I really shouldn't step into this heated lightweight class discussion but I have been trying to decide what I want to do for next year. 2014 was my first year racing. I had a 2004 749s so that's what I raced. It fit well and was competitive in the CSS Thunderbike and LWF40 class (since I am an old beginning racer). I chose to race CCS because they were the only organization that had a place for that bike and that's what I have. While I only got to race a few weekends, I did well enough, learned a lot, met some great people and had such a great time, I plan to get a little more serious next year.
So I am looking to possibly sell the 749 to get another bike I could race in other classes and maybe other organizations. I'm not married to the Ducati brand but I know it and like it so I looked at my Ducati options. I also want to stay in lighter weight classes. One option is to get a used Monster 796 set up cheap (rearsets, a shock, fairing and maybe an exhaust). I am on a budget so if I sell the 749 and find a used 796 the additional cost would be minimal. There are some racing in other orgs and it has a 803cc air-cooled engine putting out about 75hp. Reviewing the classes from WERA and CCS, it is very obvious that the WERA class structure has been set up to cater to the SV and it is not at all friendly to other brands of bikes. I think the only classes in WERA that it would work well in is D Superstock/Superbike and Lightweight Solo. It won't even fit in to Lightweight Twins (Superbike or Superstock) since the limit is 800 cc for LWT and the 796 is technically 803cc. Maybe I could petition WERA to include it since they allow the Ducati 900SS/1000DS/1100DS in Superbike. With CCS on the other hand I could race in Lightweight Supersport, Ultra-Light Superbike, Lightweight Superbike, Lightweight GP, Thunderbike, GTL and LWF40 with no issues.
Everyone gets all excited about the definition of a lightweight bike. I am not trying to pour gas on this fire but this bike is an 803cc 2 valve air-cooled engine and it is disappointing that it doesn't fit into WERAs definition of a lightweight bike. But I guess that's ok since I enjoy racing with CCS anyway.
WERA-
D SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE and D SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 883cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
LIGHTWEIGHT TWINS SUPERBIKE EXPERT & NOVICE and LIGHTWEIGHT TWINS SUPERSTOCK EXPERT & NOVICE
Up to 800cc air-cooled twins
SOLO CLASSES:
Lightweight Expert & Novice - 125 Grand Prix, Clubman, Lightweight Twins and D class machines.
CCS-
LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERSPORT (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
ULTRA-LIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 805cc
LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERBIKE (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
LIGHTWEIGHT GRAND PRIX (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 1210cc
THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert)
All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement
GTL – (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Displacement as per Lightweight Grand Prix
LIGHTWEIGHT FORMULA 40 (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement
Buy Gino's hybrid. I think it's down to 20 grand now....
The 803 is allowed in WERA D superstock/superbike
Depends how many classes you want to Race. The 800 air cooled duc is good bike for both club but it won't be as handy stock as the SV is. Dump $$$ into it then you can get good HP ( 100ish)
You get 5 races with WERA: D SS & SBK, LWT SS & SBK, Formula 2, Lwt Solo
7 races with CCS, the ones you listed.
Also, most of the WERA rounds in 2015 will be twin sprint weekends so double it and you can also add Heavyweight twins.
Don't worry about adding fuel to the fire, we are so desperate for racing discussion here on the CCS forum that we will re-hash the same argument about 5 times per year. The Ducati is a cheater bike. The SV is vintage. Etc, etc, etc. :cheers:
Honestly if I was in your situation, I'm not sure what I would do. The lack of modern options is kind of annoying. Yes I spent ALOT of money on the hybrid. I love it but it's also limited in what classes it is legal for, and if you're going to spend all that money to race HW twins you should just get an 848. I built that because I love bikes, love Ducatis, and had some parts and money to start with so I figured what the hell. Certainly not for everyone.
I loved my stock 1000DS, it was competitive and ran forever. For CCS that would be my pick. Paul smart is the best Ducati to have for CCS, but they are pretty pricey. My second choice would be an 800SS, that has always seemed like a fun bike and they can be built pretty reliably to 85-90HP running C-12 fuel. You will be right there with the SV's, they have less HP but they are lighter and will handle better with less invested in the suspension. You will be VERY competitive in the Ultra LW class, and all the WERA classes.
I can't really comment on the Monster, I have never ridden that chassis but it seems like it would be a good bike. Mavros has one and it's competitive.
