I'd like to hear some opinions on the rule structure.
Not sure about some of the cc classifications, seems maybe the FZR 400 would be the prime choice...... With a class that's to support/showcase the lightweight bikes currently gracing the showroom floors and the direction of the AMA lightweight class, IMO vintage bikes are not what we should be training our up and coming riders on......
"The 500 SuperSport Championship is open to all manufacturers and will follow the current 2014 CCS SuperSport rules using the following displacement limits:
500 SUPERSPORT (Combined Amateur and Expert)
Single cylinder, up to 600cc
Twin cylinder, 2-stroke, up to 400cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 500cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, up to 650cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 400cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 500cc
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded from this class.
For complete rules, see Addendum 3 in the 2014 ASRA/CCS Rules and Procedures (http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2014/rules/2014%20asra-ccs%20rulebook.pdf). "
Maybe I'm wrong about what this class is intended to do?
Don't get me wrong this is an awesome step in the right direction and applaud CCS for their efforts! If I had known this was coming I would have put a bike together this past winter...... Timing not so good. ::)
What other bikes would be a good fit in this class under these rules?
This class screams CBR500 to me and might be a precursor to the new AMA lightweight class?
Quote from: sdiver68 on March 20, 2014, 11:39:23 PM
This class screams CBR500 to me and might be a precursor to the new AMA lightweight class?
That is exactly what I was thinking.
As far as the FRZ400 being the Over-dog, good luck finding one.
Not many were imported into the USA, many were raced... few were left at 400cc.
-X
Anyone else seeing 250 2t's blowing away any CBR500r out there?
Quote from: Doublea on March 21, 2014, 07:26:01 AM
Anyone else seeing 250 2t's blowing away any CBR500r out there?
Sportsport class, GP bikes are not eligible.
So, if you want to find and race a TZR-250 there... Enjoy spending your money.
-X
Or an Aprilia 250 cup? I'm sure someone will be "that guy" that brings one to the show though, it's just a matter of who and when.
Has CCS considered the idea of a completely spec series? I mean everyone has their own definition of spec- I'm not talking 'all bikes prepared by the same supplier', rather make a class that's only open to one bike- i.e. '13+ CBR500r. There are no other competitors in the 500 twin market at this time, so why not?
It seems like that would draw more support from Honda OEM- you get people buying and racing their bikes only.
I was thinking more like putting a limit on the production date of the bikes. Keep it a modern affair with bikes dating back no more than 10 years......
I agree CBR 500 is where it's likely to settle in and there is no better machine for this class, but there needs to be a way to leave all yesteryears bikes in the past and focus on what's currently being produced. Doing so will only grow the sport and sell bikes in the process. It only takes one guy showing up on a "Niche" bike and sweeping the fun right out of the class......
My opinion in speculation is that it may turn up to be a good class to start for anyone. it provides room for the Ninja 300 and still allow the Ninja 250 to have their spec 250 class(Florida Region only).
CCS provides a format where any kind of bike can have a place to race competitively. In my impression it provides for a wide variety of bikes and riders wishing to put a package together to race. Racing for me isn't just about the rider, but it is also about the Builder of the machine, the Suspension expert that does his/her magical tuning, the Electronics Whiz that does his own magic, and the rider/racer that makes it all work. Sometimes having more money will make up for not having as much talent, but you must have some talent to get a fast bike around quickly.
Being an owner and racer of three FZR400 I would say it will not be a class killer. Maybe a grey market FZR will be better but I am not sure if there are many out there. My 1988-1990 US version FZR have a difficult time with the EX 500. My strongest FZR motor produces a whopping 59.8rwhp and I think Mark E. has stated a 62 hp out of his 1mil over SS spec FZR400.
The weight of the FZR is actually heavier than a SV so no lightweight wonder there. the stock forks are 37mm whereas the CBR500 has a 41mm fork. I seem to think the CBR will have the handling advantage but it may need it if the reported 430 curb weight is true. The aprillia 250 much like the Suzuki 250 has a reported 60 hp and it is heavy. After all it is a street bike.
I still think the CBR500 is the screamer for the class. We won't know until it comes out.
