard.  Gridding by points, it might be do-able with CCS new computer.

How to bump up riders?  I stated how to get bumped to the second class.  To the top level, I suppose that could be a decision that could be made by the individual.  If you're fast enough to win races in the #2 class, you would probably get some $ in the upper class.  I would think that it would just work itself out.

Back in the late '80's, all expert classes had a payout for experts.

I have heard  lot of the ams this past weekend say they were going to stay back. ( I ckecked their times and they were all in the 1:25-1:28 range.  One guy was going 22s)

there should be a new system. but what it should be i don't know.

A few questions to stir the pot.

Would adding a Jounior classification keep the speed of the bikes closer (that is what we are after in this discussion)? Some racers could be in the beginner class their entire career.

Do we run all 3 classifications seperate (no combined races, LRRS runs Jr/Ex combined)?

Do all three classifications run the same classes? If not who would decide which classes at Jr and which at expert? Are most of the classes then Jr with a few amateur and expert races, especially if races are not combined?

Perhaps FormulaUSA should be expanded, allowing only Pro/Expert riders. I think part of the problem is that there is no place for faster experts to go. AMA is a pretty big jump from club racing. What if a more intermediate series is set up, but with a few more dates than most national series have, maybe east/west type series? This would leave the current CCS races to the club racers and developing racers (FUSA racers would not be eligible for CCS points, purses, or contingencies).

QuoteI have heard  lot of the ams this past weekend say they were going to stay back. ( I ckecked their times and they were all in the 1:25-1:28 range.  One guy was going 22s)

there should be a new system. but what it should be i don't know.

I know of three guys this weekend who is trying to stay back next year, 1 does 1:19-20's one does 1:22 and the other does 1:23's. So I already see the fast AM for next year, unless they get bumped by force.

The all the other guys staying back... I see the grid next year is going to filled with this years AM's (especially there are less fast guys this year in MA, and the top 3-4 are all going EX, I hope) so top 10 will have 8 guys from this year who finish around the same. I do commend my pit mate for wanting to go EX even though he is not winning this year, thats the correct attitude, move forward and not trying to stay back and get some easy money and rewards. I guess we are not that young, and to make it further in RR we have to not hang around in AM ranks.

And I made the biggest mistake in the world for wanting to stay back this year... I will be the first to admit. and I didn't even get that much faster

The current system may not work for all, but it does work for some.

Paul raced the first year (absolutely sucked).  He could have been classified in the Pee/Wee program as Super_Dave recommended.

Paul's second year was better (no letter sent to CCS to remain amateur, not enough points), but he was finishing in the middle to back of the pack of amateurs.  He only made it to the top five of the amateur finishes a few times (chasing Edgar, Casper, Sorenson and K3).

Paul's third year, yes we did send a letter to CCS to remain an amateur.  This was a good thing.  It allowed him more time to refine his riding and reduce his lap times (thanks Super_Dave) so that next year, hopefully, he may be able to finish mid-pack in the expert ranks.  When Paul first started this year, the difference in lap times between the top expert in the LW class and Paul was about 10 seconds, that difference is now down to 4 seconds consistently.

Amature championships....  Paul is in line to win a few if everything goes right.  After dropping 10K this year, it would be wonderful to have something to show for it.

Expert championship...  Probably not.  The midwest is blessed with some very talented riders like Ed Key, Brian Lacy, Mark Sorenson, just to name a few.  Paul being a big boy on an SV, well, it would take a miracle.

My $0.02.

Dawn   :)

I have a couple of thoughts on this as a person who will be starting out next year.  It seems there are 2 problems, fast amateurs who should be bumped up to expert and slow novices.  I'll leave the first up to people who know better but will offer a suggestion for the second.

I have noticed that when people are going through school for licensing their on-track time is somewhere around an hour. (at least at BHF)  I don't think that is a heck of a lot of time to get accustomed to riding on a track.   Is there an effective way to get the new riders more track time before they can race without having to mess with the class structure? Maybe require a 2 day school and extra track time? (some hours in a Friday practice or the like)  I am thinking of something like an aircraft license where you need x hours experience to be certified to fly the plane by yourself.  Another day of school would cost more but the additional cost would be insignificant compared to the other startup costs of racing.  I figure another 150 bucks would be worth the extra training and safety.

my 0.02

MadXX - Getting used to riding on a track can be accomplished via attending track days put on by organizations such as NESBA (www.nesba.com) or, for more intensive instruction, a school such as VisionSports (www.team-visionsports.com) would be the "hot setup".

