Thank you all for your support throughout the 2012 season. Congrats to Walter Ferreyra for winning the ULTB national championship at the Daytona ROC, and all of the other regional champions, Anthony Mazziotto III, Shon Staton, and Bruce Barry. 2012 has been a fantastic year.
As you know, the Ultra Light Thunder Bike riders have all been running under a gentleman's agreement to keep their bikes 250cc and unmodified. This was due to a CCS rule change after 2011 which opened up the class to other machines and modifications which would create a HP advantage. Ultra Light thunder bike riders showed their support in hopes that the ruling would change for 2013 limiting the displacement and mods as agreed to under the gentleman's agreement. As previously mentioned, running under the gentleman's agreement for 2012 has been huge success.
I am now being informed that CCS has decided to allow 300cc machines into the class, again completely out classing the current 250cc riders. At this time only one manufacturer is building a 300cc machine and it is said to have much more Horsepower than the 250. Why risk loosing the current following to allow a higher horsepower machine to run in a class which has a strong following and growing?
A 300cc machine is better suited to run in GTL, LWGP, thunder bike.
May 4,2011
"Ultralight ThunderBike is basically a SuperSport 250s class for bikes such as the Ninja and Honda 250, which aren't as competitive in other classes." said Kevin Elliott, owner of the Championship Cup Series. "Single & Twin cylinder liquid-cooled engines up to 250cc as well as Twin Cylinder air-cooled 350cc machines qualify for this class. Although some restrictions apply, bikes must be completely stock OEM for the most part and run street tires."
I agree. If they allow the 300 in the "Spec" class it must be scored seperate. Maybe like a LW Superbike within the LW Supersports???
The whole theory behind the 250 is equality...... ::)
Is Kevin going to allow 700cc bikes in to MW? That is equivalent to what was done in ULWTB. Maybe with an intake restrictor, the SCCA Mazda spec class uses that system to good effect.
Turn out has been progressively larger every event. With riders from other classes showing interest in joining.
Why mess with a good thing?
Even when they made it open class, everyone agreed to keep it fair. Unless there is more than a dozen NEW racers showing up tomorrow all with brand new 300's they should allow the class to make the decision themselves, how many people could have possibly petitioned for this considering the 300 is barely in the showroom?
Or was it just a couple of loud voices?
And thus the conundrum of racing classes. Do you make it a class for the has been, and the new bike must race up a class? Or do you make it part of a current class which the has been becomes the also ran.
It is what happened with the ultralight super bike class when they allowed the SV into it. The SV had been competitive in the next higher class until the bimota completely blew it away.
The SV which was competitive in lightweight now is dominant in ultralight with little mods and even comparative to a Ducati 1000 in supersport. But yet the Ducati 900 is not allowed in ultralight.
In the end I think CCS has always catered more towards the new model bikes and the older bikes get outclassed. In this sense I believe the thinking would be if you are on a bike that the same manufacturer has upgraded to a faster bike, then get the newer faster bike. I know this mentality may work in the bigger class but it makes a huge difference in the 250 class. I guess that is why it's called ultralight thunder bike and not the 250 class.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 12, 2012, 11:00:56 PM
And thus the conundrum of racing classes. Do you make it a class for the has been, and the new bike must race up a class? Or do you make it part of a current class which the has been becomes the also ran.
It is what happened with the ultralight super bike class when they allowed the SV into it. The SV had been competitive in the next higher class until the bimota completely blew it away.
The SV which was competitive in lightweight now is dominant in ultralight with little mods and even comparative to a Ducati 1000 in supersport. But yet the Ducati 900 is not allowed in ultralight.
In the end I think CCS has always catered more towards the new model bikes and the older bikes get outclassed. In this sense I believe the thinking would be if you are on a bike that the same manufacturer has upgraded to a faster bike, then get the newer faster bike. I know this mentality may work in the bigger class but it makes a huge difference in the 250 class. I guess that is why it's called ultralight thunder bike and not the 250 class.
I say go with what the majority is requesting. At this time it is true parity amongst machines with truly low cost. Having to run out and buy a new $4000.00 motorcycle or modify our current race bikes when we have perfectly capable machines in our garages does not accomplish this. Remember that the Ninja 250 in it's current trim was still produced in 2012. There is nothing old about it.