Oh...not much tire selection for the FZR 18" rear wheel. The best DOT is the Brigestone BT090 which is now considered Vintage or even track day tires. I think one of those street motards use the BT090.
Quote from: MAZZ77X on March 21, 2014, 09:14:28 PM
I was thinking more like putting a limit on the production date of the bikes. Keep it a modern affair with bikes dating back no more than 10 years......
I agree CBR 500 is where it's likely to settle in and there is no better machine for this class, but there needs to be a way to leave all yesteryears bikes in the past and focus on what's currently being produced. Doing so will only grow the sport and sell bikes in the process. It only takes one guy showing up on a "Niche" bike and sweeping the fun right out of the class......
I don't think you will need to fear my FZR running with any of that. I have raced it in the Ultralight super bike and certainly it is outclassed by the SV, Ducati 800, Hawk 650, EX 500....
What I am relegated to is, with the help of Michael Perry, formulating a Vintage class specific to the Florida Region. No other vintage organization will allow the FZR because it is too new. What you are suggesting is that the FZR is too old.
If my FZR runs away with it, then ban it if it does. Simple as that.
Mark, thanks for that info on the FZR. It's a bike I know nothing about but have been told by others that it would be a class killer.
I also agree with your statement about it being a good all around combination of man, machine, and preparation that make a great class. If this info was available in the fall my son would be riding the CBR 500 as we speak, but since I just spent a good chunk of money refreshing the 250 it will have to wait until it sells......
EJC CBR 500 bikes were quoted to be making 55HP and weighting in at around 350lbs.
EJC bikes are 321lbs.... Not bad!
I like the concept of the class. It fills the void and gives these bikes a class to be competitive in. On tighter courses, I think one of the street legal KTM or Husky supermotards would be right up front with a huge weight advantage. The class killer will an Aprilia SXV450.
This class is similar to the Lightweight Sportsman class when I started in 2000.No Ducati and no SV 650 allowed.My FZR 400 is a street bike that can be put on the track.I can ride it 400mi a day no problem.At summit i'm gonna actually ride it to the track and take the lights off and race it as I got no way to get 3 bikes to the track.My bike weight is 410lbs with a full tank of gas.It made 62hp in 2000.When I got it he said it had a 1 mil piston with stock compression,the rest is all stock.So it is ok in the rules for supersport as your actually allowed to do that.I still got the same engine in it when I got it untouched and put 16,000mi on it since then.I never cleaned the carbs since 2000 and still runs good.
To clarify and address publicly a couple of emails we have received regarding this class; appears they may have been asked here resulting in the emails.
Aprilia RS250 "Cup" bikes were not street legal machines sold in North America, they were granted permission as a non-standard model for Lightweight Supersport. That permission for LSS does not translate into approval for 500SS. We will be watching the SXV450 for dominance as their US street certification I missed(thought it was only the 550 that received DOT compliance)
Displacement limits are absolute so while a modification may be SS legal a modification may push it outside the class rules. aka a 400 liquid cooled 4 cylinder is limited to 400cc not 400cc +1mm overbore.
It will run a limited schedule as a CCS class, to enter cross out a class you are not entering on the entry form write 500SS and bike info, the fee is $80 if your first class $55 if an add'l class. ($85/60 post entry).
We have made a commitment to this class for at least 2 years to determine growth and class rules as written.
The Aprilia RS250 is street legal in other parts of the world and can be in the USA with the know of doing the paperwork..Ive seen many on the road in Florida.At the shop I go to in Delaware they have one there with tags on it.
As for the FZR 400 my engine was put together over 20 years ago and never opened.In the rules for Supersport it says straight from the rulebook.
E. Engine modifications include the following:
(1.) Pistons which are no larger then 1mm over stock size maybe used but must be same compression ratio as the OEM piston.
It is a Supersport class so it is allowed.
A properly ridden TZR250 would be the bike to win on, I think... the motor is basically a TZ motor with some different carbs, and a few other bits. Could have basically a TZ with a TZR frame,
But running a TZ for this class could be over-kill on the track, and on the wallet.