If you've never ridden on the track, do yourself a favor and get some seat time in before heading out to your first race.  (Trust me on this one).

KB I agree.  There are however a lot of people who do not have track experience or have very little.  Those that do are generally going at a reasonable pace and not half as dangerous as those who don't.  

My suggestion was to require the track experience before being able to race in order to be sure that all of the new people are going at a reasonable pace and are used to being passed.  Like the JR class it would give more experience to a newbie before racing but would not affect the weekend schedule as much for the rest of the participants.

So what you're proposing is, essentially, instituting a minimum "qualifying lap time" before someone could be granted a license.

KB.  I was thinking of something more like a minimum qualifying experience level.  The lap times should by default go up with the experience but so will the confidence and track presence of the individual.   There are probably fast people out there who could qualify by minimum time without even going to school but would be unsafe racers due to their inexperience on a track.

also posted in the other thread... sorry

then to refine the idea,for a rider to get out of the beginner class, they must finish 4 weekends PLUS able to turn a average time of within 110-115% of the winning amateur time in the given displacement class. So for a 600 that would be about 1:26-1:30 and VIR would be 1:47 - 1:51. And if we eliminate the fastest AMs to expert, it would be even safer, as lapping would not even happen at VIR in a sprint race.
 
As for classes. I think there should be a sportsman class, a LW, a MW and HW class for beginners. You can race one class up for a total of 2 races a weekend for the first 4 weekends. That way its easier on the racers, equipment, and keep the speed difference to a minimal.
 
The beginner class should be just for learning. not for a championship, for race wins, for points. So people will focus on racing basics without the pressure to win real stuff. Thats safer for them and others. If a fast beginner have to race 4 weekends as a beginner no matter what, he will be focused on riding well instead of trying win and collect points toward a championship.
 
WERA have PN's only they don't seperate the races. We should have the PN's run seperate races to get their feet wet and up to speed. Most of them don't race more than a couple classes a weekend anyway. Without getting spooked by fast AM's and always finishing toward the back(how would they know, or able to register early for a grid spot up front) they may enjoy it more and come back more.
 
AM classes can stay the same, but EX classes should more mimick the Formula USA classes, maybe with 2 classes per displacement category, and run qualifying just like Nationals do, now that we have the technology. It would be more fun for the experts, and more rewards. And for guys that runs nationals, it would be the same format, I would definitely enjoy it more.
 
What do you guys think? Maybe I can put it in words with Dave's help and see if we get anywhere with this

It's an interesting proposition...

There are quite a few good ideas here.  Keep 'em coming!

I only had 2 day school, 2 day track day, 1 day school and 1 day open practice on a track before i started to race !  I was mid-pack AM the first weekend.

I only did 4 race weeknds this year im going to end up with about 700 points.  

MaddX, for someone who hasn't even started yet, I'm impressed. It's great you're thinking ahead. Somehow I don't believe you're going to be a problem. Best of luck.

Some good ideas however...good luck getting CCS to listen to it..

I agree with Dafan and Arnie both.  I think that the grid should be based on practice times.  Hector cut a 1:17.somthing in qualifying for FUSA AM UNL GP.  Shiot..this was faster than some expert times in the top 6 for the EX UNL GP and there is no business for him in am.  It would pay for him to be in the ex class, but if I had not had some crashing misfortunes and nechanical problems I would probably be placed into expert next year. I can cut 28's so far on Summit and that really is the only track I can afford to race since it is close and my work schedule is so FUBAR.  Make AM a learning class, no purse, maybe reduce the contingency to half and payback 10 spots instead of 5 and make it a trophy class.  Up the purses and contingency in EX class to make it more affordable. (Tires--$340 a set..a rip in my opinion..we are paying for Duhamels tires and other Pro's who get the tire deals from the manufacturers to cover the cost over there.)  Hell, these guys run new tires all the time.  I have to flip mine somtimes due to finances.  Grid based on practice times and placed accordingly in with the rest of the times in the class you are going to run.  There is a HUGE difference in speed in AM.  Hector, Donny ect...run 1:18's in a race which is still faster than lots of EX guys in the top 5 - 10.  You are right Defan, somthing needs to be done.  