This class has been growing in many country's around the world for the last few years and is growing for many reasons. some reasons are that the class will be the best class around the world for young pilots in the next years. one of them is the low cost of it, and another one is that its so competitive. The most important is that the class is very good for learning, also all these reasons are what are helping young pilots with low economy resources. We already have the 125's the moriwaky's and the 250 spec class "ninjas", that's why i think that putting the 300cc class is unnecessary. So i hope that the "CCS INSTITUTION" leaves the 250 spec class stays how it is, and i hope that the CCS TECH INSPECTION makes sure that all the bikes are the same.
I will see you in the spec class in a year!!
REMEMBER THIS WILL BE THE BEST CLASS ON WORLD IN THE NEXT YEARS!!!
Sean Dylan Kelly #40 im 11 years old
10 championships (FLAMRA, SEMRA, OMRL (ohio), PBIR SERIES, FL SUPERMOTO, 305 MOTARD) THANK YOU SO MUCH!
i do not see why the new bike should not be allowed the difference in the HP is not that big. i believe it would be a good idea to keep the class growing not have it stuck with a certain older models
Mr. Elliot has you know me in the past, for running the Ninja 250 last year in the ASRA Michelin TC pro-series and taking third place in then national tittle. I have supported the 250 Spec class since the conception of the idea, to run this class in Florida. I knew it was a great idea for the introduction of young riders like my daughters for example, they can not wait to get on the track. Also was a great idea for beginner female riders as we will see next year.
The 250 class was created for a lot of different reasons, but mainly a race class that the blue collar worker can afford for them and their families. We can build a very competitive bike for less than $3,000.00, a lot of vendors are making race components for these bikes now, like woodcraft, vortex, dynojet, ect. Even vendors like Dunlop are making offers to the spec class to introduce their tires, a class mostly dominated by Bridgstone tires.
Also the Spec class was created to be a race base on skills not performance, I have seen a rider in a 06 EX250 out run and out skill another rider on a 09 250r. At the last Jennings GP 2 hour endurance race 14 250 where present at the grid, we had as many bikes as the light, middle, and unlimited class combine, that tell the racing community, that is a big interest in racing the 250 class.
Mr. Elliot is my concern that the introduction or allowing the 300 in the 250 spec class will drastically reduce the class grid and turn a lot of new young riders, females, and blue collar workers away from the sport. I personally will not spend the money in another 250 for my girls, if I know they can not compete against the 300. reason I left the formula 40 middle weight class when they allow 750.
Mr Elliot I personally thing it will be financially a great idea to keep the class as it is, as the grid keeps getting larger after every event, by allowing the 300 we may just change the name to Kawasaki 300 class, since Honda or the upcoming Yamaha will not be able to compete. I know the final decision is made at your office, but financially will be a disaster for CCS to allow the 300 in the 250 spec class, since a lot of the 250 spec class riders will stop riding the CCS events and move to the local GP events like the Jennings GP events.
As of today I have not seen a 250 spec rider get off the bike, that has not stop smiling after any race!
Regards.
Frank De La Renta
CCS# E 130 TC# 46
Frank, you must send your request to the Texas office and better by email directly to the contacts listed on the CCS ASRA site.
Quote from: sami888 on December 13, 2012, 01:14:31 AM
i do not see why the new bike should not be allowed the difference in the HP is not that big. i believe it would be a good idea to keep the class growing not have it stuck with a certain older models
...and therefore the conundrum
Miguel, I understand fully your point, but in speculation will only one person go out and by the 300cc and dominate the whole series? Believe me I know what it is to run an underpowered machine. You observed this in the Vintage race at homestead, but it is still a lot of fun.
May I suggest not banning the 300cc machine but maybe look at regulating it you could do intake restriction but exhaust restriction can also be done. Stock dimension exhaust of ??? Can be instituted allowing the 250 a chane to regain some of the performance deficit. Yes I know keeping it affordable is the priority, but if I bought a crashed 300cc for $500 I would think it is affordable. In that same spirit ny FZR 400 cost me $700 in total to make race ready but yet it is uncompetitive in ultralight, not legal in ultralight thunder bike and sorely out classed in lightweight. Should they make a class specific for my old bike? I wish they would. The FZR 400 had its day as a spec class racer and a lightweight supersport racer. Now there are faster bikes.
