Has anyone else seen what Pridmore has under his tank and fairing? His Attack Suzuki and his crew are just as serious and as organized as any other team in the paddock. If he's not factory, he's definitely the next best thing.
He's on an"A" support bike, like Erion racing is a privateer. Full works forks, frame, swingarm, wheels, etc. He's doing a great job and with 220 ish RWHP, hes a great rider.
FIrst superbike podiums, way to go, I remember being in victory ciurcle with him back when he got his first Daytona win in 750SS, Got a great pic of me, him and Suzi... YEARS ago...
they call it "Semi-Factory Ride"
They get parts and stuff from Yosh/Suzuki but they(Attack) have to put it all together, Tune it and Make the Setup work for him.
I dont think they have anyone from suzuki setting up thier bikes like the Yosh guys.
If you've ever taken one of his race schools and been on the back of his 750 Kanata with him, you will be humbled.
I think the AMA would do much better if there were 15-20 teams like Attack with factory support and their own mechanics/tuners than they currently do with a few factory riders. I hate to compare, but look at NASCRAP. More people are likely to come out and watch if any one of 15 or 20 riders have a chance to win instead of maybe 4-6 having a legitimate chance. I think that's part of NASCRAP's draw, any number of 35-43 drivers can win each week, and that gives fans a lot more people to pick from when selecting a favorite, etc. It also opens up a huge segment in the collectibles market. Just my .02.
I guess my gripe was that SPEED was continuous calling Pridmore a privateer, and praise his success as a privateer. When in reality he is not a true privateer like Jeffery Purk, Monte Nichols, JJ Roetling, Scott Jensen, or even Geoff May for that matter. Those guys are the true privateers.
Are the Erion Honda riders privateers or are they factory supported?
I agree, Pridmore is a pretty glossy version of a privateer. I think he's a great rider and am very happy for his success in Superbike. But does he earn a salary from "Attack Suzuki"?
What is the definition of privateer - non-factory riders or riders who aren't earning a salary on top of their winnings. I am asking this because I truely am curious as I was somewhat offended by Speed's constants touting of Pridmore as a privateer.
Thanks for your input, in advance!
Heather
Wifeateer of Stumpateer
I wouldn't consider Pridmore a true "privateer". I'd be tempted to call Attack a satellite team. Not full factory, but not exactly scraping up $$$ for tires each weekend either.
Erion Honda is basically a factory team, they just put there B-level riders on the squad. Other than that the bikes are identical. I think I even recall a bodywork swap on one of the bikes during one race weekend.
I think all of the top riders in the AMA are getting paid in some way or another. At least the top 6-8 are, and I am sure most of the top 12 are not struggling to pay for races, unless the team in general is having problems. I think below the top 12-15 you're looking at the true privateers = those guys that must perform or there's no more racing until enough money can be scraped together to headout to the races. Still the same there are some true privateers that flat out refuse to spend all of their own money to race, they hold out for the best opportunities.
QuoteErion Honda is basically a factory team... I think I even recall a bodywork swap on one of the bikes during one race weekend.
I'm pretty sure Miguel and Kurtis shared a backup bike last year.
Erion is a semi factory team, they recieve parts and money from Honda, and share some people. Kurtis is ona full factory bike, but out of his own deal. Erion is sorta a development team for Honda, as is Bruce Transportation. Its the ladder to a factory Honda ride.
Attack is a semi factory team in that they recive money and support from Suzuki, much as Erion does. Jason is a very talented rider, and hauls ass, bu tis not anywhere near a privateer. That is basically a full works superbike, without the works frame. They must use a production based frame for FX.
Jason is a paid rider, and I think there are close to 20 paid rides in Superbike, more in 600 and FX.
I hope jason does very well next year, but I dont think you will see the suzuki dominate like it does with a 20-30 hp advantge like it currently enjoys.
Attack and Corona receive direct support from Suzuki. The Yosh guys work with my friend Rich Doan, and they have to tune bikes too.
Dale Quarterley was a privateer. Dale won the AMA National Superbike race at Mid-Ohio in 1993. When it was all over, HE loaded up the bike, greased the trailer ball, drove home, and began working on his bike.
Jason IS a good guy. So is Josh for that matter.