Bottom line: with the 800 you can't go wrong in WERA. With the 1000 you can't go wrong in CCS! You say you are not married to the Ducati brand, so I'll mention this- my brother had an SV superbike that was very fun to ride, so if you're considering WERA maybe you should consider that. When in Rome.....
PS, I might add that before you pull the trigger consider this: If you're still racing amateur, why not run the 749 another year? Depending on your age and state of tune, you could run LWF40, Thunderbike, and throw in a couple of MW races just for fun. No, you probably won't win in MW, but it's my experience that the MW classes are much larger, and in the AM ranks there's always someone to race with. Might make you a better racer in the mean time. Just a thought.
The 796 Monster was just an idea that came up over lunch with the guys from the local Indy Ducati shop and makes a lot of sense. If I happen to find a good deal on one or find one that's a salvage deal maybe I will give it a try for next year. I like the idea of having the option of more lightweight classes and that's when I started looking to see where it would fit in WERA and CCS.
So talking about the SV and since it's going to be a long winter (and Gino just wants to liven things up around here and talk racing), what makes it so good? I have never ridden one. I don't think the chassis was ever designed from the start as a race platform. I know it's pretty cheap to start with and develop. Is it because it's very lightweight?
It's not that light. Weighs same as a 600.
It's good because they are easy to ride. You can make mistakes and bike is forgiving. Good for beginner, fun for expert. Lot's of parts out there. Relatively easy on tires. And if you want to put in a good lap time, you have to ride it insanely hard. Forces you to fly through each corner and not just point and shoot. Chassis is forgiving with set up. Some of the GSXR parts can be used (rearsets, wheels, forks).
Never ridden monster but I have ridden 800 and 1100 air cooled ducs. 800 is bleh. 1100 is..... perfect. BUT neither was on the track.
If I remember correctly, the REALLY fast SV's had alot of work done to them....big bore kit, lightened stator and flywheel, flatslides, Wheels, GSXR front end, etc. I don't know what the average level of mods is, the fastest SV we had down here recently was Pony's, and Mavros bought it to get Pony out of LW. Now we do have Lucas Silva going very quick on an SV, and Santiago Villa doing the same.....not sure about the state of tune of the bikes.
I do recall that I had very little invested in my 1000DS and it was quite competitive. Chain, sprockets, rebuilt engine breather and custom breather box, Lightweight fairing stay, bodywork, pipe and power commander. I was even using stock rearsets- Eventually I lightened it up with a fuel cell and added a quick shifter. Revalved suspension and I lengthened the rear shock to get more rear ride height. That was about it. Not bad for a national level race prep! A little heavy but it made 93 HP I think, with the stock airbox lid intact for supersport. Eventually I added a slipper clutch and Brembo master too.
You can get 90hp+ out of stock bore SV. Big bore is a waste and puts a lot more stress on the crank. Big pistons are very heavy vs the OEM ones. Going big bore is just easier route to get the power then keeping it as a 645cc machine.
So what kind of mods are we talking about? Or is that Top Secret? 90 HP seems pretty stout.....I think the 565 Mavros built made about 107. Our bikes are in the 125 range but that is on the MotoCorse dyno, which I think is about 15% higher than a regular dynojet.
No secret.
Pistons (lightweight high comp), good head work, big cams, bigger tbodies / flatslides. With light weight pistons, rods, and flywheel (or BDK) you don't even need to put in the $2500 crank.
The tame 565's are about 110hp. The SBK 565 is 125.
Quote from: Swiest on November 03, 2014, 12:08:56 PM
No secret.
Pistons (lightweight high comp), good head work, big cams, bigger tbodies / flatslides. With light weight pistons, rods, and flywheel (or BDK) you don't even need to put in the $2500 crank.
The tame 565's are about 110hp. The SBK 565 is 125.
This is about $3500.. That is if you can find some of the parts used...
Pistons - $500 (from CP)
Cams - $900 (webb)
Heads - $500 (or $1500 if you go for super crazy bling heads)
Tbodies - $350
Rods - ~$500 carrillo
Building motor yourself saves a lot of $$$$ as does finding used parts. I personally wouldn't buy any of that stuff new.
SO will the 1st gen be faster than the second gen because of the flatslides? Where do you get the throttle bodies or do you just bore them?
I seem to remember my brother having an aftermarket oil cooler to fix crank issues....
What about engine management? Are you running a power commander or something else?