Thanks Baltobuell.  I'll take all the luck I can get and hopefully be able to turn it into skill along the way.   :)  Now if I can just get the track schools to post their 2004 schedules...

Great ideas concerning gridding, etc.
i will be honest with you all and say that the only reason that i stayed amateur past the second weekend was not the Am championship but because
of how smooth i wasn't. Last weekend @ BHF,
the EX's were running mid 12's to win. which is
about 1.5 sec's better than the first BHF. I worked
real hard on being smooth the last 3 weekends
and was riding other peoples bikes..some slower, some faster(750's) which are a hoot compared to my 600!!!  my point is, even tho I may have a
fast learning curve, i still needed to learn a lot!
i now feel that it would be in my best interest to move to expert. i'm smoother now(i think) and i
feel that i have sort of plateau'd with my lap times.
i can't speek for any other AM out there with the exception of maybe JJ Z and certainly stumpy who i know is a true Amateur. We both have improved from track time and riding against eachother. my times dropped 2 whole seconds the last month by working on being smooth. low 13's now on the 600....feels good...
Gridding improvements would help things be more safe, but something else still needs to be implemented to level-out the playing field. When
we're done with practice on sat morn, everybody goes to the tower to look at times, and i am amazed
at the differences between Am's and Ex's.
Am's can be 20 sec's apart, where as Ex's more like 5sec's.
so what do we do now? how do we make these improvements? Not for myself, being an ex now. but
for the new guys who will be fast AM's next year and years to come.
oh one other thing, did anybody else notice that when the blue flag was thrown at the LC(learning Curves) guys, they would look back while standing the bike up. Everytime!  I almost high-sided in T4
when one of these LC guys got stuffed by Stumpy...
and parked his S h i t  in front of me.  These sort of situations is what is wrong with the current system.
The Blue/orange shirted newbians need not be doing
that when points are on the line. I know that's part of racing, but not this late in the year! right? 5 sec's is one thing, but 25- 30 mph in a 2nd gear corner while constantly shifting lines is another!
Benji. #30

QuoteWould adding a Jounior classification keep the speed of the bikes closer (that is what we are after in this discussion)? Some racers could be in the beginner class their entire career.

Probably would keep things different, maybe not closer.  The beginner class would be limited to a certain time period.  

QuoteDo we run all 3 classifications seperate (no combined races, LRRS runs Jr/Ex combined)?

There might be some combined some way.

[quoute]Do all three classifications run the same classes? If not who would decide which classes at Jr and which at expert? Are most of the classes then Jr with a few amateur and expert races, especially if races are not combined?[/quote]

I wouldn't think there would be the exact same classes.  Minimal number of "amateur" races for experience.  A reasonable number of "junior" races for the sportsman type of rider...rider that is gaining experience for becoming a faster rider to potentially turn expert and for the rider that is racing to have fun.  And a minimal number of premier "expert" races, with purses.

QuotePerhaps FormulaUSA should be expanded, allowing only Pro/Expert riders.

Expanded to what?  It can't stand alone under the current budget.  No one can seem to take the time to even get any brochures out, even if 4,000 were printed.

QuoteI think part of the problem is that there is no place for faster experts to go. AMA is a pretty big jump from club racing.

Financially, it's a huge jump.  A good budget to go AMA racing is about $70,000.  And you could never build a bike that would be competitive against the factory specials.

QuoteWhat if a more intermediate series is set up, but with a few more dates than most national series have, maybe east/west type series? This would leave the current CCS races to the club racers and developing racers (FUSA racers would not be eligible for CCS points, purses, or contingencies).

Travel problems for most racers would make it poorly attended.  Unless there was a huge purse.  With the poor support of the motorcycle industry, only a tiny number of riders can even think about affording the AMA series with the small numbers of rounds that exist.  Having more rounds...harder to afford.  

