I just found a site that had some good info on using Toluene, commonly found at Lowes or home depot in the paint section for about $5-$6 a gallon, for Boosting pump gas 93 to 100 octane. You mix it at about 20% to get to 100. That site claims its whats in unleaded race gas to boost the octane levels. They said its already a main componant of pump gas and wont harm fuel injections or cards. Anyone have any thing to say? What do you think? ???
Whoops, thats carbs! :o
Well, do you really need more ocatane? An oxygen bearing additive would be better to increase performance. And Tolulene has to have it's own specific gravity that can potentially change the way the whole mixture actually "jets". Consistency, etc. can be a problem.
What are you trying to achieve? I know there are some sites that have some home brewed ideas. Mostly applies to SCCA car stuff...larger bores and lower rev's than a motorcycle, so things can be quite different.
What Dave said, plus it's illegal. Rules permit "lubrication or knock supression additives" to fuel, nothing else.
Isn't that one of the ingredients in Red Bull? ;)
QuoteIsn't that one of the ingredients in Red Bull? ;)
Which we all know is made of Gummy Bears and battery acid ;D
Dave, go off on a rant here over octane... I get frustrated over it...
My $.02 in a few short words. Your motor must *NEED* a higher level of octane to benefit from it. Otherwise all you're doing is preventing proper detonation and burn, effectively shorting yourself.
"whoa dude, my bike just flies off this 112 octane jet fuel and it's only $7 an gallon!"...
This is a huge myth and misconception... Higher octane does not mean higher quality or "better" gas. It also will NOT clean out a gummed up system...
Toluene is already in pump gas, you are just adding more, so its totally legal. Its also the main ingreadent in over the counter octain boosters. The point is we all want to save some money by not having to buy race gas for high compression engines. There is another chemical you can use to oxygenate gas, I think its something like MTHB, that its initals, and its cheap to add too, $6 a gallon. Now that stuff might be illegal.
James, I see your point, but I read the rule book differently. I don't see where octane boosters are legal, as they are not mentioned as permitted in the rule book. The rulebook definition of gasoline is pretty clear, including the specific gravity, dielectric and permitted additives. Is adding more of an existing component of gasoline legal? I interpret the rules as saying no, but I may be wrong, and I've never had a reason to investigate. Probably a good question for CCS to answer.
Not all race gas is high octane anyway, in fact some of the best race gas has a lower octane rating than pump gas. Some examples folow. Note that these are MON ratings, not PON (RON+MON)/2 numbers as most pump gas is rated.
VP MR1 - 90 octane
VP MR9 - 87 octane
VP Ultimate 4 - 92.2 octane
Since pump gas is rated using PON, the octane rating will always be higher than MON. 93 octane pump gas would equate to about 89 octane MON, which is higher than VP MR9 and just under VP MR1.
Do you have a problem with detonation on pump gas? If not, you may be wasting your money seeking the higher octane anyway. Here's an excellent article on the subject by Dr. Rob Tuluie of Tularis fame: http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcnuts/rt-fuel1.html
Toluene won't raise the octane number very much
I should say. You would have to add a significant
amount of Methyl-benzenes to increase octane.
Roughly 40% to get a ROM/+2 of about 100
That is alot of Tol. just to get to 100.
Most fuel companies don't utilize aromatics to raise octanes. The reason is the residule is toxic, and harmful to CC's on road going autos.
Toluol will raise your specific gravity though, and also increase burn rate/flame speed both length and temp. It has a higher flash point too. adding a little may not bump the SG over the legal limit but adding enough will. I believe the SG for Toluene is .84 to .87
depending on what grade you buy. The grade you refer to at local hardware stores is a low grade mix.
The best stuff is a pharmaceutical grade. I know Fischer Scientific sells that grade. You will definitly feel a power difference by adding the proper amount,
because it will increase the BTU's per pound in the fuel. In essence a "heavier fuel" will create more power. You will have to re-jet for this. It is a bit of trial and error, but trust me you will increase HP.