I wish there was a 400 class and I would welcome the 300cc within the class
I'm dissappointed in CCS' decission to include the 300 in the ULWTB class. I haven't posted my disslike of this on the forum becasue I want to give it some time to sink in and not sound bitter and negative. My initial thought is to allow it in ULWTB because it needs a place to race. But it is a first year bike and Kawi is the only one with a 300, so let the 1 or 2 that show up run at the front of ULWTB pac or chase the ULWSB pac ? Or leave the class structure as they wish and run an ULWSS class with a 250cc limit. CCS made Thunderbike rules to allow engine mods so those that want to run with the 300 now have an option, open your wallet !! The other option available to all of us is to seek out an organization that better suits your preferance....
I like the supersport for the 250 and thunder bike for the 300. That would allow the older 250 and the current 250 a chance against the new 300. Some class restructuring would need to be done. Currently there is a ultralight thunder bike and there is an ultralight super bike. If there is another class named ultralight supersport shouldn't it be a 650cc water cooled twin or a 800cc air cooled twin?
I'm gonna have to agree with Bruce on this one. Since I own a 250 I would like the class to be structured to suit me. Most of us feel the same, I'm sure. The truth is its irritating to argue our point because in the end CCS doesn't really need our money. I'm sure they would like to have it, but if the class goes away, guys will still be racing. If everyone with a 600 decided to bail, then there would be problems, but there's simply not enough of us to impact the decisions. If Kawi puts out a new bike like the 300 or even the old 636, race orgs are going to do what they can to fit the bike into a class. It's not in their best interest to discourage the purchase of a new model, just doesn't make sense.
As far as finding another org, I did the math last night and to race the north FL region of the other org, it will cost me $2,000 more in fuel alone plus hotel costs. I can almost buy a new 300 and stay with CCS (and maybe beat Miguel and Walter. :0
I don't really feel like driving to Alabama to go racing.
It is what it is. The problem I see coming is things like the Jennings endurance race will suffer because there's gonna have to be multiple classes because our rules won't fit with wera. The point was for everybody to be on the same bike.
As far as opening the wallet to build a 250.... It's "cheaper" than selling the 250 and setting up another bike but it's still kind of pointless to me. Who said, "you can only feed the hamster so much cocaine."?
About this time last year CCS announced the ULWTB rules change to "open" to what we immediately showed our discomfort, and requested to keep it "restricted", after months of sending emails and waiting on a reply, CCS decided to stick to the "open" rule saying it was too late to change it , because of this we decided to go by a "gentleman's agreement" not to work on engines or any other mayor performance component.
I attended every round of 2012 FL region, 2 of them being also SE region and the Nationals "Dytona Race of Champions" and I haven't seen a single bike with engine work, as a matter of fact I won the National Champion title at Daytona on a stock bike.
100% of the riders honoring the gentleman's agreement is clearly showing CCS what we "the racers" want and this is a FACT not words or speculation, every single ULWTB license and entry check they've received was signed by a racer that want's a restricted affordable class to race but yet they don't listen to us.
We have yelled a huge NO! in CCS's face when they tried to turn our class on a budget clash, and we did it with facts, not a single racer has built or wants to build a 250cc superbike, looks like CCS wants to force us to do it but we keep saying NO!
2 weeks ago Jenning GP hosted their first time ever race with a dedicated class for the 250's, 14 bikes were on the grid including some old ninjas none of them was a superbike, I got the second best lap time of the race by .3 of a second again on a stock 250, most of the teams there were WERA racers who also race under a restricted class rule.
CCS should listen to US! we are the ones who pay licences and entries and spend money with vendors which are CCS sponsors, 2012 had clearly showed what we the racers want.
