Just curious if anyone is having any problems with the v front? What do the fast guys use for a front tire?
Pirelli or Dunlop.... I run the V front and have never had any issues. I'm sure that's what most of the fast guys on Michelins use. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them
What kinda problems?
Quote from: Paul Scalph #18 on May 05, 2011, 06:21:58 PM
Just curious if anyone is having any problems with the v front? What do the fast guys use for a front tire?
No problems with the V front, the new one is even better.
I am not a fast guy but I have won a couple lightweight races on my Ultralight class bike. No problems with the tire in either ultra hot weather or temps down to the 50 degree range. it runs in much quicker than the A or B with their more rounded profile and the V has loads on side grip under trail braking. Not much experience in comparing it to the Dunlop but it is a lot easier to mount the Michelin compared to the Dunlop using the No-Mar changer.
Mark
"Not a fast guy", whatever Mark!
The Power One Michelin "V" front is awesome!!! No problems with it to date. As Mark stated above, the trail braking grip at full lean is unbelievable.
Al I am only being honest with myself with that statement. that statement is based on the observation of the time sheets where most have a faster lap time than I do but somehow I tend to keep up. Me thinks it's that awesome prepered Ducati that the MotoCorse team put together. It is a runner for a very mild build.
The Michelins have been a very good tire with more feedback than what I expected. Yes the Bridgeston that I first used slid sooner and maybe told you sooner that I was close to the limit. The Michelin des give good feedback but it does have more grip.
More than anything for my racing program the Contingency works well for my budget.
Not fast but I have had some issues with pushing the V Front a lot more this year. I was told the right HOT (off the track) PSI to run is 29.5. Now that's significantly lower than what I have been running. I gave it a try at a track day this past w/e and had no issues but I also wasnt pushing as hard. I'll know more after this w/e.
It's a little ridiculous, the lack of solid information with Michelin tires though.
29.5 hot sounds really low.
my start point point w/ the V has been 31 cold.
mr. melka, what say YOU?
I ran with the cold pressures all last year. Spoke to David Grey, whos the Michelin guy, and he said, nope you run hot pressures. Really effing confusing. But he said 29.5 hot off the track. I have had some grip issues lately...and I suppose it could be a host of different reasons, but when id switch to the 1246 slick I couldnt push the front at all. So the V front was getting in my head a little...im going to give the 29.5 a shot.
Quote from: drew231506 on May 09, 2011, 09:50:20 PM
I ran with the cold pressures all last year. Spoke to David Grey, whos the Michelin guy, and he said, nope you run hot pressures. Really effing confusing. But he said 29.5 hot off the track. I have had some grip issues lately...and I suppose it could be a host of different reasons, but when id switch to the 1246 slick I couldnt push the front at all. So the V front was getting in my head a little...im going to give the 29.5 a shot.
Feel free to give it a shot, it may end up working great. But the guys who have been running and using this product at the front of the pack for a long time have stuck with some pretty standard pressures, if anything we tend to go a little higher on pressures in certain situations. Dropping the front psi by 6-7 lbs is significant, and he is the only one doing it. One thing to remember is trackday fast and race fast are two different things.
Quote from: benprobst on May 10, 2011, 08:38:23 AM
Feel free to give it a shot, it may end up working great. But the guys who have been running and using this product at the front of the pack for a long time have stuck with some pretty standard pressures, if anything we tend to go a little higher on pressures in certain situations. Dropping the front psi by 6-7 lbs is significant, and he is the only one doing it. One thing to remember is trackday fast and race fast are two different things.
Care to expand on your post? What are "standard pressures"? Are you talking about the cold pressures 31-22? "he is the only one doing it.." WHO represents Michelin that can give some guidelines if not him? I was under the impression he is heading up the distribution of all that is Michelin.
I agree that dropping the pressure 6-7 pounds is hugely significant.
"One thing to remember is trackday fast and race fast are two different things." Ummmmmm?
