Ok, I was talking to Doug Polen the other day, and we were discussing bike set up, etc...
We hatched a little idea, and wanted to see if anyone here had any interest....
Would anyone be interested in having their bike set up to current AMA supersport numbers, then fine tuned by Doug Polen.
The idea would be that you woudl be given a complete setup sheet, a lap time listing of Dougs times with that set up, and a bit of information on what you could do to get closer to Doug's times on your bike, gearing, springs, etc what if anything needed to be done.
The idea sprang from being at a track day and seeing SO many bikes that were set up TOTALLY wrong, and how much improvement could be felt by some simple changes and proper ride height, sag, preload, etc.
Anyone interested? Not for free but reasonable. At a local so cal track day.
Let me know here....
Damn, no one is interested in having Doug set up your bike????
I guess everyone must be a lot faster than Doug is
buying a "cookie-cutter" sheet from someone isn't going to do much. Setups depend greatly on the rider.
Repeated and continued interaction with a tuner is the only way to go...
When your tuner understands exactly what YOU mean when you say the bike wants to fall or wallows, etc, then real tuning can occur.
Sure, gearing and general sag comments are useful, but I don't know that I'd personally pay for them...
(hey, you asked...)
Maybe I mis-stated what the idea is...
Doug will not only set it up for you, but ride it, and fine tune it..
Set up is set up. If it works, it works, the whole idea for this came about because so many people have no idea what THE set up really is. We got a new bike, I called a friend who is a crew-cheif for one of the factory teams and asked him what the number were for the bike. he gave me THE numbers. there isn't any real variation track to track, when the bike works, it works, when it dont, it dont....
Remember back to Doohan. Alex would just cruise around all practice long, then run whatever Mick was running and SUPRISE, it was right on the money...
The other aspect of it was that if you saw what Doug could do on your bike with the proper set up, you know just how fast the bike will go outright, then you can just work on your skills to get up to that speed.
IE. Laguna, Doug sat down with Ducati Austin looked at the data, said change this, change that, do this. they made three changes, and Gio dropped 3/4 sec in tyhe next session with no more effort. Bussei was blown away at how easy it was for him to ride.
Anyways, thought I would make the offer....
Where is he doing this? Will TZ250's be included?
Quotethere isn't any real variation track to track,
Ok, I'm no expert, but I do have GMD Computrack do my bike set up. To say there is no real variation track to track sounds a bit off to me. Why do you suppose the factory teams test and test and test at each track? To get the right set up.
having someone else, be it a great rider or not, tune your bike and ride it is all well and good for the guy setting it up and riding it, but when the owner gets on it, the bike isn't set up for him, or his riding style. Granted sag is sag, and if someone doesn't have that right, then at least they would benifit from that, as long as it was the actual owner of the bike sitting on it while the thing was adjusted.
I'm not busting on your theory, just saying that there are already dedicated businesses out there catering to the actual rider, and not "just what works for them will work for you"
Just my .02
You're assuming I ride like Doug Polen, which I'm pretty sure I don't. By that I refer to riding style, not how fast Doug is compared to me. (I'm waaaaay slower obviously).
If Doug's riding style is like mine, AND he is used to riding a bike like mine, AND he likes he bike's handling characteristics to act like mine, then it might be of some benefit, but if not I'm not sure how much benefit it would be.
Here's an example. One of my teammates is much faster than me. He prefers his bikes setup on the softer side, lots of sag, softer compression settings a somewhat fast (IMHO) rebound and such. Another teammate who is just as fast likes a stiff suspension setup. They can't go fast on each other's bikes.
It might be a good general setup class for newbies who don't know anything about suspension, to at least get them in the ballpark, but in the end you have to find your own way down this road, in my opinion anyway.
- Eric
#235 Pac Region
I attended a Visionsports Riding School and had Dave Rosno ride my bike. He made some recommendation on setup and it truly made a difference for me. This kind of thing may not work for everyone, but it helped me take countless second off my laptimes almost as soon as I started riding it again.
my $0.02
Ditto what Shawn said... Dave rode my TL and we set the bike up based on a combination of what he was experiencing and what I needed to be able to manage the bike. As my skillls increase and my "style" develops, we will fine-tune and adjust as needed.