As far as the 300, I don't think there is a need to allow it in the class right now because it's very unlikely that this will get 10 new guys to buy a brqand new 300 and enter the class, most likely it may get one or none but will surely discourage the current class members and potential 2013 new comers who were planning to buy a cheap used 250 and race competitively on a small budget. CCS should wait 1 or 2 years and let other manufacturers come up with a comparable model, this will also allow us to find cheaper used 300's.
Allowing a new, bigger, better, more powerful machine that barely made it to the show rooms is just offering an advantage to the deepest pockets, there are many other CCS classes for them to go and buy advantages, we want this one class to be competitive and affordable, CCS please listen to us and act accordingly.
Walter Ferreyra CCS expert #555
A disappointed CCS member
I would say it is fairly unlikely many, if any of the other manufacturers will be building a 300. Even Kawasaki will sell a smaller displacement version of this bike in overseas markets where they have graduated licenses that require riders to start on 250cc or less motorcycles.
On a related note someone mentioned above that the 636 is back for 2013. Both the 2013 636 and the older 636 are legal for Middleweight Supersport - "4 cylinder. liquid cooled up to 640cc."
Quote from: 2blueYam on December 13, 2012, 12:32:55 PM
I would say it is fairly unlikely many, if any of the other manufacturers will be building a 300. Even Kawasaki will sell a smaller displacement version of this bike in overseas markets where they have graduated licenses that require riders to start on 250cc or less motorcycles.
On a related note someone mentioned above that the 636 is back for 2013. Both the 2013 636 and the older 636 are legal for Middleweight Supersport - "4 cylinder. liquid cooled up to 640cc."
the 300 is around 10 hp over the 250 which is about 30% more hp, i think this is a huge difference not comparable with the difference between the 600's and 636's
Might have to get me a 300 :spank:
It is time to get that 300 in the garage. $4k for a competitive bike sounds like the bargain.
Quote from: Knedragon on December 13, 2012, 03:37:56 PM
Might have to get me a 300 :spank:
Steve (Knedragon) and Morty (Race125) you guys are off the team. Lol . No honestly, I am glad that we had you G P guys out there with us supporting the stock 250 class at the Jennings GP endurance round.
Those of you who don't know them, they run 125 GP bikes with CCS Florida. Morty rode with Frank De la Renta, Steve Rode with me, and Scott Coccolli ran Doms 250 with Andres Jaramillo. all 3 of them are former Regional and National Champions. This class is not Just for newbies.
That was a good time.
If those two get a 300 I may as well too.
Mr.Tenn do you remember a few years ago when I was racing ultralight with my fzr 400? At that time they allowed air cooled twins up to 805cc.But water cooled 650cc twins weren't allowed yet.That is from 2005-2008.
That's what I am talking about Mark. I also raced my FZR 400 in 2009 against the Ducati 800 of Scott Robertson. I feel as though the SV is a superior machine and was once racing against the Ducati 900 air cooled in the lightweight class.
" Build it and they will come " ... isnt that what they Mr Marker
So I'll throw my bit into the pot - I'm one that IS waiting to see where the rules go for this class...why?...I'm tired of builder classes (1 only for me thanks) and I'm tired of being the HP underdog constantly - I race Lightweight at the moment which in CCS means 1000cc air cooled ducs and 1200cc air cooled buells, I too like the idea of a spec class with few modifications allowed, Kawi threw a monkey wrench in things with the discontinuation of the 250 in us markets and lets be serious, realistically the honda 250 wasn't going to run remotely well against the ex250 so it's already a one bike race...and that bike just got upgraded to a 300 for 2013, to a degree that's life and as one on the receiving end of many years of a hp disadvantage it will most likely mean I wait another year and see how this all pans out before investing in a bike for another class...I like the 250 because it's already cheap but I'm not up for another knife in a gun fight time
Don't wait, get in the class no matter what!
Quote from: twilkinson3 on December 14, 2012, 08:40:26 PM
I race Lightweight at the moment which in CCS means 1000cc air cooled ducs and 1200cc air cooled buells
Correction: 1100 cc Ducs and oh, don't forget, 1100 Bimotas and Peirobons that are $40k to $60k and Supersport legal.... Don't try to put the same wheels that come on the Bimota on your Ducati though, you would be cheating.
Lightweight used to be an entry level class... what a joke now!