Take away an opportunity to ride for FUSA racers, in addition to purses and contingency locally?  Again, give a rider more reasons to quit.  If you had a local bike dealership to support you, you certainly wouldn't have that anymore if you couldn't race for anything at a local track.  Matt Kennseth still shows up a local events at Slinger once in a while.  No reason why a fast local expert, that doesn't have an FUSA license, shouldn't keep up with a racer that does have an FUSA license.  The license doesn't make anyone fast.

QuoteI have noticed that when people are going through school for licensing their on-track time is somewhere around an hour. (at least at BHF)  I don't think that is a heck of a lot of time to get accustomed to riding on a track.   Is there an effective way to get the new riders more track time before they can race without having to mess with the class structure? Maybe require a 2 day school and extra track time?

Well, yeah, I taught the safety school program for CCS at Heartland Park Topeka, Brainerd International Raceway, and Gateway International Raceway at one time.  I tried to interject as much as possible, but there is no way to really do much for a rider in that period of time.

That was one of the focuses of my Visionsports Riding Schools;  getting quality track time and instruction to new racers in addition to on going support.  That's what I did, and that's what CCS did not see value in when they put their request for dates for 2003 in August of 2002 without talking to me (I had rented those dates for four previous years...).

QuoteSo what you're proposing is, essentially, instituting a minimum "qualifying lap time" before someone could be granted a license.

Ok, so how would that be done?  How do you get someone on the track without a racing license and get them "officially" timed?  

If you have a "newbie" class, that's what it's for:  newbies...

Now, how do we have practice?

QuoteThanks Baltobuell.  I'll take all the luck I can get and hopefully be able to turn it into skill along the way.   :)  Now if I can just get the track schools to post their 2004 schedules...

Don't look for schedules any time soon.  Schedules are usually similar to previous years, unless someone strong arms a way in and take multiple dates.  

I do not for see Visionsports having any new racer schools for next year.  The problems of late 2002 for the 2003 season pretty much hammered out that pretty quick.  

Super Dave,  I bought the learning curves at Wegman so I am set for new rider school.  What I am looking for is some more racer specific training after I am licenced so I can progress quickly and safely.  I am budgeting a significant amount of money for instruction next year to accomplish this.  I figure why spend a year on my own learning the slow hard way when someone else can show me the better way through their own experience.

QuoteI am budgeting a significant amount of money for instruction next year to accomplish this.  I figure why spend a year on my own learning the slow hard way when someone else can show me the better way through their own experience.

I'm with you.  Too much to learn.  And it isn't easy finding the right answers.

So, given the opportunity, is it worth going to a school that limits the number of racing students to eight and an guy like me to instruct?  Cost...probably $400 a person.  Our track, all day.  Eight riders (MAX) and an instructor.  If fewer riders show, it might cost a little more.

I'm looking for input from some of my former students too...

dave I am going to go to the "What is instruction worth to you" thread in general so I dont hijack this one.

Sounds like a plan...

But we could extent this post on for about two decades...LOL!

 ;D

Hey yellow plated sandbagger!

Do you think I could be an amateur again.  ;D

LOL!

I'm racing CRA next year...as an amateur.

So if I have alot of points, but my PI is low, and I throw a possible championship.. would I be able to stay AM agian next year ?

:)

Dave what I was thinking was to possibly break the racing into club racing and more serious racing. Unfortunately I don't think there are enough people racing for this to work. The club racing would be similar to what we currently have. The serious or semi-pro racing would have fewer, longer races with more practice time. Saturday all practice with 1 or 2 GT style races. Sunday, practice with a few feature type races. Spectators would probably be important to getting such a series to work.

More realistically, to add some beginner classes would require dropping some classes. Which ones to drop? We could have beginner races and keep experts and amateurs seperate. Maybe we should have a look at track densities, 50 on a 2 mile track may be too high.

You asked about practice, that would be tough. You want the beginners seperated, so that would require a beginners practice. Do we eliminate even more race classes to allow for more practice? Are practices broken up by lap times? I have seen some new riders that could turn some quick times, but were still a bit on the wild side. I am not sold that lap times are  a good way to proceed. I really don't like having mixed expert and amateur practice either (such as group 4).