Quote from: Swiest on November 03, 2014, 04:35:12 PM
Pistons - $500 (from CP)
Cams - $900 (webb)
Heads - $500 (or $1500 if you go for super crazy bling heads)
Tbodies - $350
Rods - ~$500 carrillo
Building motor yourself saves a lot of $$$$ as does finding used parts. I personally wouldn't buy any of that stuff new.
Who is doing porting work for $500! I am serious too. I need to know! I am guessing that does not include new valves and springs. Which, since I think mine are original, should be replaced.
$350 if you have a second gen for TBs. Min $600, if you can find them used, for flatslides.
Are heavy duty spring and new head bolts required?
I have been looking for high comp pistons and used rods, but no luck.
As for 2nd gen vs 1st gen, that is a can of worms. Some like the fuel injection, some don't. The 1st gen does have a better crank, but not a huge issue.
This was one reason I was looking at a air-cooled 800 Ducati. I really don't know anything about the SV.
Quote from: Gino230 on November 03, 2014, 05:08:27 PM
SO will the 1st gen be faster than the second gen because of the flatslides? Where do you get the throttle bodies or do you just bore them?
I seem to remember my brother having an aftermarket oil cooler to fix crank issues....
What about engine management? Are you running a power commander or something else?
How about build a good superstock bike and learn how to ride the piss out of it. An SV superbike motor is going to cost a bunch of cash. Use the money for tires and track time.
SVs are very easy to work on. Put gas in it and let it rip..
Quote from: Capitalview on November 03, 2014, 05:29:37 PM
Who is doing porting work for $500! I am serious too. I need to know! I am guessing that does not include new valves and springs. Which, since I think mine are original, should be replaced.
$350 if you have a second gen for TBs. Min $600, if you can find them used, for flatslides.
Are heavy duty spring and new head bolts required?
I have been looking for high comp pistons and used rods, but no luck.
As for 2nd gen vs 1st gen, that is a can of worms. Some like the fuel injection, some don't. The 1st gen does have a better crank, but not a huge issue.
My SV superbike makes 88-90hp on U4.4 depending on the day and the dyno. It has stock valves and a superstock valve job done by Ben Fox using a Rottler valve seat cutter. Only thing it has is HD valve springs from TWF. SV heads are good for 90hp without porting.
If you like the 800, get it.
horsepower horsepower horsepower
It's all anyone ever seems to talk about. Spend all your money up front on the best suspension and set-up you can get. If you still have some money left, buy lighter wheels and lighten the bike as much as you can. If you still have yet more money, congratulations, you are a baller, upgrade the brakes (although the stock ones are absolutely adequate at this point, right down to the m/c.)
Then, hopefully, you have left yourself some money to actually race. Go race. Have fun. Learn how to go faster. Don't worry about horsepower. The whole point of air-cooled 2v Ducs is torque, torque which is consistent and eminently accessible over a wide rev range, and which is greater than that of a liquid cooled 4v. Torque is different than hp, but can be quite effective when utilized correctly. Again, don't worry about horsepower.
Should you decide you want to go to Daytona, you can always work on the motor later. Until then, again, have fun.
Edit: just went back and saw that you were talking to the guys at Ducati Indy. Great guys with a lot of knowledge. Another plus should you decide on the M.
Quote from: Farmboy on November 28, 2014, 03:46:04 AM
If you like the 800, get it.
horsepower horsepower horsepower
It's all anyone ever seems to talk about. Spend all your money up front on the best suspension and set-up you can get. If you still have some money left, buy lighter wheels and lighten the bike as much as you can. If you still have yet more money, congratulations, you are a baller, upgrade the brakes (although the stock ones are absolutely adequate at this point, right down to the m/c.)
Then, hopefully, you have left yourself some money to actually race. Go race. Have fun. Learn how to go faster. Don't worry about horsepower. The whole point of air-cooled 2v Ducs is torque, torque which is consistent and eminently accessible over a wide rev range, and which is greater than that of a liquid cooled 4v. Torque is different than hp, but can be quite effective when utilized correctly. Again, don't worry about horsepower.
Should you decide you want to go to Daytona, you can always work on the motor later. Until then, again, have fun.
Edit: just went back and saw that you were talking to the guys at Ducati Indy. Great guys with a lot of knowledge. Another plus should you decide on the M.