Also, you may risk burning a piston if you add too much. This is because the additive will not have any 'lubricant in it, the more you add the less lubricating properties the fuel will have. But, if you start out conservative, you should be ok. But, of course, it will be illegal, if you get fuel tested you will fail the SG test. I thing pump gas is in the range of .76 or so. Yes, pump gas has some Toluene and Xylene and Iso-octane, along with a host of other chems too. But very low amounts, that do not offer any power increase. Race fuel is a SCIENCE, but there is nothing that says you cannot experiment or re-engineer the science, plenty of racers, make their own race fuel/blends Just have some good solid knowledge of chemicals and practice very safe handling before you go and mix or blend any of your own fuels.
BTW- Toluene and Xylene are great fuel injector/carb cleaners.
Buy the quart at the hardware store for 5 bucks
compared to the 12 or 16 oz 'specialized' at the auto store for 2 to 4 bucks.
Just filter it before adding it to your tank.
You can use a paint type paper cone filter placed inside of a funnel.
Thanks p9, thats why all the cars guys use it and I read they use toluene in F-1 cars. I thought you would get a faster burn using it. Its not only an octane issue its a faster burn rate too. The car guys have to pass fuel tests too but they say using it mixed at about %20 per gallon still lets them pass and that amount doesnt need to be rejeted. I dont know if the cars use the same test though. Very good info. ;D
Your welcome James.
Your right about the car guys and F1.
It seems alot the racing on the car end has much more R&D in all areas of performance.
This is why I try to experiment with different things based on information from auto racing rather than bike racing. Most of all the new tech and developments trickle down from car racing anyway.
Back in the 90's the F1 teams were into very exotic and very toxic fuels. Most of it was Benzene based.
Then the FIA outlawed Benzene, which is a known
carcinogenic anyway.
Well assuming you are going to use a 20% mix, then roughly you will be using 3/4 to 1 gallon of
the Methyl-Benzene additives. So, and I am just taking a stab at this - if the mixture is 20% then so will the SG be, I think. So if pump gas is about .76 and Toluol is .86 you can add the percentage and divide to get the end number, again, I think.
So 1/5 th of the tank will have a SG of .86 and 4/5 ths will be at .76, so now to figure out the math.
I am terrible at math, maybe someone else knows?
George
if you mix 1 gallon of Toluene to 4 gallons of pump fuel, then the SG would be:
(0.86 + 4x0.76)/5 = 0.78
The legal limit is .775, so you will be over depending on temperature. So apro. 3/4 gallon to 4 gallons would be good enough to keep down the SG.
maybe I will try it.
A. Is rocket fuel legal? ;D and B. How the hell do you guys know all this formula stuff for fuel? ??? ;D
There you go Philly!
Thank you for the math lesson...
I could never get a handle on numbers.
Yes, adding maybe 5/8 or 3/4 will keep you legal
and will add some power. It will be the denser mixture that will be the most benificial, not the slight octane increase. More BTU's = more power!
Providing your jetted correctly too.
QuoteA. Is rocket fuel legal? ;D and B. How the hell do you guys know all this formula stuff for fuel? ??? ;D
why said we actually know this stuff ;D ;D ;D
Well, most of it is basic chemistry, and as I siad before, race fuel is a science and a part of R&D.
I have always been more interested in the R&D aspect of racing than anything else. Also, more interested in cars than bikes as well. I began studying and researching race fuels right when I started racing in 91. I found plenty of info from
racers, and chemistry books at the pharma plant I had worked for. Some crude R&D and experimenting is all I am capable of with no lab or real testing facilities, but most of my investigating proves to turn out positive. Now, with the internet having so much info available it is relatively easy to research anything and apply it to your own program.
Now, go experiment!!!
QuoteThere you go Philly!
Thank you for the math lesson...
I could never get a handle on numbers.
Yes, adding maybe 5/8 or 3/4 will keep you legal
and will add some power. It will be the denser mixture that will be the most benificial, not the slight octane increase. More BTU's = more power!