Heck, even an RZ350 that was dudded up, could haul the mail.
I guess the CC limit is max no matter what even if the rules say 1mm is ok but if it goes over the limit you can't do it.Guess It's time to take apart my engine after all these years and find a way to make it back to stock 399cc.
Wonder how a Ducati 620 would do.
Quote from: Capitalview on March 25, 2014, 11:40:54 PM
Wonder how a Ducati 620 would do.
I think the note states:
NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded from this class.
A Duc 620 is not the Duc Supermono.
Monster 620 is heavy, slow, and out of production. Ducati is going away from the air cooled engines completely- this year.
I spoke to Al Luddington at AMA last week, they have not written the rules yet. He did state the primary bikes for the class will be the KTM 390 or the Honda.
Why not do like AMA and just make a list of bikes that are eligible? Of course their rule book is complicated, and subject to a million technical bulletins and exceptions......
Sounds like a neat class, I wish I was 100 pounds lighter, I'd run that little KTM in the AMA!
Just curious, what kind of hp does a TZ 250 make? My Aprilia 250 cup made about 60... The KTM and Honda are in the 55 range?
http://www.ktm.com/supersport/rc-390/highlights.html
While it is a bit heavy and hasn't been made for a while, I would imagine a well prepared 620 / 620ie would be competitive. They are certainly easier to find than a SS legal FZR400. You can get one for well less than the price of a new CBR500 (particularly with all of the add-on costs of a new bike purchase). Figuring out the handling shouldn't be that different than the other Monsters already racing in other series and classes, so you would be a step on the Honda there as well. What you will not get is Honda contingency, assuming they are paying it, you are fast enough and there are enough people in the race. Oh, and the other thing you don't get with the Honda is the Ducati parts bill when something breaks or needs maintenance. :ahhh:
Quote from: Gino230 on March 27, 2014, 12:21:01 PM
Just curious, what kind of hp does a TZ 250 make? My Aprilia 250 cup made about 60... The KTM and Honda are in the 55 range?
250GP bikes will normally make 70-75 hp in stock trim, depending on which generation/age, and state of tune. Then there's hot-rod parts out there for sure, and lots of gains to be made based on real tuning (case stuffing, head volume & squish, fuel and exhaust, etc).
Ok. Can someone explain to me the note? NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded from this class
It doesn't mean that all Ducati, Bimota, BMW Supermono and Woods Rotax bikes are excluded? The only "Supermono" style bike Ducati ever made was the Hypermotard and that doesn't meet the displacement requirements. Bimota is the same.
Just not sure what the point of the note is if it is supposed to mean motard style bikes only.
Gino, TZ250 is in the high 70 to 80hp range.
My 1991 RS 125 had 40 HP and I would speculate a 250 would have 80 HP.
I would expect the "Note" excludes the Ducati, Bimota, BMW, woods to tax motored bikes from this class
Quote from: jfboothe on March 27, 2014, 05:47:25 PM
Ok. Can someone explain to me the note? NOTE: Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax are excluded from this class
It doesn't mean that all Ducati, Bimota, BMW Supermono and Woods Rotax bikes are excluded? The only "Supermono" style bike Ducati ever made was the Hypermotard and that doesn't meet the displacement requirements. Bimota is the same.
Just not sure what the point of the note is if it is supposed to mean motard style bikes only.
Not supermotard, hypermotard, etc
It is specific models made for a world superbike class called SuperMono Cup.
Here is info on the Ducati model
http://www.ducatiusa.com/history/90s/supermono/index.do
So the Honda and KTM are very similar in power to weight......... ::)
Now I just need to sell our Ninja 250.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on March 27, 2014, 07:56:11 PM
Not supermotard, hypermotard, etc
It is specific models made for a world superbike class called SuperMono Cup.
Here is info on the Ducati model
http://www.ducatiusa.com/history/90s/supermono/index.do
Thank you for clarifying that.
This conversation is the reason Spec racing makes so much sense. Simplicity. A rider knows exactly what to bring, and has the exact same tool as the front runner. Leaving the only variable the rider.