Yellow plates next year Jimbo? :)
Quote from: Grasshopper on December 02, 2014, 02:16:10 PM
Yellow plates next year Jimbo? :)
Nope. I re-upped at the last round. Kinda like sandbagging in reverse. Keeping the fires burning. :)
I ran against a couple Ducs this season in SS and the other classes I ran , 749s maybe and one that I have no idea he was fast on the straight but parkin it in the corners ! To me just seems like the ducati just does not handle like the SV they have a motor but in the Ltwt class that is all they have on the SV ! I run a pretty much stock 01 SV with just the usual mods on it ! IMHO the SV is the bike to run is pretty inexpensive ( I am just a poor workin guy ) some of the offs I have had would have finished my season paying for a Ducati !!!!!!!!
Quote from: cooker1 on December 14, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
I ran against a couple Ducs this season in SS and the other classes I ran , 749s maybe and one that I have no idea he was fast on the straight but parkin it in the corners ! To me just seems like the ducati just does not handle like the SV they have a motor but in the Ltwt class that is all they have on the SV ! I run a pretty much stock 01 SV with just the usual mods on it ! IMHO the SV is the bike to run is pretty inexpensive ( I am just a poor workin guy ) some of the offs I have had would have finished my season paying for a Ducati !!!!!!!!
Some handle well; others, not so much.
Early M's have very similar geometry to 851/888's and handle very well. Super Sports, not so much, mostly due to the non-linkage cantilever swing arm rear end, although there have been riders who have gone quite fast on these. I'v heard that the newest Monsters (air-cooled, not that ugly new water-cooled pig) handle well too.
Stock geometry 749's and 748's are not ideal, being much too difficult to turn in. With the right front end and suspension, a different story.
Motor-wise, the trade-off on the Duc is that it is much less stressed when built than a comparably powered SV. Whereas a 90+ HP Suzook will need to be fully built with a very expensive crank (among other things) and will likely require a full rebuild every season (if not more often), a Ducati -particularly a DS - can easily make the same power with a stock bottom end and will last multiple seasons easily. Many doubt this, but the secret is to not overrev them - it makes no sense to do so anyway, as they stop making power around 8k.
My '96 944 motor still has a box-stock bottom end, and it had 7k street miles when I got it in '04. I put a 944 kit on it in '05; then, we put new pistons in in '11 when we went to freshen it up, but we found it didn't even need them when we opened the motor, although we put 'em in anyway as they were a bit higher compression. We've seen multiple early 2v motors with 70-80k miles which still run great at the shop that helps me out. These motors have been around in one form or another since the 70's, don't forget.
My '08 DS motor makes 95 RWHP with stock displacement (albeit hi-comp) pistons, cams, os intake valves, a Power Commander, and a pipe, all on the stock bottom, too. That motor is hellaciously powerful, although it's currently in a terrible chassis (S2R). A fellow racer had a wrist pin seize on his DS and actually bend the rod, but when they tore the motor down, the crank and cases were absolutely perfect - Ducs have hella strong bottom ends. Obviously, it helps to know about what to do with the wrist pins...
Trade-offs. I'm always shocked and a bit dismayed by how few Ducs are around, in the MW at least. They really are underrated and (IMO) mistakenly dismissed. When you factor in how much an SV costs to build properly initially and maintain over the long run, Ducatis can absolutely be competitive financially, as well as on the track.
Regardless, it's not the bike that bends, it's the rider. There is no spoon. :thumb:
Jim, An SV motor having to be rebuilt every year is nonsense. IT's not a freakin 2 stroke. Check valve clearances, check compression, perform leak down test. If it all passes race the motherf@cker.
Quote from: Farmboy on December 14, 2014, 02:32:15 AM
Some handle well; others, not so much.
Early M's have very similar geometry to 851/888's and handle very well. Super Sports, not so much, mostly due to the non-linkage cantilever swing arm rear end, although there have been riders who have gone quite fast on these. I'v heard that the newest Monsters (air-cooled, not that ugly new water-cooled pig) handle well too.
Stock geometry 749's and 748's are not ideal, being much too difficult to turn in. With the right front end and suspension, a different story.
Motor-wise, the trade-off on the Duc is that it is much less stressed when built than a comparably powered SV. Whereas a 90+ HP Suzook will need to be fully built with a very expensive crank (among other things) and will likely require a full rebuild every season (if not more often), a Ducati -particularly a DS - can easily make the same power with a stock bottom end and will last multiple seasons easily. Many doubt this, but the secret is to not overrev them - it makes no sense to do so anyway, as they stop making power around 8k.
