Motorcycle Racing Forum

We have been considering a change to the more universally used AMB/My Laps transponder based scoring system for 2011.

If we change over to this system, it would mean that you would have to purchase an AMB/My Laps transponder, current retail is $420 for the rechargable and $380 for the hard wired unit.

On the plus side of the equation for you as a rider, this unit is compatible with the systems in use at various other organization so you would only have to have one unit. You would also see instant upload of lap times and scoring information to the MyLaps website giving you access to all your times and laps from multiple events.

The simple question is:
Are you willing to purchase a personal transponder?

You can also e-mail your answer to info@ccsracing.us with a simple yes or no in the subject line and feel free to voice your opinion in the body of the email.

No, due to the limited number of weekends I can do for a given year.

BUT, I am willing to rent it for the weekend...

YES! - as long as it's the same unit used by CRA & WERA... the X260 I believe.  probably cuz I already have one.

I would suggest the option to rent a transponder tho I personally would be willing to buy one if usable across multiple orgs so if/when I'm done racing I can recoup part or all of the cost

I bought one earlier this year in case I was accepted for the IOM TT.  It would be nice to actually use it.

Used ones can be bought for $250.

Yes.

Will the results of answering this pole be the same as the poll for the location of ROC this year?

Not to be a complete @$$, but, If you have either already hade a decision  or will make a decision irrespective of the information gathered in a poll just F@k'ng do it and don't make it seem like we have input.

I don't second guess that you are running a business and have to make decisions in the interest of said business.  However, I just don't see the value of creating a poll if you don't listen to the input.  You would be much better served to just provide us information that due to changes in techology and systems issues you are considering a move to the AMB transponder system and that if this occurs, riders who choose to purchase transponders could get a discount in race entry fees; or, riders who do not own said transponder would be required to pay supplemental fees to rent a transponder for an event...

Ultimately, it is just another peice of equipment we need to have in order to race.

George

YES because I already have an AMB transponder!

will i need 2 transponders for running Team Challenge and Sprints?
tim

I have a 260.

Oh not another poll asking what the racers think! lol

Perhaps you should preface this post with... f.y.i. "There is no guarantee that the outcome of this poll, will have any effect what so ever, on our final decision."       Just to be safe, ya know?

Hmmm vote what you really think or....the oppisite? That's a tough one.

Is it possible that the transponder will work with your run of the mill lap timers and such. If so then i'm game.

We'd buy 'em, cuz I think these are the same ones AHRMA uses and we'd get some good 'bang for the buck ($800 EEEK!)... but would strongly suggest rental as an option rather than throwing up one more barrier to entry for potential new racers.

TC could be addressed by having the team captain designate a transponder for TC use at registration.

We talk about cost of racing and how outrageous it has become, yet we agree to more cost in purchasing a transponder?

The cost of this transponder will be 50% of the total cost of the last racebike I have put together-$700 for a FZR400.

I would venture to say that most of the yes votes already have a transponder and do not need to purchase a new one.

I also wonder-how will this make me or my bike safer? How will this make me faster? How does this improve my bike?

So far my vote is No.

I don't own a race bike right now that is ready to go, but I still have my own personal AMB transmitter that I used with WERA, CRA, and this year with ARHMA.  They are available used.  Sometimes they are used for other kinds of racing...like bicycling and stuff. 

I have to agree with Mark about how we complain that the cost of racing is soooo expensive but yet agree to accept to purchase a transponder that will add to the yearly cost of your racing budget.  
One of the biggest reasons I race with CCS and not WERA is so I do not have to buy that transponder along with other reasons, but I feel the system is working just great as it is now with showing up and receiving and then returning the transponder when racing is over.  That is no more added cost to me.  If you think about it, for people running the MA series that is another $42 per weekend for 10 races thoughout the year which could be used for gas, gate fee, food or whatever.  

Sorry Kevin, but in a slumping economy, I have to say NO as this puts another damper on my racings bottom line!!

BOB MICHAEL
B&E MOTORSPORTS
#24
KTM RC8R

How about for the people that want to race just 1 or 2 events a year? That would be alot.For me it is alot as i just make it to the track already as i got slim to none extra $$.But I would have to get one if it was required since i race everywhere.And the $42 extra for 10 events in your first year,that could have been the race gas money and that aint cheep.

IF in any way this came about, I would hope the transponder would be able to be used with WERA not just CCS events. Also, they should be able to be rented for a reasonable price for those racers that don't do many events per year. As some have pointed out, the transponders can be purchased used for a decent price.

i vote no, we don't even know if there will be tracks to race at next year, go back to manual scoring before saddeling us with another expense

I have to agree with the Nay-Sayers this time. With things on shaky ground right now investing $420 on a transponder that I might or might not be able to use is not a smart move.

IMHO, additional cost for the racer at this time would seemingly be yet another barrier to entry against the immediate goal of increasing racer participation for CCS in 2011.

Immediate answer is no.....however, a bit of a longview should be considered....

(assumes there would be rental options for those racers who cannot afford the move, outright purchase....)

...Standardizing the scoring platform in concert with the majority, CRA, AMA, AHRMA, WERA does make sense where there is an overlap in participation and opportunity to increase race grids at a very high level.

Which segues to the next point; Why the change?

Does a standardization of scoring platforms present an opportunity for combined future race weekends in some fashion between various sanctions?

That is, instead of the sanction bodies cutting events back in 2011, why not cooperate with your competition -> ["coopetition"] as in combined rounds [insert desired sanction(s)] where there is a certain % of overlap in rules, classes, etc such as a combined CCS/WERA round.....one sanction could "invite" the other.

Even if the classes/races themselves maintained their respective sanction association, why not hold one sanction body's class races on one day, followed by another sanction body the second day to give the racers a complete weekend?

This could provide an interesting, unique opportunity for the sanction bodies in 2011.

Instead of carving up single day race events in 2011 per weekend to weather the down economy, similar to the last rounds of BFR in 2010, how about two (2) single day races [each sanction maintains its own day] combined to become a complete two day race weekend?

Cooperating sanctions could enjoy greater opportunity for their respective grids by extending invites across the sanction bodies to licensed racers and open the doors to more racers outside of their confines where everyone is struggling to get NEW racers.... how about racers NEW to CCS such as currently licensed CMRA, WERA, CRA, or AMA racers?

Certain blasphemy, I know, I know.... first, scheduling is impossible, next whose insurance is an issue, from here, operations is difficult, secret handshake still secret........Of course, critically the rulebook and classes are quite complicated and technical requirements are very different, by design.....

However, in the face of all of this, it seems many road racers still find each other on the same grid from time to time across "proprietary" sanction lines to compete. How? focus on the commonality, as opposed to the difference to make the race.

Why not make it easier for more racers (not necessarily "new") to participate across sanctioning borders as opposed to harder simply to support a "proprietary grid".

If migrating the CCS scoring system towards AMB, arguably the industry standard, from Westhold (current) brings about opportunity such as this, perhaps more racers could see the benefit and overall value proposition, I would vote yes.

Otherwise, what is the benefit to the additional cost, as others have identified, that also becomes yet another barrier to entry for new racers?

my .02 cents,
michael

Quote from: apriliaman on September 07, 2010, 11:45:56 PM
How about for the people that want to race just 1 or 2 events a year? That would be alot.For me it is alot as i just make it to the track already as i got slim to none extra $$.But I would have to get one if it was required since i race everywhere.And the $42 extra for 10 events in your first year,that could have been the race gas money and that aint cheep.

im in the same boat. if i had the extra 420 then the answer would be yes. but i dont.

As KBOlsen said, the LAST thing we need right now is yet another financial barrier for new races.


Considering the poor turnout and potential financial problems, why would CCS be considering a new timing system? 

Pay someone a comparatively small amount to figure out what the hell is so broken with the output from the current scoring system that prevents it from exporting properly to a site like myracingbio or whatever.  Or create a new laptimes site that can handle the data.

Look at WERA rental fees for a transponder. It ain't cheap!!!!!!! 

Rental - $60 per event. Must have a credit card for deposit.  And that's why I don't try WERA!


50% of your rental fees can be applied towards the purchase price so long as you have copies of your receipts. We will NOT be able to provide these copies for you.

Besides, CCS already has transponders!

I would by one, but I agree there must be a rental option that's not so cost prohibitive that it discourages people from racing. Even though I've never raced with any organization other than CCS, I do like the idea of having a common system in place that can be used with multiple race org's. I can also see how the possibility of having your results from any event using this system being displayed all in one place would be nice as well (I assume that theres a unique user ID that remains constant with a personal transponder making it automatic when the racing org's add your results to the website).

Concerning the discussion here about additional cost to the racers, I think it's fair to add that this will reduce the operating costs of CCS races, eliminate the hastle at every event of trying to get everyones transponders back, and be one less thing that's required during registration. I think from a business operation point of view everyone having their own transponder is a win situation all around, it will help in streamlining CCS operations (just like industry is doing with 'lean manufacturing' practices today).

Theres been mention of $60 rental costs, does that respectively mean if we all had our own transponders that entry fees would be lowered by somewhere from $5 to $15 per class to compensate the average racer per event, or result in no increases in race entry fees for a while and/or adding possible payouts? If there was a resulting reduction in race entry cost I think everyone having their own personal transponder would be better recieved.

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on September 08, 2010, 10:40:15 AM
I would by one, but I agree there must be a rental option that's not so cost prohibitive that it discourages people from racing. Even though I've never raced with any organization other than CCS, I do like the idea of having a common system in place that can be used with multiple race org's. I can also see how the possibility of having your results from any event using this system being displayed all in one place would be nice as well (I assume that theres a unique user ID that remains constant with a personal transponder making it automatic when the racing org's add your results to the website).

Concerning the discussion here about additional cost to the racers, I think it's fair to add that this will reduce the operating costs of CCS races, eliminate the hastle at every event of trying to get everyones transponders back, and be one less thing that's required during registration. I think from a business operation point of view everyone having their own transponder is a win situation all around, it will help in streamlining CCS operations (just like industry is doing with 'lean manufacturing' practices today).

Theres been mention of $60 rental costs, does that respectively mean if we all had our own transponders that entry fees would be lowered by somewhere from $5 to $15 per class to compensate the average racer per event, or result in no increases in race entry fees for a while and/or adding possible payouts? If there was a resulting reduction in race entry cost I think everyone having their own personal transponder would be better recieved.

your probably right, but for some of us long term payback isnt much of an option when we need to have the 420 up front. maybe giving out some sort of internal financing option. say....at the beginning of the season when we have to renew our licenses add $50 to the license renewal for a down payment. each race that person will have to pay $20 dollars on top of the cost of entry fees until paid for. at the end of the season if the transponder isnt paid for then the person will not be allowed to renew the license the next year until it is caught up. it gives us budget minded people a whole season to pay the 420.

Quote from: barkley57 on September 07, 2010, 10:48:48 PM
I have to agree with Mark about how we complain that the cost of racing is soooo expensive but yet agree to accept to purchase a transponder that will add to the yearly cost of your racing budget. 
One of the biggest reasons I race with CCS and not WERA is so I do not have to buy that transponder along with other reasons, but I feel the system is working just great as it is now with showing up and receiving and then returning the transponder when racing is over.  That is no more added cost to me.  If you think about it, for people running the MA series that is another $42 per weekend for 10 races thoughout the year which could be used for gas, gate fee, food or whatever. 

Sorry Kevin, but in a slumping economy, I have to say NO as this puts another damper on my racings bottom line!!

BOB MICHAEL
B&E MOTORSPORTS
#24
KTM RC8R

+1

1 of the 3 reasons I don't race WERA

I agree with Geno. There's no reason to tag this onto the racers right now.
Am I taking crazy pills, or didn't HPT just cancel a round, due to "financial reasons"????
Isn't there talk of the GP region being phased out, completely and blended into MW?
Isn't there already talk about GIR closing its doors for 2011?
I have already put off buying a new race bike for next season, because I am not sure there will even BE a "next season" for me right now.
So, am I willing to shell out $420 just because there's issues loading lap times onto some web site?!?!?   Do the transponders work as they are, or was there some sort of terrible calamity that we need a whole new system?
If they turn in viable lap times, then there's no need to change them. If this all comes down to being able to migrate data to some lap times web site.....sheesh.  Who cares? I'm not willing to shell out $420 just to see my lap times on a web site.  Sorry.

