Anyone experience this weekend after weekend? Am I the only one to complain about passing under waving yellow? For the past two weekends, one of my races had a crash in turn one and on lap two, approaching with caution, getting passed mid turn (not under braking). Where does the NO PASSING start / finish and why are corner workers not reporting this? Twice I've given up a position or so doing the right thing.
-brent
it is supposed to start from the flag station and finish at the place of the incident. If they do a waving yellow at station 1 and the crash is somewhere in turn 1, I can see it is hard for them to judge it is legal or not. I know it is best to be cautious when you see a yellow, but if you slow down, you could be passed on the way to the flagging station, or someone may time it so they will pass you right as you come pass the incident. I think they best thing to do when you see a yellow is to be mindful of an incident in the next corner and approach with caution, but do not slow down at all, unfortunately. It is a risk you take. But if there is really something wrong, like oil on track, or debris, I think you will see the debri flag as well. I suppose just make sure you don't crash. I think if there is really something wrong wtih the corner involved and you can't pass through at normal speed, they would red flag it.
i suppose you could always protest and perhaps get the spot you lost back?
Quotei suppose you could always protest and perhaps get the spot you lost back?
I wanted to before, and the referree told me that if there is in fact a fraction, corner workers would have called it in, if they didn't call it in, they wouldn't have a record of it and wouldn't be able to make a call afterwards, basiclly, it is not protestable.
QuoteI wanted to before, and the referree told me that if there is in fact a fraction, corner workers would have called it in, if they didn't call it in, they wouldn't have a record of it and wouldn't be able to make a call afterwards, basiclly, it is not protestable.
Exactly...this time I actually pointed it out while it was occuring. If they didn't see that, I have no clue as to what they were looking at ??? I could care less about the position; probably would have passed me anyway, but it's more about safety. If racers know their never going to get called on this, they basically will ignore it every single time.
I was taught NO passing as soon as a waving yellow is visible. You are to get a hand in the air and let the folks in back of you know you are coming off race pace. Slow to a prudent speed until you no longer see a waving yellow ahead.
This is a hobby, this is club racing, not the WSB title fight. The waving yellow is telling you something is dead ahead, in the race line and you need to avoid it. Please start putting SAFETY first and leave the puny, ill-developed ego's at home!!! >:(
Sorry for my rant, but I have already read about far too many accidents this year. I am almost glad I don't have the cash to get out there just yet... :'(
bring that up with Art next time you go race. He listens to our concerns, maybe they will stress that at riders meeting, and stress that with corner workers. I mentioned that the time between 2 waves were too long in the GTU race and they shortened it.
Please note that only the corner cpt has the ability to talk to the tower. The flagger can only listen to all the calls on the track via the head set.
So If and when I do and have seen passing on a waving yellow I can only write down the bike number and turn it in to the corner capt.
Going into turn 7 at BHF, I'd decided to pass the guy in front of me by out braking him. As I'm coming alone side of him, I look up to see a waving yellow flag. A rider had just crashed in that turn, so the flag was just being displayed. I finished the pass because I was allready comitted to the line I had choosen. I went down the front straight, wondering if I would be penilized. I wasn't. Was it because the corner worker didn't see what happend or did I make a legal pass? Just wondering.
The current CCS rule is no passing from the position of the flag (not when you see the flag) - a line drawn from the flag 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the track, until you pass the incident. It is not really a good idea to slow significantly for a waving yellow, you don't know what is happening behind you. The rule book does not require you to slow, just to have your bike under control and be able to take evasive action if necessary.
QuoteThe current CCS rule is no passing from the position of the flag (not when you see the flag) - a line drawn from the flag 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the track, until you pass the incident. It is not really a good idea to slow significantly for a waving yellow, you don't know what is happening behind you. The rule book does not require you to slow, just to have your bike under control and be able to take evasive action if necessary.
100% correct...
and KC124 you were in the right., if you are commited and the corner workers can tell that ., there is no penalty., it would actually be unsafe for you to try to slow to NOT pass,. they use common sense too ., .,
as for the first post here ., that started this., it sounds like you are slowing too much and too soon for a waving yeloow flag., just be safe., this is club racing,. but you could be causing more danger by doing what you do.... also to the one who posted slow and put your hand up is what you were taught ?????????????????????????????????? i do not think so., that is for a RED flagg.....