My '96 944 motor still has a box-stock bottom end, and it had 7k street miles when I got it in '04. I put a 944 kit on it in '05; then, we put new pistons in in '11 when we went to freshen it up, but we found it didn't even need them when we opened the motor, although we put 'em in anyway as they were a bit higher compression. We've seen multiple early 2v motors with 70-80k miles which still run great at the shop that helps me out. These motors have been around in one form or another since the 70's, don't forget.
My '08 DS motor makes 95 RWHP with stock displacement (albeit hi-comp) pistons, cams, os intake valves, a Power Commander, and a pipe, all on the stock bottom, too. That motor is hellaciously powerful, although it's currently in a terrible chassis (S2R). A fellow racer had a wrist pin seize on his DS and actually bend the rod, but when they tore the motor down, the crank and cases were absolutely perfect - Ducs have hella strong bottom ends. Obviously, it helps to know about what to do with the wrist pins...
Trade-offs. I'm always shocked and a bit dismayed by how few Ducs are around, in the MW at least. They really are underrated and (IMO) mistakenly dismissed. When you factor in how much an SV costs to build properly initially and maintain over the long run, Ducatis can absolutely be competitive financially, as well as on the track.
Regardless, it's not the bike that bends, it's the rider. There is no spoon. :thumb:
A mild SV SBK motor can go seasons 4+ seasons with out rebuild no problem.
Doesn't John have over 10k racing miles on his stock SV engine.I know another rider that had over 30k mix street and racing till it needed a rebuild.
Quote from: Grasshopper on December 15, 2014, 12:21:35 PM
Jim, An SV motor having to be rebuilt every year is nonsense. IT's not a freakin 2 stroke. Check valve clearances, check compression, perform leak down test. If it all passes race the motherf@cker.
Nick, of course, an absolute statement that EVERY SV motor would HAVE to be rebuilt every year would be utter nonsense. However, I'll still stand by the notion that when it comes to building the near, or over 100hp motors that everyone wants nowadays, a Duc makes a better, more economical, and more reliable platform. Ducs were designed from the get-go to handle the larger torque output resulting from (relatively, nowadays) large displacement and 2 valve heads. The cases and crank are much beefier than those on the SV, and can more easily handle higher power, particularly in stock form.
Hey man, you know me. All I'm saying is what I witness, and I've been on the sidelines watching and helping out for the last 3 years. And, from what I'm seeing, the mega-built SVs, at least here in the MW, certainly seem require much more in terms of maintenance and /or repair than 2v Ducs. I'm not saying that they are bad bikes, I'm only speaking up for the (here in the MW, again, underrepresented) Ducatis.
You've seen my M through the years, and you've seen me ride it. I've been in that motor once since I initially freshened it up, and, as stated, it didn't even need it. Tell me, how many SV motors have you had to rebuild since we've known each other??
Also, in response to Swiest and Apriliaman, yes, stock SV motors are very reliable. But, not too many guys are content or talented enough to run them for long.
The whole point of contention in these threads generally tends to be about how unfair an advantage the Ducatis have because of the HP#s they can generate, and how unfair it is that only guys with deep pockets can have them. All I'm saying is that to generate #'s which are comparable to those of the most powerful SV's, the Duc is still a (relatively) inexpensive and (very) reliable alternative. And , of course, if you want to go to crazy town and build a 115-120hp motor, then the Duc is the clear choice (of course, a Buell can make these numbers easily as well, but, like the Ducs, they are pretty underrepresented nowadays.)
The SV is still going to be the class standard for many viable reasons, and is overall a better choice at many tracks, and for many riders. They can be had dirt cheap, there is a wealth of knowledge, parts, and resources for them, and they are very capable bikes, obviously. My contributions to these threads are always meant to merely point out that a judiciously and properly built Ducati can be an economical and competitive alternative to the SV. Too many riders immediately dismiss the Ducs as anything but.
85hp Sv can run for years and only cost $2k to build. That's 15hp over stock.
I'm asking because I don't know, how much would it cost to put a ducati 10-15hp over stock? What mods would it take?
Pump HP out of either motor it's going to
A: cost a fck ton to build, B: cost a fck ton in maintenance or C: A&B
But the ducati is going to cost more to build right?
Quote from: Swiest on December 15, 2014, 04:04:43 PM
85hp Sv can run for years and only cost $2k to build. That's 15hp over stock.
I'm asking because I don't know, how much would it cost to put a ducati 10-15hp over stock? What mods would it take?
Pump HP out of either motor it's going to
A: cost a fck ton to build, B: cost a fck ton in maintenance or C: A&B
But the ducati is going to cost more to build right?