Remember, we already rent the transponders, it's just always been incorporated into the race entry fees. Had CCS been itemizing our race entry fees into what our money was going toward it would have shown a portion going toward a transponder rental cost at every event you've ever raced in, that's a factor in why your 1st entries per event costs so much.

Between entry fees, gate fees, travel & lodging costs, race fuel, tires, lost wages from missing work, etc., the cost of the transponder isn't even the true cost of a single race event for the average racer - and unless you destroy it then its a 1 time purchase that you don't make again. If you don't race more than 1 or 2 events per season then renting a transponder should be a relatively negligible cost per season. If you start setting aside $2 per day right now you'll have enough money to pay for the $420 transponder unit around the start of next season.

I look at it from the business aspect, many businesses are struggling to survive - it's either they sink or do what ever they have to do to stay alive. There's a substantial cost involved in CCS renting the transponders that we use, if eliminating transponder rental costs helps CCS to stay a float I'm all for it. The streamlining created for CCS by having personal transponders for each racer would be worth it in itself - no more having to enter in unique transponder ID's for every racer at every event across the nation. Your personal transponders unique ID code would be entered in to your personal racer profile on CCS's computer system and would never have to be entered in again, that would eliminate so many headaches in itself - that's just plain & simple smart business!

If this helps CCS cut costs in order to help make it thru tough times I think it would be selfish of us as racers to not do our part and make a relatively minor investment in helping the bigger picture.

Well said, Mike

I think the excuse of having to buy a trnsponder being the difference between racing or not rings hollow.
It would streamline CCS' administrative overhead, expedite lap time uploads, and standardize club racing timing systems.  I think it makes sense.  And no, I don't already own one.

I agree with others who have questioned the point of making this a poll
If you want to do it, then do it and tell us what we need to do to go racing next year
Asking first just begs for more resentment when you ultimately make the call

Quote from: bel-biv on September 08, 2010, 03:12:35 PM
Well said, Mike

I think the excuse of having to buy a trnsponder being the difference between racing or not rings hollow.
It would streamline CCS' administrative overhead, expedite lap time uploads, and standardize club racing timing systems.  I think it makes sense.  And no, I don't already own one.

I agree with others who have questioned the point of making this a poll
If you want to do it, then do it and tell us what we need to do to go racing next year
Asking first just begs for more resentment when you ultimately make the call

that about sums up my thoughts!

Some of you mentioning cost as a factor ought to take a look at your race programs.

Bob, you're racing an RC8.

Mark, you do every event in three regions.

Quote from: vnvbandit on September 08, 2010, 10:02:51 AM
Besides, CCS already has transponders!

Well, that never made them free. 

No matter what, electronic scoring is something that is used in almost all motorcycle road racing.  Whether one buys their own transmitter or it is supplied by the organization, you're paying for it.

Does it add a cost?  Sure, but the transmitter actually has value when you're done with it.  It's not like a set of tires that is spent after using them so many laps. 

CCS buys them and each CCS competitor pays for them within the fees they pay.  So, no, they aren't free at all. 

I call myself fortunate that I race in the Florida Region. When we began using the transponders the race fees didn't go up. In fact we are paying the same fees as we did back in say...2005(Thank You Henry DeGouw). Our first race is $55 and every race thereafter is $55. We do get a Saturday practice day(now will be a CCS track day) for a convenient $75.

So, free transpoder? Yes I could say it is.

Now, wouldn't you rather me spend that $420 on more racing(race fee) instead of buying a transponder?

In speculation that an AMB transponder must be purchased or rented for the weekend, do you really think the racing fees are gonna come down?

Budget? Yes I do and I could put away that $2 for a transpnder or I could put that $2 to that part I have been waiting oh so long to get just to end that chatter these emulators just aren't solving.

Now if the decision is made that we don't get the AMB transponders, will we lose any racers?  If we do get the AMB transponders will there be less racers?

Continue...

Quote from: majicMARKer on September 08, 2010, 05:50:05 PM
Our first race is $55 and every race thereafter is $55. We do get a Saturday practice day(now will be a CCS track day) for a convenient $75.

Wow.....I guess the rest of us have been taking it up the kiester! Apparently, our transponder rental fee is worth somewhere in the realm of $30 then.....

Look, I'm all for being on par with other racing org's. And if this system is better- great, maybe the transition shoul dbe done. But if so- would the rest of us (non Florida folks, that is) get back to $55/$55 pricing, or would we still be paying the $60/$80 price PLUS the cost of the new and improved transponder?

Sorry for the harsh sounding tone, but our sport is dying off faster than beers at a redneck cookout, and we're now talking about having to drop more $$$? 

I get that this would cut costs for CCS, and if it does- and that helps the company stay afloat, then I am all for it....as long as the current transponder rental fee is removed from entries.

Discuss.

Quote from: skiandclimb on September 08, 2010, 06:40:53 PM...as long as the current transponder rental fee is removed from entries.

Discuss.

Well, that presupposes that other fees associated with operations don't go up...

Insurance is tied to the markets, litigation, etc.

Track rentals and the competition for weekend dates with cars, bicycles, trackdays, and so on along with the need to upgrade and maintain track facilities with similarly increasing overhead costs.


Just to throw out some examples, when I started racing, it was $30 for the first entry, $20 for the second, $10 for each one after.  They went up that year, but, in the overall scheme of things, it hasn't been a terrible increase over that long period of time.

Yeah but Dave you have been racing since Jesus was in his first moto. :)

As mentioned earlier, I just hope this isn't just so our times can fit a web site. It would be a shame to trash can allot of transponders just for that.

Quote from: Gixxerblade on September 08, 2010, 08:19:25 PM
Yeah but Dave you have been racing since Jesus was in his first moto. :)

Nah, that was Ed Key.  I did see Muhammed in tech though... 

Quote from: vnvbandit on September 08, 2010, 08:29:34 PM
As mentioned earlier, I just hope this isn't just so our times can fit a web site. It would be a shame to trash can allot of transponders just for that.

I don't think the dbCom system that CCS has was considered to be outstanding at the time CCS got them...CCE implemented that?  And that whole system is old.  I don't know the age of most of the transmitters that CCS has, but we've certainly been using them with CCS since 2001 if not just a little longer. 

Quote from: Super Dave on September 08, 2010, 08:37:07 PM
I don't think the dbCom system that CCS has was considered to be outstanding at the time CCS got them...CCE implemented that?  And that whole system is old.  I don't know the age of most of the transmitters that CCS has, but we've certainly been using them with CCS since 2001 if not just a little longer. 

I didn't know they were that old. Has CCS had problems with them?

Quote from: vnvbandit on September 08, 2010, 08:57:59 PM
I didn't know they were that old. Has CCS had problems with them?

I think they are what they are.  If you have them in inventory, you use them until you can't.  There are reasons that most other organizations are using the AMB set up. 

As I stated earlier and others have alluded to, Race tracks are cancelling events, race tracks are talking of closing, sanctioning bodies are talking of closing the doors, existing series are disappearing. Yes it is a one time cost but Dave, it doesn't have any lasting value if there is nowhere to use it. Now as for your next argument, that I can sell it to someone else who's series didn't fold, how about all the other guys who want to sell one, do we need a lesson on supply and demand? I understand that CCS has been maintaining the current transponders and since this is the second thread this season regarding a possible switch my guess is that the transponders that Kevin holds is starting to show it's age. I would agree that it would be in the series best interest to move to a more current unit but the timing is wrong. If we make it through 2011 intact and the future looks good then let's look at this then but for now we need to make what we have work. As far as switching goes, how much is CCS going to save if they have a rental policy? that means that Kevin will have to buy enough AMBs to cover racers that won't invest in one right now, how much less does anyone think that will cost than keeping the westholds running another year.

Bottom line, when the business is just treading water you don't go out and buy new stuff, you make do with what you have. LEt's talk next year.

Quote from: SVbadguy on September 08, 2010, 03:33:29 PM
Some of you mentioning cost as a factor ought to take a look at your race programs.

Bob, you're racing an RC8.

Mark, you do every event in three regions.

Travis, I didn't pay full retail for my RC8R as I am a dealer so the cost of the bike was cheap to me as I sold my 08 R6 and dumped that money into my KTM.  Actually it is has been pretty cheap to buy for me as well as to maintain.  If you refering to the bike being $20K or more for me to race your way off. 

we are kind of lucky in florida we have 4 tracks counting daytona so going to another sanctioning body is not something that most of us do especially since florida is in a depression .it's another expense that the new guy would have to tack on. we want the trackday guys to come and play . but a race school , license, a real set of tires, entry fees , a legal helmet , leathers that hold knee pucks , tire warmers , a generator for the warmers.  the cost of entry for the crew ( i never have less than four) oh an another piece of electronic nonsense for a mere 420 bucks those trackday guys are going to start laughing at us .  then you get to the track and it craps out or it gets ground up and your fwcked.  plus since only about 5 percent of the racers even know this site is here how you going to convince them  most are so cheap or broke they'reready to quit if they get a flat on the way to the the track.. there's also whole bunch that only want to run a couple times a year(i really only want to race daytona ).  plus at homestead  they will just get stolen     how about ccs selling the  old ones they have to us at a reduced rate or start renting them to us for 5 or 10 bucks a weekend until they gathered up enough to upgrade the whole system    

maybe the $420 charge could be looked at as purchasing "perspective", the transponder is just a bonus...  :biggrin:

if its just about the racing buy a smaller bike that eats one less set of tires (or two rears) less per year...

compete in one less race per year

compete in one less class all year

how many of us drink starbucks?  eat out?  smoke?  any of those expenses cut out on an annual basis would more than cover a transponder.

there are options other than the "doom and gloom economy"... I would be if any of us had a set of tire warmers shoot craps it wouldnt "end your season"... you would find a way to make it work.

not pickin a fight... just sayin lets be honest with ourselves

Given the progress being made with the el-cheapie in comparison RFID based systems, I don't see a reason to jump to AMB right now if the current gear is working.

But why spend money if it isn't totally necessary? Can we opt out and not use a transponder? I don't really need that knowledge that my crappy little $100 lap timer can't give me. Will it be a must have to race with CCS?

I already race an Ultralight bike. I already stretch my tires to the bare minimum($700 out of pocket for 2009). I do race 2 classes and some times I will ride 4, but that is not often. And I should really race less so I can buy this transponder? If I don't race at all then I could really afford it.

I am with Paul. Let's get this club back onto it's feet as in a positive direction and we can talk next year.

I am curious, how many participants/racers are actually at a race event. I am aware of an informal count of 70 at the local summer event? How is your region doing?

Ive been racing CCS for 10 years i guess it is time for some new technolgy.
Does it count split times in 4 sections of the track?        22.64         25.72             14.63            25.84
Does it give you your top speed for each lap?           153mph
If it does then it is good.
I'll get one if i have to

Quote from: tstruyk on September 08, 2010, 10:08:05 PM
maybe the $420 charge could be looked at as purchasing "perspective", the transponder is just a bonus...  :biggrin:

if its just about the racing buy a smaller bike that eats one less set of tires (or two rears) less per year...

compete in one less race per year

compete in one less class all year

how many of us drink starbucks?  eat out?  smoke?  any of those expenses cut out on an annual basis would more than cover a transponder.

there are options other than the "doom and gloom economy"... I would be if any of us had a set of tire warmers shoot craps it wouldnt "end your season"... you would find a way to make it work.

not pickin a fight... just sayin lets be honest with ourselves

I ride an SV, I  get two weekends on a set of tires (which is my entire 2010 season), I don't drink coffee, I don't eat out, I don't smoke, I don't do movies, clubs or bars. I don't have a trailer, I sleep in my van after the bike is out, I bring the food and water I eat for the whole weekend. I don't have enough money to do the little racing I do now and I'm not sure if I am going to have a place to race next year anyway. I am being brutally honest with myself and honestly, now is not the time.