QuoteDave what I was thinking was to possibly break the racing into club racing and more serious racing. Unfortunately I don't think there are enough people racing for this to work. The club racing would be similar to what we currently have. The serious or semi-pro racing would have fewer, longer races with more practice time. Saturday all practice with 1 or 2 GT style races. Sunday, practice with a few feature type races. Spectators would probably be important to getting such a series to work.

More realistically, to add some beginner classes would require dropping some classes. Which ones to drop? We could have beginner races and keep experts and amateurs seperate. Maybe we should have a look at track densities, 50 on a 2 mile track may be too high.

You asked about practice, that would be tough. You want the beginners seperated, so that would require a beginners practice. Do we eliminate even more race classes to allow for more practice? Are practices broken up by lap times? I have seen some new riders that could turn some quick times, but were still a bit on the wild side. I am not sold that lap times are  a good way to proceed. I really don't like having mixed expert and amateur practice either (such as group 4).

Yeah, lap times don't work for me either.

I think there is too much redundancy in the schedule.  I love GP bikes, had one myself, but let's blow off MWSB and put it in MWGP.  Same for LWSB and LWGP.  HWSB?  Well, how about ULGP?  ULSS and HWSS?  Sportbike?  How dropping MWSS in there.

Specators would have to show up before it could be marketed.  NASCAR had a following before it was all over TV.

Beginner races?  LW, MW, HW...is there something that wouldn't fit?  And give 'em two events...LW1...LW2.  mabye you offer a performance index to allow for a guy that does have a superbike SV or something that he can't run it in LW1.

OK, time for a few comments:

Timed practice to determine grid position is called QUALIFYING.  Practice is a time to get your gearing, suspension, and jetting set up, find your braking markers and reference points, and scrub tires.  If we were to add a timed session to determine grid positions that's fine, but don't call it practice.  But how do you handle riders riding different bikes in different classes?  We don't have time to run a qualifying session for each race, so it would probably be split like our current practices.  If someone is running a 600 and a 1000 and rides their 1000 in the "qualifying" practice, should those lap times count towards their 600 grid?  How do you track what bike is out in the practice session?

If you really want qualifying, buy a 125 and race USGPRU.  They have timed qualifying (which eats into our CCS time).

I'll admit that I am slow (but I do improve each time out so that doesn't bother me).  I generally finish around 3/4 of the way back in the AM classes.  My highest ever finish is a 7th.  I have only passed one expert in all my races this year (that was still on the track) and I think he was having bike problems.  I do consider myself a relatively safe rider, I rode a year's worth of track days on 5 different tracks before I ever raced, I just would rather progress slowly and steadily and avoid getting hurt (as much as I can).  That said, I'm going to finish this year with over 1000 points and I plan on petitioning to stay am.  In the SW almost all of our races are combined EX/AM, so I'd be in the same place on the track by the end of the race whether I start with the EXs or the AMs.  If in the last coule of races this year I start to ride in the back of the expert pack or take a few high finishes I'll change my mind.

As for beginner races, in ASMA we have a Beginner class.  It is a run-what-ya-brung class, because with the beginners the bike doesn't make much difference in lap times.  Riders are allowed to ride the Beginner race three times, or if they win they are bumped out.  We also let the beginners ride in the amatuer classes (which right now isn't a problem because our grids are generally only 20 riders or so).  This allows the riders to choose if they want to run an AM race their first weekend.  Some are intimidated and just want to run the Beginner class their first weekend, which is good because we don't want people who would be uncomfortable running the AM classes, and it allows the riders some time to get used to racing.  Who here wasn't freaked out the first time they were on the grid in a real race?

-z.

QuoteWho here wasn't freaked out the first time they were on the grid in a real race?

-z.

Let me tell you about my first race.

In 1987, I went to Indianapolis Raceway Park for my first race, and riders school.  It was a WERA National Endurance weekend, in addition to Honda and Suzuki contingency.  This was the hayday of contingency racing, I think.  It was $1500 for a win on a Suzuki, and a new Suzuki GSXR750 off the floor retailed at just above $4000.