Where is David getting his numbers then? His own research? (just asking, not being a smartass)
Drew, My Michelin guy recommends 30/22 cold pressure regardless of the ambient temp. I have done some but not much testing with the Michelin, I guess more observation than research and I have found a noticeable diffirence in just 1 psi. Now consider that I am on a Ducati 800(maybe the same weight wise as what you are running or even heavier) and with that said will stress the tire in a different way. I believe I carry similar corner speed as the fastest guys out there. My Ducati weighs in at 360# with two gallons of fuel on the ASRA scales. I just dont have the top speeds as the bigger bikes have but then the bigger bikes must slow for the same corners that I am railing on the gas. I also have seen a rise of 4-5 psi depending on track temps but mostly 4 psi is the standard. now I am not that precise with the psi check only because I am not checking the psi on hot pit.
I also have some other tricks gleaned from Mr Melka that I will use to learn more.
a wise man was once asked how much more grip a slick tire has. He answered, "7% more because that is the amount of rubber missing producing the siping on a DOT."
What im saying is, buying into a distribution post doesnt make him the end all be all. I encourage people trying new things, but we have done it before and it didnt work, not sure why its working now aside from the fact that its trackday guys who are trying it. Call guys who have done it and lived it for the past 25 years like Walt Schaeffer and Tommy Mason. We run as high as 34 cold in the front tire. But im big, my bike is fast, I ride pretty quickly, and my style puts a lot of weight on the front tire. Standard front pressures are 30-31 cold, looking for around +3-5 on the warmers and plus 4-6 off the track. Rear pressures vary as well, we have had luck on hard tires running down to 19 psi cold. But the standard A and B tend to get the surface a little hot that low so we stick around 20-22.
29.5 HOT OFF THE TRACK.......find someone else to go to for information! I run my front 34.5 to 35 Hot off the track and have had NO Issue's at all. As Mark stated above, 30 / 22 cold is a good starting point and every one pound change is HUGE with the Michelins. The one thing most people don't take into consideration is the pressures will constantly fluctuate throughout the day and thus you need to check them every couple hours. My last race weekend was the Jennings CCS event and my tire pressures fluctuated 3lbs from morning to afternoon. Left unchecked, I would have had problems during the afternoon races with the tires.
What I do is set them at 30 / 22 cold first thing in the morning. Put the warmers on and then go out and run a good hard session. Then the very first thing I do after getting the bike on the stands is check the Hot off the track pressures and write them down. That hot pressure is the pressure I'll use the rest of the day.
Greg Melka, who does some testing for Michelin, recommends using a spare tire, on a rim of course, to keep track of pressure changes. He sets it at the cold temp and then puts it out in the sun. He then periodically checks it throughout the day and notes any fluctuation.
Besides, a pushing issue is usually caused by the rear suspension. Did you guys account for the taller front tire in doing your suspension adjustments?
Quote from: majicMARKer on May 08, 2011, 03:53:58 PM
Al I am only being honest with myself with that statement. that statement is based on the observation of the time sheets where most have a faster lap time than I do but somehow I tend to keep up. Me thinks it's that awesome prepered Ducati that the MotoCorse team put together. It is a runner for a very mild build.
The Michelins have been a very good tire with more feedback than what I expected. Yes the Bridgeston that I first used slid sooner and maybe told you sooner that I was close to the limit. The Michelin des give good feedback but it does have more grip.
More than anything for my racing program the Contingency works well for my budget.
Mark, I was giving you a compliment buddy! Lap Times mean absolutely nothing my friend, its where you finish and you usually finish somewhere around the front. Since I always seem to find myself behind you, you are one of the fast guys to me:)
Thank you Al. I can only share my observations as well.
All good information, thanks.