You say skip a race weekend, I believe that is what caused Kevin to reduce the last 2 BHF rounds to 1 day isn't it? Or what caused HPT to cancel the final round outright? What CCS needs right now is for the racers who are strapped to show up for one MORE weekend, not one LESS. What CCS needs right now is for the trackday guys who think it's too expensive to go racing to come out and give it a shot, hey, let's hit em up for $420 before they even get registered, that'll make it seem less expensive than trackdays.

What CCS needs to do right now is get through 2011, get participation up, then think about upgrading the recording system.

Take this scenario into consideration: the old set up is old, worn and desperately needs to be replaced.

So the series owner asks your input: Purchase or not? It's a yes no question. If you purchase, you own the unit, if you do not, your entry fees may have to go up. Part of business is covering your overhead, and a timing and scoring is part of overhead, whether you do it digitally or manually. You guys want it done digitally so the timing can be uploaded to the internets, get a printout at the track, etc. If that system is aging and failing, you guys will be the first to bitch loud and long about the fact you didn't get what you paid for when the fecal matter hits the fan.

I don't know what the life expectancy is of a transponder unit, but I'll bet they are at the critical point as the ones CCS has are fairly old.

I'm going to say this once again, because I think people keep skipping this point: CCS and all of the other series are for profit businesses. They are not there to sponsor or support your racing, that is your responsibility as a rider. Their job is to provide you with a venue to compete.

Super Dave has it right. This is an amortized cost, whether you purchase a unit or CCS decides to rent or raise entry fees. One way or another, you will bear the cost. Tires are disposable, but at least this is hard equipment you can use for a long period of time or resell to recoup some of your cost when you no longer need it. The fact that CCS is considering the AMB system that is compatible with others in use says that they have your best interests in mind.

Quote from: Kurlon on September 08, 2010, 10:28:44 PM
Given the progress being made with the el-cheapie in comparison RFID based systems, I don't see a reason to jump to AMB right now if the current gear is working.

If we can hold out one more year................Maybe we can have the "latest & greatest" RFID technology!
I wouldn't mind chipping in for the newest stuff. No use in buying "old technology", or we'll be right back to where we are now! Lets not get the 8 track player one year before it dies! Or Atari for that matter.  :banghead:

Yes the Tranx 260 is compatible with all other AMB/My Laps systems in use by AMA Pro, WERA, CRA, CMRA, AHRMA.

We will not go back to manual scoring. (It is nearly impossible to find people who can do manual scoring especially with the small numbers and number plates you all love to use so that suggestion is unrealistic.) One benefit will be that we would no longer have to be so strict on your stylization of the numbers.

The average age of the Westhold transmitters we lease is 8 years old. The software has limitations that the AMB/My Laps does not have. We lease these transmitters from Westhold and when they were implemented your first entry fee was raised by $5 to cover the initial cost of implementation. Subsequent increases were due to higher insurance and track rental costs, not the scoring system.

Rental units will always be a part of the program, average rental fees are $40 to $60 per race depending on who owns the rental units. Owning your transponder gets you access to all your lap times and information, renting does not.

If we change to AMB/My Laps, it will not affect the cost of the event for CCS, just to simplify personnel issues (i.e. trying to find a good manual scorer.)  Purchase of the software and equipment right now will cost CCS the same as the Westhold lease does per event. One factor that brought about this request for input is the knowledge that the cost of the AMB/My Laps system will increase in 2011 but if we make the commitment now, it would save us all money in the long run.

At this time the RFID system is incapable of making line calls and until that flaw is fixed, it is not practical for race application. (Go back to manual scorers needed if you were to use that system.)

Well that explains a lot - thanks Kevin (no sarcasm intended, that really does provide more of hte picture)

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Will CCS have a rent to own plan?

I take it that it is a significant increase in the purchase of the AMB system?

I belive AMB will also do a "group buy" every once and a while...

$60 a race is quite steep for rental costs..  Is that per race or per weekend?

I know with AHRMA, the rental cost covered the whole weekend.

CRA charges $50.00 a weekend (Friday Pratice through Sunday), plus a $375 security deposit.
WERA is $60.00 a weekend rental, but if you save up receipts (10 or 14 I think - you get a free rental - Granted it cost you 2X what it would have to buy one new...)
AHRMA Charges $60.00 a weekend for rental - but they perfer you reserve them ahead fo time.

I'd say the $40 - $60 per race weekend (Can't be per race...) rental cost is right in line.

Thanks for the info Kevin. Makes sense.  How about setting up a large group buy? We should be able to get a break???

Sorry about the confusion, the rental would be per event, not each individual race. My bad.

If we go to the personal transponder system, the initial 30 to 45 days would have a discount on the units, probably in the $30 to $40 range, I haven't got that down exactly yet since we have not committed to changing systems.

Rather than the WERA program that allows you to get 50% of your rental credit (for rentals within the calender year with your receipts) towards the purchase, we'd look more to provide a less expensive rental to everyone that doesn't want to purchase one.

As pointed out earlier, this is not something you use for one season and then throw away. These units are warrantied for 5 years and some have been working for 8-10 years. If you sell it when you're done, the new owner only has to pay a small transfer fee to My Laps.com to take over the advantage of the information available there. Just like using the Westhold system, we look at the change as being a long term solution to one of our problems.

Has AMB gotten better about used transponder sales?  It was my understanding that in the past they treated buyers of used transponders as second class citizens, and wouldn't update racer info at mylaps, etc?

Quote from: Kurlon on September 13, 2010, 07:37:27 PM
Has AMB gotten better about used transponder sales?  It was my understanding that in the past they treated buyers of used transponders as second class citizens, and wouldn't update racer info at mylaps, etc?

That's really an issue to take up when buying a used transmitter from the seller.  A transmitter could be easily stolen, then used.  They are protecting their original customer until what time that individual notifies them that it has been sold. 

Dang, what a pain. I wish the organization would just buy the transponders themselves or lease them from the maker.

Of course this poll is the informal venue where as the recent CCS flyer reports that the formal poll is when you the user/CCS racer responds by email to info@CCSRacing.us

Quote from: Super Dave on September 13, 2010, 07:48:08 PM
That's really an issue to take up when buying a used transmitter from the seller.  A transmitter could be easily stolen, then used.  They are protecting their original customer until what time that individual notifies them that it has been sold. 

Sounds like they have improved then, in the past even with the seller's cooperation they were not friendly to the 2nd buyer.

They have gotten better in the last year or so.  They do charge $40 to have the "owner" swapped over in the mylaps system, but they are much "nicer" about it than in the past...  But I know exactly what you mean.
http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/B2C/bike/shop/used_transponders (http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/B2C/bike/shop/used_transponders)

Quote from: Kurlon on September 13, 2010, 07:37:27 PM
Has AMB gotten better about used transponder sales?  It was my understanding that in the past they treated buyers of used transponders as second class citizens, and wouldn't update racer info at mylaps, etc?

I bought a used AMB transponder this year and had no problems and no transfer fees.  I simply went to their website and registered the transponder number under my name.  easy!

is there a specific model number for this transponder. i am seeing a ton of them on ebay and just want to pick up the right one.

It will probably be the X260 but you might want to wait to see if they actually do get the system.

Quote from: Jason748 on September 14, 2010, 10:24:05 AM
They have gotten better in the last year or so.  They do charge $40 to have the "owner" swapped over in the mylaps system, but they are much "nicer" about it than in the past...  But I know exactly what you mean.
http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/B2C/bike/shop/used_transponders (http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/B2C/bike/shop/used_transponders)

WOW and another fee??????????

Quote from: vnvbandit on September 14, 2010, 11:54:52 AM
WOW and another fee??????????

No fee if you buy a new one.

If CCS does go ahead with this new system are there any plans to reduce reg fees for those of us that bring a personal AMB transponder?

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 14, 2010, 12:53:18 PM
If CCS does go ahead with this new system are there any plans to reduce reg fees for those of us that bring a personal AMB transponder?

My guess is that would be a No. Instead I speculate that those funds will be put towards other additional costs of running the club that we as racers just don't see, ya know the hidden costs kinds like a dealer fee when you buy a new car.

I would also speculate that if and when the decision is made to go the route of the AMB the cost of purchasing a used transponder will also go up-based on supply and demand. One must also consider any additional connection/transfer fees when purchasing a used transponder.

hey mark had to text the worlds cheapest racer mingo about about buying a transponder he said he's. Done. Might want to start talkin about this at the riders meeting for a few months before they make a rash desison

So a one time investment of $420 for a transponder that you will own, that can be used seemlessly with multiple race org's, that you can sell in the future and recover probably 1/2 your investment, and that will help streamline & improve CCS's registration process and scoring system, is all it will take (for those who apparently enter the least amount of race classes per season) to quit racing with CCS ever again?

Even if as an option, rental units will be available at a reasonable cost as well?

REALLY?

:err:

Yup, they'll quit CCs and go race with WERA!

Oh, wait, they'll still have to buy a transponder.

:biggrin:

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on September 15, 2010, 11:27:50 AM
So a one time investment of $420 for a transponder that you will own, that can be used seemlessly with multiple race org's, that you can sell in the future and recover probably 1/2 your investment, and that will help streamline & improve CCS's registration process and scoring system, is all it will take (for those who apparently enter the least amount of race classes per season) to quit racing with CCS ever again?

Even if as an option, rental units will be available at a reasonable cost as well?

REALLY?

:err:

Answer; You may be racing by yourself. One of the topics on here has been about how track days have stolen away some riders that may have been racing if it were not for track days yet we make racing even more costly. There are racers out there that don't use high compression pistons only because of the cost of fuel with higher octane.

For me I have not raced with any other organization nor do I have aspirations to do so. I race because it is a hobby for me not a business nor is it a future career. I have no need for any other information that my $100 lap timer doesn't already give. If I did spend the $420 it would be for a GPS timer that I could use split times and use at any track, race event or track day.

Marc, thankfully we are in the Florida region where they do have great scorers and actually can count laps, not to be mistaken with the counters of the ballot during voting season. If the decision is made to go the AMB route maybe Henry will make a decision for himself and his own racers. I just won't race out of my home region or rent on the very few occasion that I might

I did make an observation this past Sunday at a local track day. There seemed to be more bikes in the Novice group than there were racers at the last race weekend. I rode a different bike than my race bike just to have some other riding experience. Of course this was on a 11 year old R1 that is no longer competitive in the Unlimited class.

Will buy if necessary but would also like the option to rent.

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on September 15, 2010, 11:27:50 AM
So a one time investment of $420 for a transponder that you will own, that can be used seemlessly with multiple race org's, that you can sell in the future and recover probably 1/2 your investment, and that will help streamline & improve CCS's registration process and scoring system, is all it will take (for those who apparently enter the least amount of race classes per season) to quit racing with CCS ever again?

Even if as an option, rental units will be available at a reasonable cost as well?

REALLY?

:err:

How does this streamline the registration process? I must have missed it.

Westhold "Rental Units" are currently provided to us at NO ADDITIONAL COST, since weather you have your own or not doesn't effect race entry fees. With the new digital systems, they're talking about a rental fee, which would be a cost on top of the current registration fee (no talk of reducing fees for owners so far). An extra $30? so we're talking close to $100 for the first race entry every weekend if you rented... If you bought your own, it would pay off after 15 CCS race weekends. 2.5 years. There's no incentive to agree to this change in Scoring. If you want to race, grin and bear it. tough cookies if you can't justify 3 race weekends worth of cash for a transponder. the way i look at it, i have to front $450 to even compete next year (or whenever). Then figure out how to scramble up the $210 for three races every weekend. now, if my race fees DIDN'T include a TRANSPONDER RENTAL FEE (because CCS wouldn't be leasing them all anymore, reduced operation costs) of $30 that's only $165 to race. $45 is my gas to the race and back. THAT'S INCENTIVE TO SHOW UP with your own transponder.