It is very cool that Polen is interested in working with folks and offering his expertise.
Eric, you are missing the point of what I am saying.. and this is from Dougs mouth, and I have seen it work with several riders, including at least one that posts here.
You may prefer a specific setup, but if it varies a lot from optimal, you are just kidding yourself, and over riding the problems in the bike. or perhaps that you need to change you style, or make some fairly radical changes to the whole thing, but when you look at the AMA, WSB or Motogp field, you dont see one guy sitting backwards or dragging his foot like a dirt-tracker, what works, works.
Dan, I worked on the very factory teams that do all that testing for many years.. and we didnt test to find a set-up, we tested to correct problems that arrose from the rider over riding the bike to find speed. I can tell you the set up on our new ZX6RR, stright from Tommy Haydens bike, and I can also tell you that the clickers on his bike dont move more than 1 or 2 either way at any track. Wheelbase stays fixed, ride-height, sag, spring rate, preload all stay constant on a supersport bike. one or two clicks here or there, thats it.
Superbikes are another story, and they run pretty much the same setup, but always try NEW parts to make things better, but the baseline stays pretty much constant. Between Doug and myself we have worked on 14 World Championship teams and 8 AMA Superbike teams, and I will tell you this is just the way it works...
If you got on Hackings's R6, you would hate it, it woudl feel so stiff, you could feel every bump, condition change, pavement changhe, etc. As soon as you started to push the bike becomes a magic carpet, and you just cruise along, because the bike works...
I guess We'll just be seeing you at Vegas for the races... Joey Lombardo, Tommy Hayden's crew chief will be there with us on Sunday, helping out with the bike., you can come by and ask him about set-up variation in a AMA supersport bike....
What I am hearing you say is that there is one optimal way to set a bike up and that is independent of the rider. If that's not what you're saying then please be clear. If it is then I will disagree with you.
Several top AMA riders all ride R6's for instance. Are you saying they all have identical setups, or should have identical setups?
When I look in an AMA pit I see lots of different springs, forks being revalved, changes made to accomodate various tracks, etc. Are you saying you setup a bike to run at Road America or Brainerd the same as you do to run at Pikes Peak or Sears?
Just watching Bayliss and Xaus running last year showed the variations if riding styles and techniques, I would thnk their bikes were setup significantly different from each other.
I agree having someone who has expertise in suspension setup check over a bike is a good idea, I have friends who's style is similar to mine and whose weight is similar to mine check me when I have a question. But to think that there is one ideal way to setup a bike which is good for all riders, and the rider has to conform to the bike's setup rather than the two finding a common ground doesn't make sense to me.
Or am I missing something in your last post?
- Eric
Eric, I am saying that all three factory AMA Yamaha 600's have nearly the same setup. Remeber that Bucky, Hacker and Gobert have different weight, and therefore different springs, valving etc, but mostly the bike stays the same, track to track, day to day.
You may run a slightly softer setup at Road America, and a bit less highspeed compression at Brainerd and Mid O, but the majority of the factors just dont change.
Think of it this way - a production bike with production rules means that you can ONLY chage the following (Jason Pridmore and Hypercycle fans turn your heads)
Wheelbase, Rideheight, Spring rate, spring preload, spring length, valving, shock length, and on the new Kawasaki, swingarm pivot. Thats it.
So what do you change? What should you? My rider weighs about 140# wet, we run a .8kg spring front and a 101nm spring rear on a production Ohlins and reworked production valving. Our last race was at Buttonwillow, next is Vegas.
Here are my questions....
1. Should I go to a lighter spring for a bumpier track?
2. How about adding rear ride height to get the bike to turn better at shorter tracks like Streets of willow?
3. As he gets faster, should I make the bike stiffer to suit his riding improvement?
4. what else can I change and stay legal?
Answers
1. No, once sag is set, sag is set. Remembering of course that if you need more than 10mm of prelaod to achieve the desired sag, you need to run a stiffer spring, or maybe just one stiffer.
2. Once the rear ride height is set, addign rear or lowerign frint will change to balance and greatly effect rear wheel traction, and the riders ability to finish the corner on the throttle.
3. No, the bike should be set up properly from the get go, allowing him to learn how to ride the bike(a bike, any bike) in its propper form. Why ask someoen to relearn how to ride to suit the bike?