Anyway, my classroom work was done on the grandstands while practice was going on.  We had, I think, two riders' school sessions.  Then a written test.  To get our provisional novice license, we had to compete in a race and not crash...big goal.  I was racing a 1986 GSXR750.  It had an aftermarket exhaust on it, so it was considered a "Superbike", the other class was production.  So, the race was B Superbike, expert and amateur combined.  I was gridded on row thirty-three.  They stopped marking the rows at thirty-one.  I survived and finished fifteeth.  It was silly.

I would agree about what you said about gridding by times.  It would just be hard.  I think that gridding by points if they are pre-entered, post entries by entry date, would be good.  At least those that are committed would be gridded in a place that would be beneficial to them.  Doesn't WERA do some races like this?  I know AHRMA does.

Quote....... In the SW almost all of our races are combined EX/AM, so I'd be in the same place on the track by the end of the race whether I start with the EXs or the AMs.  ........

Zac dude, I gotta agree to disagree with you on this on.  
A: If you're riding in the middle of a pack of faster riders, and you see that THEY can go through a turn fast, it would probably make you think/realize that you can go through that same turn as fast, or at least faster than you have been.

B: No way.. if you grid in front, and are like half a second to 1 second slower than some other people, you basically can get a head start, and they'd have to play catch up to you.

How do you think I beat those d@mn SVs?.. I have to grid up front and get as much a head start as I can... TRUST ME.. it makes a difference!  :)

QuoteZac dude, I gotta agree to disagree with you on this on.  
A: If you're riding in the middle of a pack of faster riders, and you see that THEY can go through a turn fast, it would probably make you think/realize that you can go through that same turn as fast, or at least faster than you have been.

Ok, I won't agree with that.

This all has to do with feel.  Just because one guy with one bike goes that fast, doesn't mean you can.  Has to do with how the bike works and feels, and how quickly your body can react (thinking speed and reaction speed).  The fastest guys can probably react the fastest, or they are so experienced that they know what to filter out in order to maintain a rhythm.

OK OK.. maybe I should have said, "riding with the faster riders may give you bigger b@lls and push you more so you'll go faster."

I know it does for my.. especially when I'm trying to chase someone down.

Again, I wouldn't say this takes b@lls...

This is a very logical though out sport.  When a faster guy goes by, it just reminds you that you need to work on something:  set-up probably being the most important, how you do things, how you approach qualifying...where would you like to stop.  

Yes, sometimes you have to go out and just ride with the ability you have, but riding agressively will only take you out and above your confidence that you have in the abilities that you have.  When you do that, you usually don't cut the fastest times, but you can do ok...

Awe sheesh Dave.. you're killing me here. :P

OK OK OK, what I really meant was.. "If you ride with faster riders, it can make you faster." - Right?.. isn't that what everyone says?

QuoteAwe sheesh Dave.. you're killing me here. :P

OK OK OK, what I really meant was.. "If you ride with faster riders, it can make you faster." - Right?.. isn't that what everyone says?

Maybe what you really meant was: if you ride with faster riders, it COULD make you fast. Provided if you think, do your homework, work on the right, not wrong things, and be wise with your choices and selections.

But then again you could be faster by yourself too  :P

I think racing with faster riders make me think more about what I am doing more, and sometimes I can extract info from what I see to use on myself to make me go faster.

These ideas need to be presented to CCS itself.  There are some really good ones posted here. I think that is a good idea about expert and make the races a little longer.  Like making the expert sportbike race the main event on a typical CCS weekend and make it go say 15 - 20 laps.  Afterall, if you read the FUSA program that was at the last weekend, they made the Sportbike the premeir class since it is really the most affordable and most competative, and also the biggest sales in cycles are for 600 class.  Expert can maybe use qualifying and keep the AM a trophy class with contingency only back to 10th and keep it a championship class.  Keep the races the sprint style so AM's dont have to deal as much with getting lapped and long events.  It can be done, as long as CCS wants to cooperate and listen to what the racers have to say and what we want.  It will take the voices of the top experts and Am's to get these points across.  Like Super Dave..a representative of sorts.  They are going to want to hear from guys who have been in it for awhile and plan to stay.  Not from guys who are just testing the waters.  Dafan..perhaps you should voice your opinion to them as well.

this gets discusses 2 each year ..

Is it up to 8 pages yet ?

I know that..who cares..lets get it changed for this 2 year anniversary :)