This question is one I've been chewing on for some time now and a good point came out of a different thread/debate about suspension started by "Team_nuclear123" (sorry I don't know your real name)
He made an interesting point when he said:
"...you go SECONDS faster because the bike is doing the work, instead of you tryign to do the work you dont know you are doing...."
Which brings me to the question I want ot throw out to everyone.
How do you know when need to improve?
How do you know for example when it is "you are doing work you shouldn't be"?
Then, how do you know what it is you need to improve?
How do you uncover your faults?
How do you know that you are doing something wrong and you need to improve?
Do you rely on external people and indicators or is it internally drawn upon insights? A combination of both?
If your laptimes are not as fast as the fastest rider, obviously there's room for improvement. How do you learn or know what you need to improve?
Just thought it might be a good one to throw out there to see a range of responses as to how folks deal with this.
- Eric Arnold
#235 Pac Region
Here's my two cents....
QuoteHow do you know when need to improve?
I personally don't believe that there is any point in a racing career when you can say.... "I am the best I have nothing left to improve on. Riding technique, the bike, the combinations are endless.
QuoteHow do you know for example when it is "you are doing work you shouldn't be"?
Sometimes you don't know the answer to this question. However talking to the tire guys about how your tires are working for you - talking with another person who races the same type bike - or taking an acredited racing school could help uncover some problems.
QuoteThen, how do you know what it is you need to improve?
Once again.... talking to the tire guys about how your tires are working for you - talking with another person who races the same type bike - or taking an acredited racing school could help uncover some problems.
QuoteHow do you uncover your faults?
By being open to suggestions to others. You may find that taking a different line or rolling on the throttle differently may reduce your lap times.
QuoteHow do you know that you are doing something wrong and you need to improve?
Unless you are winning every class.... There is room for improvement.
QuoteDo you rely on external people and indicators or is it internally drawn upon insights? A combination of both?
Both
QuoteHow do you learn or know what you need to improve?
See above....
Dawn :)
I was in much the same situation as you back in '95 after I completed my licensing school at BHF. I was wondering what now? How am I going to know what to do to improve? I didn't have the luxury of knowing someone already involved in racing to help point me in the right direction, so I had to learn the hard way. I don't suggest doing it the way I did (by myself) because the time wasted and frustration generated can definately make your racing experience not very enjoyable.
What I can suggest is to take the advice you recieve from everyone with a bit of caution. There are alot of people out there willing to give you advice, but knowing which advice to use is the more important issue. Of course taking schools taught by reputable instructors is going to be your best bet, though this advice will cost you upfront it will reap great returns in the near future (if you do what they say). A 2nd benefit of this is becoming freinds with the instructors and the advice they will most likely continue to give you. Often times another place to get good advice is from the front running experts, befriend some of them and get their opinions on what you need to do to improve. Something to keep in mind is that most likely someone is only able to give you advice on how to get as fast as they are! If they knew how to go faster, then why aren't they? Along those lines I will tell you that even though I have consistently finished in the back this season (due to non-racing limitations on my racing) I have been a consistent top 5 finisher in the past in the Heavy Weight and Unlimited classes.
My personal suggestions would be this:
(1) Absolutely the most important thing you can do to your motorcycle is to get your suspension set-up to your weight and current riding ability (yes, it most likely will have to be changed as you get faster). This should include correct springs and re-valving F&R (also suspension sag settings). This is the #1 universal suggestion you will probably recieve as far as modifying your bike, don't question it, DO IT!
(2) Get gridded at the back so you don't get mowed over in turn 1. Starting at the back will allow you to see what others are doing at a slightly less intense pace. This will also get you use to passing people that are slower than you and you will be moving forward in the results, not backwards like would most likely be the case if you started in the front. I did this for my entire first year and gained alot of passing experience and also wouldn't get passed myself until later in the race when the leaders would lap me.
(3) Enter a MINIMUM of 3 classes per event that you attend. I was usually the fastest in my 4th - 6th races of an event and felt much more in sync with the bike and the track then. The 1st couple classes beginners enter per event are usually more of a getting use to the track situation than they are for self-improvement.