But the Attack, Valvoline, Corona, Bruce and Erion teams have special things for their programs that come from the manufacturers. They are a school house for the potential up and comers. Are they the "factory teams", no. But to call them privateer teams? Leave that for Higbee, May, and the rest of the guys below.
Does Pridmore get a salary? I'd bet that it's $80k to $120k total in one way or another for him...might include endorcents, etc., whatever.
Will, you heard anything about the new bikes from H,K, or Y?
I have heard new bikes for ...
Suzuki: 600, 750
Kawasaki: 1000
Yamaha: 1000
Not sure about Honda...
Honda has a new cbr100RR comign out, they will show it at the 8hour this weeknd, but tell everyone tis a 600RR (like they did with Doohan and the 600RR parade lap if you remember"
Kawasaki's new ZX10RR? I cant say a word... But I do know....... Lets just says its killer, and SO wicked fast...
Hows this Dave, Ill post the information here about a week before anyone else gets to see it....
BTW, Yamaha is a year away in the cycle, so look for a new bike in 2005
Really, no new R1? I "figured" they were doing something, but I will admit that the river has run kind of dry on the topic.
I thought Kaw might come out with their new 1000 this year. The Kaw's always seem nice initially, but they seem to have a hard time maintaining momentum with their program. Must be all the ships and jet engines.
I suppose it all comes down to definition.
IMO, no way is Pridmore a privateer. Curious as to why in Speed's estimations he is deemed a "privateer" While at the same time he is contracted by Suzuki to compete in World Endurance races. Just because those races are held outside of the states they do not count towards his rider classification with races held in the States. :-/
I also wonder if he is eligible for any AMA contingency dollars as I remember the big brew-ha a few years back concerning the same debate involving Jorden Szoke on a Harley that resulted in a riders petition being circulated to disqualify him from receiving contingency money - as most riders felt he was indeed a factory rider.
I think the AMA ruled that since he was paid from the team and not directly from Harley that he was indeed a "privateer". Never mind that they had access to VR1000's and the Harley Gemini race facilities. ::)
Crap. Pure crap, me thinks.
relax G, it's just jordan szoke. ;D
Quoterelax G, it's just jordan szoke. ;D
Point well taken, my man.
Plus he's Canadian. ;D
Quote Curious as to why in Speed's estimations he is deemed a "privateer"
Remember, you're talking about what they said on Speed. They're not exactly batting a thousand when it comes to accuracy.
QuoteRemember, you're talking about what they said on Speed. They're not exactly batting a thousand when it comes to accuracy.
Yeah, but .289 gets you in the Hall Of Fame. Sometimes they are below that. Which is sad considering that Dave Sadowski- Ski for short, should know better. Plus Dreb has a lot of contacts through WERA and whatnot. In any event it is what it is. :-/
in their defense, it IS realyy hard to fill those empty moments with commentary and not miss occasionally. think about it. could you do it?
Quotein their defense, it IS realyy hard to fill those empty moments with commentary and not miss occasionally. think about it. could you do it?
Nope, I couldn't. I only babble incessantly on the Internet. ;D
They're not expected to be perfect, but you have to take that into account when you're watching. Just because GW called Pridmore a "privateer" doesn't make it da troof. ;)
ya, i get ya. but he prolly doesn't have "suspension" engineers from showa hanging out in his pit either.
Quotein their defense, it IS realyy hard to fill those empty moments with commentary and not miss occasionally. think about it. could you do it?
Nope. not my job. :)
Um, It's not just Speed. The AMA is claiming Pridmore's privateer podium finish as a victory for their change of Superbike rules.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/index.html
Hmmm, think the AMA might have coached the Speed personnel on pushing this one once they saw Pridmore's chances of doing well?
Sorry, I still think it's a stretch of the imagination, but more power to 'em. All I can figure is they really want us to identify with the riders/bikes.
Heather
(Ever the skeptic due to too many courses on persuasion on her way to a degree in P.R. ;D)
QuoteErion Honda is basically a factory team, they just put there B-level riders on the squad. Other than that the bikes are identical. I think I even recall a bodywork swap on one of the bikes during one race weekend.