If rental for the AMB was included with current registration fees (like the westhold is now), there probably wouldn't be much fuss... One thing is pretty clear: We don't want increased race fees. that's what's driving away racers. if we're being charged more for the same thing, we want to know why.

If you're already racing other series... you already own one or if you're looking at other series it's a forgone conclusion. that aspect shouldn't even be being discussed.

this is stupid,  you guys sound like a bunch of cry babies! racing is a colossal waste of money and you guys are boo-hooing over a $400 transponder purchase? yeah it sucks but so does my entry fees, tires fees, race gas, travel gas, food, gear bill, hotel fees, bike maintanance fees, gate fees, camping fees, beer fees, engine rebuild fees, and other stuff i'm sure i'm forgetting. given all this, how big of an impact can $200-$450 for a transponder really have? we do this because we love it, not cuz its cheap.
  if you have to quit racing over $400, you cant afford to race.

Quote from: Sobottka on September 15, 2010, 01:20:20 PM
racing is a colossal waste of money

So are trackdays. probably even more so than racing...

sure racing is fun. that's why we do it... but at what point do you say, it's just not worth it?

...how big of an impact can $200-$450 for a transponder really have?

It really is dependent on one's own perspective. In my case about the cost of racing one weekend. Currently my cost of racing is about $500 finishing second and gaining contingency money keeps the cost down. No I don't race as many classes as you may or do I spend the amount of money that you do per weekend but I do it becuase I love it.

Will I stop racing? No. But it will at least in the beginning take away from revenues that the race organization would have received. I will probably skip a race weekend in order to be compliant to the new format.

I think the point here isn't whether the current racers will buy one, but will PROSPECTIVE racers do it. 

I've talked a friend into racing with us, and that was like talking the guy into pulling his own teeth out.  He had already run 20+ track days, and couldn't see the value in spending more money for less track time, spaced out over 2 days instead of one.  After I convinced him this is the most fun thing in the world, then I had to talk him into buying race bodywork, taking a school and paying for the license.  Not easy, and I'm actually really shocked that he went through with it.

Imagine introducing another $420.00 into the above equation.....

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 15, 2010, 01:01:57 PMHow does this streamline the registration process? I must have missed it.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I'll describe it again.

Currently when you go to registration part of the process is that you get issued a random transponder. The unique identifier number for that transponder is then written down on your registration forms (makes no difference if you pre or post enter). Then all those individual transponder numbers have to be manually entered into CCS's computerized scoring system relating to all the correct racers they were issued to (the possibility for typo errors with manually entering in all those numbers at every event is to be expected). When your finished racing for the event your transponders has to be turned back in to CCS before you leave, getting all the transponders turned in promptly after racing is completed for any event has always been an issue - not to mention those who forget to turn them in and end up in a huge arguement with CCS about it.

With everyone owning their transponder, its' unique ID code will be entered into CCS's scoring system at CCS's main office ONCE as that racers own personal number, then it shouldn't have to be entered in to the system ever again. No more messing with issuing transponders, constantly entering in all the unique ID numbers, or having the pain in the ass of getting everyone to turn in their transponders at the end of every event!

Another way to think of it...
The current Westhold system is NOT provided free of charge, the cost of the original system, program, program upgrades, replacement units, etc... do have a cost and are being paid for each and every weekend, as part of the race entry fee.
so, (This next part is all theory...as I have no real data, but I'd guess it's pretty realistic).
If you had a choice between:
A) - Race fee's increasing by $30 per entry (to cover upkeep on the old outdated, failing T&S system and additional manual scoring personnel for when it craps out...again).  Wait 45+ min for results to be posted, and maybe never see your lap times ever again (well that last part might still be good...)
or
B) - Race entry fee's don't increase or increase a small amount, say $5 per entry?  But you have to either do a 1 time purchase of a personal transponder, or rent one each weekend.  Get results & lap times in 1/2 the time or less, and have them for...years. and spend less time in registration?

To add to Mikes comments about registration... In the CRA, if you pre-register, you never even need to go stand in line at regestration if you pre-registered... you simply check the preliminary grids usually already posted to make sure you're in the races you registered (revised when registration closes for the day).

Quote from: Sobottka on September 15, 2010, 01:20:20 PM
this is stupid,  you guys sound like a bunch of cry babies! racing is a colossal waste of money and you guys are boo-hooing over a $400 transponder purchase? yeah it sucks but so does my entry fees, tires fees, race gas, travel gas, food, gear bill, hotel fees, bike maintanance fees, gate fees, camping fees, beer fees, engine rebuild fees, and other stuff i'm sure i'm forgetting. given all this, how big of an impact can $200-$450 for a transponder really have? we do this because we love it, not cuz its cheap.
  if you have to quit racing over $400, you cant afford to race.

yup...

Quote from: squirrel22 on September 15, 2010, 02:27:18 PM
Imagine introducing another $420.00 into the above equation.....

Or he rents one his first weekend or two for $50... find outs it really is that much better than trackdays, then $380 / $420, or $200 - $250 used... will be a very small price compared to race tires, time off work, crash damage repair, suit, helmet, boots, gloves, tire warmers, generator, food, fuel, wear and tear on truck & trailer and bike, etc...

And if he buys used instead of new, he can turn around and sell it for the same price, if not more...

yes racing is very expensive, i understand the cost of the current transponders are rolled into entry fees, i personally will buy an amb if required, but i would hope entry fees would be reduced by whatever amount we are currently being charged for the old ones, we should not be charged for the old system and still have to purchase our own transponder, CCS should be looking for new rules to help reduce costs of racing, let's ban race fuel, pump gas only, and quick shifters ban them too, why do we run them? because the guy next to you on the line has them, this would also eliminate some of the expensive engine builds, increase engine life, these would be huge savings, and lure the trackday rider with a basicly stock bike into racing and increase grid sizes

because that's what CCS wants in the end: Racers and Spectators (and the money associated with them). AND LOTS OF THEM.

as competitors, we want the exact same things CCS wants. This change feels very one sided so far.

Quote from: genosr1 on September 15, 2010, 06:09:29 PM
yes racing is very expensive, i understand the cost of the current transponders are rolled into entry fees, i personally will buy an amb if required, but i would hope entry fees would be reduced by whatever amount we are currently being charged for the old ones, we should not be charged for the old system and still have to purchase our own transponder,

dont get your hopes up. after seeing some of the grids this year we should be happy ccs is planning on holding races next year instead of closing shop.

Quote from: genosr1 on September 15, 2010, 06:09:29 PMCCS should be looking for new rules to help reduce costs of racing, let's ban race fuel, pump gas only, and quick shifters ban them too, why do we run them? because the guy next to you on the line has them, this would also eliminate some of the expensive engine builds, increase engine life, these would be huge savings, and lure the trackday rider with a basicly stock bike into racing and increase grid sizes

sounds like bicycle racing!  ::)
you dont need race gas or a quickshifter or a slipper clutch or a built motor. all you need as a track day guy is your minmally preped track day bike and and some basic skills to win amateur races. it happens all the time. none of the stuff you mentioned will overcome a skilled rider as a beginner

Quote from: Sobottka on September 15, 2010, 07:19:24 PM

dont get your hopes up. after seeing some of the grids this year we should be happy ccs is planning on holding races next year instead of closing shop.
sounds like bicycle racing!  ::)
you dont need race gas or a quickshifter or a slipper clutch or a built motor. all you need as a track day guy is your minmally preped track day bike and and some basic skills to win amateur races. it happens all the time. none of the stuff you mentioned will overcome a skilled rider as a beginner

great, now convince THEM of that...

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 15, 2010, 07:10:50 PM
because that's what CCS wants in the end: Racers and Spectators (and the money associated with them). AND LOTS OF THEM.

as competitors, we want the exact same things CCS wants. This change feels very one sided so far.

are you kidding? ccs doesnt care about spectators, this is club level racing, spectators are not part of this equation.
and ccs is not a democracy. as i said earlier be thankful they're racing next year.

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 15, 2010, 07:23:58 PM
great, now convince THEM of that...

dont need to, i did it myself

Quote from: Sobottka on September 15, 2010, 07:24:05 PM
are you kidding? ccs doesnt care about spectators, this is club level racing, spectators are not part of this equation.
and ccs is not a democracy. as i said earlier be thankful they're racing next year.

well they should. it's money coming in, period. much more than that sometimes... sponsors, future racers who don't even know it yet...

Quote from: Sobottka on September 15, 2010, 07:24:39 PM
dont need to, i did it myself

i don't think you quite understand. these kiddies who come from trackdays (like myself) are awfully hard to convince. they want to think "racing is glamorous, that the big dogs have xx equipment, so i should too (great for venders btw)". saying it can be done and showing them it can be done are often two very different things.

my amateur year i bought a 1 yr old gsxr600 put bodywork, shock/revalved forks, brake lines, a pc and exhaust and a 520 kit on it. stock everything else.  i had 1 spare rear wheel, 1 spare sprocket and that was it. i finished the season with about 50 podiums, 10 wins and 2 track and regional championships against very stiff am competition. no q/s, no engine build, no race gas, stock motor,  no fancy anything

well that's not what's happening in todays CCS. Keeping up with the jones is one of the problems with garnering bodies from trackdays. They make it expensive for themselves because they honestly believe it's what's required to race.

i dont do much more today as an expert ...in todays ccs.

how much do you drop on a weekend?

Quote from: genosr1 on September 15, 2010, 06:09:29 PM
yes racing is very expensive, i understand the cost of the current transponders are rolled into entry fees, i personally will buy an amb if required, but i would hope entry fees would be reduced by whatever amount we are currently being charged for the old ones, we should not be charged for the old system and still have to purchase our own transponder,

While I agree... But CCS is business, why would they lower fee's when they're already losing money with the fee's where they are? Now factor in inflation...
Realistically, looking at this from a business standpoint CCS is looking for ways reduce operating costs long term so they have a chance to survive this current economy now and we have a place to race in the future.  So My guess is the fee's are going to up no matter what, it's just how much they go up by.

And if CCS doesn't make it and goes away, yes maybe someone else will come in, and guess what - since most every other racing series in the upper midwest (CRA & WERA) uses the AMB system, you'll still have to buy or rent one.

KS... just an fyi - My 07 is Sobottka's old bike.  When I bought it is was a pretty basic race bike, body, suspension, sliders, PC3, exhaust, nothing more & he ran pretty good with it, when he actaully put gas in it. :biggrin:

getting rid of that lease on the Westhold units would probably be a huge financial burden lifter right there.

Quote from: Jason748 on September 15, 2010, 08:26:20 PM
KS... just an fyi - My 07 is Sobottka's old bike.  When I bought it is was a pretty basic race bike, body, suspension, sliders, PC3, exhaust, nothing more & he ran pretty good with it, when he actaully put gas in it. :biggrin:

i understand what he's saying, i'm trying to tell him it's not the same for everyone. it can be, but it's not.

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 15, 2010, 08:19:49 PM
how much do you drop on a weekend?

i refuse to do the math out of fear of reality! but i can say when i first preped my bike only spent about $4000 (over cost) and am surly in the bottom 50% of expert race budgets  

well, so far my entire 2010 track season has cost me:

$329 for tires
$250 for the licence clinic
$120 for 1 race practice
$150 for 2 July Races
$210 for 3 August races
$165 in transportation fuel
$50 in consumables
and about $50 in food.

1324 on race operations, there or there abouts.

as you can see, i don't race as much as some of you guys so i don't spend as much either. hell i've still got meat left on the second dunlop rear. i'll have the funds to do more next year, but i also want to keep costs as low as i can. we all do. well, us "racers that can't afford to race, but still we try" do...

I don't want CCS to turn into an Elitist club to race in.

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 15, 2010, 08:42:40 PM
I don't want CCS to turn into an Elitist club to race in.