Hope this helps you out in some way. Welcome to what will most likely become an uncontrollable addiction! Have fun!
Quote Welcome to what will most likely become an uncontrollable addiction!
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Good questions.
First, I will belittle this whole sport.
Riders don't stay around long enough. Average is two to two and a half years. Riders run out of money, and some vendors and "helpers" that claim to have knowledge suck the money out of the riders pockets. You NEED tires, but you don't need engine kits or aluminum bolt kits when you're starting out.
Knowledge is power. Few riders learn how the suspension works. But there are few that can actually explain it. And I guess that goes backs to seeking out those that can help you. Most fast expert riders can't explain how something works compared to a hole in the ground. And even then, it's hard to explain how it works.
How do you know if you have faults? If you're not running near lap record times, then you have to look to see what you can improve. Even world champions are looking to improve themselves and their bike set up.
Experience can help, but it can be a longer road than learning from someone who really knows and can explain it to you. Dale Quarterley was my mentor when I was AMA Pro racing. I learned a lot just working around him, working during Superbike practice and qualifying, and being able to get feed back.
Lots of schools sell you confidence..."Yeah, you look pretty good out there." That blows! Sometimes you need to be told that you CAN do something differently, that you need to put your foot HERE, and that you shouldn't do THIS with your elbow. That is where real knowledge comes from.
QuoteLots of schools sell you confidence..."Yeah, you look pretty good out there." That blows! Sometimes you need to be told that you CAN do something differently, that you need to put your foot HERE, and that you shouldn't do THIS with your elbow. That is where real knowledge comes from.
If I pay good money to learn technique and then get smoke blown up my kilt I'm asking for a refund. If I were MotoGP champ I wouldn't be asking how do I make a right hander at speed...
I took golf lessons a couple of years ago and that is exactly what the dufus said, "Good swing, do that again..." I couldn't hit a ball straight twice in a row if I tried to! By the last day of class I was ready to smack the dude. I ask him what your hands should be doing just before, during and right after ball impact and he couldn't tell me. I knew it was over then...
Eric:
It is nearly impossible to learn and improve without help. Without outside help one usually keeps practicing the same mistakes over and over. One may go faster, but they are still making mistakes and are encroaching into an area where serious bodily harm may happen.
Go to reputable riding school where they will point out your errors as well as your good points.
If you are friends with a fast rider (who isn't a crasher) follow him around during track days.
Ask the track day instructors what they see in your riding.
Take your time learning, don't expect to set track records too early.
Take every thing you hear with a grain of salt. ;) ;)
Good luck.
twg
Bad habbits are learned early. With all the track day programs out there, I see only a few riders that control those groups that have had real, down and dirty experience. They may give you a couple of simple ideas, but their riding is stagnate riding around it track days, or having only raced club races...ok, maybe a token AMA race.
You learn to go fast by going slow .... that means take your time and don't rush into anything. You're not going to be Rossi the first year or 2nd, 3rd and on ad nauseum. Baby steps will turn into long strides if you have patience. ::)
Do plenty of track walks. Break the tracks down into sections and learn each one, slowly join them together and they will eventually flow together. The better you know each track the faster you will get at each one. :D
Remember you are not racing the guy in front of you or in back of you, or anyone else on the track. You are trying to get around each track as fast as you can. It makes no difference where you are in the pack. You are learning and it doesn't matter where you finish right now. :o
Keep meticulous records of everything so that each event isn't new. You will have notes for starting points at each track to rely on and make adjustments from them.
Last .... remember to have fun!! Don't plan to be the next AMA pro and ruin your fun by trying to be. Too many guys come into this planning on being the fastest guy on the circuit in the first year. When it doesn't happen they lose the fun of the competition and quit like Dave said. Give it time and enjoy the ride! ;D
Buy lots of pictures. That way you can actually visualize what you need to work on and see what you are doing good at. And if you keep buying them at every race, you will be able to see your improvements! Also it's a good ego booster to show all your friends!!! :)
Something which I have done at a number of different tracks which has helped me obtain a better perspective and ultimately made me go faster.