I thought the point was that with the Ducatis you don't really have to "build" them to make 85hp. I get that out of a stock DS1100 in my Hyper and it has 25,000 miles on it. Quite a few track days and the valves are still in spec but will probably need adjusting this year. My 749s is also all stock puts out probably 100hp and has 17000 miles. Just now adjusting valves and that poor bike has been abused on the track for the last 5-6000 miles. But I do agree to get 10-15 more hp out a Ducati does cost more.
Quote from: cooker1 on December 14, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
I ran against a couple Ducs this season in SS and the other classes I ran , 749s maybe and one that I have no idea he was fast on the straight but parkin it in the corners ! To me just seems like the ducati just does not handle like the SV they have a motor but in the Ltwt class that is all they have on the SV ! I run a pretty much stock 01 SV with just the usual mods on it !
Dave - You might be talking about me on my 749s (Thunderbike class). As far as parking it in the corners, that would be the rider...not the bike. ::) What can I say, it was my first year racing. I'll try and get into the corners a little faster this year. :thumb: Thanks for the video you gave me. I learned a lot being able to watch myself and congratulations on moving up to expert for next year.
Quote from: cooker1 on December 14, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
IMHO the SV is the bike to run is pretty inexpensive ( I am just a poor workin guy ) some of the offs I have had would have finished my season paying for a Ducati !!!!!!!!
As far as moderate crash damage. it's not really any different than any other bike. Clip-ons, rearset pieces and fairings.
85hp Ducati is not equal to 85hp SV. SV will dust the Ducati.
85hp SV is good match vs 100hp Duc minus top end speed where Ducati takes it.
I know I've mentioned before, but I used to get 95 out of my 1000DS with supersport only mods. Power commander, slip ons, high flow breather and custom breather box. With the airbox lid intact for SS, it was about 92. That was on the ASRA dyno back in the day. Downside was the bike was heavy, had alot of chassis flex. For SS, the SV was the better choice, except at Daytona.
It's pretty reasonable to get a Duc to 105 HP or so. leave the heads alone and get the 1080 kit from pistal. Full exhaust. Bored throttle bodies should do it. In fact, I sold my old SS motor to a guy who blew up is superbike engine....he bolted it into his chassis, big throttle bodies and full exhaust, power commander and C-12 fuel, and it made 104 I think? That engine was stock with 5000 race miles. Valve adjustments only.
To get over 105, you have to spend money. You need cams, super duper porting on the heads, bigger valves, 100MM (or bigger) big bore kit. Also you need to start with a more modern set of cases, hypermotard style with the top ignition pickup.
HP isn't everything with these bikes, unless it's a Paul Smart, the handling is lacking. DS / SS chassis has alot of flex. There are plenty of handling quirks. They are heavy. It's a commitment of sorts to get them to a high level.
My brother had an SV superbike, I seem to remember the crank being the weak spot? He had an aftermarket oil cooler to combat some of these issues but he still broke a couple, and that was under 100HP. One of the big HP SV's went bang at Homestead last weekend. That bike was making over 100. The ducs generally don't blow up unless they are overrevved or crashed and they run on their side. Or you do a cheapo rebuild and don't replace the crank bearings (they're expensive). I've only seen a few sets of broken cases on the air cooled ducs, and it was one of the above issues.
Anyway it looks like we'll be stuck with the old SV vs Ducati debate for at least another year...rules committee has spoken. Shoot I was thinking the 250 vs 300 vs 390 debate was going to take over!
You can have 100hp+ SV last but you need to dump $10k into motor.
The stock Crank does snap past 85 hp easily. Ligthen and balance crank can help. Putting BDK helps the most, basically gets rid of all weight at end of the crank where it snaps. The billet crank is way to go if you want over 90hp on SV, but thats $2500. But strengthened crank just leads to the next weak spot exposed. Valves/springs, Cases if you're second gen, transmission....
Quote from: Swiest on December 15, 2014, 08:45:07 PM
85hp Ducati is not equal to 85hp SV. SV will dust the Ducati.
85hp SV is good match vs 100hp Duc minus top end speed where Ducati takes it.
Well I guess that takes care of the idea of a 796 Monster...
Parts are more expensive for the Ducati vs Suzuki.Get 2 pistons for the SV and 2 for the Ducati,or cams.You will see the Ducati parts are alot more.If you can believe it 2 Ducati racing aftermarket pistons cost more then 4 for my Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX and they are close in size.