4. Nothing, up until you get caught.
The riders only input on setup on a supersport bike is a few click in damping, assuming everything else works.
The valving, springs, etc that you see being swapped out are pretty much all works type stuff, and is 99% reserved for superbike parts. all the stuff you see on the pit wall is a "lets try this and see what it does" effort, which means they are trying to fix a problem.
Sears and Pikes get a slightly softer valving, but the change is mostly gearing related.
I guees what I trying to say is that the problem isnt with the bike, its with you. You need to change your riding style to fit a properly setup bike.not try to get the bike to fill the hole sin your technique. Thats the curse fo the clubracer. They always balme the equipment, but its the rider that needs the tuneup.
You mention Troy and Xaus, you are in a whole different league. Thats superbike and EVERYTHING can be, and is adjusted. More than you could even imagine.
Heres the gist of the whole deal. I can spend an hour setting up yoru bike, Doug can ride it and we make some changes, and you go SECONDS faster because the bike is doing the work, instead of you tryign to do the work you dont know you are doing....
Sorry for all the typo's its WAy late for me
So from what your said here:
"I guees what I trying to say is that the problem isnt with the bike, its with you. You need to change your riding style to fit a properly setup bike.not try to get the bike to fill the hole sin your technique. ...."
I draw the logical conclusion that there is one proper setup for a bike and all riders need to change themselves to accomodate it? I don't think that's what you mean but is seems like it.
When you are setting up a rider's bike, do you ask the rider questions and solicit feedback? Or do you set the bike up the way you think it should be and then when they come in and say "it won't finish a corner well" do you tell them to change their riding style? I don't think so. You draw on your knowledge of suspension, the track, the rider and the tires being used and you make a change to the bike. Otherwise the need for adjustable suspension would not exist.
First let me agree that as a rider and racer I have a long way to go skills-wise. But don't assume I don't know how to setup a bike or know folks who do, or that my bike's suspension is improperly setup. The other thing is that because I have a skills gap to other racers, AMA pro's in particular, I cannot take advantage of the setup they have and in fact may not be able to ride it at all until I get to a certain skill level. I can't push Hacking's R6 to the point where it stops being stiff and starts riding like a "magic carpet". Until I get to that point (if ever) my bike will need to be setup differently that Hacking's.
I would agree that for "X" rider on "Y" type of bike running "Z" tires at "W" track there is an optimal set of valving, settings and springs. But look at all the variables there. You and Doug may set my bike up great to run Dunlop 208 GP's, what if I switch to Michelin's? Now we need to make a set of changes to accomodate tire diameter differences, sidewall flexibility differences, etc.
Are you and Doug going to be changing springs, re-valving forks and shocks for each of these riders whose suspension you're going to optimize? And if Doug weighs 150 lbs and I weigh 225 how is Doug going to know if the bike is setup right for me by riding it? He can extrapolate some basic ideas but my proper setup would be too stiff for him, for instance.
Can you and Doug improve on the average rider's suspension setup with what you're doing? Most likely yes, esp. most of the riderss you see at a trackday. Will it have value to those types of riders? Also yes.
What I'm saying here is that you and Doug can only take a bike so far on your own. In the end I the rider have to give you the tuner feedback. If you think I as a rider can't give good feedback to you because I am always the problem, not the bike's setup, then that's where we disagree.
- Eric
Eric,
One last time here....
Im sure you have a great deal of riding talent, and are very competent in setting up your bikes suspension, gearing, etc, but I can assure you that unless you current setup came off a factory AMA bike, you are simply off the mark.
When I set up a bike, I first set it up to whatever is current on the AMA grid. Then I set up the rider, showing them how to position themselves, how not to sit on the seat (you wouldnt belive how many people sit down going around a corner!) Then I have them do some laps. Before I even ask them a question, I look at the tires, check the "analog data" that the suspension gives me, and I can tell what the bike is doing, and what the rider is doin wrong. I can also tell you form experience that 90% of all club racer set up issues stem from the rider, and not the bike. If you are runnign at a 80% pace, sittign on the seat, with your head on the topside of the bike, how can you tell me the bike "wont finish a corner" YOu simply arent going fast enough to make me believe that you are on the gas so hard, that you are topping out the front suspension, minimizing the contact patch, and pushing the front end under throttle pickup. Ill call bullshit. Its more that you dont have a reference point far enough ahead, are holding on to tight, and are tensing up and holding your breath that is making the bike refuse to steer. Not setup related.