Quote100% correct...
and KC124 you were in the right., if you are commited and the corner workers can tell that ., there is no penalty., it would actually be unsafe for you to try to slow to NOT pass,. they use common sense too ., .,
as for the first post here ., that started this., it sounds like you are slowing too much and too soon for a waving yeloow flag., just be safe., this is club racing,. but you could be causing more danger by doing what you do.... also to the one who posted slow and put your hand up is what you were taught ?????????????????????????????????? i do not think so., that is for a RED flagg.....
Definitely not slowing ... but cautious and observing the waving yellow flag watching a fellow racer pass outside the braking zone.
Well this weeked while I cornerworked, I seen a few dimwits pass under the red. Simple rule, how hard is it to follow? :-/
QuoteWell this weeked while I cornerworked, I seen a few dimwits pass under the red. Simple rule, how hard is it to follow? :-/
Oh man! That's the easiest time to pass. I imagine being a factory rider and all those slow guys observing the red flag are just backmarkers. OK, not really. ;D
QuoteI was taught NO passing as soon as a waving yellow is visible.
Ummm, no. Now I'm not trying to be a "richard" here, but that's not right. The no passing zone is from 90degrees across from the corner worker waving the flag until 90degrees from the incident/obstruction/object
QuoteYou are to get a hand in the air and let the folks in back of you know you are coming off race pace. Slow to a prudent speed until you no longer see a waving yellow ahead.
Please God, don't do this in a CCS race if I'm behind you... You will be punted into next week...
Stay alert, and be aware of your surroundings. Don't stuff people, but don't back off your pace significantly. If the problem is that large, they will red-flag the race
QuoteThis is a hobby, this is club racing, not the WSB title fight. The waving yellow is telling you something is dead ahead, in the race line and you need to avoid it. Please start putting SAFETY first and leave the puny, ill-developed ego's at home!!! >:(
Yes. Let's start putting safety first. In order to do that, you need to understand what the waving yellow flag is telling you.
The waving yellow indicates a "potentially hazardous on or near the racing line or crash impact zone".
Most often times, the bikes are well off the track. If there is debris, etc ON the track there will be a debris flag or they will red-flag the race...
Coming significantly OFF your race pace is dangerous in this situation...
QuoteSorry for my rant, but I have already read about far too many accidents this year. I am almost glad I don't have the cash to get out there just yet... :'(
Just figure out the facts of the crashes before striking a tangent against something incorrectly...
you just basically re-typed my response from the top of the thread :P
Correct, but I wanted to stress the point since Dave333 replied after your post with a "hold your hand up and brake when you see the flag"...
That'd result similar to Kurtis Roberts at Daytona in 2001 when he saw the pace car...
QuoteCorrect, but I wanted to stress the point since Dave333 replied after your post with a "hold your hand up and brake when you see the flag"...
That'd result similar to Kurtis Roberts at Daytona in 2001 when he saw the pace car...
During a race somebody did that going into turn 1 just in front of me. The waiving yellow came out as I was approaching to pass him late braking for turn #1. When I was about 30 -40 feet behind him the waiving yellow flag came out to signal a rider down. He hit the brakes and I almost knocked him into next week. After the race I very politely said that he needs to carry his speed through the corner... he looked at me like I was crazy. All I can say is if you slow that much during a race, you WILL get hurt and I don't want you out there.
I was taught "Race to the flag". You don't slow down when you reach it, you just don't pass until you're past the incident.
ive lost positions from this before too. i lost out on contingency money from it too. that really pisses me off. if the corner workers dont see it then i dont think there is much you can do. unless you have an onboard cam that catches the whole thing.
Quoteive lost positions from this before too. i lost out on contingency money from it too. that really pisses me off. if the corner workers dont see it then i dont think there is much you can do. unless you have an onboard cam that catches the whole thing.
Even if you have footage, there is no way of proving that the other person could have 'safely' backed off the pass. I think its just something that you have to practice, to defend, go your normal speed, and be ready for a situation ahead. I have lost a race because of it.
See, people often times forget that there are people behind them, and FASTER people behind them...
Road America is a dangerous example... People will cross the finish line and let off the throttle & sit up. Terribly dangerous thing to do since there will be people right behind you coming up MUCH faster who are racing to the flag.
It took me a few races my first year to realize that the waving yellow was nothing special. I use it as a "catch-up" flag now ;D
QuoteSee, people often times forget that there are people behind them, and FASTER people behind them...
For those "faster" people:
If my understanding of the rules erred on the side of being overly cautious, then maybe I should just let the over-active ego's have the track to themselves. Please go back and read what I said. If I get a hand up or a foot out and then slow down, you better be able to avoid me. If you "punt me into next week" you are riding over your head and out of control.
