So if you had a 744cc bored out SV 650, it would run in the following classes?
Any exceptions or mods that wouldn't be allowed in these classes? It's winter, so bench racing / dreaming.
Super Twins
Lightweight Grand Prix
Thunderbike
GT Lights
A stock SV could run in all those as well and:
Lightweight Super Sport (with DOT tires)
Ultralight Superbike
How's my interpretation of the rulebook?
You don't have to be stock to run Ultralight or SS. Modifications cn be done-no ovebore for ultralight and no high compression pistons for SS.
There is also LW SB and LW F40 if you are of age.
Quote from: gkotlin on December 31, 2010, 11:54:14 PM
So if you had a 744cc bored out SV 650, it would run in the following classes?
Any exceptions or mods that wouldn't be allowed in these classes? It's winter, so bench racing / dreaming.
I don't think you could do this just with an overbore, you would need a stroker motor to reach 744cc. Would the cases even stand up to this without substatial gusseting or other modifications? It would be an interesting build though....
George
It was more the logic then the feasibility of the build. I just wanted to be sure if I increased displacement past 650cc or 700cc, I wouldn't be restricted to one class.
QuoteI wouldn't be restricted to one class
Not a chance. You will still be 300-500 cc less than everything else in LW
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on January 01, 2011, 03:59:20 PM
Not a chance. You will still be 300-500 cc less than everything else in LW
I think we have done this before, but, what the heck - its a new year...
Liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder motor = much better than air cooled 2 valve motor. It isn't just displacement, it is about the potential to be thermally efficient. There is no reason that a well built SV superbike, with sufficient investment (money and development) can not be more potent than the other built LW superbikes.
Realy, I don't think your problem is cubic inches, it is cubic dollars. Feel free to spend more if you want to keep up.
George
There are a few 744 SV's outthere and yes they can last. Extra cooling is needed.
If it were all about the displacement then the SV650 should be in middleweight. And you think the FZR400 and the SV650 is an even match?
Quote from: George_Linhart on January 01, 2011, 04:31:19 PM
Liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder motor = much better than air cooled 2 valve motor. It isn't just displacement, it is about the potential to be thermally efficient. There is no reason that a well built SV superbike, with sufficient investment (money and development) can not be more potent than the other built LW superbikes.
George
I am not going to argue with you. I only have two things to say.
1) LOL
2) I can tell you are from the MidWest
So, say whatever you want. I am telling you in advance, I will not respond.
Uh oh. What have I started. haha
Everything I've heard is that cooling is sufficient in the SV with the overbore.
What would winter be without some bench racing.
If you go 3mm over (700CC) you lose a lot of the clamping area so your head gasket becomes marginal to begin with and if you don't run a bigger radiator then you run a serious risk of head gasket failure.
Quote from: HAWK on January 02, 2011, 12:06:49 AM
If you go 3mm over (700CC) you lose a lot of the clamping area so your head gasket becomes marginal to begin with and if you don't run a bigger radiator then you run a serious risk of head gasket failure.
There's a set of BILLET SV cylinders for sale on the WERA Forum that takes care of the thin cyl walls/ clamping issues with the 3mm kits but, I think it puts you out of SBK. Then again, this is CCS, the things are probably supersport legal...
Do yourself a favor and just race a 600. It's cheaper than building/racing a ltwt bike with CCS. OR....
Do yourself a huge favor and just race WERA with your SV. You won't have to deal with 100+HP air cooled 1000s
Quote from: George_Linhart on January 01, 2011, 04:31:19 PM
I think we have done this before, but, what the heck - its a new year...
Liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder motor = much better than air cooled 2 valve motor. It isn't just displacement, it is about the potential to be thermally efficient. There is no reason that a well built SV superbike, with sufficient investment (money and development) can not be more potent than the other built LW superbikes.
Realy, I don't think your problem is cubic inches, it is cubic dollars. Feel free to spend more if you want to keep up.
George
What the heck, I've said this before but it's a New Year....
Yep, and that's the LTWT class that has evolved with CCS. LTWT should be the place for the budget racer to get his feet wet without spending a ton of cash. With CCS, that no longer exists. Oh wait, yes it does, the new Ninja 250 Class. Give me a break....
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 03, 2011, 12:26:55 PM
Do yourself a favor and just race a 600. It's cheaper than building/racing a ltwt bike with CCS. OR....
Do yourself a huge favor and just race WERA with your SV. You won't have to deal with 100+HP air cooled 1000s
Amen Brother...... Nail on the head.
I was going to sell my 2008 Rockwall Honda (with three motors) and get a LTWT bike. Found out I would still have to cough up some dough to get an SV that's competitive with the 1000's. That's FN crazy.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 03, 2011, 12:33:24 PM
LTWT should be the place for the budget racer to get his feet wet without spending a ton of cash.
Why?
Seriously, nobody said racing would be cheep. If you want an budget oriented class get an organization to create a class with rules structured around spending rather than engine displacement or some other arbitrary bike configuration.
The reality is that if you want to be competitive in the LWSB oriented clases, you really need to build a superbike. The reason I enjoy LW is that I really appreciate the process and challenge of putting the peices together effectively I believe I can use the advantages of a superbike to anywhere near its potential. I don't understand why I should be restructed from building a superbke just becasue you want to be competitive in multiple superbike oriented classes when you don't want to spend hte time, effort and money to build one.
I certainly could race much more cheeply and potentially be competitive in more classes with a SS legal MW bike. However, I don't want to race a MWSS bike. Likewise, I just don't want to adhear to SS rules because I really don't like the limitations.
George
In today's economy, I would think a class for every potential racer would be beneficial to CCS. The last time I checked, race entries cost the same for all racers. The "cheap" guy on an SV or a clapped out FZR400/Honda Hawk/EX500 who enters 4 races pays the same fees as a guy who enters 4 races with his 35 thousand dollar spaghetti burner.
The way the rules are now, CCS is turning away potential racers (customers). You can race your big 1000s in Thunderbike, LWGP, and GT lights but I don't think they belong in lightweight SS or ltwt SBK. Like I said in another post, they should have a sportsman class for the mentioned Hawks, Exs, and FZR400s
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 03, 2011, 03:17:45 PM
In today's economy, I would think a class for every potential racer would be beneficial to CCS. The last time I checked, race entries cost the same for all racers. The "cheap" guy on an SV or a clapped out FZR400/Honda Hawk/EX500 who enters 4 races pays the same fees as a guy who enters 4 races with his 35 thousand dollar spaghetti burner.