A good friend fo mine has Miguels 600 from last year. When we got the bike it was as Miguel rode it at Laguna yast year, right down to the bodywork. When he first rode it, he hated, saying it was stiff, harsh, etc. Once he learned to ride it harder, he saw the need for the firmer setup, and steped up his ridoing quite a bit. Now he loves the bike, but he had to open his mind to the idea that he may have been wrong about how a bike is supposed to feel, never having ridden a proper factory 600 before. Now he wont go back.
How does DOug knwo what is the correct setup for you? You ARE kididng me right? Doug Polen, 4x WORLD champion? The best tire tester Dunlop has ever seen? DO I really need to answer this? Suffice to say that Doug has forgot more about setup, riding, and going fast that you or I will ever know. It doesnt matter what your weight is, mine is 270 in gear, and he can push on my bike and tell me if the sag is wrong.. no joke.
If Doug can improve Bussei's set up by looking over the data, im quite sure he can improve a club racers, form the begginer to the top expert, without much effort.
I guess what Im saying is that more oftne than not, the rider needs as much tuning as the bike. And THAT is what were are offering...
How much is 3 or 4 seconds a lap worth to you? Thats about what we have gotten with the fats guys, 7-8 seconds for the beginers... EASY. Hell, I think Simon was soemthign like 10 seconds a lap faster after working with Doug...
I guess you need to take a few things into account
1. Most (99.9%) of the club racers out there dont knwo HOW to ride. They ride fast, and some very well, but they dont know HOW. I mean like 30-40 laps all within a half a second or so of each other.
2. Most bikes, even most CCS experts are FAR off the setup mark. I know, every club racer know better than the AMA guys, but the majority of the guys with access to the factory setup, run THAT setup.
3. If your bike was properly setup, it exposes your weaknesses as a rider, and in order to progress, you must fill those gaps. This is a hard thing for a lot of riders to take, and because of that, they never make progress.
4. There are a bunch of terms used in the AMA ans WSB/MotoGP circles that I now hear in the paddock and the bench a lot, even though the rider has never really experienced it. It sounds great to say the tire was "all lit up" but unless you look like AAron Yates in the Dunlop tv spot, it WASNT.
5. Tires. Tires can be your best friend or worst enemy, so learn how to read them, they are the sotorybook of your race/practice, etc.
In any event, if you think you can benefit from the experience of a WSB, AMA and Werld Endurace Champion one on one, and woudl like yoru bike to be set up by an WSB and AMA factroy team tech, let us know. If you know better than we do, please dont pass us to close when you smoke by us.
;)
Quotebut I can assure you that unless you current setup came off a factory AMA bike, you are simply off the mark.
I'll agree. There are many things that are built into the manufacturers bikes that we'll seldom know. There is a finite window of opportunity for it all to work.
That window IS small. Keep the effective length of the swingarm similar at all times so as not to change the set up.
QuoteI can also tell you form experience that 90% of all club racer set up issues stem from the rider, and not the bike.
Perhaps, but we're back to the problem of initial set up; few club racers are knowledgeable about anything related to their suspension. So, they react to the feedback that the bike is giving them, whether they know it or not. Once you get them in the ball park, then they feel comfortable trying to do the correct things rather than trying to survive.
Most club road racers are street riders with terrible bad habbits that they have gained from street riding and track days. Seems as though most track day control riders don't have enough experience racing to understand correct foot or body position, so they continue to push poor technique to their crowd.
QuoteHow does DOug knwo what is the correct setup for you? You ARE kididng me right? Doug Polen, 4x WORLD champion? The best tire tester Dunlop has ever seen? DO I really need to answer this? Suffice to say that Doug has forgot more about setup, riding, and going fast that you or I will ever know. It doesnt matter what your weight is, mine is 270 in gear, and he can push on my bike and tell me if the sag is wrong.. no joke.
You might have to tell some. When I was starting out (1987) I remember watching Doug. I have videos even from then. Doug is gifted.