Belive me... you're more in the majority than you know.

in defense of mingo and riders like him he has raced 2 or 3 races a weekend for 5 or 6 years now . he's crashed and crashed to where he is a broken old man . he rides more track days now than race weekends  but does about every ccs event.  in a race weekend he will either do one or 2 morning races . comes in last or second to it. he only reason is he likes the social time. he gets to be with he's friends for a few hrs once or so a month he also likes to ride fast for fun not caring where he finishes. then there's john he's was one of the fastest racers ever period. he's done isle of man several times he's raced assen, hockenhiem and just about every other track on the planet . now in his late 50's he rarely races . once or twice a year. i'm sure his son barrett has a transponder but doubt he or his other son justin (who rides occasionally) have one. so theirs 3 right the that have supported the   CLUB   for years that would probably quit.  now there's me. i only want to race daytona i have eveything to race except a renewed license an a good pair of tires. my body is junk, titanium hip, 12 more pins holding my pelvis together, torn rotator cup, torn meniscus and bulgeing disk in the neck. and a wife that would let me race under protest . do i really want to spend another $420 NOT to go any faster or be any safer?   no. so there's 4. so how are you going to bring former racers back into racing? how are you going to bring dirt bikers that ride for $20 a day into the sport.how are you going to get trackday guys to race where they ride all day for$180 and get a free steak lunch to boot.   if you want a CLUB where only lawyers and stock brokers can play then fine.  there's always a trackday somewhere for me.   the other thing i don't understand is are they not still manually scoring in FL region?   kinda wish Henry D would weigh in on this.   

Quote from: Jason748 on September 15, 2010, 08:23:23 PM
While I agree... But CCS is business, why would they lower fee's when they're already losing money with the fee's where they are? Now factor in inflation...
Realistically, looking at this from a business standpoint CCS is looking for ways reduce operating costs long term so they have a chance to survive this current economy now and we have a place to race in the future.  So My guess is the fee's are going to up no matter what, it's just how much they go up by.

And if CCS doesn't make it and goes away, yes maybe someone else will come in, and guess what - since most every other racing series in the upper midwest (CRA & WERA) uses the AMB system, you'll still have to buy or rent one.

I think if CCS did some research, they may find that racers would enter more classes if the races cost less.  If they could find the magic number where the revenue would actually increase, it may benefit everyone.  Also, CCS should provide a cheap race school; say $50 on top of the fee for the practice day that preceeds every CCS weekend.  The secondary benefit being that CCS themselves knows the curriculum, and whether each student REALLY knows the necessities for racing. 

Another thing to think about is that CCS holds a competitive advantage over WERA by providing the transponders.  I've checked the WERA results, and CCS usually has more people attending races.  If I needed to buy a transponder, I may just do the races that are close, and run the same amount of weekends, but split it up between both orgs, so I could reduce travel.  Playing devil's advocate here...

Quote from: Ducmarc on September 15, 2010, 11:07:53 PM
in defense of mingo and riders like him he has raced 2 or 3 races a weekend for 5 or 6 years now . he's crashed and crashed to where he is a broken old man . he rides more track days now than race weekends  but does about every ccs event.  in a race weekend he will either do one or 2 morning races . comes in last or second to it. he only reason is he likes the social time. he gets to be with he's friends for a few hrs once or so a month he also likes to ride fast for fun not caring where he finishes. then there's john he's was one of the fastest racers ever period. he's done isle of man several times he's raced assen, hockenhiem and just about every other track on the planet . now in his late 50's he rarely races . once or twice a year. i'm sure his son barrett has a transponder but doubt he or his other son justin (who rides occasionally) have one. so theirs 3 right the that have supported the   CLUB   for years that would probably quit.  now there's me. i only want to race daytona i have eveything to race except a renewed license an a good pair of tires. my body is junk, titanium hip, 12 more pins holding my pelvis together, torn rotator cup, torn meniscus and bulgeing disk in the neck. and a wife that would let me race under protest . do i really want to spend another $420 NOT to go any faster or be any safer?   no. so there's 4. so how are you going to bring former racers back into racing? how are you going to bring dirt bikers that ride for $20 a day into the sport.how are you going to get trackday guys to race where they ride all day for$180 and get a free steak lunch to boot.   if you want a CLUB where only lawyers and stock brokers can play then fine.  there's always a trackday somewhere for me.   the other thing i don't understand is are they not still manually scoring in FL region?   kinda wish Henry D would weigh in on this.   

rent one for 40 bucks. If you cant afford an extra 40 dollars do your family and everyone else a favor and dont go racing.

Quote from: benprobst on September 16, 2010, 09:03:26 AM
rent one for 40 bucks. If you cant afford an extra 40 dollars do your family and everyone else a favor and dont go racing.

I don't think it's affordability that everyone is discussing, but perceived value.  I'd buy an Ohlins TTX all day long for $420.00 but I'm not going to buy a set of sprockets for $420.00 EVER.  We will lose only a few current participants, but many prospective racers. 

I have an idea about this, that I'm going to email Kevin about.  Maybe he'll like it!

was it Dr. Costa that said "..if a racer want's to race there is nothing you can do to keep them from racing, if someone doesn't want to race, there is nothing you can do to make them do it" .. or something like that. The alternative would be down to 2 choices. 1) don't race 2) race with wera - that uses these transponders.

Quote from: CCS on September 09, 2010, 11:53:50 AM
Yes the Tranx 260 is compatible with all other AMB/My Laps systems in use by AMA Pro, WERA, CRA, CMRA, AHRMA.

We will not go back to manual scoring. (It is nearly impossible to find people who can do manual scoring especially with the small numbers and number plates you all love to use so that suggestion is unrealistic.) One benefit will be that we would no longer have to be so strict on your stylization of the numbers.

The average age of the Westhold transmitters we lease is 8 years old. The software has limitations that the AMB/My Laps does not have. We lease these transmitters from Westhold and when they were implemented your first entry fee was raised by $5 to cover the initial cost of implementation. Subsequent increases were due to higher insurance and track rental costs, not the scoring system.

Rental units will always be a part of the program, average rental fees are $40 to $60 per race depending on who owns the rental units. Owning your transponder gets you access to all your lap times and information, renting does not.

If we change to AMB/My Laps, it will not affect the cost of the event for CCS, just to simplify personnel issues (i.e. trying to find a good manual scorer.)  Purchase of the software and equipment right now will cost CCS the same as the Westhold lease does per event. One factor that brought about this request for input is the knowledge that the cost of the AMB/My Laps system will increase in 2011 but if we make the commitment now, it would save us all money in the long run.

At this time the RFID system is incapable of making line calls and until that flaw is fixed, it is not practical for race application. (Go back to manual scorers needed if you were to use that system.)

For those that didn't read this before or fail to understand what it says.  Switching to the AMB system will still cost CCS the same money that keeping the current system does.  So if we switch systems, why should it cost us less to race?  I don't think it should.  If the cost to CCS is the same, how can the cost to us be less?  In the long run it may cost CCS less, but it will take a bit to get there (not having to lease transponders and software from the current provider).  This is a long term solution for an ongoing problem.  Perhaps those complaining about the cost of the AMB transponders should complain to AMB.  They are the ones getting 10x the real value for their product.

QuotePurchase of the software and equipment right now will cost CCS the same as the Westhold lease does per event. One factor that brought about this request for input is the knowledge that the cost of the AMB/My Laps system will increase in 2011 but if we make the commitment now, it would save us all money in the long run.

This part makes me think the new system is cheaper.

Quote from: mattg on September 16, 2010, 11:39:17 AM
This part makes me think the new system is cheaper.

Yes, it's cheaper for CCS if they buy it in 2010 compared to 2011.

Quote from: Ducmarc on September 15, 2010, 11:07:53 PM
snip...
  now there's me. i only want to race daytona i have eveything to race except a renewed license an a good pair of tires. my body is junk, titanium hip, 12 more pins holding my pelvis together, torn rotator cup, torn meniscus and bulgeing disk in the neck. and a wife that would let me race under protest . do i really want to spend another $420 NOT to go any faster or be any safer?   no. so there's 4. so how are you going to bring former racers back into racing? how are you going to bring dirt bikers that ride for $20 a day into the sport.how are you going to get trackday guys to race where they ride all day for$180 and get a free steak lunch to boot.   if you want a CLUB where only lawyers and stock brokers can play then fine.  there's always a trackday somewhere for me.   the other thing i don't understand is are they not still manually scoring in FL region?   kinda wish Henry D would weigh in on this.   

So - if you hole your radiator and need to buy a new one will you also quit?  Cost to purchase woudl be about the same.  The radiator won't make you faster or safer- all it will do is allow you to get out on the track again.

Racers race.  That is all there is to it.

George

CCS wont be leasing the equipment from AMB. It's an outright BUY. That's how i understood it. What they said above, to me, means that for what the cost of leasing the Westholds is right now PER EVENT will be the cost SAVINGS per event (after the first use that is).

Given the cost of the AMB system, wrap your heads around how much money that is over a year of racing. It's damn near a foregone conclusion as to what CCS will do in regards to the switch...

George, i'm guessing if he holes his radiator, he'll be out for a weekend, as will most of us budget racers would given the same circumstances. This is what we're all considering for 2011. Given what we spend/budget currently for a season of racing, we're now forced to add $450 for next year. If you don't have room in your budget to fit in all your races with a new transponder buy, you're either forced to do less races, or less events. that's all there is to it. That puts less money in CCS's pocket, but given the cost savings of going to the AMB system, it shouldn't effect them in the long run too badly. There will just be less entries for the season opener. The following year (2012) you'll be right back to where you were 2 years prior, racing your events you want to race.

OK, what is the alternative?  Keep the current system that is 8 years old and is eventually going to fail, then pay more which will get absorbed by the racers anyway.  I bought my used AMB for $225.  The same price as a rear tire.....

Maybe they can rent them for $40 like metioned and after say 11 or so rentals CCS give you one. That would probally make it easier on everyone if we switched. It is a added cost but $40 over say 11 weekends will not seem like much when we are already spending alot to race anyway. I had to buy one this winter because I do a few races with wera. It nice to be able to go check your lap times after your race and not have to wait a week or 3 to see your times. Also it would be nice if CCS would post all the lap times for each race instead of just your fast lap.

Quote from: Rick Johnson 29 on September 16, 2010, 01:40:28 PM
Maybe they can rent them for $40 like metioned and after say 11 or so rentals CCS give you one. That would probally make it easier on everyone if we switched. It is a added cost but $40 over say 11 weekends will not seem like much when we are already spending alot to race anyway. I had to buy one this winter because I do a few races with wera. It nice to be able to go check your lap times after your race and not have to wait a week or 3 to see your times. Also it would be nice if CCS would post all the lap times for each race instead of just your fast lap.

The answer to the rent to buy question was already answered...it will not happen. 

I agree. Rent-to-Own would take 2 - 2.5 years to accomplish for most of us. better to just skip a weekend for the first year.

The system they'd buy is about $7000. if they doubled that price to spend $14,000 and whatever extra went to transponders... even at a 10% discount it would only get them 17 units...

OR

Have CCS buy a crap load of them, get a bulk discount, and sell them at the event or online. might even turn a profit from it. although, it would take considerable overhead to do so. might not work out.

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 16, 2010, 12:29:31 PM
George, i'm guessing if he holes his radiator, he'll be out for a weekend, .

That is not what he said.  His statement that there is always a trackday for him somewhere implies that that if he has to buy a transponder he is done racing.

That is fine with me.  I just want clarity so that we don't have to assume what is driving his comment.  It doesn't matter to me.  In my eyes it is just another part I need to race.  Be it new tires, suspension work, a new helmet or a transponder - it is up to me to determine what time and money I can afford to spend racing and allocate these resources accordingly.

George

well, it's just what he feels is important to him. some of us do it for enjoyment, some do it for the fun of competition, some do it as a business.

hell, even i can understand the value difference between doing laps with a Digital Transponder or with a GPS Lap Timer if you're doing this leisurely.

Most track day guys are not going to even try racing racing if you can't rent one as they balk at the price of getting their license. The mx guys I ride with won't even consider this sport because of the cost as mx is about 1/10th the cost. Racing is addictive so you have to figure out a way to get them in the door first. I think lower entry fees are a better way to get people involved. Its like selling raffle tickets its a lot easier to sell 10 tickets at $10 than one at $100. I do agree if $420 will keep you out than you should not be racing in the first place but if it doesn't make fees go down I still don't see the advantage of having one. I could give a shit about seeing my times on a web site.   