Actually, the Erion and Bruce bikes are quite a bit different from the Factory Honda, No Limit and Annandale bikes. For example, in 2002, the Erion and Bruce bikes used Ohlins fork internals instead of modified stock internals on their 600SS bikes, whereas Honda used modified stock Showa internals. Also, the Erion and Bruce bikes used Ohlins shocks instead of Showa shocks. This is partly because Honda has Showa factory support and partly becuase Ray just would rather not risk a penalty or fine for a rules infraction.
And yes, I think that the problem with the oil pump bypass springs at Colorado this year was just an honest pre-production mistake.
QuoteAnd yes, I think that the problem with the oil pump bypass springs at Colorado this year was just an honest pre-production mistake.
Really? We were playing with the bypass springs over ten years ago. I think they just got caught, plain and simple.
Regardless, those teams have
HONDA'S production race bike information that the rest of us don't have ready access to. The chassis is the key, the motor is only kind of a bonus. If it's in the ball park, it's ok. How about access to testing? When I had a Team Green ride, I was invited to a test with the factory team at Willow (was the wrong weekend and it was about 2400 miles from my shop/home...
Those are the kinds of things that privateer teams don't have access to.
Shawn Higbee was at Blackhawk a couple of weekends ago on an ugly RC51. It was something to ride for him. Higbee is not on a factory team (anymore...FBF...)
QuoteActually, the Erion and Bruce bikes are quite a bit different from the Factory Honda, No Limit and Annandale bikes. For example, in 2002, the Erion and Bruce bikes used Ohlins fork internals instead of modified stock internals on their 600SS bikes, whereas Honda used modified stock Showa internals. Also, the Erion and Bruce bikes used Ohlins shocks instead of Showa shocks. This is partly because Honda has Showa factory support and partly becuase Ray just would rather not risk a penalty or fine for a rules infraction.
And yes, I think that the problem with the oil pump bypass springs at Colorado this year was just an honest pre-production mistake.
Hmmm... I seem to remember that on more than one occasion last year the "official factory" team borrowing and using Ohlins suspension components from the Erion squad. Split hairs if you must but one thing is for sure. The Erion team is every bit as much a full factory team as the "official" team is. Dosn't Honda own a controlling share in Showa.
QuoteShawn Higbee was at Blackhawk a couple of weekends ago on an ugly RC51.
Hey now! ;D That was his street bike. :)
QuoteHey now! ;D That was his street bike. :)
There's no such thing as an ugly RC51! ;D
Okay, so mine could use some brighter paint... :P
QuoteOkay, so mine could use some brighter paint... :P
LOL!!!
Paul was saying that he should paint his bike just like yours..... I shot him a look and he just started to laugh.
Just to be on the safe side though.....
I went out at bought the paint.
Dawn 8)
QuotePaul was saying that he should paint his bike just like yours..... I shot him a look and he just started to laugh.
Dawn 8)
The "stealth" look is "in" this year. The rest of you Midwesterners just aren't in touch with my up-to-the-minute style. 8)
"stealth" LOLOLOL!!!!!
QuoteReally? We were playing with the bypass springs over ten years ago. I think they just got caught, plain and simple.
Regardless, those teams have HONDA'S production race bike information that the rest of us don't have ready access to. The chassis is the key, the motor is only kind of a bonus.
As you said, the chassis is key - that's why I doubt that the factory Honda boys would risk fines and penalties for an insignificant performance advantage. Are you still playing with bypass springs to this day, or have you given up on them? In my case, I achieved better results through careful clearance selection than I ever achieved through lightening the oil bypass spring.
QuoteHmmm... I seem to remember that on more than one occasion last year the "official factory" team borrowing and using Ohlins suspension components from the Erion squad. Split hairs if you must but one thing is for sure. The Erion team is every bit as much a full factory team as the "official" team is.
Which factory Honda bike/rider was using Ohlins parts from Erion? I would think that swapping component brands in the middle of a race weekend would make it exceptionally difficult to find a setup, after all of the testing that went into developing a setup around the old components.
As for splitting hairs, I don't think I ever claimed that Erion was suffering from a technical disadvantage because of a lack of factory support. All I said was that the Erion bikes are significantly different from the factory Honda bikes, and cited an example. If you think that's splitting hairs, then I'd gladly trade my Showa shock for that pretty, gold-anodized Ohlins of yours and we'll call it even. <g>
QuoteAs you said, the chassis is key - that's why I doubt that the factory Honda boys would risk fines and penalties for an insignificant performance advantage. Are you still playing with bypass springs to this day, or have you given up on them? In my case, I achieved better results through careful clearance selection than I ever achieved through lightening the oil bypass spring.