Not really you parking it the 1000 guy is the one almost ran him over a few times ! I got some goodies for the SV this season so the bigger bikes I hope will have a little problem pulling so much on me !
Quote from: Swiest on December 15, 2014, 04:04:43 PM
85hp Sv can run for years and only cost $2k to build. That's 15hp over stock.
I'm asking because I don't know, how much would it cost to put a ducati 10-15hp over stock? What mods would it take?
Pump HP out of either motor it's going to
A: cost a fck ton to build, B: cost a fck ton in maintenance or C: A&B
But the ducati is going to cost more to build right?
jfboothe said it right, a near-stock DS can already make that power, easily.
Your later statement that the 2 bikes making the same hp aren't the same, well, that's right, but not exactly right. As Gino pointed out, there are deficiencies in many of the Ducati chassis which will negate the benefits of big power. SVs tend to be lighter than most Ducs. Moreover, though, the two bikes make completely different power, with the SV making HP thru revs and the Duc making big torque courtesy of displacement and 2 valves. The 2 motors require completely different riding styles. Most guys try to ride Ducatis like a japanese bike, overreving them, which does little good and will also break them in a hurry.
Put a rider on a well set up and appropriately chassied Duc who knows how to use the torque, and he and the additional 20 ft/lbs or so of torque will give a same-hp SV fits, on any track. Buell guys know about torque, I've raced with enough of them who didn't have proper gearing for a given track and so set the bike up with super-tall gearing and ran them as a four sp(!), at the front of the pack, on very technical tracks (Mid Ohio, Topeka, etc).
Having said that, assuming again that the chassis are equally capable, give me the 10k that someone mentioned for building an SV properly, and I can come away with a monster of a Duc motor, easily 110 at that point, which will still be more reliable than a comparably built and performing SV motor. I mentioned the DS motor I have, which made 95 rwhp and 67 (perfectly curved) ft/lbs torque using 93 octane pump gas(10% ethanol, even)on the Dynojet dyno they used to have a Safety First. I see some impressive numbers mentioned here with less mods, but all dynos are different, so whatever. Anyway, I built my bike from new, I know whats in it, as follows:
-Pistal 11.25:1 forged pistons (stock disp) - Ducshop, 495.00
-DP Hypermotard cams, DP catalog - 600.00 (that's what they were then , with an ECU, which was NOT compatible with the can-bus on the S2R, but, I swear, that's what they cost at the time.)
-Heads (Lightly) ported and 2mm over intake valves along with MBP keepers by Ducshop - this I don't remember clearly. The valves were probably 80 each, I provided the keepers at 125.00, I can't remember the labor. I'd say 400-500 sounds about right. (Incidentally, these heads are worth big coin nowadays)
-Lightweight flywheel - 200.00
-Powerjet Power Commander - 325.00
Now, that doesn't include the full exhaust, which was admittedly, I think, 1100.00, but that is still under 2k on everything else, and definitely 10+ hp over stock. I suspect, too, that with a different, more ideal exhaust such as that on an SS, this motor would make more - the S2R exhaust has many theoretical compromises. Moreover, though, all 105 hp would take is a 1080 kit, which could be done for 1500.00 or so, and it would still be a reliable (translation: multiple season bike easily) motor compared to again, a comparably built SV. I intentionally left my bike at stock displacement as I figured I would wait until it needed freshening and do the overbore at that point. Plus, I'm stupid, so I keep it simple - no slipper clutches, no fancy brakes, no triple clickers, hell, usually not even a steering damper...
That may sound like not a lot of power for a lot of dough, but ask anyone here who may have been down at Daytona in '09 about that bike, which was naked to boot. I know Gino was there as an expert, I remember him. I was there as an amateur, but the bike ran the fifth fastest lap times overall in the lightweight races I was in, I believe the times may still be listed on the site. And, it dominated in the MW, GP, and I even pulled a Thunderbike win out at Mid O in the GNRCC, all on one of the illest handling chassis you can imagine. Sorry man, not bragging, just saying.
Having said all THAT, my old (carbed) M has never even been on a dyno, and I'd be surprised if it made even 80 hp. But, that is a very good chassis, and has beaten many very powerful SVs on tracks ranging from RA to Topeka to BHF.
Again, sorry, just giving testimony. And again, only because so many would dismiss the Duc out of hand immediately. I'm posting up what I know to be true, and I've been riding the Ducs on the track since '04, with not one mechanical issue. Not. One. I've also ridden several SVs, from stock to 95hp trim, so I've experienced first hand the differences in the 2. Maybe the SV is easier to ride, but I don't think so, as long as you learn how to ride the Duc.