The way the rules are now, CCS is turning away potential racers (customers). You can race your big 1000s in Thunderbike, LWGP, and GT lights but I don't think they belong in lightweight SS or ltwt SBK. Like I said in another post, they should have a sportsman class for the mentioned Hawks, Exs, and FZR400s
Wasting your time arguing with a Ducatista. Go to the nearest wall and beat your head against it. You will get more satisfaction once you knock yourself unconscious and get in a good nap.
Quote from: Spcassell on January 03, 2011, 03:42:25 PM
Wasting your time arguing with a Ducatista. Go to the nearest wall and beat your head against it. You will get more satisfaction once you knock yourself unconscious and get in a good nap.
That's ok. I have 60 days to burn before the WERA opener at VIR...
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 03, 2011, 03:17:45 PM
In today's economy, I would think a class for every potential racer would be beneficial to CCS. The last time I checked, race entries cost the same for all racers. The "cheap" guy on an SV or a clapped out FZR400/Honda Hawk/EX500 who enters 4 races pays the same fees as a guy who enters 4 races with his 35 thousand dollar spaghetti burner.
The way the rules are now, CCS is turning away potential racers (customers). You can race your big 1000s in Thunderbike, LWGP, and GT lights but I don't think they belong in lightweight SS or ltwt SBK. Like I said in another post, they should have a sportsman class for the mentioned Hawks, Exs, and FZR400s
Ah - so change the rules and legislate fairness" around the bikes you own. I get it now...
Unfortunately, not many Hawks/FZR400's showed up in ULSB before they let in the SV's and I don't expect that really would change so I don't expect that grids woudl get any bigger from the change you suggest. Are the SVs staying away because they are not wining, or because they are cheep and don't want to spend ANY money? All you would be doing is providing one more class for the stockish SVs to compete in by excluding the other LW legal bikes - how is that any more fair than the status quo and how is that good for CCS (as you are eliminating bikes and if more SVs don't show up you are not adding anything) Couldn't you acheive almost the same thing by allowing for either LWSS or ULSB to be a double sprint every weekend by addiing it as an additional wave to another class race if all that you are tryng to do is give the SV guys who don't want to build Superbikes an extra race opportunity. At least this this way you may get some extra entries without taking one away from the other LW bikes. You just need to find a spot on the schedule where you can add another wave. Maybe make it another wave after Thunderbike or maybe Supertiwns (only isshe here is you may canibalize some entries from one of those clases).
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the changes you suggest to what has been a stable set of rules soley to benefit yourself vs. another it is a net zero gain. If the SVs aren't going to show up for 2 races will they show up for 3? If we are creating a new and interesting class and have to ditch an existing class to fit it on the grid, so be it, but, your entire concept here just seems flawed to me - just like the guys with 6-7 year old 600's that want to bump down to LW just because they are not competive in MW anymore.
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on January 03, 2011, 05:34:17 PM
just like the guys with 6-7 year old 600's that want to bump down to LW just because they are not competive in MW anymore.
George
George, there are tracks where your bike has an advantage over my SV and there are tracks where my Sv has an advantage over you. I think you know that I don't have an issue with your bike in LW but I do have a big issue with some of the bike that are petitioning or even being let into the class. Your quote above shows that whether you realize it or not you see the writing on the wall and when some of these bikes get in not even your beast will be safe.
I'm enjoying this thread but feeling more and more outclassed since I run a worn down stock SV (with a gsxr front end) against these SB SV and 100+ HP 330# DS Ducatis. But then I'm slower than most of the guys so my slow bike is a good excuse for not winning. As long as I've got competition in the LW ex. midpack and occasionally podium then I'm happy...I think that I'm going to go back to the stock sv front so that I can run lwss.
Quote from: HAWK on January 03, 2011, 06:20:20 PM
Your quote above shows that whether you realize it or not you see the writing on the wall and when some of these bikes get in not even your beast will be safe.
Hawk, I have a lot of fun running against the really well developed Superbike SVs and the built Buells. You have built and built a really cool bike that has its inherent strengths and at the right track it is very tough to chase down - I respect that. I can't even put into words how much I envy what Ed has built, it is part of my inspiration.
What I like are STABLE rules. I don't like advocating changing rules to benefit one group over the others. Just like I didn't like opening ULWSB to the SV's I dont want LW To become a dumping ground for outdated MW class machines. However, even more I don't like the concept of changing rules to elimate currently legal equipment only because some people want to win a Superbike race that are not willing to put in the effort to build a Superbike. As you have found, it is more than just throwing parts at it, it takes time, thought and testing to get the correct combintion of parts to handle and react the way you want to ride the bike.
I could have built one hell of a SV for what I have into my Ducati. Heck, I was really tempted to buy Kevin's bike when it went for sale (that thing could pull me off the line and right off the corners). I just don't want an SV.
George
Being cheap has nothing to do with it, It's about offering classes for what racers can afford. My arguement is the rules package for the lower HP lightweight bikes should be geared towards affordability. Why? because traditionally these bikes don't go thru 2 sets of tires a weekend and the lightweight class should offer a competitive grid for all budgets. You can spend as much money on your spaghetti burner as you want, I'm just saying u should race it in LWGP and Thunderbike. I'd even be happy with the Bimota being indexed out of LWSS.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 04, 2011, 12:47:06 AM
Being cheap has nothing to do with it, It's about offering classes for what racers can afford. My arguement is the rules package for the lower HP lightweight bikes should be geared towards affordability. Why? because traditionally these bikes don't go thru 2 sets of tires a weekend and the lightweight class should offer a competitive grid for all budgets. You can spend as much money on your spaghetti burner as you want, I'm just saying u should race it in LWGP and Thunderbike. I'd even be happy with the Bimota being indexed out of LWSS.
The class you are referencing failed because nobody showed up in the days of ULWSB before SVs were allowed into the class. The reality of the broader market is diffferent than you believe individually and if it was different then the old ULWSB rules would likely have been retained..