I don't. I didn't really then myself...engine builder did. Don't chase AMA stuff anymore...I consult. My motor was done by 4&6 this year, they did it to their specs...I can't tell one way or another, but it does go well with Power Mist Fuel and their work.
We did all of the other things too. Other tricks, anything we could think up.
As for fines and risk...
The factory teams have been running quick shifters on their Supersport bikes before the rules allowed them...
HRC black boxes were being used in the early 90's...
We could go on, but the AMA is funded by whom? The manufacturers...when the rules need to be bent, they bend for the manufacturers...
I would'nt call him factory, although I bet some of them give him a lot of breaks. He's like a franchise. Hes got the money and the resources to get what he wants, and can write it off as an expence come preseason.
QuoteHas anyone else seen what Pridmore has under his tank and fairing? His Attack Suzuki and his crew are just as serious and as organized as any other team in the paddock. If he's not factory, he's definitely the next best thing.
QuoteWhich factory Honda bike/rider was using Ohlins parts from Erion? I would think that swapping component brands in the middle of a race weekend would make it exceptionally difficult to find a setup, after all of the testing that went into developing a setup around the old components.
As for splitting hairs, I don't think I ever claimed that Erion was suffering from a technical disadvantage because of a lack of factory support. All I said was that the Erion bikes are significantly different from the factory Honda bikes, and cited an example. If you think that's splitting hairs, then I'd gladly trade my Showa shock for that pretty, gold-anodized Ohlins of yours and we'll call it even. <g>
Duhamel and Hayden both. Why would it be exceptionally hard to find a set up? Since the Erion team was using them - a simple transfer of set up information etc and the "official Honda" team is well on it's way towards being where they need to be for the weekend. Difficult or not the fact is that it happened.
I don't think I ever claimed that you claimed that Erion was suffering from technical disadvantages.
Erion bikes SIGNIFICANTLY different than the "official Honda" RC51's. ::) No way. Tell me why then that Bostrom Duhamel And Roberts all share set up advice etc and have an open book for each to see. Also, the Showa components they use are not even remotely close to what any of us can obtain and are every bit as expensive as the Ohlins stuff. The fact remains that Erion is every bit as much a full factory team as the "official" team is.
Guys,
The Erion bike is a full factory bike, and they ran Showa stuff when it worked better, and Ohlins stuff when it worked better. When Jake Won at Brainerd, he had Works ohlins fork internals. Kurtis rides on Ohlins stuff when he is on 600's
Miguel's bike ran OHLINS stuff last year. Trust me. Front and rear.
Honda wholely owns Showa, and Yamaha owns most of Ohlins, but a win is a win.
Kawasaki runs Ohlins, Yamaha does, Suzuki runs both. Go figure.
Guys,
The Erion bike is a full factory bike, and they ran Showa stuff when it worked better, and Ohlins stuff when it worked better. When Jake Won at Brainerd, he had Works ohlins fork internals. Kurtis rides on Ohlins stuff when he is on 600's
Miguel's bike ran OHLINS stuff last year. Trust me. Front and rear.
Honda wholely owns Showa, and Yamaha owns most of Ohlins, but a win is a win.
Kawasaki runs Ohlins, Yamaha does, Suzuki runs both. Go figure.
guys, there is a serious echo in here.
guys, there is a serious echo in here. ;D
Which one of Miguel's bikes had Ohlins parts? Last year Showa debut their new black carbon-nitride coating on Miguel's superbike forks, and I've never seen Ohlins on the American Honda bikes. I've got a picture somewhere of the Showa shock on Nicky SBK.
The Erion SBK uses Showa parts, because it's a factory bike. The Erion FX bike uses Ohlins, because it is really not a factory project, it's the Erion Racing companies best parts configured to win races. Because they are successful with their formula, they get the best suspension tuners and engine parts/mechanics to promote their own longevity.
New definition of privateer:
- one who is broke and has to race on credit or at least place well week-in and week-out just to keep coming to the track.