You can have a paddock full of 600s for the entry price of Lightweight!
I don't believe the pierobon is legal for supersport that may be changing for 2013. By following the concept of the rules the bimota is produced for street use so it fits the rules including displacement limits. The Ducati monster with essentially the same 1100 motor is also legal and runs just as good as a Bimota in supersport. No one has complained about that. Charlie Mavros on his Ducati monster won this year at the ROC with performance equalling my Ducati 748
Going back to the Ultra Light Thunder bike class. I spoke to Henry Degouwe, the CCS Florida race promoter. Henry was of the opinion that the class has been very successful in it's 1st year. He agrees that the 300, would be better suited for the other classes such as LWGP, GTL, ULSB.
I think the Ultralight Thunderbike class is a great class. It should be kept and all due vigilance observed to keep the original intent.
While the 300 bike is very nice, it is not even close to being competitive in the "LWGP, GTL, or ULSB" classes you suggest, sorry.
For Ultralight I would venture to say a supersport class in in order with a 250cc max. Ultralight thunder bike could cater to the 300cc in stock(unaltered air box) form. and the 250 allowed a little more changes to be competitive.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on December 16, 2012, 05:02:24 PM
I think the Ultralight Thunderbike class is a great class. It should be kept and all due vigilance observed to keep the original intent.
While the 300 bike is very nice, it is not even close to being competitive in the "LWGP, GTL, or ULSB" classes you suggest, sorry.
Have to agree .... the Moriwaki would still destroy it and it has lots of trouble with the rest of the Lightweight class bikes unless we head to Jennings.
Like the GENIUS stated .... the 300 comes in the class ... you cant change anything but suspension and tires ....... 250 is what you guys have now
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on December 16, 2012, 05:02:24 PM
I think the Ultralight Thunderbike class is a great class. It should be kept and all due vigilance observed to keep the original intent.
While the 300 bike is very nice, it is not even close to being competitive in the "LWGP, GTL, or ULSB" classes you suggest, sorry.
Lol. I am not saying that it would be competitive. That was the position that the 250's were in before implementation of the ULTB class. I am just saying that it belongs in those other classes. CCS opened the ULTB class up AFTER implementation as a SS class for the 250 due to people not having SS legal 250s' (which is strange as I have not met one person who has one). We are now in a position where EVERY ONE has SS legal 250's. No one has a 300. If any one wants to go out and buy a 300 to race, they should race up a class as it is not a 250 but a 300.
Some people are mentioning the fun in being the under dog. The 300 should be the bike that those people are attracted to. Let them port, stroke, cam, power command, lighten, strengthen, and tune the heck out of them.
I would rather not be the under dog. I would rather race my 250 against other 250's who have not touched the motor as we did this year.
Steve you must mention that the "Genius" comment is meant in an endearing way.
Miguel I must question some of your motive here though. You mentioned that the 250 rider and bike was in a position to race in GT lights as the under dog. Then you somewhat demanded that there should be a specific class for your beloved 250 to run. Now it seems the 300cc motored bike is in the exact place to only run GT lights because it would totally obliviate the 250 field? Seems like a one-sided stance.
Let it be clear that I am not a 250 rider nor am I expected to purchase a bike, but I do support the thought and will give as much effort to making it work. Yes, it seems to me the lightweight class needs work. 1000 anything is not lighweight(motor displacement Steve) in my mind. Ultralight to me means it would be best suited to the 500cc and smaller. I max limit shoul be set for the class and then max limits for motor configurations.
Ur a GENIUS Mark !! I shoulda thought of that :banghead: ..... Hey things change,over time bikes change there fore rules have to be changed.The 300 comes in the class and can only be run bone stock,250 can run what you brung.It should be close racing then 8)
Agreed
There you have it. Two racers who each have three race bikes and do not intend on running in this class have agreed. Thanks guys :thumb: No really. It is good to hear other suggestions.
Miquel- what I am attempting to do is help to build the ultralight thunder bike class even though I don't participate in the racing. I still can participate by building the class. From the start I have given much advice and suggestions in getting the class accepted through Henry and ultimately Texas.