In terms of increasing grids, you are not going to increase grid sizes by eliumiating currently legal bikes from specific classes. You will only reduce the grids in those races in order to make your SS bike more competitive in a SB class. Think beyond your narrow interst and into the bigger picture. The reality is that you can not take a SS legal SV and be competitive beyond ULW SB and possibly LW SS. If you are not intersted in riding a bike that is only potentially competitive in 2 classes, you can either buy a diferent bike that is comptitive in more than 2 classes or you could build a real superbike SV and be competitive in 4 classes (LWSB, GT Lights, LWGP and Thunderbike). I guess you do have one other alternative - quit CCS and race WERA (problem solved).
In terms of the Bimota in LWSS, I would suggest that your argument should not be to change the rules to elimiate the entire configuration (and get rid of Ducati, Buell and Bimota which really shrinks the grids considerably), but ratheryou should try to argue that the Bimota is only available in relatively limited numbers at a very high cost. You nay be able to get some traction with Kevin if what you are arguing is that these are not within the spirit of commonly available produciton bikes. Just like NCR got pushed to LWGP because it is not a "production" bike that can be commonly titled and licensed for the street.
Personally I had no issues gridding up with the NCRs and don't see a problem with the Bimota, but then again I am not gridding up in any SS races. I justview it as a challenge to choose a LW legal platform and build a bike that could out-perform what my competitior has bought (or built).
George
It's unfortunate that the LW class has become a builder's class which means that it's often more about how deep one's pockets are than skill. i agree with Macop in that respect.
I'd like to see a cheap spec. racing class (much like WERA's sv one) where skill alone is rewarded.
I've stayed away from building bikes for economics, reliability (i prefer to ride a less competitive bike than wrench on a blown up SB) and the fact that I'm not that great a rider - a bigger motor won't make me win.
There is no question in my mind that @ the LW exp. level, you cannot be competitve on a stock motored bike. And that is a pity.... It is interesting to note that even the most skilled riders (eg Ed Key) build highly modified (v. expensive) machines.
To me there is a lot of satisfaction to winning on less than competitive equipment. If your bike is built to within an inch of it's life and you win - well that's pretty much expected...
Quote from: HAWK on January 03, 2011, 06:20:20 PM
George, there are tracks where your bike has an advantage over my SV and there are tracks where my Sv has an advantage over you. I think you know that I don't have an issue with your bike in LW but I do have a big issue with some of the bike that are petitioning or even being let into the class. Your quote above shows that whether you realize it or not you see the writing on the wall and when some of these bikes get in not even your beast will be safe.
Yep, and a 10-15 year old TZ 250 with a good rider is going to be a tough bike to beat in Thunderbike. Not only that, but you could probably pick up a 95 TZ for 5 grand...
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 04, 2011, 12:32:11 PM
Yep, and a 10-15 year old TZ 250 with a good rider is going to be a tough bike to beat in Thunderbike. Not only that, but you could probably pick up a 95 TZ for 5 grand...
Now that they are allowed in the SB classes I am seriously considering adding one to my stable. I think the ongoing maintenance costs of properly caring for a 2 stroke is going to be more $ than I can handle though.
Quote from: HAWK on January 05, 2011, 05:46:53 AM
Now that they are allowed in the SB classes I am seriously considering adding one to my stable. I think the ongoing maintenance costs of properly caring for a 2 stroke is going to be more $ than I can handle though.
On the 250's a lot of that can be mitigated by backing the tune down a bit. Especially if you start off with a fresh one. The bikes extra speed, if prperly developed, should be devastating in the right hands.
I am fairly new to racing 2010 was my first year. I race a Ducati 1000. So I guess I am biased, but here is my opinion about all of the talk about the LW class.
The Bimotas, Ducati's and the Buells definately make more horse power than the SV ,that is clear. I have only ever seen a Bimota on track in Florida and yes they are fast as hell, but I don't mind racing against them. Don't we see HP disparities in other classes? In the HW classes don't 600's compete with 750's, on a regular basis? In super twins don't 848's compete with 1098's and now 1198's. My team mate won a national amateur supertwins championship on an 848 against much faster 1098's.
To me at the end of the day it comes down to rider ability much more so that equipment. I think at the expert level there are a couple of guys that are going to win on whatever you put them on. Just because you go out and spend a bunch of money on a Bimota it doesn't mean you are going to hang with the fast guys.
In reading about the Homestead races in December, there was an SV from New Hampshire that beat all the Bimotas except the #4. And the #4 was at his home track and is reigning multiple national championship winner.
I don't mind a rule change as long as I have a place to race my bike with a decent sized grid. Maybe a weight rule like there is in ASRA Thunderbike would work?
Peter, Any new racer is a good thing these days. No one likes small grids and the more riders the better everything is. There are HP disparities in other classes but your example of a 600 racing a 750 is a rider on a 600 signing up for hvwt class which is for 750s. Obviously the 750 rider can not race in middleweight. I race up classes also. My SS SV650 is no match for true LWGP machines but I do enter the class. I'm not saying we should ban the air cooled v twins from all lightweight classes. I do think the air cooled 1000s/1100s are too much bike for Lightweight SS, for sure the Bimota.
Yes, all the Bimotas are in FL but they do venture up to Roebling and VIR. Very impressive machines...
MACOP1104,
I understand. Do you think if the 1000s/1100s were out of the LWSS class there would be enough bikes on the grid?
I personally think that something needs to be done to bolster the Thunderbike class. It was the class I looked forward to most, and was the most disappointed with the grids. Up at LRRS it was me and 1 other bike a 748.
Peter,
In this day of shrinking grids it would be hard to pull them out. The Ducati 1000s in LWSS aren't too bad. They do have a HP advantage but they are heavy.
I think Thunderbike, LWGP, and GT Lights are perfect for all of the air cooled twins. Build em as big as you want!
If Suzuki upped their game and made the SV a 700 or 750 from the factory the playing field would be pretty even.
Make it a sv800 and lets call it good.....hell I'd buy 1 or 2 right there to go racing hehe
BwaHAWHawhahahahha. Haven't been on the board in probably 6 months and it's SSDY. Back to the original question, Greg, a 744 SV wouldn't run in any classes, period, cuz it would be blown up, HA-HA. Just kidding. Nice big hole to shovel money into, though. Probably cheaper to just get a Duc, ultimately. Plus, think of all chicks you'd score points with to boot.