I think the resistance that you're getting is related to people learning knowledge; they want to learn the process. Additionally, some riders do not possess the coordination or reaction time to necessarily ride a Doug Polen or Miguel set up. They might always need something less than optimum. They may get up to speed over a long period of time.
Example: I ride Kim's bike and it works well for me. Gearing is good. However, for Kim, the gearing is no good because in the state that she is in with her comfort in riding, etc., she needs different gearing. Alas, the different gearing works for her.
Quote2. Most bikes, even most CCS experts are FAR off the setup mark. I know, every club racer know better than the AMA guys, but the majority of the guys with access to the factory setup, run THAT setup.
Yes, if I had the set up info, I would incorporate it.
Quote3. If your bike was properly setup, it exposes your weaknesses as a rider, and in order to progress, you must fill those gaps. This is a hard thing for a lot of riders to take, and because of that, they never make progress.
Agreed. And that's part of the resistance. Club racers still want to experience racing. But the club scene isn't like it was when Doug was a regular on the Suzuki Cup trail in the late 80's. I think that when I was racing, we were all looking to try to get a ride, go faster, get Suzuki money, etc. Now, the age demographic has gotten older and riders are really there for the fun of it. Do I miss the old way? Yes and no.
QuoteIn any event, if you think you can benefit from the experience of a WSB, AMA and Werld Endurace Champion one on one, and woudl like yoru bike to be set up by an WSB and AMA factroy team tech, let us know. If you know better than we do, please dont pass us to close when you smoke by us.
Well, then you have to give us more info...what, where, when, how much?
Add your name to your signature, please.
Well, they say the proof is in the pudding and I'm willing to check it out if it's all you say it is. I'll be at T-Hill for the Aug race on the Friday open test day, if you're there and want to check the bike over, make the suggestions, tell me what I'm doing wrong as a rider, etc I'm open to it. I know I need improvement all over the place and you may be correct. If it works I'll throw some cash your way. If not then that'll settle the debate.
Who are you and if you're there maybe I'll find you?
- Eric
#235
this thread is spooooooop. ;D
as spoop filled as the transponder one. ;)
QuoteIf it works I'll throw some cash your way. If not then that'll settle the debate.
Who are you and if you're there maybe I'll find you?
- Eric
#235
Not sure who you're directing this too...
Regardless, the cost of learning that kind of experience pales in comparison to what you'd probably be charged, even if it were "a lot".
I was directing it to Team_Nuclear_123, don't know who he/she is.
- Eric
Team_Nuclear_123 . . . I'm in complete agreement with everything you said. You can throw me in the group of Club racers that don't know where to start with suspension setup. That's why I just sent my forks and shock off to Traxxion and I'm hoping they provide setup information when they send them back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anyone at CCS SW events that rebuilds suspension and gives racer support afterwards similar to what Max @ Traxxion does for WERA.
I had a friend telling me how much cheaper it would be to have the suspension rebuilt by someone local here that he knows but I'm pretty sure they have no clue as to what the AMA guys are running . . . that's why I sent it off to Max.
Anyway, I will not be in Vegas but I will be running the rest of the SW CCS region and hopefully a WSMC race or two by the end of the year. Let me know if you'll be at one of these events or a trackday where we could work together. You can e-mail me at matt@bmgracing.com.
PS - If the Simon you worked with is Simon with one of those overpriced Ducatis, let him know he needs to shave a few more seconds off . . . jk Simon!
BMG man
Yes, I could do with shaving a few more seconds and few more pounds off ;D You're almost making me drive the 1600 mile round trip to Phoenix again to see your new GSXR beast in action.
Doug didn't look at the set-up on my bike but certainly helped my riding a great deal. I would certainly credit him as being the one that moved me from being an medium intermediate track day rider to someone having a chance in amateur racing.
I rode the 996 as it came (probably set up for a 130lb swarthy Italian, which is isn't me) until I got fast enough to notice the suspension differences, or rather lots of bumps that I had not noticed before at slower speeds.
Munroe Motors in San Francisco took the base settings from their AMA Pro Thunder 748, adjusted for my err..hum...weight difference and the bike handles like a dream.
So, to finally respond to the point of this thread - if someone that knows what they are doing can baseline the bike so that it can be fine tuned it's worth doing IMHO
See y'all in Vegas