Providing your jetted correctly too.
so, does the mixture need less air? Because the fuel burns more efficiently and faster, it will run leaner, correct? So I can jet it to deliever more fuel (richer) since they will burn more, right?
QuoteAlso, more interested in cars than bikes as well.
Them's fightin words...lol. ;D
1.
Right, larger jetting. Now, you may find that your low-end low-rpm off the throttle may bog a bit.
But it is a small sacrifice to get the extra hp.
You may even get back-fire, depends on how big you go. Just keep the revs UP! You may want to do some dyno tests if you can before doing any on-track experimenting.
2. :)
I hear ya Duc...
Listen, if I could [$$$] I would be prototype
or open wheel racing!
Wings and things are my bag baby....
The only reason I started bike racing was because I could not afford to go car racing, on a decent level.
I like the 2 wheels, and it has afforded me the awesome opportunity to compete at such historic
and great circuits like Daytona, Bridghampton, and
Road Atlanta. But I'd trade 2 for 4 in a heartbeat!
In fact I'd sell my soul for an F1 ride, even just 1 race. I'm watching Carburation day right now, I can't wait for Sunday.
ha my bike is actually too rich right now. Mains are probably 1 size too large. Been wanting to either re-jet or lean the mixture a little. So I guess I will try a mixture fuel next practice day.
Ok, sounds like you may be spot on then after
juicing up the gas. Let us know your findings.
One thing you will notice right away is the smell
;)
I know the sweet distinctive and pungent smell of toluene, some people get high on it don' they? ;)
anyways, I guess if adding it is NOT illegal in CCS, it wouldn't be too hard to be spotted because of the smell. I am going to try it out at a track day, it I like the result, I may submit a sample to tech before using it in a race.
Well, I wouldn't necessarly submit a sample before hand.
I would just make sure that your under the .775 SG limit.
Then just use your blend. If you get tested then you'll be ok. However that said, I would bring the container of the brand you purchase, your receipt, along with the brands MSDS sheet. That way, if you are questioned you will have all the tech info at hand. You never know what crazy demands some tech inspectors may ask of you. Better be prepared
than to be DQ'd
I think Im going to give it a try as well, where is the best place to buy the stuff? Someone already said the stuff at home depot isnt as good as pharmaceutical grade. Mightyduc if I were you I wouldnt try it, your bike might blow up, just kidding. ;D
Got my mixture figured out. 1/2 C12 VP and half 93 octane pump gas. ;D
Why not go for the proplene oxide? If you are going to pour stuff in your fuel at least use the good stuff.
I also use .5 VP C12 and .5 pump gas, and a whole lot of experimentation on jetting. I tried straight VP C12 once but it did not seem to make a difference (but it did smell pretty cool ;D).
For all of you chemists, isn't octane rating the gas's ability to detonate within a certain range of pressure and temperature? So, pre-detonation is a caused by low octane gas burning before it should?
If this is true, higher octane would not necessarily help (but could never hurt) and other additives (like leaded gas and oxygenators) would be more effective.
Not only does toluene increase octane it puts out more BTU. More BTU=more power. ;D
QuoteIf this is true, higher octane would not necessarily help (but could never hurt) and other additives (like leaded gas and oxygenators) would be more effective.
This isn't true. All else being equal using a higher octane gas than you need will net less power. On a guys R1 we picked up 3hp going from 93 to 87 octane pump gas.
The higher octane gas burns slower and you don't want the stuff still burning when the piston is way on down.. The goal is to use the lowest octane fuel you can without knock.
QuoteA. Is rocket fuel legal? ;D and B. How the hell do you guys know all this formula stuff for fuel? ??? ;D
Hydrazine is not legal as the rules are written. And it will mess up some stuff and it's hard to jet for.
QuoteNot all race gas is high octane anyway, in fact some of the best race gas has a lower octane rating than pump gas. Some examples folow. Note that these are MON ratings, not PON (RON+MON)/2 numbers as most pump gas is rated.
VP MR1 - 90 octane
VP MR9 - 87 octane
VP Ultimate 4 - 92.2 octane
If you want to talk rules...