OK, neg rep away, kids.
Incidentally, and seriously, AGAIN, it's the rider, not the bike.
I predict Kevin Van Engen is gonna tear up MW LW on his 85 hp SV this year. He was this >< close to running 13's @ BHF last fall, and he's making some improvements to the bike this winter. Hell, I figure I'm gonna drop 2 seconds just pitting for him. (14's....Ha, talk about winter dreaming...)
We'll see.
Ow. I'm gonna be up there with Rick.
Happy New Year, ya'll!!!
Kawi just redesigned the Ninja 250
Honda is bringing over an all new CBR 250R
Suzuki is still making the GS500F
Yamaha has the WR250X vs the Kawi KLX250SF vs the Honda CRF230M...
Seems like there are proper 'ultra lights' on the market or coming onto the market again in the US?
Quote from: Kurlon on January 06, 2011, 04:07:00 PM
Kawi just redesigned the Ninja 250
Honda is bringing over an all new CBR 250R
Suzuki is still making the GS500F
Yamaha has the WR250X vs the Kawi KLX250SF vs the Honda CRF230M...
Seems like there are proper 'ultra lights' on the market or coming onto the market again in the US?
Only if you want to get lapped multilpe multiple times on any of the bikes you have listed. Unless of course you plan on kicking ALL of the current ULW bikes out of ULW.
Quote from: benprobst on January 06, 2011, 04:50:05 PM
Only if you want to get lapped multilpe multiple times on any of the bikes you have listed. Unless of course you plan on kicking ALL of the current ULW bikes out of ULW.
Or you rename the classes to match what they really are and slot in a 5th class for the true Ultralights?
How many of you are going to buy that $60K 116 hp, 305lb Pierobon featured in RRW. That thing would be very competitive in MW....And since LW has become a builder's class...It's now all about money!!
I was just sitting on the
Quote from: SV88 on January 06, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
How many of you are going to buy that $60K 116 hp, 305lb Pierobon featured in RRW. That thing would be very competitive in MW....And since LW has become a builder's class...It's now all about money!!
i was just sitting on the crapper reading about it in the new issue. it's really difficult to poop with a stiffy...
Screw it. I'm selling all my current bikes. Haters get ready!!
I think you could pay have that for the Bimota and go almost as fast.....hehe
Reading about all some of the crazy expensive bikes in the lightweight classes picking on the SV elswhere in the country, I'm glad most of my racing is done at Loudon where a stock SV still has somewhat of a fighting chance in LWSS, LWSB, GTL and LWGP. For what was once one of the best bang-for-the-buck race bikes out there, the SV seems to be turning into a knife at a gun fight.
I'm all for building crazy bikes, but I agree that some of the LW classes are becoming a bit of an arms race.
Racing is already expensive enough. No need to make it outrageous. That's part of the draw for the LW classes... not as much glory as MW or HW, but you get to keep a little more money in your pocket.
Clearly my logic is wrong. I should be fixing rider weight and not worrying about HP. I do have to admit that when i got a good drive out of the corner, I didn't struggle as much on the straights. But all things being equal, if other riders got a good drive, they flat out passed me like they were on a 600.
Interesting discussion. I guess if you're passionate and serious about anything, you'll find away to to make it work. Whether that be financially or otherwise.
The fact of the matter is this. The rules are stated. You know what you're up against. Make the best of it. If you can't beat em, join em? We should all go buy Bimota's perhaps. I'm running a 10 year old bike I got in a trade deal. I'm doing ok on it. In the expert ranks, I'd be shark bait. Before the middle of this season I haven't worked to improve my riding since 2007. I only had 2 years on a bike prior. 1 year street (10 years prior) and 1 year track. I know where my budget is. I know my strengths and my weaknesses. All I can do is the best I can do with what I have or what I'm able / willing to get. If I'm having fun and battling for 3rd, that is more rewarding to me then riding by myself for 1st or 10th place.
There aren't any surprises here. Petition if you don't think things are fair, make the best of what you can, or take up pool. :)
Greg , I know where you place in the amatuer races we raced together. Freshen it up and go kick some a##.
Bruce
Quote from: gkotlin on January 14, 2011, 10:17:43 AM
Clearly my logic is wrong. I should be fixing rider weight and not worrying about HP. I do have to admit that when i got a good drive out of the corner, I didn't struggle as much on the straights. But all things being equal, if other riders got a good drive, they flat out passed me like they were on a 600.
Interesting discussion. I guess if you're passionate and serious about anything, you'll find away to to make it work. Whether that be financially or otherwise.
The fact of the matter is this. The rules are stated. You know what you're up against. Make the best of it. If you can't beat em, join em? We should all go buy Bimota's perhaps. I'm running a 10 year old bike I got in a trade deal. I'm doing ok on it. In the expert ranks, I'd be shark bait. Before the middle of this season I haven't worked to improve my riding since 2007. I only had 2 years on a bike prior. 1 year street (10 years prior) and 1 year track. I know where my budget is. I know my strengths and my weaknesses. All I can do is the best I can do with what I have or what I'm able / willing to get. If I'm having fun and battling for 3rd, that is more rewarding to me then riding by myself for 1st or 10th place.
There aren't any surprises here. Petition if you don't think things are fair, make the best of what you can, or take up pool. :)
Well said Greg,
Quote from: Farmboy on January 06, 2011, 11:27:51 PM
I was just sitting on the
i was just sitting on the crapper reading about it in the new issue. it's really difficult to poop with a stiffy...
Screw it. I'm selling all my current bikes. Haters get ready!!
You are a sick bastard.
Quote from: twilkinson3 on January 07, 2011, 09:57:33 AM
I think you could pay have that for the Bimota and go almost as fast.....hehe
You give the Bimota more credit than it deserves. One could achieve a simlar prforming bike if you were to spend a good amount of money on a DS1000. What you don't have is the Bimota frame, but Ohlins everything else will get you in the ballpark and definitely exact with the motor.
Now the Pierobon is quite a buy for $60K and would take a bit of money to have the same spec Bimota. There actually is one in Florida and yeah he can run with some of the best middleweight bikes. That Bimota certainly must cost more than the $60K at least that is what I was told and I have to believe it.