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 16, 2010, 04:31:12 PM\
hell, even i can understand the value difference between doing laps with a Digital Transponder or with a GPS Lap Timer if you're doing this leisurely.

I can help.

One is for scoring.  The other is not.  One will give you specific data point information.  The other is for scoring. 

For racing, you need a license.  Don't need one for a leisurely track day.  Most organizations already require the transmitter.  Didn't Trackaddix use the AMB transmitters?  Can't remember, but I believe so...And a $50 rental fee was required to use it to race, or it was optional for their track days if you wanted to get some lap times.

In fact, looks like they still use them...
http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1687388

Quote from: mx558 on September 16, 2010, 06:17:32 PMI think lower entry fees are a better way to get people involved.

Is it?

When CCS used to offer all the races you could race for $200 back in the dark ages, few people ever did it.  When racing was cheaper some time ago, it wasn't pulling the grids as it did from 1999 to 2004. 

One must consider the increase in the cost of bikes too, and their state of reliability now also. 

I remember John Ulrich putting it very well once:  "Racers race." 

There are a lot less expensive forms of racing.  In the end, what kind of racing do you want to do?

I've already got an AMB transponder, so yes I'm in favor.  Only comment I would like to make is regarding the placement.  Other org I race with used to mandate the transponder be mounted on the tail where it was easily subject to crash damage.  They've since moved the location to the forks between the tripples where it is better protected.  And to anyone questioning the durability of the AMB mine has some pretty good rash on it, is over 5 years old, and still works perfectly.

Quote from: Super Dave on September 16, 2010, 08:00:13 PM
I can help.

One is for scoring.  The other is not.  One will give you specific data point information.  The other is for scoring.  

For racing, you need a license.  Don't need one for a leisurely track day.  Most organizations already require the transmitter.  Didn't Trackaddix use the AMB transmitters?  Can't remember, but I believe so...And a $50 rental fee was required to use it to race, or it was optional for their track days if you wanted to get some lap times.

In fact, looks like they still use them...
http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1687388

perhaps i worded it wrong. I understand the difference... a GPS lap timer, will give you the same data anywhere you go that a transponder can only give you on one specific weekend. I don't believe BFR/MotoVid even have their timing system active (if they even have one) during their events. you have to rely on a lap timer of some sorts. and for $450 a GPS timer is going to tell you a hell of a lot more than the CCS AMB timer ever will.

I guess I'm not one that likes change. I'm not broke I can afford one I'm
sorry I came off bitter it just seemed like one more cost of racing. If I stick to my plan.  Of a few races a year then I would rent. If I raced every weekend than. It makes sense to buy. I feel better today ben fox sent my crank back it looks great polished like chrome I'm ready for the high bank

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 16, 2010, 08:43:15 PM
perhaps i worded it wrong. I understand the difference... a GPS lap timer, will give you the same data anywhere you go that a transponder can only give you on one specific weekend. I don't believe BFR/MotoVid even have their timing system active (if they even have one) during their events. you have to rely on a lap timer of some sorts. and for $450 a GPS timer is going to tell you a hell of a lot more than the CCS AMB timer ever will.

Why would Motovid have a timing system?  They aren't a racing organization.  Blackhawk has a loop for all the other organizations to hook into, that's it.  If they wanted to run an event with scoring, they'd need to rent, buy, or borrow a system for scoring.   

I have to say this again:  any of the transmitter systems are for scoring.  You don't need that for track days. 

So, for the cost of the GPS timer, it will still never score an event.  If one is a competitor, that is really the real deal.  Or go back to trying to find good hand scorers and subjective speculation at the line. 

It's my point of view, and it seems as though all racing organizations, and even some athletic events, are or have gone this route. 


Eventually, water cooling became quite popular in spite of the extra cost and maintenance...

Ei yi yi... i give up.

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 16, 2010, 08:43:15 PM
perhaps i worded it wrong. I understand the difference... a GPS lap timer, will give you the same data anywhere you go that a transponder can only give you on one specific weekend. I don't believe BFR/MotoVid even have their timing system active (if they even have one) during their events. you have to rely on a lap timer of some sorts. and for $450 a GPS timer is going to tell you a hell of a lot more than the CCS AMB timer ever will.

Because the laptimer is for your personal use, and the AMB system is developed to cull data from multiple bikes, sort that data, and then put it into a readable format to do timing and scoring.

So while the AMB system will not tell you more than your personal data acquisition solution, they are like comparing apples and oranges as they have different functions.

Let's face it, if one can't afford to rent or purchase a transponder from the racing organization, and one is concerned entry fees are too high, that individual needs to assess whether they are cut out for the sport. Those would be fixed costs for the course of the season, and thus one would be able to budget for them well before the season started.

Demand stimulus money from obama to help stimulate economic growth in the racing community.
This could work.
Hurry before he gets the boot.

I can understand the argument for the AMB transponder but I also see the argument to make do with what we have. It will be up to the business owner(CCS) to make the decisions which best represent the needs and wants of the members.

In response to the argument pro AMB transponder; We(the racers in club racing), liken ourselves, in this CCS club aspire to be professional as AMA. Yet even the AMA with a 0.000 finish reverts back to manual scoring(pictures) and not timing/scoring to determine a winner. What we have is not perfect by any means but I feel it works for what we need. The general feeling of the opposing thoughts is that why garner more cost in racing when there is already a deficit in participation.

It has been difficult for me to get my freinds to even look at racing even though many have respective bikes and gear. The general thought is that it costs too much to go fast. I hope to lead by example by having a limited budget($500 per weekend) and still have as much track time as a track day-even more.

That occasional racer such as Mingo will most likely not race and stick with the track days. The track day rider will most likely stick with track days.

Your argument though plausable make it sound like you will race no matter what the cost. In that case raise the registration fees to make up for the lost participation in grids from the early 2000's.

Quote from: spyderchick on September 17, 2010, 09:29:58 AM
Because the laptimer is for your personal use, and the AMB system is developed to cull data from multiple bikes, sort that data, and then put it into a readable format to do timing and scoring.

So while the AMB system will not tell you more than your personal data acquisition solution, they are like comparing apples and oranges as they have different functions.

Let's face it, if one can't afford to rent or purchase a transponder from the racing organization, and one is concerned entry fees are too high, that individual needs to assess whether they are cut out for the sport. Those would be fixed costs for the course of the season, and thus one would be able to budget for them well before the season started.

so you're saying if we have to ditch an event or two to buy this transponder, we should just not compete at all, because if you can't do all the events, you shouldn't even bother to race at all.

that's the elitist attitude i was talking about. Sorry Alexa, i just cannot disagree with you more on the issue of part time competitors.

some of us just have a limited budget month to month to race. we just have to deal with that. we are the poor racers who show up anyway. we may not be able to afford the premiere season like some of you, but at least we put forth our best effort to ride.

Quote from: Knightslugger on September 17, 2010, 01:30:54 PM
so you're saying if we have to ditch an event or two to buy this transponder, we should just not compete at all, because if you can't do all the events, you shouldn't even bother to race at all.

:wtf: if you have to skip 1-2 events to buy a $200 used transponder YOU CANT AFFORD TO RACE!
if you arnt willing to seek out and purchase a $200 used transponder YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO RACE!

Quote from: Sobottka on September 17, 2010, 02:08:45 PM

:wtf: if you have to skip 1-2 events to buy a $200 used transponder YOU CANT AFFORD TO RACE!
if you arnt willing to seek out and purchase a $200 used transponder YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO RACE!

durr, that's why you'd skip 1 - 2 events. After that we can make the third and fourth and fifth and sixth events though.

or would you rather us not show up at all so you can race by yourself?

a $160 AMB compliant transponder is going to hard to come by en masse. you're more likely looking in the $300 range.

Quote from: Sobottka on September 17, 2010, 02:08:45 PM

:wtf: if you have to skip 1-2 events to buy a $200 used transponder YOU CANT AFFORD TO RACE!
if you arnt willing to seek out and purchase a $200 used transponder YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO RACE!

this my friend is reality, you either get it  .....or you dont get it .....durrr 

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

take it as "i could care less"
this sport isnt for everyone and if you cant afford to rent or buy a transponder this sport aint for you

We COULD eventually buy a transponder, but it would HAVE to come at the cost of an event or at least a few races early on, or make those ragged out Dunlops last a few more races. I'm sure you can just make money appear, but a lot of us haven't gotten so much as a 25 cent raise in the last 3 years.

but what do you care.

I just realized you are the same guy that hedged for 11 pages on buying a new lid...
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,23993.0.html

if it took you THAT long to sway towards buying protective gear....  :banghead:

ultimately i think what most are saying is if your budget is THAT tight, maybe taking a little time off would be a good thing for you.  you'll be missed, and then again welcomed back when times are better.
 

Quote from: tstruyk on September 17, 2010, 03:34:25 PM
I just realized you are the same guy that hedged for 11 pages on buying a new lid...
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,23993.0.html

if it took you THAT long to sway towards buying protective gear....  :banghead:

Situations change. I didn't buy anything in the end.

Quoteultimately i think what most are saying is if your budget is THAT tight, maybe taking a little time off would be a good thing for you.  you'll be missed, and then again welcomed back when times are better.

That's not what Sobattka, Spyderchick and some others are saying at all. they're saying if i have to take some time off at the beginning of the season in order to afford both the transponder and the rest of the season, i shouldn't even bother showing up. very disappointing.

I really hope his opinion on the matter is not the majority's. because then I'm REALLY in the wrong club.

sorry slugger if thats what you take from my comments. tstruyk summed up my thoughts with much more diplomacy. maybe you should read it again cuz this is i am trying to get through to you.

Quote from: tstruyk on September 17, 2010, 03:34:25 PM


ultimately i think what most are saying is if your budget is THAT tight, maybe taking a little time off would be a good thing for you.  you'll be missed, and then again welcomed back when times are better.
 

I guess I don't understand what the huge deal is? If you want to race, you will figure out how to do it. If you miss a race or two to pay for it, great. run the rest of the season or whatever you can do.

I ran a round with AHRMA and I had to rent a transponder from them. Fine, I wanted to race with them so I HAD to do it.

I hope they do switch to at least get a more robust current system . If I remember correctly, isn't the current system based on DOS?

Also since I don't own a transponder, I'll have to buy one.

Knightslugger ..........

Do you also post on here under the name RedRiderUp?

no, i do not.

Quote from: Ducmarc on September 16, 2010, 09:06:02 PM
I guess I'm not one that likes change. I'm not broke I can afford one I'm
sorry I came off bitter it just seemed like one more cost of racing. If I stick to my plan.  Of a few races a year then I would rent. If I raced every weekend than. It makes sense to buy. I feel better today ben fox sent my crank back it looks great polished like chrome I'm ready for the high bank

If you can afford to have Fox polish your crank all your whining about being broke is crap.

I'm sorry but a lightened and polshed crank is an extravagance.  Ben did my 1000SS crank so I know what it cost.  Quit your bitching about being poor or stop spending money and completely unnecessary items and race.

George

I thought crank polishing was free ?

the crank had been improperly balenced by someone else. I only had ben rebalence it. And he polished it then. I also don't think I ever said I was. Broke.   Ben is a good guy and has helped me a lot over the years and I figured giving him a plug would incriminate me but if it helps his business fine

Quote from: mx558 on September 18, 2010, 12:09:53 PMI thought crank polishing was free ?

Not if you had to pay for a date 1st!  :lmao:

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on September 18, 2010, 10:29:15 PM
Not if you had to pay for a date 1st!  :lmao:

We know which district you have been frequenting.

Most commentary i think i've ever seen on this board....

I'm enjoying the many points of view so let me see if I can sum up a couple positiions

1) it's $420...not the end of the world....
2) We are having enough trouble filling grids, don't stick an additional barrier to entry into the mix right now
3) Whatever.....