Al, ya got the "control" tire thing down EXCEPT don't leave it out in the sun, 8) hide it in the shade under the trailer (in the trailer won't work if you run AC). It isn't as important to find out how much PSI goes up on days where it is already 80F at 9am, or your getting new tires as fast as you can run to the vendor, but if your running the bike in the morning practice and it is say 55F, then you are using these same tires later in the day and it gets to friggin 90F in the shade, you WILL see a 2-3psi increase in your tire pressure.. (warmer air expands)..well, that is an issue if your setting your rear at 22 cold, and after lunch you plug your warmer back in and it is now 25 PSI COLD.. it's gonna be 28PSI when you grid, and mid race the REAR will be like 32-33.. that WILL have you spinning a bunch.
As far as the 29.5psi HOT off the track, im not going to contradict another Michelin vendors ideas, or say that is "wrong". Dave G. is a stand up guy and im sure is trying to do right by his guys. I will simply say that nobody im aware of, including the French engineers that came over when testing was done, nor any other trackside Michelin vendor from the east coast to the west coast that i have had conversations with (T.MAson, W.Sheafer,F.Kinsey), recomends 29.5hot for a front A/B/V PSI.
As Ben P. and others may have mentioned, if ANYTHING, many of the faster riders including Rob Jensen were going as high as 34PSI COLD on the V front, looking to firm up the softer carcas (the V has 4 plys, the A/B have 5 plys..they are MUCH firmer).
I will say i tried running the front with about 25psi cold once... I though i was going to die.. I came in .. told my suspension guy at the time "don't ever do that to me again".. LOL
ALthough the V is a softer carcas with 4plys, it has its pros/cons. The V although more "flexy" having the 4 plys, has very good side grip. I found this tire AMAZING on Lt Wt bikes. And as Mark mentioned, it works from 50f to pretty darn hot outside, it warms up because it flexes some. The A/B front some like better, for the trail braking stability of the 5 plys. The faster riders that i talk with simply will take the increased side grip over the braking stability.. There IS a NEW V out, or so i hear, but nobody has actually been able to tell (that I know of) that it is actually here, and not just a newer production date but the same old V..
Drew, not sure what your lap times are or where ya finish in the Expert class.. if your pushing the V front, i would be more inclined to say you have a set up issue, wrong pressures, perhaps charging the corner too hard, using takeoffs with a gabillion laps?? Not sure.. It is a pretty darn good tire, and i know Brian Stokes and Matt Lynn were at Jennings a few years back running some SMOKIN lap times. It is a MUCH improved front over our old "C" front (may I pass on to the afterlife without having to use that tire ever again. .. lol)
Ahhhhh, the shade! I remember you gave us that advise last year on the Jennings Board. Thanks Greg!
Thanks Melka. I'm sure it is a setup issue, it was just getting in my head so I wanted to double check the pressures I was running. That's when I got the info on the 29.5psi. My lap times would be from last year and I'm sure I'm wayyyy faster this year sooo.... ;-) Havent finished an expert race yet...ill let you know after this weekend. 29s last year at nj, 34-35 vir, 17s summit...
I was just looking for some feedback with that 29.5 number. David is a good guy, that number is just such a huge difference than what I ran last year.
Quote from: drew231506 on May 11, 2011, 12:41:09 PM
Thanks Melka. I'm sure it is a setup issue, it was just getting in my head so I wanted to double check the pressures I was running. That's when I got the info on the 29.5psi. My lap times would be from last year and I'm sure I'm wayyyy faster this year sooo.... ;-) Havent finished an expert race yet...ill let you know after this weekend. 29s last year at nj, 34-35 vir, 17s summit...
I was just looking for some feedback with that 29.5 number. David is a good guy, that number is just such a huge difference than what I ran last year.
try different stuff, just keep good notes and keep everything else consistant (don't make other big changes AND use a low front tire pis). Get back to us on it.. :)
I'm with Melka and Probst on this one... Weather you consider me a fast guy or not is in the eye of the beholder - But I love my Michelins. I have zero issues with the "V" front. Like Probst said - I pretty much run the standard cold pressures (21front/31rear). We do check Hot pressures from time to time - But that is only if we are trying to change a characteristic of the tire or the setup.Our preferred method is: Set cold pressures - Heat with warmers for about 45min-1hr - Cut laps on track at a "Race Pace" - Run "Cool Down Lap" as hard as you can - Immediately after entering pit road check carcass temperature with a pyromoter. Adjust accordingly
Now our method maynot work for everyone - But this is how we do it when we are looking for answers.. Otherwise - We run standard above mentioned pressures and adjust accordingly..