My Ducati 800 cost twice as much as many of my SV competition, nd at half the cost their bike is still faster on the straight. Consider this, faster entry speed(rider skill) can equate to faster corner speed and in turn faster exit leading to a faster top out on the straights.
Yes the lightweight class can be quite pricey but I run it because I love it.
Once again, LW has turned into the dumping ground for all those bikes that can not compete in a CC class that they are in, or for those that do not have enough entries to constitute having a class of their own and their own race. I do not have a problem racing on the track with these bikes, I just do not think that they should be racing for the same piece of wood, or points. This would not make for an extra race, just extra plaques and paperwork. With what I heard at the banquet we do not have enough racers and or races in certain areas to make a race weekend profitable without introducing Shifter Karts and Side Car races. I hate to say it, but this is in part due to running off those who would have raced and stayed with a reasonable LW Class. Budget racing was killed with the new LW rules that have been introduced in the last few years.. Yes, George. You can spend a ton of money and a lot of time tricking out an old or unusual bike and get a great deal of personal satisfaction. This, however forces everyone else to do the same thing if they want to be competitive. Those of us who choose not to build one of these hybrid monsters are bringing a knife to a gun fight and are being told to like it. What is happening is that many are changing racing series and this will make it even tougher to get grids to meet contingency requirements. You now do not get tire money. Good Job. The LW class last year had many weekends where there were not enough bikes on the grid to get contingency because many racers left racing because of the economy and because the did not feel that they would be competitive without spending a great deal of money to keep up with the larger displacement bikes allowed in LW. This years rule changes have made this situation even worse. We need to be attracting more racers, not running off the ones we have. So here is what is happening. Catering to those who want to tinker with the bigger displacement bikes and trick them out will win the races and the number of bikes in the race will go down. Again, Good Job.
QuoteThe LW class last year had many weekends where there were not enough bikes on the grid to get contingency because many racers left racing because of the economy and because the did not feel that they would be competitive without spending a great deal of money to keep up with the larger displacement bikes allowed in LW.
do you have any data to support this? In the regions I have raced in and watched over the past few 5 years I have felt the reduction in entries has been consistent across the board. I would almost argue that the LW grids have suffered the LEAST compared to MW/HW/UNL.
Quote from: tstruyk on January 17, 2011, 06:00:08 PM
do you have any data to support this? In the regions I have raced in and watched over the past few 5 years I have felt the reduction in entries has been consistent across the board. I would almost argue that the LW grids have suffered the LEAST compared to MW/HW/UNL.
You are cruising for another smite, hahaha. I would love to se some imperical evidence as well.
:ahhh:
I bet CCS has the average numbers for each class broken down by region and by year... a good place to start would be there, seeing if one class suffered moroeso than any others THEN we can look at the "why".
Just read the RRW article on the new 60k itailian whosawhatsit... thats pretty badass! but nothing you couldnt accomplish with a 60k budget and bikes already eligible for the class. take that bimota! :biggrin:
Quote from: poppop587 on January 16, 2011, 02:18:36 AM
Once again, LW has turned into the dumping ground for all those bikes that can not compete in a CC class that they are in, or for those that do not have enough entries to constitute having a class of their own and their own race. I do not have a problem racing on the track with these bikes, I just do not think that they should be racing for the same piece of wood, or points. This would not make for an extra race, just extra plaques and paperwork. With what I heard at the banquet we do not have enough racers and or races in certain areas to make a race weekend profitable without introducing Shifter Karts and Side Car races. I hate to say it, but this is in part due to running off those who would have raced and stayed with a reasonable LW Class. Budget racing was killed with the new LW rules that have been introduced in the last few years.. Yes, George. You can spend a ton of money and a lot of time tricking out an old or unusual bike and get a great deal of personal satisfaction. This, however forces everyone else to do the same thing if they want to be competitive. Those of us who choose not to build one of these hybrid monsters are bringing a knife to a gun fight and are being told to like it. What is happening is that many are changing racing series and this will make it even tougher to get grids to meet contingency requirements. You now do not get tire money. Good Job. The LW class last year had many weekends where there were not enough bikes on the grid to get contingency because many racers left racing because of the economy and because the did not feel that they would be competitive without spending a great deal of money to keep up with the larger displacement bikes allowed in LW. This years rule changes have made this situation even worse. We need to be attracting more racers, not running off the ones we have. So here is what is happening. Catering to those who want to tinker with the bigger displacement bikes and trick them out will win the races and the number of bikes in the race will go down. Again, Good Job.
Lots of valid points in your post. Unfortunately, don't expect any changes. CCS is in no postion to make a rule change that would exclude a bike from a class and cut back on revenue from less entries. They are doing the opposite by allowing GP bikes into lightweight classes. Before, the air cooled 1000cc guys have been the top dog in lightweight. Wait until a 15 year old TZ250 smokes them in Thunderbike.
Here are the facts and figures. Simply go back through this years Mid-Atlantic LW results race by race and look at the results. The overwhelming majority of the time if there was a 1000 Ducati in the race it won. There may have only been one Ducati and 10 other bikes, mostly SV's but with rare exception the Ducati won. The races that the SV won was a race that there was either not a Ducati in the race or Dustin Watson was in the race on his SV. Dustin is the class of the field by far on the SV and he had little success racing the Ducati's. If you do the stats with the number of races that were entered by the Ducati's and how many they won based on their participation level, the figures are quite different than you are led to believe. Please take a look for yourself and come to your own conclusion. All of us can be liars, but to be a damned liar you must be a statistician. Once again, I am not looking for them to have a seperate race, I am simply looking for them to be in a different class on the track at the same time not running for points in the LW class. Remember that we all spend the money to race and the only thing that we get that we can hold on too or show our friends is the plaque or the championship. Three extra plaques is all that I am asking for so that everyone has a fair chance. Can't be that expensive.
Quote from: poppop587 on January 18, 2011, 11:15:04 AM
Remember that we all spend the money to race and the only thing that we get that we can hold on too or show our friends is the plaque or the championship. Three extra plaques is all that I am asking for so that everyone has a fair chance. Can't be that expensive.
Fair to who? How is it that suddenly this 1 Ducati has ruined the LW class - it has been legal for 6+ years and I suspect that it has been out there for much of the time. The rules have been stable for quite a while, now is not the time to make bikes illegal for classes or to furtyher frament the classes. This will just reudce contingency for everyone.