This class in its genesis has been similar to the Florida vintage series. What we the racers have done is to buy our own trophies through volunteers. We have a very nice perpetual trophy costing some $500. The regional trophy is also donated by one of the racers. More class participation is what we are after. If there are 30 bikes on the grid then I can understand limitations. My little FZR 400 is no power house compared to the other bikes on the vintage grid but it is loads of fun for me to race against them.
Thats just it ... so say 2-3 guys show up with new 300's ... you won't find a way to get them in the class and race ??? No you say put them in the other lightweight classes which they won't have a chance just like you say.I can see if there were 20-30 250's running down here in the class,then you have a point.It is pretty easy,you don't wanna buy a new 300 because of costs.The 300 comes in bone stock no mods and the 250 goes supersport mods which I think it already is but you guys have the gentlemans agreement,so now you can spend a couple of bucks on the 250's to keep them up to speed to run with the new 300's :ahhh: if the class grows more everyone will jump on the 300 once they start coming around some.
Hey Mark I have a bunch of trophies if you guys want them,they may be a little dirty,some may be bamged up a little but I have like 100 or so just sitting in the attic collecting dust.
Steve, Henry has been gracious and provides the top three plaques. Michael Perry has sourced the "Williams Cup" and received some donations for it. The regional trophy is not supplied by CCS but by one of the races. In the end we are happy to be out there on our old bikes and completely appreciate the help from Henry and CCS.
Can I go to 368cc? All kidding aside, new 300's remain stock (even exhaust for now- need to keep them heavy), 250 twins allow .060 over, singles .080, and allow head work but must retain OEM diameter valves. This should make a good reasonable match-up. Over time, you may find one or the other machine dominating, so you just add/subtract allowable mods to regain parody. I know this is not an ideal solution, but it looks as if the 300's are allowed- then you'd better up your ante!
First of all, hi everyone. This is mine first post and I do it to support the Spec Class
If it works don't fix it, this class is working great, increasing number of riders and interested riders are willing to join (I am one of them), therefore why should we go to an [/size]unknown path. None of the actual riders asked for this changes, and as far as I know no one claimed the need to race the 300. I [/size]don't[/size] understand whom [/size] is benefiting from this [/size]decision[/size], but most of the actual and future riders fell that it is against their interest. Everyone [/size]would[/size] be happier leaving it as it is.....[/size]
That was very confusing and disturbing. But, errr....thanks I think.
I am not sure if it was ever intended to be a spec class but it has been a thought put together by the riders. Keep building the class with full participation and then you could have some clout. As it is run the class with the gentleman's agreement and everyone will be happy. I don't know if anyone has bothered to spend too much money into it.
I have chosen not to run the 250 class but instead race my beloved FZR 400. It cost me a whopping $700 total to be race ready. It crashes well an the motor in stock form has performed for years with as little as a valve adjustment once a year. Fuel consumption is so low it just isn't worth it to me to get into another bike only to run this one class. I support getting this class growing in any way that I can.
My plans are to continue to grow the Florida Vintage Series by participating in that class with my FZR 400. I would love to see some of the old GPZ's out there too.
Hey guys,
Just a short recap of the conversation that I had with CCS this afternoon. I received an email congratulating us all on a job well done on our regional and national championships and thanking us for our support in 2012.
Some of the highlights of the conversation was the significant increase in grid size from 0.7 entries per event in 2011 to 3.4 entries per event in 2012. This is great news as it proves that what ever we are doing is working. It was also a positive conversation as we now have some information to work with.
I was given several reasons as to why the rules proposal was not accepted and as to why the 300 was added. They are listed below.
-Cost of enforcement of spec rules.
-CCS Does not promote vintage racing.
-CCS does not cater to running economy classes.
-There is no evidence that the opening up of the rules did anything but help the turnout.
-The 300 was added by the rules committee in fear of lowering the turnout.