Tire pressures are specific to each individual's personal preference. But I can say that you shouldn't have to vary far from the standard 21/31 to achieve what you are looking for...
Trying to think - But I don't believe I have ever adjusted tires at .5psi increments.
Hope this helps
Scotty, your fast without doubt (and faster n' me these days for sure).. think ya meant 21rear/31front though. :thumb:
totally agree on the 1/2 psi thing, no way can most of us know the diff, or even count on the gauge to be that accurate. Keep kickin ass!
What do you guys suggest for getting a bit more tire life out of a rear Power One B? I'm using a V front, B 160 rear on my SV650 and my only complaint is it seems to wear out quickly. I use 30f/22r cold. It might just be that my pace is picking up and my fat ass is using the tire more (finally broke into the 19s at Roebling). I'm 205 w/o gear. Also, I noticed the 160 is made in Spain and the 180s are made in France???
I just switched to a 5.5 rim onmy SBK so I'll be going to the 180 next weekend.
Thats pretty good on a lightweight bike. I didn't quite get to the 19's on my Ducati 800 which uses the 180 rear tire. I seem to think that the Michelin rear goes pretty good even when it looks like it is worn out. I have run the A rear tire down to the absolute limit and the traction remained good allowing me to turn lap times within a second of my best times at a articular track. I also do believe that the 160 tire being used on the SV is a different animal where I have heard of many SV riders complain about it. Sadly, I don't know the details.
Mark
Quote from: majicMARKer on May 22, 2011, 02:29:23 PM
I also do believe that the 160 tire being used on the SV is a different animal where I have heard of many SV riders complain about it. Sadly, I don't know the details.
Mark
That's what I thought when I saw it was made in Spain. Well, I'll have the 180 on the SBK and I'll continue with the 160 on the Supersport..
Al seems to do real well on the 160 turning some good times on his SS. He kept up with me and passed me a couple times.
I switched to the 180 mid-weekend at the Jennings CCS round and liked it a whole lot better. The 160 is just ok, but the 180 is a different animal for sure. I just ran the 180 again this past weekend at Jennings for the WERA event. The temp was 100 in the shade on Sunday and the rear stuck like glue all day with a cold temp of 20psi, 25 Hot off the track. In practice at 22psi, the rear was sliding a bit. The front was the one giving me a little trouble. I've never had any trouble with the front "V" tire. Not a single slip until this past weekend. I had about a Half lap lead in the SOLO 20 Lap race when on lap 17 the front tucked on me between turns 5 & 6. Luckily I was able to save it on my knee, but damn, that surprised me. Then during one of the sprint races it tucked again on me in turn 8. The bars completely turned to the stop but somehow I lucked out again and pushed it back up. I was running it 30psi cold, 35psi hot. Weird, I've always loved the "V" front. But then again, we are talking about Jennings and 100 temps. I love the track, but man, it really needs some new pavement.
Thanks for the feedback. Weird about the V front. The temps and the track I'm sure, or maybe just a bad tire...
Quote from: PlayHard on May 23, 2011, 01:29:50 PM
I switched to the 180 mid-weekend at the Jennings CCS round and liked it a whole lot better. The 160 is just ok, but the 180 is a different animal for sure. I just ran the 180 again this past weekend at Jennings for the WERA event. The temp was 100 in the shade on Sunday and the rear stuck like glue all day with a cold temp of 20psi, 25 Hot off the track. In practice at 22psi, the rear was sliding a bit. The front was the one giving me a little trouble. I've never had any trouble with the front "V" tire. Not a single slip until this past weekend. I had about a Half lap lead in the SOLO 20 Lap race when on lap 17 the front tucked on me between turns 5 & 6. Luckily I was able to save it on my knee, but damn, that surprised me. Then during one of the sprint races it tucked again on me in turn 8. The bars completely turned to the stop but somehow I lucked out again and pushed it back up. I was running it 30psi cold, 35psi hot. Weird, I've always loved the "V" front. But then again, we are talking about Jennings and 100 temps. I love the track, but man, it really needs some new pavement.