Think this through - could it just be that participation itsefl dropped off compared to previous years for its own reasons? Why is is the Ducati's fault that grids are down? You are making a huge leap here in casting blame. Its the economy - the races not racing would not show up even if they were given a 1 lap head start.
George
The Bimota, the NCR, and the $60,000 thing in Road Racing World should be performance indexed out of LWSS. That's the only rule request I have. I can deal with the Ducati1000ds in lwss because it is pretty heavy.
Quote from: poppop587 on January 18, 2011, 11:15:04 AM
Here are the facts and figures. Simply go back through this years Mid-Atlantic LW results race by race and look at the results. The overwhelming majority of the time if there was a 1000 Ducati in the race it won. There may have only been one Ducati and 10 other bikes, mostly SV's but with rare exception the Ducati won. The races that the SV won was a race that there was either not a Ducati in the race or Dustin Watson was in the race on his SV. Dustin is the class of the field by far on the SV and he had little success racing the Ducati's. If you do the stats with the number of races that were entered by the Ducati's and how many they won based on their participation level, the figures are quite different than you are led to believe. Please take a look for yourself and come to your own conclusion. All of us can be liars, but to be a damned liar you must be a statistician. Once again, I am not looking for them to have a seperate race, I am simply looking for them to be in a different class on the track at the same time not running for points in the LW class. Remember that we all spend the money to race and the only thing that we get that we can hold on too or show our friends is the plaque or the championship. Three extra plaques is all that I am asking for so that everyone has a fair chance. Can't be that expensive.
By this rationale... I propose we make an "ed key" class. It seems more often than not when there is one of those on the grid it ends up winning...
If I wanted racing to balanced and easy I would spent my time at the public go kart track
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 18, 2011, 11:44:31 AM
The Bimota, the NCR, and the $60,000 thing in Road Racing World should be performance indexed out of LWSS. That's the only rule request I have. I can deal with the Ducati1000ds in lwss because it is pretty heavy.
NCR has been classified as a GP bike only by CCS so that shouldn't be an issue. I think the same would go for the Pierobon F042 as it is not a titled, road going motorcycle available to the general public though normal distribution/dealer channels - if anybody were to show up and race it in a SS/S class I think it would get protested. For the Bimota, if that is your issue I think you should petition to Kevin to dis-allow them from LWSS your argument is that these are imported in very limited numbers, are not widely available and are very expensive so they do not meet the spirit of LWSS.
George
Quote from: tstruyk on January 18, 2011, 02:22:05 PM
By this rationale... I propose we make an "ed key" class. It seems more often than not when there is one of those on the grid it ends up winning...
If I wanted racing to balanced and easy I would spent my time at the public go kart track
No, no, no. We should all get participation trophies, nobody gets podiums because we won't keep lap times and we should all be guaranteed our own racing class so we can each win a national championship. I call dibs on the "fat, bald, angry banker with a trophy wife, 2 children under 5 racing a 6 year old Ducati superbike cause it ain't fair to the SV650 cheapskates" national championship.
Think of the money we can save on transponders since we will no longer keep lap times or pay attention to who wins!
Now everything is fair. Don't we feel better?
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on January 18, 2011, 02:39:53 PM
I call dibs on the "fat, bald, angry banker with a trophy wife, 2 children under 5 racing a 6 year old Ducati superbike cause it ain't fair to the SV650 cheapskates" national championship.
this statement is worthless w/o pics. You can skip the pics of the kids and the fat bald angry banker.... the trophy wife pics will do...
Hi everyone, I have been reading this post with some interest because last year - my first racing in CCS Atlantic LWt classes - I raced a Ducati against many SV's as an amateur. my Duc is a 1995 900ss - it produces 76 hp, turns like a pig and weighs 400lbs. For me this was racing on the cheap, no expensive motor builds or clever chassis changes I just added an Ohlins shock and revalved and sprung the stock, non adjustable forks and got the motor running as sweetly as I could for a 15 year old bike with 26000 miles. Of the seven rounds I only completed four due to lack of money but had a blast doing what I could. The guys that beat me in SS were riding Buells and SV's - in SB Peter and Dustin were too fast for me - both guys are just f'in good riders - if I had more motor I may have been able to keep within half a lap of them but frankly they were going to beat me whatever we were riding. Dustin's SV was superfast. Peter was going to win races whatever he was riding - we do this for fun and a few silly trophies so stop taking yourselves too seriously and you'll have more fun. There will always be - as in any sport - someone who is bigger, stronger, faster, or richer. Coming second on an old, slow, heavy street bike that is a huge effort to ride quickly let alone fast, gives me a massive sense of satisfaction and makes me want to grid up with you guys next season - you can ride anything you want - within the rules.
Geo is not fat (he did forget short) and his wife (while attractive) does not qualify as a trophy wife because she is older (& taller than he is).
But seriously - here in the midwest, svs which have as much money as Geo has in his Duc are competitive with him and with an equivalent rider will generally win. I'm told that while his extensively modified Duc puts up some impressive numbers, it's a beast to ride compared to a SB SV.
I like the idea of a spec. class where $$ are essentially taken out of the equation. We also have classes where $$ are almost everything given that the rider remains 80% of the equation.
On a personal level, I find it interesting that I'm more competitive on my sv which is down on power compared to most other MW experts bikes compared to my 09R6 which is much closer to the average midweight - guess I need to learn to ride the R6. If I don't get work soon, the sv will be lightly raced and the R6 parked (except for the RA and Topeka rounds) this season.
Once again the point is being missed. I do not want to keep the Duc's or the Buell's off the track. I simply want them to run against each other. why is this such a burr under your saddle George. Classes are made for a reason. What other class has bikes as small as 125's and goes all the way to 1200 cc's? If someone decides to come in with a 1500cc air cooled V-Twin would that be OK? How about a 2000cc air cooled V-Twin. Where does it stop. When does it quit evolving? Yes, some ride for the pure joy of things, but you have stated that you want the contingency. Well so do some of the guys on the smaller, less powerful bikes. All I am asking for is that they be given a chance to compete against like bikes. I like and respect Peter very much and I like being on the track with him, but I feel very confident that he will tell you that when we come on to the straight that he will beat me to the finish line every time. That George is not the spirit of the sport. That sir is due to the fact that he has more horsepower and torque and there is nothing that I or anyone else can do about it. As I stated before. I love the back and forth racing in the corners and love the close racing but if we come out of the last corner even, the Duc wins unless I have built a grenade engine or lightened the bike to an insane level. Is this truly your idea of sportsmanship and fair competition? Seperate classes on the track at the same time solves all the problems except one and that is your desire to get contingency. So lets call a Spade a Spade. You want the contingency and you need all the smaller bikes to get that. If you are racing for the fun of it, why not seperate classes on the track together.
My Ducati last year had 95hp and could not even pass any ducati's in my class in a straight line!!!! I can stay there in the draft but that is it.My SV 650 has only 75hp!! And i'm getting left in the dust by other sv's on the straights.My DUC with a full tank of gas is 418lbs 20 lbs more then other duc's in my class,as you see i havent put any lightweight parts on it,maybe this year and is 408 after gt lights.My SV is 385 with a full tank.
Quote from: poppop587 on January 20, 2011, 03:24:06 AM
Once again the point is being missed. I do not want to keep the Duc's or the Buell's off the track. I simply want them to run against each other. why is this such a burr under your saddle George. Classes are made for a reason. What other class has bikes as small as 125's and goes all the way to 1200 cc's? If someone decides to come in with a 1500cc air cooled V-Twin would that be OK? How about a 2000cc air cooled V-Twin. Where does it stop. When does it quit evolving? Yes, some ride for the pure joy of things, but you have stated that you want the contingency.
I shortened your comments above down a bit, but let me answer the issues from this quoted section because I believe these are some important points.
1) I personally don't ride for contigency - I don't sign up for it (my choice for entirely personal reasons), but I think it is important that classes have enough riders to support contingency for those to whom it is important. Hence, changing classes around with a net effect of reduce the # of bkes in any class in a recessionary market is a bad idea as there won't be enough bikes on the grid for contingency to pay out. For the record, i would prefer lower tire prices for everyone and no contingency as this would make racing cheaper for everyone, not just the front runners.
2) The Ducati's and Buells do race against each other in the Lightweight class and in Thunderbike (or did you miss that in the rulebook - again which has been consistent for over 6 years?). You are focusing only on engine size abd neglect that what we are really talking about are completely different bike desigins (125cc 2 stroke GP bike), 650 cc V-twin liquid cooled 4 valve head sportikbe engine and an air cooled 2 valve v-twin streetbike motors. Each has its own +/- which may suit one rider or track more than others. In all reality, the rules don't favor one brand vs. another - there rules are just the rules and it is up to each racer to decide what to buy and how to modify to compete.
3) Evolution should not stop. It didn't stop in the 1970's when drum brakes were standard. It didn't stop when water cooling became mainstream. It didn't stop when the SV came out and took over the LW class from the Honda Hawk. I don't understand why is it the SV guys (some on beat down 19 year old bikes) that complain the loudest. The class structure is there and has been there for a long time, just because you choose to ride an older SS SV does not make that a valid reason that an existing rule strucutre should be changed so you can be more competitifve. You can choose to buy a different bike legal for the class, you can explore the rules and modify your bike to be more competitive than your rivals or you can buy a bike legal for a new class where you believe you will be more competitive. You hae every right to come out and race and do your best, but, if the rules were in place before you started and chose to race what you race, why should the rules change now that you realize that there are faster bikes and/or riders?
You ask why this constant whining bothers me? Well, I looked long and hard at the class structure in 2005, incluidng looking backwards to see how the rules changed and what had been deemed illegal in the class, I closely read the rulebook and considered my options and decidded that I wanted to build a bike to be competitive in the LW class at my favorite track (Road Ameriica) under superbike rules that would be relatively reliable. Choices were an SV, Buell XB9 or Ducati 1000SS. After much consideration about the advantages and disadvantages of each bike, combined with a bit of a flair for an italian bike, I chose the 1000SS and have spent 5 seasons planning, desinging, builidng, re-building, refining and enhanding this bike.
Now, please understand this is not a no-expenses spared exotic, unobtanium bike, there are a large number of upgrades and things I have chosen not to do in the interst of expense and reliability (but it does have some really cool parts). To give you an idea of the cash investment in total I have spent somewhere around $19,000 (over a period of 5 years), including the orignal acquisition cost. The only things not included in this cost total are tires and oil lchanges (the running total even considers bodywork repair, repainting, brake pads, etc...). What is not in this cost and I can not account for is the amount of time and effort spent developing this bike to do what I want - time spent talking to other ducati riders, researching products, working with suspension experts and mechanics even trying to learn and understand geometry and physics in order to troubleshoot certain handling gremlins that have been displayed over time...
The result is that my bike is reasonably fast and competitive at Road America (makes sense as that was the design criteria). I had good results there last year (2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes) with the podium in the GTL, LWSB and Thuderbike classes made up of a diverse set of bikes (I think all the podiums consistged of some conbination of Superbike SVs, a SuperbikeDucati 7500SS, a Superbike Buell and my superbike Ducati 1000SS). Note the important factor - each bike was built to a SB spec - really just showing that in a Superbike Class, you need to bring a Superbike build, especially at a track like Road America.
I am annoyed that sombeody who clearly has hot taken the time to understand the rules strucute and itshistory, and who has not put forth the effort to build a legal bike around the rules chooses to whine because they don't get to win. Racing is a competition - you either compete to win or you can just come to enjoy the effort. Whining that the rules are not fair to the choices you made because you didn't win isn't about competition, it is about the new socialistic expectation of the world. All I hear you saying is that you want your regional or national championship but don't want to do everything it takes to win.
George
Whew. Gee. Wow. You go, George. Excellent points throughout. I couldn't agree more with everything you said. One point in particular really stood out, though; competing to win. After my first (and incomplete) Am. season, I started to think ahead, determine my ultimate goals, and began to implement a plan wherein I would have a reasonable chance of realizing those goals. Mostly, I realized that having 2 bikes would be hugely beneficial for various and obvious reasons, and in fact, puchased another, (3rd) brand-new S2R after my 2nd Am. season as I thought that this would enhance my chances of success as an expert. Alas, I was never able to develop that bike because of the economic downturn, and actually sold it a few weeks back. Regardless, I did what I thought it was going to take to get the job done at the time.