Don't you folks get it?? This is a hobby. If your riding endangers your life or much worse, someone elses life, you need to find something else to do on the weekends.
Man am I getting old... :(
To think I used to be a beer-drinker and a hell-raiser... ::)
QuoteIf I get a hand up or a foot out and then slow down, you better be able to avoid me. If you "punt me into next week" you are riding over your head and out of control.
Not necessarily... They're just used to racing with predictable people, and the behavior you mentioned is not predictable.
It's like having someone check-up when they see the blue flag. Although that is somewhat more predictable...
QuoteDon't you folks get it?? This is a hobby. If your riding endangers your life or much worse, someone elses life, you need to find something else to do on the weekends.
Racing by nature has its risks. I endanger my life and your's by participating, as you do to me and everyone else. However, we (hopefully) all try to mitigate the risks as best we can by understanding ourselves, each other and trying to have a common knowledge of the rules and appropriate behavior.
Coming out of T7 at BHF wide, lifting a hand and then cutting across to pit road is sheer insanity, and it's no different from what you mentioned. Yet I'd guess you wouldn't consider doing that because you'd be "punted into next week" by an "over-active ego riding over his head and out of control" right?
I do urge you to be as safe and cautious as possible, but it's like those people who come down the on-ramp of the highway and then STOP at the bottom because there was traffic and they were afraid to merge. Stay the speed of traffic and you'll be fine! Significantly differ yourself (above OR below) from the speed of traffic (and yes, this is applying to racing as well as highway merging) and you're asking for problems.
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I don't feel that I induce any unnecessary risks in my racing; however, I am hoping to gain your understanding of my points here.
In racing, it's fine to be "nice", but (1), it'll cost you places and (2) could actually do more harm than good...
If your thought is that people who keep the race pace under waving yellow (without passing people or losing control) have "over-active ego's", then you've just identified a very high percentage of the people you will be racing with.
QuoteThey're just used to racing with predictable people
Coming out of T7 at BHF wide, lifting a hand and then cutting across to pit road is sheer insanity, and it's no different from what you mentioned. Yet I'd guess you wouldn't consider doing that because you'd be "punted into next week" by an "over-active ego riding over his head and out of control" right?
So, none of the predictable people ever need to get off race pace? I have ridden behind an expert who was in the race line, putting along and adjusting his clutch lever. Using your logic (or lack thereof) I can "punt him into next week" and go home proud? Fer shame, fer shame...
Did I say anything about riding erratically or cutting from the left side of the track to the pit entrance after t7 at BHF? You are doing a poor job of putting words into my mouth.
Jeffy, I truly hope you don't speak for the rest of the field. I hope you get your trophy or plaque or whatever, along with a fully adjustable CRAFTMATIC bed. Looks to me as though you are likely to need it...
Hey Ladies.... Sheesh.
The problem with common sense is it ain't all that common.
I got dinged for passing a 125 GP bike going into T1 when a waving yellow came out. Spoke with the ref about it afterward, and explained that I was carrying a bunch of speed, had already set him up for the pass, saw the flag, and decided I could safely carry past him without going so hard into the turn as to risk a get off (and thus hit the guy laying in the grass).
The ref said it was a bit borderline, but he understood. He also said common sense is the guide.
From another race organization:
YELLOW FLAG: A) When held stationary-indicates a potentially dangerous situation near the track or a slower moving motorcycle. B) When waved vigorously-indicates a hazard or obstacle on the track, avoidance maneuvers may be necessary. Exercise extreme caution, slow your speed until past the situation. Passing for position under a waving yellow flag is NOT allowed and the offending rider will be assessed a penalty.
;D ;D ;D
Dave, I'm truly sorry you seem to have taken such a great offense to my points. That certainly wasn't the intent. (and if saying you appear to be offended is putting words into your mouth, allow me to apologize now)
I'll drop the topic. If you'd be interested in discussing it more, drop by sometime at my pit, or call me any eve 262-246-8589.
Kind regards...
QuoteDave, I'm truly sorry you seem to have taken such a great offense to my points.
Jeff,
The "points" I hear from you and Eddie are the same ones I hear from the Factory racers about Privateers. They are continually complaining about how the privateers are too slow, ride erratically and don't belong out on the track. Didn't I just read a while back on RRW about Factory racers punching and kicking the slower AMA riders on the track?
Is that where club racing is at?
I sincerely hope you all have a tremendous season and y'all leave the track in one piece. Ride smart, ride safe. We all have families and jobs to return to after the racing is done.