These fuels are illegal according the the CCS rules as they are written. You won't see any testing, but they will NOT pass the rules as they are written. You would have to use maybe VP C11 or C12 to be legal, that's it. Pump gas from your local station is illegal.
QuoteDave, go off on a rant here over octane... I get frustrated over it...
My $.02 in a few short words. Your motor must *NEED* a higher level of octane to benefit from it. Otherwise all you're doing is preventing proper detonation and burn, effectively shorting yourself.
"whoa dude, my bike just flies off this 112 octane jet fuel and it's only $7 an gallon!"...
This is a huge myth and misconception... Higher octane does not mean higher quality or "better" gas. It also will NOT clean out a gummed up system...
Nor does it mean that a higher octane fuel is necessarily less powerful.
A big misconseption is that ALL high octane fuels are not as good as lower octane fuels in some applications.
I'll put Power Mist TO137 (at a MON of 120+...that's pretty much where they stop measuring it, and on another scale, it comes in at 147 octane) against anything. It is very good. My R6. GSXR, 6R and other bikes we've used it in: SV650's etc love it. And it works great in really low compression applications...stock tractor pulls (old Massy's, etc.). It isn't the octane number that makes, or doesn't make, power...it's the chemical composition.
QuoteWhy not go for the proplene oxide? If you are going to pour stuff in your fuel at least use the good stuff.
Again, that would be easy to find with a dielectric test. And the results on track can be inconsistent.
QuoteIf you want to talk rules...
These fuels are illegal according the the CCS rules as they are written. You won't see any testing, but they will NOT pass the rules as they are written. You would have to use maybe VP C11 or C12 to be legal, that's it. Pump gas from your local station is illegal.
Yes, the dielectric is off scale for them, however, SG is within limits. I was using them for illustrative purposes only because of their relatively low octane. We have used VP C12, which is legal.
Out of curiosity, why do you say pump gas is illegal? Most of the one's I've looked at have dielectric well within limits, as well as SG. AMOCO Premium UL, Sunoco, Citgo all appear to be legal.
I agree that the current rules as written could be improved. Some organizations use an approved fuel list which can go a long way to eliminating abuse (coupled with testing). But this is a bit of a silly argument anyway. It's one thing to search for appropriate octane levels to eliminate detonation, and another to search for the right brew to make you go faster. At some level of competition the characteristics of the fuel used may offer an advantage to competitors - but in CCS I doubt that's the case in most instances. Many club level racers can't effectively use the power that their bikes generate in completely stock form, and would be better served by spending their money on riding schools (perhaps like yours ;)).
QuoteOut of curiosity, why do you say pump gas is illegal? Most of the one's I've looked at have dielectric well within limits, as well as SG. AMOCO Premium UL, Sunoco, Citgo all appear to be legal.
I could be wrong, but CCS's rules use the High Desert Engineering dielectric meter. As the rules are written, there is a specific paramater for fuels. Pump gas would show up polar at potentially 3.5 to 5 on the scale because it is unleaded and oxygenated. I don't have the rules in front of me, but the prameter for dielectric is around 0.1 or something like it. Regardless, the rules don't allow many fuels, and they are not enforced anyway.
QuoteI agree that the current rules as written could be improved. Some organizations use an approved fuel list which can go a long way to eliminating abuse (coupled with testing). But this is a bit of a silly argument anyway. It's one thing to search for appropriate octane levels to eliminate detonation, and another to search for the right brew to make you go faster. At some level of competition the characteristics of the fuel used may offer an advantage to competitors - but in CCS I doubt that's the case in most instances. Many club level racers can't effectively use the power that their bikes generate in completely stock form, and would be better served by spending their money on riding schools (perhaps like yours ;)).
Agreed, why have such rules. I got the rules changed from 1999 to 2000 where the rules were simple. I went to the FUSA race at Road America and they told me my fuel was illegal. I asked to see the rules...more like I showed the guy the rules. It didn't offer me any advantage at the time, it just happened to be the fuel that I was using. So, why have silly rules anyway.
As for schooling...yes, the proper school will help.