In response to this I would suggest that they revert to 2011 rules, this will address the cost issue. A 2012 is far from vintage, they are still being sold in dealers. Yes the older machines are competitive and vintage riders would be welcomed into the class but this only fosters more participation as there are more vintage riders than 300 riders, we had two join us throughout the year. We know that opening up the rules did not foster participation, as proof they can ask every rider who participated in 2012. 100% of the 250 riders are running stock 250cc engines. As a result of this agreement we had a significant increase in grid size. Yes at some point the 300 may have to be accommodated and maybe limiting the 300 in some way would be in favor but until then why not let a successful class continue to grow? Take the year to determine how the 250 and the 300 will be able to be paired in 2014. Maybe Kawasaki will sell a kit and support the racing effort next year. Maybe a conversation with Kawasaki will result in a solution to A limit the 300 or B increase the 250's performance to an equal level as well as a chance to bring the Honda up to par. This will also give the riders whom have planned to participate in 2013 a chance at a competitive 2013 season as well as chance to save and plan for 2014.
Please take into account that much of the support is based upon CCS's promise to re visit the rules for 2013 given participation. Here we are getting ready for 2013 and we have increased the grid sizes significantly. I can assure you that un limiting the rules and adding a motorcycle with larger displacement was not in the minds of riders whom are requesting this consideration.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on December 16, 2012, 09:13:00 AM
Correction: 1100 cc Ducs and oh, don't forget, 1100 Bimotas and Peirobons that are $40k to $60k and Supersport legal.... Don't try to put the same wheels that come on the Bimota on your Ducati though, you would be cheating.
Lightweight used to be an entry level class... what a joke now!
You can have a paddock full of 600s for the entry price of Lightweight!
Technically, Pierbon isn't legal for Superbike or Supersport. It's not a production machine. Bimota is a different story. However I have ridden them and while they are good, the advantage is mostly psychological. All types of bikes are winning in Lightweight, Bimota is far from dominant.
I agree with you that the bar is pretty high in LW, but the rules are the same for everyone.....what can you do?
Entry level is the ninja 250 or the like. Or how about the moriwaki or a 125 GP. Soon there will be ample moto3 machines as they become obsolete on the world level. Affordable? Depends on your price of affordable. You can have a FZR 600 for $1500 and be ready to race but that is allowed in Thunderbike mainly.
Is the current year SV competitive? You say no, but it is based upon 1999 technology so how much further did you expect it to come?
Time moves on, and so does the class'. A new bike comes out and it is put into the closest class. I don't believe a 1000 anything should be lightweight. Total displacement limits should be set. An 1125 Buell is not the same as the 1123 Ducati. The 650 SV, Ducati 800 and 900 seem to me as true lightweight. Ultralight capped at say 550?
Quote from: Gino230 on December 18, 2012, 01:20:51 AM
Technically, Pierbon isn't legal for Superbike or Supersport. It's not a production machine. Bimota is a different story. However I have ridden them and while they are good, the advantage is mostly psychological. All types of bikes are winning in Lightweight, Bimota is far from dominant.
I agree with you that the bar is pretty high in LW, but the rules are the same for everyone.....what can you do?
I don't want to anger people but the reason the Bimota is not dominant is the riders on them and they are scarce as hens teeth anywhere but Florida. With the right rider, that bike is all but untouchable. And BTW, Daytona is nothing but a HP contest in LW so I don't count any results from that arena.
I was given several reasons as to why the rules proposal was not accepted and as to why the 300 was added. They are listed below.
-Cost of enforcement of spec rules.
-CCS Does not promote vintage racing.
-CCS does not cater to running economy classes.
As soon as the smoke, that they blew up your ass, clears consider this;
If there is such an absorbanant cost in teching a bike why don't they can the Super sport classes as well ?
If CCS doesn't promote vintage bike then they should stop bumping all the out of production and underdeveloped bikes back wards into lightweight classes.
If CCS doesn't cater to economy classes what should I make of the following quote; "Ultralight ThunderBike is basically a SuperSport 250s class for bikes such as the Ninja and Honda 250, which aren't as competitive in other classes." said Kevin Elliott, owner of the Championship Cup Series. "Single & Twin cylinder liquid-cooled engines up to 250cc as well as Twin Cylinder air-cooled 350cc machines qualify for this class. Although some restrictions apply, bikes must be completely stock OEM for the most part and run street tires."
It also appears these bikes won't be competitive in the class that was developed for the either !