What temperature was the front tire at coming off the track and how much time did it have on it?
The tire was Brand New for the Solo 20, zero time on it. Scrubbed it in as good as I could during the sighting lap. Incident occurred on the 17th. lap. Funny thing is, I had throttled back because of the lead I had so I wasn't even pushing it hard. The 2nd time the tire had about 40 laps on it. Not sure about the temperature. I don't have an instrument for checking that, just tire pressures. The track itself was Super Hot, the ambient temperature in the shade was 100. I'm sure the tracks surface temperature was roasting hot. Jennings is not known for good grip when its hot so I'm not putting that much blame on the tire itself.
I wasn't sure what adjustments to make with tire pressure on the front. I know that the back works better when its hot if you lower the pressure, which I did, and had no problems with the rear at all.
The guy next to me was running Dunlops and had one rear come apart on him. Luckily he didn't crash.
Were those Dunlops a Daytona tire:) I would like to hear more on what to do in just that situation of a hot track. I expect PBIR this memorial weekend to be the same. I may have to invest in one of those portable A/C units.
Quote from: PlayHard on May 23, 2011, 01:29:50 PM
I switched to the 180 mid-weekend at the Jennings CCS round and liked it a whole lot better. The 160 is just ok, but the 180 is a different animal for sure. I just ran the 180 again this past weekend at Jennings for the WERA event. The temp was 100 in the shade on Sunday and the rear stuck like glue all day with a cold temp of 20psi, 25 Hot off the track. In practice at 22psi, the rear was sliding a bit. The front was the one giving me a little trouble. I've never had any trouble with the front "V" tire. Not a single slip until this past weekend. I had about a Half lap lead in the SOLO 20 Lap race when on lap 17 the front tucked on me between turns 5 & 6. Luckily I was able to save it on my knee, but damn, that surprised me. Then during one of the sprint races it tucked again on me in turn 8. The bars completely turned to the stop but somehow I lucked out again and pushed it back up. I was running it 30psi cold, 35psi hot. Weird, I've always loved the "V" front. But then again, we are talking about Jennings and 100 temps. I love the track, but man, it really needs some new pavement.
I just mounted the 180 tire and according to my math the diameter is 8mm more than the 160. I plan on dropping the ride height by 4mm. When you switched from a 160 to a 180 did you make a similar change?
Quote from: PlayHard on May 23, 2011, 06:36:04 PM
The tire was Brand New for the Solo 20, zero time on it. Scrubbed it in as good as I could during the sighting lap. Incident occurred on the 17th. lap. Funny thing is, I had throttled back because of the lead I had so I wasn't even pushing it hard. The 2nd time the tire had about 40 laps on it. Not sure about the temperature. I don't have an instrument for checking that, just tire pressures. The track itself was Super Hot, the ambient temperature in the shade was 100. I'm sure the tracks surface temperature was roasting hot. Jennings is not known for good grip when its hot so I'm not putting that much blame on the tire itself.
I wasn't sure what adjustments to make with tire pressure on the front. I know that the back works better when its hot if you lower the pressure, which I did, and had no problems with the rear at all.
The guy next to me was running Dunlops and had one rear come apart on him. Luckily he didn't crash.
You put a 180 on the back and didnt change the chassis? No wonder you were having front tire problems, you just dropped the front end 5mm.
Just used the 180 (power one B) at Roebling for the 1st time and loved it. I dropped the ride height by 4mm and it still felt a bit tall in the back. rip was awesome and tire wear was way better than the 160