Joking aside a bit I can see both points, I'm agnostic in the end to the decision (I voted yes for the record as I hate trying to remember to turn in the transponder) .  Personally in the end I question whether this is the right year to make the change or not given the other issues we as a group are facing, but I can see some of the reasons why it would make sense from kevin's posts now rather than later.  I understand where slugger is coming from on the cost issue, we as a group can't really afford to put any more racers out for an event or 2 let alone lose more of them permenantly for any reason.  So how can you accomplish both or at least what's the rational in the end for the decision that gets made, and I don't expect kevin to post up CCS financials or any such just maybe the basics so we the community can at least follow the overall reasoning - can't make everyone happy....

i know quite a few people who only do several rounds each year, and choose ccs over wera simply to save a few hundred on a transponder. Could drive people to explore other options. leave well enough alone.

 :lmao: Explore other options as in what - Not racing?  Most motorcycle race orgs are using the AMB system or similar and either requires you to have your own or rent one...

Me personally - after seeing maybe 1/2 of the problems CCS is constantly having with the current system... I will NOT be racing with CCS until they make the change to a more reliable system, perferably the AMB system they're looking at.    :ass:

I'm sorry if I missed it but don't have time to read all eleven pages, if we are going to the amb system and are required to buy a transponder can't the almighty CCS work out a deal with amb so we don't have to buy them for list price. With that many people buying them you think we could get them at a reduced rate.

Once peeps buy that transponder, with there be any brand loyalty? Let's see, drive 300 miles to a CCS race or race the local WERA race? Many CCS racers don't race WERA because of the transponder purchase / rental costs. Seems like WERA is going to get the better of this bargain.

Quote from: vnvbandit on September 22, 2010, 01:20:32 PM
Once peeps buy that transponder, with there be any brand loyalty? Let's see, drive 300 miles to a CCS race or race the local WERA race? Many CCS racers don't race WERA because of the transponder purchase / rental costs. Seems like WERA is going to get the better of this bargain.

So you spend how much in fuel to avoid the rental fee for a transponder with WERA? 

Quote from: vale46 on September 22, 2010, 11:58:38 AM
I'm sorry if I missed it but don't have time to read all eleven pages, if we are going to the amb system and are required to buy a transponder can't the almighty CCS work out a deal with amb so we don't have to buy them for list price. With that many people buying them you think we could get them at a reduced rate.

Yes - Keven wrote the following:

Quote from: CCS on September 13, 2010, 11:40:19 AM
If we go to the personal transponder system, the initial 30 to 45 days would have a discount on the units, probably in the $30 to $40 range, I haven't got that down exactly yet since we have not committed to changing systems.

Quote from: MACOP1104 on September 22, 2010, 01:48:08 PM
So you spend how much in fuel to avoid the rental fee for a transponder with WERA? 

Nope, I race CCS cause I want to.   :boink:

Not tempted to race WERA cause I don't want to ...............  :spank:

Quote from: vnvbandit on September 22, 2010, 01:20:32 PM
Once peeps buy that transponder, with there be any brand loyalty? Let's see, drive 300 miles to a CCS race or race the local WERA race? Many CCS racers don't race WERA because of the transponder purchase / rental costs. Seems like WERA is going to get the better of this bargain.

really? a $40 transponder rental fee stops people from racing wera? ...this i seriously doubt.

Quote from: Sobottka on September 22, 2010, 03:59:11 PM
really? a $40 transponder rental fee stops people from racing wera? ...this i seriously doubt.

I hear many guys say they went the CCS route at the beginning of their racing to cut costs. Been here a while, so it will not stop me, new comers??? I went CCS because my son races CCS and Daytona. If he was racing WERA, then I would have started there.

I race whichever organization is at VIR, CMP, or Roebling because those are the closest tracks to me.  For 2011,  I'll probably do all the CCS regional races and then the WERA races at CMP and VIR.  Nothing for certain until the 2011 schedules come out.

will I get my $10 back on my little man bag I bought this year?

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccsracing.us%2Fshop%2Fpouch%2Fpouch.gif&hash=cf1087f97f752f4db03928577990534346e5f1c8)


:lmao:

Quote from: mattg on September 24, 2010, 05:19:11 PM
will I get my $10 back on my little man bag I bought this year?

You can put your cell phone in there now!  :biggrin:

Quote from: mattg on September 24, 2010, 05:19:11 PM
will I get my $10 back on my little man bag I bought this year?

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccsracing.us%2Fshop%2Fpouch%2Fpouch.gif&hash=cf1087f97f752f4db03928577990534346e5f1c8)


:lmao:

You can start smoking and put your cigs there!

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on September 25, 2010, 10:32:16 AM
You can put your cell phone in there now!  :biggrin:

Great, how I have to watch out for texters on the track too.

Hangup and race!   :spank:

No, why would I want to drop another $400 in a race program. Remember there was a day when we didn't use transmitters and everything worked out. If i'm forced to buy one the money will just come out of my race entry fee budget.

MyLaps seems to be a much better system than the MyRacingBio is, with regards to lost races, misplaced racers, and time to post after race.  The money it costs to get an AMB is worth the reliable lap times for me and my competitors.

Quote from: Jason748 on September 22, 2010, 11:42:52 AM
:lmao: Explore other options as in what - Not racing?  Most motorcycle race orgs are using the AMB system or similar and either requires you to have your own or rent one...

as in now there's nothing keeping them at ccs, as opposed to racing with Wera.  Duh.

Quote from: MrMeat on September 28, 2010, 07:08:30 AM
MyLaps seems to be a much better system than the MyRacingBio is, with regards to lost races, misplaced racers, and time to post after race.  The money it costs to get an AMB is worth the reliable lap times for me and my competitors.

I must agree that Mylaps is probably better based on all of the comments of actual use. Consider that Myracingbio is a free to the racer entity(Thanks Russel Brown). Certainly the deficits is not caused by what Russell has done but more the interface of the information provided by CCS and the Myracingbio system.

The only official information is provided by CCS as far as finishing order. The only official lap time is provided by CCS. For me I rely on my own lap times that I record and not any other time. I find the CCS times are a  nice to know kinda thing but I don't count on it for development of my bike or Me as a rider.

Does this have anything to do with the fact that AHRMA is using AMB and the combined event? I can't afford to by a transponder, much less pay a rental fee for one. The Westhold system is leased as I understand it, so why not lease the new system instead and keep doing things as we have been? If I have to buy one or even rent one, in addition to paying a licensing fee, a gate fee per person that I bring with me (My family) and entry fees, then I would suggest that those who but get their first race entry for each event be set at the same price as additional races for that event. Then for those who cannot buy the system and need to rent a transponder, keep their entry fee for the first race of an event at the same price that it is now. If this is truly a cost saving measure, then carry that cost savings over into the entry fees of those who are actually buying the transponders. I would assume that a portion of our entry fees have been used to pay for the lease of the Westhold system already, so there really should be no need for a rental fee for the new units, as the money needed to pay for the rental Westhold units could be now applied to the AMB system. Let those who purchase the units have a discount from the entry fee.

A scoring system of some sort is something that CCS needs to keep doing business. I do not feel it appropriate to charge the racer for this however. It is the same as taking your car to be worked on and then being forced to buy the tools that are used to fix your car, in addition to the the labor and the parts used.

My vote is to either stick with the current system, or for CCS to purchase the new system and then as they sell units to the racers, give them a discount for their entry fees. Making it cost more to race is not going to help increase the grids at all. Grids were down this year due to money and the economy. If you make it cost an additional 420 dollars for racers to even get out there, it will be the last year that the organization will be in business. This is really the worst possible time to propose this kind of an expense.

Just my 2 cents.

Quote from: Doctor on September 28, 2010, 03:01:47 PMI can't afford to by a transponder, much less pay a rental fee for one...
A scoring system of some sort is something that CCS needs to keep doing business. I do not feel it appropriate to charge the racer for this however. It is the same as taking your car to be worked on and then being forced to buy the tools that are used to fix your car, in addition to the the labor and the parts used.

Well, first off, shop labor includes costs of shop tools. 

Next, when you've been paying entry fees (this was covered earlier) we've been paying an extra $5 or something for the system since around 2001. 

That is kind of my point though Dave, keep that 5 bucks in the fees and switch units, that is fine. But charging the same entry fees and then charging for the equipment in addition is not cool.

As for my analogy, I beg to differ, as I had 100 thousand into my tools when I was an ASE Master Tech. I had to buy the tools myself in order to fix the customer's car. I couldn't go to the customer and say "Hey, I need you to buy a 1 7/8 inch wrench so that I can fix your car." If I didn't have what I needed to take care of the customer's needs, then I had to buy the tool myself.

We, the racers, are the customers. We pay to race. We pay to get credentialed, and we pay to enter the facility. Why should we have to buy the tools that CCS needs in order to take care of the customer? CCS needs more customers as well as customers that are able to partake in more races in a given weekend. If the customer is forced to buy the tools that CCS needs to complete the job, then there will be fewer customers, racing fewer races.

My question about Westhold is- This is a leased system. If it isn't working right, is it not Westhold's responsibility to it's customer (CCS) to make them work right or replace them with new units? Any equipment leasing I have ever seen did come with customer support and tech support for the leased equipment. Am I missing something?

The easy answer, it seems to me, is for CCS to go ahead and lease the AMB system, keep fees the same, and handle distribution and retrieval the same way.

Quote from: Doctor on September 28, 2010, 05:38:20 PM
That is kind of my point though Dave, keep that 5 bucks in the fees and switch units, that is fine. But charging the same entry fees and then charging for the equipment in addition is not cool.

I can only say what it is after renting tracks myself...  Insurance and track rentals are not static.  The reality is that fees will go up at some point.  If CCS has to make a decision to not make it like almost all organizations out there that individuals are responsible for their own transmitters, and even some have them already, the fees will go up.

Quote from: Doctor on September 28, 2010, 05:38:20 PM
As for my analogy, I beg to differ, as I had 100 thousand into my tools when I was an ASE Master Tech. I had to buy the tools myself in order to fix the customer's car. I couldn't go to the customer and say "Hey, I need you to buy a 1 7/8 inch wrench so that I can fix your car." If I didn't have what I needed to take care of the customer's needs, then I had to buy the tool myself.

True, but your tools allow you to meet flat rate, or exceed it.  But if you're a big shop and you need an NGS or some other kind of diagnostic equipment or special tool, that's not something even an HD mechanic is going to be able to afford, and that where shop labor rates come from.  After all, as we all know, the mechanic doesn't take in all of the money from the rate the shop has to charge to stay in business...not to mention lights, insurance for liability for mechanic mistakes, water, heat...

Quote from: Doctor on September 28, 2010, 05:38:20 PM
We, the racers, are the customers. We pay to race. We pay to get credentialed, and we pay to enter the facility. Why should we have to buy the tools that CCS needs in order to take care of the customer? CCS needs more customers as well as customers that are able to partake in more races in a given weekend. If the customer is forced to buy the tools that CCS needs to complete the job, then there will be fewer customers, racing fewer races.

It's not any different than before.  Entry fees have always been used to rent tracks, pay for insurance, pay for workers, and pay for scoring. 

Over time, racing has continued to get more and more and more and more and more expensive.  It has grown and receeded for various reasons.  It will never be cheap.  It's the easiest way to make a small fortune out of a large one. 

If owning an AMB transmitter were an honest reason for fewer racers, then CRA, AHRMA, WERA, and others should have seen a decline when they mandated the use of them compared to CCS's decision to place the cost of the dbCom thing in the fees.

Still, even if entry fees had to go up another 10 bucks to do it, it would be much better to use them and handle distribution and retrieval the same than it would be to rent them for the better part of an entry fee for a second race, or to sell them for the price of a set of tires and a can of fuel. I understand that there is an overhead for CCS, however, the real problem being faced right now is grid size, not scoring. Adding an extra expense for the racers of this magnitude is not going to increase grids.