Take 3 laps, ride the first on the inside 18" of the track. Ride the second on the outside 18", and the third dead down the middle.
Then take 2 or 3 (usually this takes 4 or 5 before you can get it right) laps using NO brakes. Yes, NONE.
You have a different view of the track after all of these. You notice where bumps are, slight elevation changes, and where the track width can work for/against you.
Don't know if it will work for you, but it's helped me many times...
All the above is great advice. Do track days. You get LOTS more seat time and it also gives you time to mess with suspension, talk to people and this is a non-pressure sorta deal. Go out for 20 minutes at a time and run the whole session or come in early to make adjustments, take a brake ect. I do a lot more track days than I do race since I feel I need more experience. Average track day runs around $130 - $170 pending on club and track. I also, for some reason, find my lap times faster at track days than racing. I think it is because I am more relaxed at a track days and not as tense. Most of all have fun and take your time. Dont try to be Hayden your first race weekend. Patients and it will happen sooner or later. Many of the top experts were once backmarkers..everyone has to start somewhere.
Ok, I completely disagree.
Trackdays allow you ride around and fiddle. You ride a whole lot of miles on your tires while paying $130 to $170 a day.
You burn up the tires. $$$
Fuel. $$$
Still costs a good amount of. $$$
The trackday crowds are nice, but there is no real seat of racing knowledge. Unless you're doing a track day with Al Luddington, Dale Quarterley, Rich Doan...which direction do you go? Do you have any magical intuition that will guide you on your set up?
I learned what I learned by racing at the professional level and developing vintage race bikes for guys. The vintage bikes were the hardest, because I had to deal with a chassis that was over loaded by the enomous strain that current production tires traction have. At the pro level, I worked with Dale Quarterley. I learned lots just by watching the process that we'd go through in qualifying, etc.
Back to the track day...it's a brisk pace, and you get comfortable with a rhythm. Unless you're really chasing your times, you get stuck. Doing my school on Thursdays makes it very, very hard to break a rhythm for the races on SAT SUN...not to mention that I work with guys on Friday...then on into SAT SUN.
I would recommend that a racer, or even just a rider as the case is this weekend, sit down and work with someone like myself for half the time on the track and learn a better foundation of riding and set up.
You can learn to fish...
or you can be just fed fish...
I was thinking about this topic today and recalled the 2 most significant advancements I ever had in my racing. This is what happened to me and is just for example.
The 1st advancement was during a Team Suzuki Endurance School at Road America back in 1996. That year they had a sweet deal with Suzuki that allowed you to take their class for free if you purchased a brand new '96 Suzuki GSXR 750. I learned a few things in the classroom section but had an unexpected situation arise out on the track during the 2nd session. There was a rule that you had to pass on the outside if you were a racer (I was 1 of only 6 in the class- along with 54 street riders!). I was going into the 'kink' when this guy stuffs me on the inside during the school on a 600 (turns out it was 1 of the PRO riders acting as a track coach who was there for the NASB races). Well since my bike was faster than his I stayed with him and stuffed him in Canada Corner, then it was on! We did cat and mouse for that session and the next one also. I learned so many lines by following him and trying to pass him back and forth that I noticed in my races that weekend that I was averaging 12 seconds a lap faster than the last time I had been there ( I was a 1st year amateur and went from 2:53 laps to 2:41's).
The 2nd advancement was when my brakes almost completely failed while attempting to brake for turn 1 at BHF. I was able to slow the bike some, but not enough to make the turn, so I asked myself if I wanted to go off into the heavily overgrown (pronounced small trees) run-off area or attempt the turn and hopefully low-side it. I tried the turn and made it without crashing, I was glad to say the least! While continueing to race I was thinking about the incident and was recalling the fact that not only had I made it, but how smooth and controlled it was. This was because my suspension was now able to stay loaded after being compressed by the corner load and wasn't bobbing up and down like I had previously experienced with lower suspension loads. The people that were timing me said that I had a really fast lap in the middle of the race followed by consistently faster times than the 1st half of that race.
Both of those situations made me a faster racer and expanded my knowledge at the same time.