There are many other strategies and techniques I'm employing beyond having multiple bikes, but what we're refering to is a level of commitment, right? Now granted, not everyone can afford a 19k bike, or multiple bikes! Acknowledged! I'm extremely grateful for everything I have, although honestly, I forego a LOT to concentrate on racing. But, they can take a bike and do what you did, that is, map a definite plan, do the work and research, and improve the bike and their skills to try and realize their goals. Unfortunately, though, this is racing, and everyone can't win. I'm continually amazed at how many racers just want a championship, any championship, and they seem to want it served up on a platter. I've seen a lot of references to our cultural sense of entitlement this debate season, and it really makes a lot of sense. Me, I don't get it. If I could only have the one bike, I'd still do the best I could with it, and be happy to have the opportunity.
My goals? Well, this is a new one from when I started out, but first and foremost, I want to have fun. Any and all of us are lucky just to take part in this sport. The world is more screwed up every day, and yet we are grown adults wasting gas, straining relationships, and risking our well-being, all to just chase each other in circles. Sure, it's awesome to be the fastest idiot, but I kinda think we're all STILL just idiots. What we do makes not a spit of difference to the rest of the world. Other goals? Well, of course I'd also like to win some expert championships, which may never happen. Hell, may nothing, it'll most likely never happen. Nevertheless, I will do everything I can within the rules that are set forth by the sanctioning body to facilitate this. However, if I fail, it's entirely on me, and that will be fine. I'll do my best. And if you fail, it's on you. I'll never resent another racer for having a better machine, more resources, or better skills. It would be disrespectful to do so, to say the least. I think the reason we get so irritated on this topic is because we adhere to this tenet. I've known some great racers, and I've known some awesome people. My very favorite people in the world are both. Utimately, we can complain, or we can try to optimize and overcome. I choose the latter. Please don't penalize me or anyone else for doing so.
I'm still trying to figure out how to race a 19 year old SV???
sup Jim!
I'll see you kids at the MW rounds, hopefully you'll be chasing me on my 12 year old zook...
great points, not much else to add.
I raced lightweights on a SV in 2003 before the rule change. Spent 4 years 2004-2008 working overseas, did track days in 2009, then started racing again in 2010. It is what it is and that's about it. I'll still race my SVs at the local CCS races but going to Daytona on an SV would be a wasted effort. I'll concentrate on the WERA races and attend the GNF in the fall.
Quote from: tstruyk on January 20, 2011, 02:17:49 PM
great points, not much else to add.
I am still waiting for the always relevant "well good for you!" :biggrin:
cocked and loaded... just waiting for the riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight time
::)
Quote from: apriliaman on January 20, 2011, 11:55:59 AM.My DUC with a full tank of gas is 418lbs 20 lbs more then other duc's in my class,as you see i havent put any lightweight parts on it,maybe this year and is 408 after gt lights.My SV is 385 with a full tank.
Marc your Ducati is heavy as heck. My 800 weigh in at 365# with two gallons of fuel. Your SV is pretty slow comapred to many other SVs
Hey mark My bike fits the MOTO-ST limit good 75hp and a 360lbs limit with no gas. But my bike doesn't go as fast as those at the time , Is it the bike or the rider?? Go to Roebling Road so we can have a good race.My bike runs good there.
Quote from: Farmboy on January 20, 2011, 02:03:25 PM
Sure, it's awesome to be the fastest idiot, but I kinda think we're all STILL just idiots.
Pure poetry and so true.
Thanks for the reminder that we are all just idiots riding in circles!
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on January 20, 2011, 10:54:30 PM
Pure poetry and so true.
Thanks for the reminder that we are all just idiots riding in circles!
George
It took me a couple of years, but it finally dawned on me that we weren't actually getting anywhere..
In that same vein I'm struggling with the risk reward relationship. In business, I've been trained to take a certain amount of risk but only if the reward is substantial. So in racing we risk becoming cripples, poverty etc.. and all for a wooden plaque??? No wonder most people consider us insane... But then there is the adiction to adrenaline....
Markie your 800 is still too heavy my 900 was at 310 till all the ti bits fell off mr boys aluminum framed bimota weighed in at
around 295. Now that bike was fast
I truly like the mindset that if you have a different opinion, or a different way of looking at things that you are a winer.(whinner). How about this one. Let the Buells and Duc's run in LWSB using SS rules. Everyone should understand that you can build a 1000 or 1200cc bike to have much more HP than you can a smaller displacement bike when comparing 4 stroke to 4 stroke. George.....this is a suggestion, not whinning. Civil conversation and an understanding of a view other than your own is a nice thing. It is easy to like the rules as they are when you are the beneficiary of the rules. I am not asking you to sell your bike or race an SV, I am simply making suggestions that will make the racing more competitive and therefore have more participants. P.S. Pirelli has done what you suggested. They have eliminated contingency and lowered the price of the tires by about $45.00 per set for the SV. Do not know what the price reduction is for the Duc. I hope that in the future we can keep from calling fellow racers names. There are fewer and fewer of us as you have said. We can be friends and disagree. Peter Meringolo (hope I spelled his name right) and I are friends and he rides a Duc. (a very fast Duc with a great rider) We are a small group of people, the friendships that I have made while racing will by far outlast the wood that the plaques are made of. Have a good season George and I hope that I will have the opportunity to race with you someday.
Quit your whining you cheap SV rider and build a proper superbike for the class. That way you can plop your lard ass on the seat and blow by the slower bikes on the long straights.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 22, 2011, 12:29:44 AM
Quit your whining you cheap SV rider and build a proper superbike for the class. That way you can plop your lard ass on the seat and blow by the slower bikes on the long straights.
Exactly! Now we all know, its not the rider, its all about the bike.
George
George. I think that you and I would get along if we ever met. I am not sure about the guy who called me a lard ass. I am 6 feet tall and weigh 175 pounds. If that qualifies for lard ass there are a lot of people in trouble. I will race most of the races this year with WERA but will still run the NJMP and the Summit Rounds with CCS. I love the guys I ride with in CCS just don't want to spend much more money on the bike. With alot more power comes tire wear and expenses that I really don't want. I guess second and third will have to do with CCS and maybe a win from time to time with WERA. Again, have a great season and be safe.