Now Dave, on your last point, that would be a viable comparison, if the racers were having to do that during the worst recession that they have ever seen in their lifetime, however that was indeed not the case, so not really an apples to apples discussion. All of the aforementioned sanctioning bodies are also seeing a decline in grid size.

What I am getting at is that right now, CCS needs to find a way to make more money, essentially, getting more bikes lining up. Converting to a much more expensive timing system is really not a way of doing that. Not saying it would be a bad thing to do, just that right now it is really kind of silly to look at that until the grids get back up to where they were.

Lets focus on getting more guys to come racing instead. Once we get the numbers back up and people are actually eligible for contingency money again with large enough grids, then lets look at the new timing system.

If there are no bucks, then there is no Buck Rogers. (The kids won't get that one) :)

Was a decision ever made by CCS? A question is on the license application. I would think that it would only be fair to the racers if CCS has come up with a decision, either for or against before a racer commits to spending his money on a 2011 license.

Count on it.  If it doesn't happen take your SO for a romantic evening somewhere. 

kevin sent an email to that question back to me that not until 2012 for sure would a change be made.
tim

Sweet! Thanks.

Not having one is the only thing that has kept me from racing some WERA events over the past (3) years.  If I had had one, I most definitely would have raced some WERA events, because they have a lot of them closer to my house, thus limiting my CCS race entries. 

When I made the transition from a trackday rider to a racer, the expense of having to buy a transponder is the main reason I picked CCS.  How many others made the same decision?  From a business prospective, CCS would lose that advantage over WERA and thus probably lose a lot of NEW business.  Does that make sense in today's environment? 

But then again, does this poll really matter??? 

In the past when there was a risk that multiple race org's could be running different transponders I'll admit I wouldn't have been thrilled about buying a transponder that potentially wouldn't be used anywhere else. But that's not the case now, this would be the common transponder used by multiple org's, so selling it after your done racing wouldn't be an issue - it's more like you borrowed it for several years at a minimal cost once you've sold it.

Quote from: PlayHard on November 06, 2010, 04:17:18 PM.....the expense of having to buy a transponder is the main reason I picked CCS......I most definitely would have raced some WERA events, because they have a lot of them closer to my house, thus limiting my CCS race entries.

I have alot of trouble with that type of reasoning because technically you would have already paid for a transponder (probably multiple times) with just the extra transportation costs you've already spent to attend CCS races instead of the closer WERA ones. Using a fuel cost of $3.00 per gallon and a tow vehicle getting 12 MPG at 70 MPH, it would only take 6 events that were an extra 2 hours further away to come up with the entire $420 cost of a new transponder - that's easily achieved in just one race season.

Here's the math:
$420 divided by $3 per gallon of fuel equals 140 gallons of gas
140 gallons multiplied by 12 MPG equals 1680 miles
1680 miles divide by 70 MPH equals 24 hours of driving (round trip)
24 hours divided by 2 equals 12 hours of driving one way
(and an equal 12 hours returning)
12 hours divided by 6 events equals 2 hours of extra driving each way per event

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on November 06, 2010, 10:40:28 PM
Here's the math:...

Yeah, but you're expecting rational though from some on this.  You can't do that, Mike!  LOL!

Quote from: Super Dave on November 06, 2010, 11:14:26 PM
Yeah, but you're expecting rational though from some on this.  You can't do that, Mike!  LOL!

Kind of like using 2 gallons of gas to drive across town to buy 20 gallons of gas at 20 cents a gallon cheaper than what it's being sold for where ever your at currently, the 2 gallons to get there and back cost $6 and the 'savings' was only $4 - so the fuel consumption alone cost you $2 extra to get that great 'deal'! That doesn't even begin to get into actual costs per mile driven - Hell even the IRS let's me write off 50+ cents per mile driven in my own personal vehicles when business related (to cover vehicle depreciation, consumables like tires / brakes / oil, etc).

That stuff cracks me up!  :banghead:  ::)  :biggrin:

Let me try the common sense game.

Prospective new racer looks at 2 different orgs, he's not sure how long he's going to stick with it, closer org says he needs to buy $420 piece of equipment to race, farther org says he can just borrow it. Mike your logic says that as long as his transport gets 12 mpg (mine gets 22, some of us run on a shorter shoestring) that he can pay off the transponder in just 6 events but he's not sure he's going to stick with it that long. Fast forward 3 years and what do you know he's still doing it, with your perfect hindsight he looks back and wishes that he'd just bought the transponder but now he's invested in CCS so let's give him another :kicknuts:

I've said it in this thread before and I'll say it again, right now Kevin is in a world of hurt (as is most of the racing world) and we've seen it in the schedule changes mid stream this season. As much as I want to believe that CCS will always be there when I want to go play the reality is that Kevin can only lose money for so long before this playground gets closed. You say that if I want to quit I can just sell the transponder. Looking at just the Midwest there were almost 300 riders that turned a wheel this season. If 2/3 of those riders were to try to sell their transponders because CCS closed the Midwest series, just how much demand do you think there would be for those 200 units. Yes the move to AMB is logical and really a no brainer to the long term serious racer (just for the record I like the idea, just not right now) but it's time to face reality, if CCS doesn't recruit some new blood next year the Midwest folks are not going to need a transponder. Give it a year to see how things go in 2011 and then make a decision, sounds like Kevin has made a wise one.

Oh yeah, the cheap fuel game, I usually use my vehicles to get across town when I need to buy such and such, whenever I go any distance from home I look at the prices at every station along the way and on the way home stop at the station that, while $6 in fuel away from my house, has the fuel that costs me $4 less. I needed to make the trip anyway and I got the cheap fuel too (BTW, when I make those trips I always take the vehicle with the least fuel so I can maximize the savings, to quote Dave "rational thought").

Woah, I'm getting dizzy here, time to quit.

Quote from: HAWK on November 07, 2010, 10:53:37 AM
farther org says he can just borrow it...

Wait, but who does that?  CCS needed to increase its entry fees to pay for the system and upkeep.  No borrowing there...

Come on Dave, you're better than that, here, I'll help you out with a link to the fees page for the other org that was mentioned about 5 posts back.

http://maps.wera.com/fees/?x=1098

Granted, CCS has included the current "borrowed" transponder in the fee structure but it sure feels like borrowing when they hand me a transponder and I hand it back at the end of the weekend. The point made several posts back is that the transponder was a selling point to a new racer, just the people we need right now.

Quote from: HAWK on November 07, 2010, 03:12:29 PMThe point made several posts back is that the transponder was a selling point to a new racer, just the people we need right now.

As an observation, the trend seems to be that those who are (or potentially could be) spending the least money racing with CCS are the ones complaining the most about an investment that is equal to the averaged cost that many racers easily spend to participate in just one event (factoring in all costs like travel, lodging, lost wages, race fuel, tires, etc.).

If just the cost of buying a transponder is how close anyone is to not being able to race, then racings probably not for them. And beyond that if they can't even afford the rental cost for a transponder then racing is definately not for them! (at least from a financial aspect, their obviously not in a financial position to be racing - "especially in this economy")

GSXR RACER MIKE,  you obviously didn't get my point and instead decided to belittle me.  Hope that made you feel like you accomplished something.  I do not have a lot of money, I hold an average job make an average wage and racing has been a struggle.  My first year was particularly hard with having to buy everything necessary to go racing.  My point was that  not having to buy a transponder that first year was MY deciding factor to race CCS instead of WERA.  My first year, like a lot of peoples, was a testing the water type year whereas I didn't travel far, raced the races closest to my house, and made the decision to stick with it or go back to trackdays.  My 2nd. year I expanded and traveled, staying with CCS because that is where I started.  Having just finished my 3rd year, racing the last (2) complete southeast seasons, I have streamlined my expenses while remaining very competitive.  Utilizing your analogy, "If just the cost of buying a transponder is how close anyone is to not being able to race, then racing probably not for them", then I should have never started racing and thus CCS would have lost a very valuable customer as for I now make every southeast race and preregister for 3 to 5 races every weekend.   Could I afford a transponder now that I have everything else needed, absolutely.   

So "SUPER DAVE", if that is not rational thinking on my part, so be it.  It worked just fine for me, I'm still racing!!!   

Mike, you are absolutely right, from an economic standpoint I should not be racing. So I guess rather than find a way to scrape together a minimal season next year I will instead find a less expensive way to spend my weekends.

My remarks were a general observation and not aimed at any specific person(s), certainly not intended to 'belittle' anyone - it was a simple twist on the general reality that those who expect the most are often times the ones who contribute the least (financially) toward supporting whatever cause.

Paul, you make too much sense, hahaha. I am with your thinking and yes although I do not spend a lot of money I am always there for the past 7 years. I do fairly well as for finishing results and many times collect contingency to help with the cost of racing.

Mark, from what I have read of your posts in the past we play pretty much the same way. I spend more on entry fees than I do on tires and squeeze the rest of my racing budget pretty hard. That said I will restate my position that the switch to AMB makes sense, but for those hard of hearing, NOT RIGHT NOW. A position that Kevin seems to agree with for now.

I will be mortified if we go to the AMB for next season, just having sold my unit to the endurance team (2/3) - oh but wait, we're disbanding so I can get that unit back.... We're selling an 05 R6 ex AMA ss bike.  It's been like the proverbial Swiss clock all season in spite of George's multiple crashes!!

as much as the added cost would suck, it would be nice to have a reliable source of laptimes that don't spell or list your name 10 different ways so your results are never in one place...  and that's IF the site it up and running and IF the results were properly posted, if at all. 

...

Russ,
Thank You for your efforts these past couple years, some of us appreciate your work. Furthermore some of us appreciate the work of your predecessor as well.

Quote from: Russell2566 on November 16, 2010, 12:15:03 PM
...

Yes, thanks for what you did.  I can understand what you were trying to do for the racers.  I'm sure there are many of us that appreciated your hard work.

Quote from: Greeny on November 15, 2010, 08:22:08 PM
as much as the added cost would suck, it would be nice to have a reliable source of laptimes that don't spell or list your name 10 different ways so your results are never in one place...  and that's IF the site it up and running and IF the results were properly posted, if at all.  

For $399 you can get all that and more in a GPS. You get not only lap times but you also get split times, projected best lap, acceleration points, braking points, corner speed, and speed anywhere else on your track. All this with the ability to download to your computer for graphs.

Oh yeah, Thanks Russ

thank you Russ, your efforts ARE much appreciated.

Quote from: majicMARKer on November 16, 2010, 01:13:54 PM
For $399 you can get all that and more in a GPS. You get not only lap times but you also get split times, projected best lap, acceleration points, braking points, corner speed, and speed anywhere else on your track. All this with the ability to download to your computer for graphs.

i know, i have one :D  it's just nice to see what your competition is doing out there.  it's also nice to have a history of your past seasons nicely organized, or the past seasons of others.  or how about a compilation of your finishes to share with potential sponsors?  i'm just saying, it would be nice luxury to have, that's all.  i'm sure russ puts a lot of time and energy into the site and i know that most of the glitches aren't his fault (ccs spells my name differently every round)...  don't think that i'm not grateful.  but that doesn't mean there aren't better options out there.  

btw, is anyone able to log onto the site right now?

As a quick FYI
the results sheets use name as recorded in main database, which is also where license cards are generated from so if your license is correct official results will have your name correct.
Laptimes are on a stand alone database generated each weekend, if you "change" your name each weekend it will not be corrected when loaded into myracingbio that Russ runs. Ie if your name is William A Smith II and you do an entry for Bill Smith your member number will redirect to correct name, same as if entry form was done as Will Smith, William A Smith Jr, etc or if handwriting is hard to read add in the occasional typo. If your name on the laptimes at the track doesn't match your official licensed name then say something to timing and scoring. T&S use bike numbers to transfer results from electronic and manual scoring into the results/points program.

I hope this helps a little 

thanks eric, i try to tell T and S every time i notice something is wrong. 

also, i know that a lot of the problems are out of russ' hands...  i'm just saying it would be nice to have a system that doesn't have inaccuracies or compatibility problems in the first place.

it also doesn't help that when they're brought to his attention, the site doesn't get changed or fixed anyway.