Regarding the debate, well, it's nice to see this kind of activity on the board again. Also, I want to reiterate that I think SVs are VERY good bikes. When it comes to whether or not Ducs should be in lightweight, well, I don't see CCS kicking them out soon as they aren't likely to forego the customers, and the Ducs are generally not going to be competitive in MW, even at 120hp, which requires a full-on build - $$$. One more time, a good rider will go fast on just about anything. Ed Key was right at the front at Daytona on his SVs right up until he retired. Remember the spoon.
Oh, and Swiest, I checked your sites and rider results, and I see how well you've done out in Cali, which I understand is extremely competitive and serious, so I certainly am not lecturing in any way. Just relating my personal experiences with Ducs. :thumb:
Jim, over last 10 years we have built 2. One motor broke because the trans locked up in 4th. I was at Grattan with a freight train behind me. Managed not to fall down but skidded the rear for 100 yards.
Quote from: Swiest on December 15, 2014, 09:19:00 PM
You can have 100hp+ SV last but you need to dump $10k into motor.
The stock Crank does snap past 85 hp easily. Ligthen and balance crank can help. Putting BDK helps the most, basically gets rid of all weight at end of the crank where it snaps. The billet crank is way to go if you want over 90hp on SV, but thats $2500. But strengthened crank just leads to the next weak spot exposed. Valves/springs, Cases if you're second gen, transmission....
10 grand for a motor build? It's not the space shuttle. Where are you getting that number?
- Balanced and lightened crank (which is the number 1 thing for longevity) - 600
- Pistons / top end kit - 500 or 600
- Gaskets - 100
- Head work - 1500 - 2000 (this is where the power and money is at)
- Trans undercut and treatment - 400 -500
- Carbs - 1000
Worst case from the ground up 5 grand. Understand I have spent the last 10 years putting all this stuff together little by little.
But I want to know who your motor builder is that is charging you 5 grand to build a motor?
Now you start talking suspension I can understand how a couple more bucks can be spent.
- Shock - 1000 - 1500
- Stock forks with cartriges 500
- Gsxr Front end setup 500 - 1000
Wheels and spare wheels 700 ish
Misc rearsets, controls, subframe another 1000
So I can understand another couple grand in getting the bike all right.
If you buy a 2500 dollar SV and set it all up from the ground up you can have 10 grand into it.
Crank. $2500 <- I'm not gonna push 100hp+ on stock crank.
Rods $600
Heads $1500-2000
Pistons $500
Trans $500
Cams - $900 (webb)
BDK Genny - $900
Slipper clutch - $900-1200 (sigma race version is more $$)
Gaskets - $100
Crank bearings - $50
Rod Bearings - $50
Then labor if you're paying someone to put it all together.
I don't pay other people. But I also wouldn't even spend $2k on a my own motor build, not worth it to me.
I forgot APE studs ($150), tentioners($100), and sprockets ($300).
Ha ha... yea it adds up pretty quick. Sick bastards we are...
Alright, who's the pinhead who neg-repped me just cause I weighed in? :finger: Some Sv riding Duc hater baby I'm sure. :wah: Better not have been you Nick, or I'll give you a noogie next month. :cheers:
Quote from: Grasshopper on December 18, 2014, 12:29:24 PM
Jim, over last 10 years we have built 2. One motor broke because the trans locked up in 4th. I was at Grattan with a freight train behind me. Managed not to fall down but skidded the rear for 100 yards.
My bad then. I thought you had done more.
Quote from: Farmboy on December 18, 2014, 11:46:39 PM
Alright, who's the pinhead who neg-repped me just cause I weighed in? :finger: Some Sv riding Duc hater baby I'm sure. :wah: Better not have been you Nick, or I'll give you a noogie next month. :cheers:
i just "applauded" ya to even it out .. :)
Quote from: Grasshopper on December 18, 2014, 12:29:24 PM
Jim, over last 10 years we have built 2. One motor broke because the trans locked up in 4th. I was at Grattan with a freight train behind me. Managed not to fall down but skidded the rear for 100 yards.
No way I would ever neg rep you dude. See you at the banquet
Quote from: Farmboy on December 18, 2014, 11:46:39 PM
Alright, who's the pinhead who neg-repped me just cause I weighed in? :finger: Some Sv riding Duc hater baby I'm sure. :wah: Better not have been you Nick, or I'll give you a noogie next month. :cheers: