Assume stock SV650 vs. stock RC51, neither has been lightened. The RC has the HP advantage for sure, but the SV has the weight advantage. On a track with only a few straights like MAM, how many seconds per lap faster would you expect the RC to be?
.001 ;D ;D
That would definitely prove my point! ;D
There was a fast rider on an SV this weekend at Jennigns running in the HW classes (maybe HW SS?) for track time and probably overall points. He was pretty much at the back of the pack. This is a well-built SV. There were several large twins in front of him. At least one was an RC51, I think. This SV is a regional and national champ from last year. Jennings is definitely NOT a hp track. Hope this helps.
Well, what are fast SVs running at BHF compared to RC51s? Is someone saying that the SV will be almost as fast because of teh lower weight!? It's all about the ratio there.
Well, what times did Ed Key get last year on a good day? And Rick Bruer? Anyone?
Something like 1:18s comes to mind, with an RC running what, a 1:16?
These are vague guesses/memories, so don't use my info, Tigerblade, unless someone else can confirm it.
I've heard 7lbs = 1hp but I think that applies more to drag racing.
That depends on teh weight and HP of the bike. On a bike with 330 lbs and 180 HP, taking off 7 lbs is BETTER than adding 1 HP, and on a 500 lb bike with 50 HP, I'm sure it's the other way around. I think the 7 lbs thing is too general.
Okay, now that we are desktop racing...
if all things are equal, and you only focus on the HP/WT ratio you would need to have the same rider on the all bikes to compare.
But that will never be the case, however lets take a look at it
Mighty Duc's Bike is 295#s and has 92ish RWHP
If am geared up and sit on that bike, the bike and I will weight 440# (yeah I am one skinny little F*** I know ;D)
HP/WT = .20909
Now you take a guy that is 180#s and has 15#s of gear, put him on a bike that Weights 365# (rough guess of a Gixxer 600).
If the gixxer has 110 RWHP the HP/WT = .1964
on paper the Duc, with me as a rider would be a clear advantage, however Road racing is more skill driven and equipment driven then HP driven (at the club level).
I hear SVs can make 100 RWHP when built, but I don't know about the RC51. I really doubt the power of an RC51 is less then 120.. but thats a guess.
SV @ 365# w/100HP HP/WT = .2739
RC51 @465# w/120HP HP/WT = .2580
(Stock)SV @ 365# w/65HP HP/WT = .1780
as far as wt=1 hp, the weight of motorcycle and rider breaks down to 5#s is equal to one HP.
So when you are sitting down to dinner tonight reaching for that 2nd helping... just think what 20# of gut eqauls out on the race track! (BTW that would be roughly 4HP)
Well I figured I should add more to what I wrote....
When talking Horse power, people often over look the fact that HP ratings, are only Peak HP.
In the real world, we don't have the bikes at Peak power all the time. At this point it, what makes a big differance is power is, in the range of RMP you use it.
When racing, HP only come into play while 100% in the trottle, lets not over look Braking and Corner Speed.
Braking... (laws of kenitics) Things in motion tend to stay in motion. The more mass you have to stop, the more energy must be used.To prove this, hop on your street, do a few hard brake checks... then add a passanger, rinse and repeat.
Corner Speed...
In drag racing, racers start from a dead stop. If you look from Corner exiting to next corner racing to be a drag strip, the advantage will be to the racer that is going fast to begin with...
In my opinion... I would rather be @ BHF on an SV then an RC51, unless you are a Honda rep. and you are going to give me a RC51 ;D
Stock for stock....
I'd bet the RC51 would do better in lap times at MAM. In stock form, suspension wise, neither is the greatest. So, the RC has 120HP vs the SV's 70 or so. By how much, it would probably be close.
HP doesn't make for substantially faster lap times. If it did, a racer that has two bikes would go substantially faster on his higher HP bike. Fact is, Larry Denning doesn't go much faster on his R1 than he does on his R6.
Lightnin Larry...where are you?
so how does this weight to hp equation really work? now it's mah understanding of the generalization... 7lbs=1hp. but i've been advised that is a generalization, and it differs from byke to byke depending on the compression, and torque. so how much hp advantage do i really have @ 105lbs, which is mah projected max weight...for 105x7=15 hp lost total on mah body. i still need to figure in the weight of tha gear, but i want a # for max weight so i have tha most advantages possible for mah slow a$$. just inquiring on tha subject... sweets - rhiannon :-*
and that is on an f-2, if it even matters... :-/
Well, it almost doesn't matter, in some ways. IF EVERYTHING IS EQUAL, it probably matters more. But, again, in road racing, HP is definitely not everything.
F2? We were doing high 14's to 16's at Blackhawk in 1993 on them in legal supersport trim. Bikes are capable, but the rider has to be responsible for the correct suspension set up. And that's the real key.
If you were awesome with set up, you were really experienced, your combination weighed less, it might have a slight advantage.
Again, Denning goes maybe a half to three quarters of a second faster at BFR on his R6 vs R1. 30HP difference? So, lets just say 5# per HP...so that makes the R1 150# "lighter" so to speak given the senario I've made up....
The time isn't much, is it?
But Ed Key goes so fast...
Yeah, he knows how to ride, tune, and set up a bike. The intensity that he rides is pretty high an that's what makes him so tough.
Well, how much does your F2 weigh?
It's not 15 HP wasted. That's 15 HP used on your body. On a bigger bike, Your body might be allotted 20 HP, but the bike will be faster because it has less lbs per HP to lug around.
OK, Let's assume the F2 is 430 lbs 1/2 full of fuel and You're 105 lbs. If the bike makes 88 HP, that means there's 88 HP pushing 535 lbs total.
So, each HP is pushing 6.07 lbs (535/88 )
Let's say someone else is 180 lbs in gear. That means the total weight is 610 lbs.
So, each HP is pushing 6.93 lbs for them.
So, how much LESS HP would = 6.93 lbs/hp for you?
Well, 535/6.93 = 77.2. So, for you 2 to have the same weight/Hp ratio, you'd have to have 77.2 HP. So, basically, in this example, it's like you having 11 HP on him.
This is just an example, and depends on the actual bike weight and HP. In this case, you CAN use the 7 lbs/HP thing, because this works out to about 10.7. Some people misuse that though, and see it as taking 7 lbs off of the bike itself = 1 HP over the bike before losing the weight.
Point is, If the F2 weighs 430 wet, and makes 88 HP, you have an 11 HP advantage over someone weighing 180 in full gear.
My F2 weighed in the AMA scales with fuel at 410 and it made 93HP on Power Mist T111 in AMA/CCS Supersport trim. I weighed in at 165.
Regardless, my point is, HP doesn't substantially change lap times with all things being equal. If we're equating HP with weight, then that's relavant. If you wanted to make things weigh less, then get lighter wheels so the suspension doesn't work so hard and the bike can be easier to turn.
Well, right, it is relevant. The point here was that her bodyweight makes a rather significant difference in the ratio.
My friend (SV) has been giving me (RC51) crap about only being a few seconds faster at MAM. We're at about the same skill level. I'm not sure by how much, but I weigh more than he does. It's all in good fun; just wondered what thoughts you guys had. ;D ;)
(EDIT) By "guys" I always mean "guys and gals"! ;)
okay okay, so i need corner speed and experience. i was just wondering how much advantage i really have if someone with a very similar riding capability was dicing it out with me. i'd like to know if we were on the same byke how i could really use the hp at the end of the race if i was trailing by a smidge...but that depends a lot on the size of the track. i guess i'm just looking for all handicaps to make up for my inexperience. three years since i learned to clutch and throttle a 2 wheeled device...gotta lotta heada me! :o
sweets and thanx - rhiannon :-*
QuoteHP doesn't make for substantially faster lap times. If it did, a racer that has two bikes would go substantially faster on his higher HP bike. Fact is, Larry Denning doesn't go much faster on his R1 than he does on his R6.
Again, Denning goes maybe a half to three quarters of a second faster at BFR on his R6 vs R1. 30HP difference? So, lets just say 5# per HP...so that makes the R1 150# "lighter" so to speak given the senario I've made up....
Like I said before, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.
QuoteLike I said before, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.
Which means I'm just faster than my buddy. ;D ;)
There is only one way to truely find out...
Trade bikes ;D
QuoteThere is only one way to truely find out...
Trade bikes ;D
Exactly...
No, that doesn't work either, since both should be afraid of crashing someone else's bike.
In the end, there are only results, everything else is excuses ;D
I'm not afraid of crashing his bike. ;D
I'm not afraid of crashing yours... ;D
QuoteI'm not afraid of crashing yours... ;D
I just ask that you lowside please. ;)
But I'm so much better at going over the top. ;D
this whole argument is ridiculous!!!
the more corner speed, the less time per lap. period.
weight shmate. HP., whatever! set-up set-up set-up.
that's what matters. handling. .25 sec per corner @
BHF=2.5-3sec per lap. stop fussen bout yer motors
and start working on the suspension. your bike will
thank you...then you can thank your sponsors.
Benj.
QuoteBut I'm so much better at going over the top. ;D
LOL!!!!
;D
Quotethis whole argument is ridiculous!!!
the more corner speed, the less time per lap. period.
weight shmate. HP., whatever! set-up set-up set-up.
that's what matters. handling. .25 sec per corner @
BHF=2.5-3sec per lap. stop fussen bout yer motors
and start working on the suspension. your bike will
thank you...then you can thank your sponsors.
Benj.
Suspension is already done on both bikes. ;)
Quotethis whole argument is ridiculous!!!
the more corner speed, the less time per lap. period.
weight shmate. HP., whatever! set-up set-up set-up.
that's what matters. handling. .25 sec per corner @
BHF=2.5-3sec per lap. stop fussen bout yer motors
and start working on the suspension. your bike will
thank you...then you can thank your sponsors.
Benj.
DITTO.
Benji we see eye to eye on this one. Guys that blow $4k on a "SuperSport" motor, and whine the next weekend when they blow the damn thing up... when they should've spent it on suspension setup, etc...
But this is a whole other topic altogether. HP means practically nothing on a roadrace course unless it's a serious HP track, like Road America.
DanO, riding my stock GSX-R750, went 18s at BHF last year. So did I. Then DanO hopped on his R6 (down a solid 25hp from the Gixxer) and went... 18s. He and I are pretty close as far as rider ability is concerned. HP means nothing.
Jim
"Stock right down to the exhaust can" Racing
Quote HP means nothing.
Again, that was my point. ;)
I turned 1:24's at Jennings versus fast 600 AM's doing 1:22's with probably 20-40 more hp than me, while at the same time the SV riders with me ran neck and neck the whole time with 10-20 less hp. I think it depends on the track as to whether hp matters.
Tiger,
just because your suspension is "done", doesn't
mean that it is "dialed-in", track conditions, temp,
sunshine, etc,etc,etc.. they all have an effect on how the bike handles. period. HP often has a negative
effect on your bike's handling just ask any inline
Jap. liter rider. also... balls...Jimmy...now he's got
big balls. ;D
Benji.