I like the intention of the 500 Super Sport class, but I feel it should be designated as a spec class for the CBR500R (or any other major manufacturer that decides to produce a 500cc liquid cooled non Desmo 4 valve twin) in line with current AMA Harley Davidson / Vance & Hines Sportster 1200 class requirements.
I agree that if the true spirit of this new feeder class is supposed to act as a stepping stone to the larger classes, the emphasis should be establishing a MODERN base motorcycle so rider talent is highlighted.
Considering the RZ350, FZR400, and RS250 as options loses the true spirit of the class. In that case, the class should really be relabelled as ULSS (Ultra Light Super Sport) because based on Super Sport rules and displacement limitations, that's what it really is.
When I started in 2000 the class was called Lightweight Sportsman,the rules is very similar to the 500 supersport class of today.
Does anyone else think an ex500 would be competitive? Looking to get into my first year of racing within the next year or 2 and I have an 2005 ninja 500 sitting at home.
I do have a EX500 streetbike also but never raced it.Can it be competitive?It has to be supersport rules. Well depends on how many bikes there will be .I think it can with the CBR500.Don't know about an FZR400 as that bike will have a top speed advantage maybe 10 mph faster but less torque out of the turns.It does have an 18 inch wheel in the back so rear tire selection isn't as good.
Well I'm going to be at summit point as a spectator on Memorial Day when the 500 supersport runs the first time. I'm interested to see how big the field is and the bikes that are competitive. Like I said I'm looking to get into racing within a year or 2 and it would be easier on the wallet if I can competitively race a bike I already own! :cheers:
Wait till someone brings a RVF400. All the 400's should dominate this class.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is pretty damn close to WERA's D-supersport, right? Seems like CCS sort of needed a place for those bikes anyway...
Quote from: Swiest on May 16, 2014, 11:09:43 AM
Wait till someone brings a RVF400. All the 400's should dominate this class.
I think some of you are forgetting that these bikes are 20 years old, there's not many left in supersport legal configuration.
The KTM or Honda will be the bike to be on. Should be fun and I hope the participation takes off like it has in the 250 class.
Gonna pay pretty penny for the nc30 or nc35. Even FZR400 are hard to find for good price.
Don't know if they will let the other japanese bikes in a supersport as the bike has to be a streetbike from north america.In superbike they say worldwide.The Aprilia RS250 was sold as a streetbike in europe and other places but not usa or canada,but you can get tags for it in the usa or canada with knowing the way to do it and i have seen many with tags. So will they let the other bikes in???
6.1 SUPERSPORT - SuperSport motorcycles are production machines sold by
manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via
normal commercial channels. All machines must have unaltered VIN
numbers. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine.
6.1.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for
street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be
approved on an individual basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard
approved models and that list will be available at each event from the
27
28
Race Director.
Quote from: apriliaman on May 17, 2014, 09:16:13 AM
Don't know if they will let the other japanese bikes in a supersport as the bike has to be a streetbike from north america.In superbike they say worldwide.The Aprilia RS250 was sold as a streetbike in Quote from: apriliaman on May 17, 2014, 09:16:13 AM
Don't know if they will let the other japanese bikes in a supersport as the bike has to be a streetbike from north america.In superbike they say worldwide.The Aprilia RS250 was sold as a streetbike in europe and other places but not usa or canada,but you can get tags for it in the usa or canada with knowing the way to do it and i have seen many with tags. So will they let the other bikes in???
6.1 SUPERSPORT - SuperSport motorcycles are production machines sold by
manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via
normal commercial channels. All machines must have unaltered VIN
numbers. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine.
6.1.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for
street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be
approved on an individual basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard
approved models and that list will be available at each event from the
27
28
Race Director.
Don't forget, North America starts at Panama and encompasses everything North. There's a few more countries down there that may have those bikes available.
Quote from: apriliaman on May 17, 2014, 09:16:13 AM
Don't know if they will let the other japanese bikes in a supersport as the bike has to be a streetbike from north america.In superbike they say worldwide.The Aprilia RS250 was sold as a streetbike in europe and other places but not usa or canada,but you can get tags for it in the usa or canada with knowing the way to do it and i have seen many with tags. So will they let the other bikes in???
6.1 SUPERSPORT - SuperSport motorcycles are production machines sold by
manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via
normal commercial channels. All machines must have unaltered VIN
numbers. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the machine.
6.1.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for
street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be
approved on an individual basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard
approved models and that list will be available at each event from the
27
28
Race Director.
Mark, I used to have an Aprillia RS250, the VIN is one digit short. The guys who have tags go to the DMV and add a zero on the end. At least that used to be the trick. But the bike is not legal for street use and was sold as a track bike.
It was allowed in LW classes that allowed the full on 250's, and there was a special exemption for MW sportsman as I recall.
Imagine trying to write a rule that would allow the Aprilia 250 but not the Honda or TZ? Nightmare.
With all of the bikes being named, do you think they will be cheaper once race prepped than just getting a new Honda 500 or KTM? I'm honestly asking as I don't know.
2015 schedule for this class?
i believe it's at all the events now, not just select ones.
yep all events except the Florida region
I got an email back from Henry DeGouw... He will consider adding the class based on interest level. Sooo if you'd support this class and show up on the grid, send Henry an email!
Quote from: notbostrom on February 02, 2015, 10:34:02 AM
I got an email back from Henry DeGouw... He will consider adding the class based on interest level. Sooo if you'd support this class and show up on the grid, send Henry an email!!
Could you say that a little louder??? :ahhh: Im working on sourcing a new engine for my 400,so fingers crossed i can make the grid for 500ss :thumb:
Quote from: notbostrom on February 02, 2015, 10:34:02 AM
I got an email back from Henry DeGouw... He will consider adding the class based on interest level. Sooo if you'd support this class and show up on the grid, send Henry an email!!
not sure what happened there but it was supposed to say
I got an email back from Henry DeGouw... He will consider adding the class based on interest level. Sooo if you'd support this class and show up on the grid, send Henry an email!!
Anyone know what gearing for Daytona on a SS Fzr400?
PS. Roll call for 500SS ............... who's coming to Daytona?
I got 2 buddies racing their 500's at daytona. probably GTL, 500ss, maybe lightweight sport bike.
There were 3 500's at homestead but only my buddy raced. not sure what's holding the other guys back from getting some laps in.
Roll call for 500ss Atlantic/mid-atlantic region...... I just picked up my 500ss bike to do my first full CCS regional season.Not a very competitive bike,but oh well :whine: it was a hundred bucks :biggrin:
I'm in see you there.
Fix your signature Ben "Notbostom"! :)
Hello to all,
I am new to the forum and since I did not see a new members area, I will post here since this is the topic I am most interested in. My name is Dave and I live in northern Illinois. Last year I started racing an early 80's Ducati Pantah 650 with AHRMA. I did the Road America and Grattan events and had a really great time. I really want to get more track time but AHRMA has a pretty limited schedule in the midwest. CCS on the other hand, has a really good midwest schedule, RA, Blackhawk, Autobahn, and Gingerman are all just a couple hours drive for me. Plus I have done a handful of track days at Blackhawk and it would be nice to actually race there as well.
So my question is this, what kind of class is 500 SS turning into? How are the grids in the midwest and what kind of bikes are showing up? After reading the rules, my 650 Pantah should slot right in quite nicely, but earlier posts talk about this being a class taylor made for the cbr500 and other such bikes. Then there are other posts talking about FZR400's being the big dog. Would I stick out like a sore thumb or ruffle any feathers with my piece of old iron? But if you think about it, my bike is really not that antiquated. Trellis frames and belt drive air cooled two valve ducks can still be found everywhere.
Thanks,
Dave
Assuming you read the rulebook......if it fits in the class legally then run it!! :thumb: :thumb:
Show up and race!
I have raced both AHRMA and CCS. CCS is a little different environment, there are the modern classes which are more competitive, however there are many "sportsman" type classes which have weekend warriors similar to the AHRMA paddock.
I say go for it and have fun. Welcome to the fold!
I've got a set of Bridgestone race rubber for an FZR400 with 18" rear I no longer intend to use. Will sell for less than I paid for them..