- one who has an annual budget under $125,000
- one who takes of a paddock space of no more than 600 sqft, trailer and truck included
- one who has no more than 4 people on the team or assisting him/her at one time
- one who has an A bike, and a B bike that's just for parts
- one who doesn't have Ohlins and Showa coming to your pit to make all of your suspension adjustments for you
- one who gets engine parts by begging, borrowing or using the old stand-by credit cards
Sean,
Miguel's 600 ran works Ohlins fork internals and shock. I have that bike in my garage right now, and I can assure you it has Ohlins on it.
The works Showa stuff you see on the superbikes is no better than the works Ohlins parts on the FX bike, so they run the Ohlins stuff.
What is a privateer? A guy that gets NO support from the factory at all. This rules out Corona, Attack, Erion, Bruce, but not most others.
No Limits and Annandale were simply customer bikes that you or anyone can buy. There was NOTHING special or ever A kit on either bike.
In fact, you could send your 954 to HRC and have them build it for about 200k, and it woudl be far more trick that the no limits bike if built to Suzuka spec.
The way you can tell the difference is WORKS or KIT parts. Kit you can buy, Works are not for sale to anyone at any price.Erion is on works parts, bruce has some, but mostly kit, Annandale and No limits have some kit parts and some modified production parts, Attack has works parts, corona has kit parts....
Factory vs non factory.... Works vs kit.
The Bruce, Erion and No Limits 954's were regular street bikes that anyone could buy. They were even delivered with street bodywork and equipment. Nothing very exotic went into their motors (Ti valves; Crane copies of HRC cams; JE, MTC or Wiseco pistons; Si-bronze seats; locally-sourced porting) and nothing exotic went into their chassis or suspensions (Ohlins Superbike forks and shock, Brembo or Nissin brakes). Granted, everything was expensive, but everything they were running was basically off-the-shelf.
This year, there was a change in the Honda support structure, leveling the playing field between the four factory-support teams: Erion, Bruce, NLMS and Annandale. I know for a fact that NLMS had access to proprietary Showa resources for their 600's, as well as access to HRC parts and documents.
TN123, how'd you get Miguel's bike? Was it a hand-me-down from a supported team like Synergy Racing Technologies. The team I was on last year bought a bike from them, which had a Showa shock. I saw Miguel's 1999 F4 at a Sothby's Auction two years ago. It had a lot of cool parts, including what I think was a works Showa shock. I don't remember exactly.
It was a gift to a friend of mine. the frame and the tank are different.
Tim, No Limits had acess to the same HRC stuff that ANYONE can buy, however, they did NOT at anytime have access to the HGA parts that are run on every Erion bike, and when Jake rode for Bruce, on that bike.
As far as they Erion and Bruce motors, they are done in house, and do not use Si-Bronze seats or regular ti valves, etc. There is an extensive HGA catalog for that bike, and the seat for example are Berrilium bronze, and the valves are Ti, but have a reduced stem and special head shape.
Annandale, Bruce and No Limits are basically customer teams, you coudl walk up to Kevion Erion and "buy" a team for a year for a few $$$ Thats what Bruce did, and Ann & Dale, and the Curtis's But the HGA catalog was never even seen by Medly or any of the group building the bikes, and the Erion bikes were built FROM them.
TN123: You are correct about the valve seats - I was typing in haste. Those seats were of course beryllium-bronze seats. (Si-bronze is a bearing and guide material.) However, I think you are mistaken about Ben Curtis' relationship with Kevin Erion. Granted, Ben's team is populated with many of Kevin's 2002 mechanics, but the teams are separate entities. In fact, Bruce relocated his shop to Whittier to further distance himself from Kevin's organization.
As for HGA, all of the 2002 Bruce 600's were HGA bikes, including Alex' bike, but they were just stock F4i's with Ohlins suspensions. The 954's were US street bikes. Also, the valves, pistons, cams, cranks, rods, forks, shocks, subframes, bodywork, swingarms, brakes, exhausts and triple clamps on the 954's were not HGA or HRC parts. I think the foot controls and shock linkages were OTS HRC parts.
People make a big deal about double-secret factory race parts, when they should be giving more credit to the riders who take these Frankenstein machines and make them fly, and to the mechanics and engineers who spend 20-hour days making sure that all the parts they have amassed play together as well as physically possible. As I'm sure you're aware, it takes more than bolt-on parts to create a well-prepared race bike, and it takes more than a well-prepared bike to win races and championships.
All,
I have to say I've really learned a lot from this thread. Thanks for chimming in.
Now if I could just get Super Dave to let me borrow his R6. Hmmmm ;D
LOL...in your dreams...
But really, it's not particularly special. It's an R6. It is cool though.
And Tim, I'll agree with you, it's not the motors. Bring one of those factory specials to a club race and give it to a local amateur, and they might be "confused" how it works.
But, admittely, in 1993 the HRC black boxes were everywhere for F2's, except in my garage...no money, no contact to get one...on money, so I didn't pursue it too.
Anyway, at one round, some of the top guys, Mike Smith and a couple guys, had to give up their box for ones that the AMA bought at a dealership. The field did tighten up at the front, noticeably. Regardless, there IS stuff that occurs at the top that is not in the interest of fair play. Anyone that races should be able to get something. So, if Honda's CBR600RR is not on the showroom floor available to buy, the Honda race team shouldn't be allowed to race it. As it is, rules are kind of a joke, and they only serve to make motorcycle racing somewhat of a family oriented farce.
http://www.amasuperbike.com/2003-Aug/030928a.htm
Kris,
I am good friends with Mr's Ko and Pegram, and trust me they were as privateer as it gets. MUCH more so than Pridmore ever would be, and on Michelins to boot. 80% of that budget dired up after FOntana, and the remainder fo the season was run out fo Mr. Kos pocket.
Try 2 tech's for one rider, vs 10 or more. How about NO enegine management. No Special parts, hell, when they finished on the podium, the bike was held together with Duct tape, as they didnt have fairings left to stick on the bike.
In MY opinion, the ONLY privateer podium in years was Pegram.
I was just providing the link. Read that today and remembered this thread. ;)
QuoteNew definition of privateer:
- one who is broke and has to race on credit or at least place well week-in and week-out just to keep coming to the track.
- one who has an annual budget under $125,000
- one who takes of a paddock space of no more than 600 sqft, trailer and truck included
- one who has no more than 4 people on the team or assisting him/her at one time
- one who has an A bike, and a B bike that's just for parts
- one who doesn't have Ohlins and Showa coming to your pit to make all of your suspension adjustments for you
- one who gets engine parts by begging, borrowing or using the old stand-by credit cards
And one who doesn't get a paycheck from someone to ride, they depend on what they win to get them to the next track. I know several that would qualify for this and one placed 9th in the superbike (he was actually tied for 8th last year in points...)
How much would one say it costs a "true" privateer to race, paying out of his/her own pocket say just one SS race at Road Atlanta? Tires (to be competative), Entry Fees (What are they in AMA?--surely they cant be $70, $50, $35..lol) I have always wondered this and imagine that a tire bill could get QUITE BIG.
You have to add the tires, the fuel, the entry fees, the lodging (if trailer not available), meals, water, etc. Oh and if you crash during practice or qualifying, all the parts needed to get going again. Depending on where the rider lives is also a big point. If they live on the east coast and a lot of the races are out here, it's not bad. There's a few on the west coast that can kill a privateer in gas and trying to get the bikes out there etc....
I know about the gas but was more interested in say the tire bill and cost of entry fees for privateers in AMA SS or Superbike, or even FX
Rough estimate of AMA week-end cost: Entry fees are about $220, Practice day runs around $200, tires for SS and SB races run about $1,500, fuel is about $300 - Total $2,220 before lodging, food, survival...This estimate does not include crashing out your bike and having to replace bike and/or pieces....
How do the privateers do it? Geez that is a lot compared to my meesly CCS entry fees. I wish AMA would level the field a little. I hear them factory and factory support boys get about a 40+ HP advantage. You really only see the same guys win week after week. Would make it more interesting..but I guess some of the top guys were once privateers.
Clutch,
There's a reason why most privateers run a Suzuki, and why the Superbike grids are the largest. Currently, I believe Suzuki pays back to 15th place and the SBK purse pays back to 35th. If you are lucky enough to get 15th place in SBK, you can make upwards of several thousand dollars. Add-in FX money and possible Superstock money for the same bike and you can definitely support yourself, at least to get to the next round.
Ahhh..ok. Now I know why they do that..makes sense to go where the money is and hell, Suzuki isnt that bad of a machine :)