First off, everyone I had the pleasure to talk with this weekend really wants to make racing a success again. This was a hot subject at the track, there were lots of good ideas out there, here are few random thoughts I had.
Hawk commented in another thread about getting your friends out to race by splitting costs such as travel and whatnot. This is the kind of thinking we need right now. If every racer gets a friend to either pre-register or sign up for a school, we can get some good numbers. Get those racers on hiatus to come back out. Let's face it, when is the last time you saw 'spectators' in any great numbers at the track? It's not going to happen at a club event. That's not a good direction to spend any resources.
That said, perhaps CCS could put an incentive program in place. If you bring a friend out who signs up for the school and enters a race that weekend, the racer who brought them out gets a cert for one entry. From a business stand point, it's a wash, an entry for an entry, but in the long run, you've created a new, repeat customer. Kind of like that shampoo commercial from the 70's (I'm showing my age here), you tell 2 friends, and they tell 2 friends and they tell 2 friends, it becomes exponential.
Track days are drawing some pretty good numbers, so the desire is there to go fast. I don't think chasing a Midwest expert will teach you nearly as much on a trackday as it will in the heat of an actual event. Hell, pick their brain at a trackday, a number of them work these events, and then see if you can apply what you've learned. We've had a number of records set at the track during race events. No one is doing that at trackdays because that's not what trackdays are about.
Track day guys who think that they aren't ready to race need to understand they will improve and gain new experience by racing. There is a different vibe during a race weekend than on a track day. The excitement is higher, the competition, even with the guys in the middle and the back of the pack, becomes a challenge. A wise man (ahem, Dave Doe) told my husband this weekend, masturbation is fun, you get to play with yourself; but sex is where it's at because you get to share it with someone. You are not supposed to race at a trackday, and really, there's no scoring, no flag, no trophy. A race is a competition, you put your best up against someone else's best. You have a standard you can measure yourself against.
No doubt, CCS has a lot of work to do if the Midwest is going to comeback to it's glory days of full grids where you had better pre-enter or you might not compete. The business model has changed. Trackdays are not the enemy however. Partnerships with trackday providers can become the ultimate feeder system to the future of motorcycle racing.
Riders complain about the grids being too thin to make any contingency $$. We can change that. Let's help CCS out by making sure there are enough machines out there, so when the time comes to talk to those in the industry about offering contingency, they have a reason to do so.
We have a good infrastructure in place. CCS and Midwest Safety Crew have a nicely trained group of experienced people, tracks like Blackhawk Farms are making improvements so our time there is comfortable and safe. The bigger stuff is handled, the smaller moving pieces need a bit of tweaking.
We can make 2011 a growth year. Now is the time to make changes for the future. If you have ideas on how CCS can grow and improve, send them to Kevin. It doesn't matter whether you think there needs to be rule changes, if you have a marketing idea, or some other comments on improvement. However, while being critical, you must offer a solution. We will not recover if all we do is complain and provide negative feedback. That's a dead end street.
Remember, Kevin worked hard to keep the remainder of the Midwest season alive. Let's show him it's worth having a 2011 season by making September at Blackhawk worth his time. Every one of us can make an impact.
:preachon: I'm off the soap box, :blahblah: someone else rant for a bit. :biggrin:
On another site, somebody ( EVIL TWIN) had also mentioned volunteers in order to keep the costs lower for CCS... like volunteer officials, tech, registration, safety crew, security, ect, ect. these people say they do it for the sport and not the money.... well that would save CCS alot of money....
We have always offered to share our pits, trailer, truck,, pit vehicle, generator, tools, hands, bikes, tires, tire changer and such and I agree with Paul, More people need to be doing this.
an alternative to Alexa's idea of the certificate for bringing a new rider... what about a "race" with award at the award ceremony? The person to bring a noobie in to get their license and enter a race that weekend gets 1 point per noobie... the person with the most points at the end of the season wins and gets one of those little bike trophies. This way there isn't a wash in entry prices, CCS still gets there money plus new riders... 2 people tell 2 people tell two people..... That really is an anybody race and the more competative that becomes the better the grids look and the better off CCS will be
I'm personally going to twist Shelly's arm (Evil Twin) if she makes it to the STT BFR day in Sept, that lady SHOULD be racing
I posted this in the other thread but will post it here as well, I'm a software engineer, high end banking systems stuff (for short) I'd LOVE to help out by seeing what part of the home office process could be automated or brought online - my time would be free to Kevin/CCS for that purpose....that said I'm sure there are other folks with skills in the ranks that could be applied to improving the CCS racing org/process/etc - outside of Saftey crew, officals, etc - personally I like paid professionals in those roles, but there has to be other places we as the racing community can donate time or effort to helping improve - I mean there has to be at least one insurance agent among us.....etc etc - hell get an insurance company to sponsor CCS MW next year, someone knows someone out there....
Quote from: twilkinson3 on August 23, 2010, 04:51:10 PM
I'm personally going to twist Shelly's arm (Evil Twin) if she makes it to the STT BFR day in Sept, that lady SHOULD be racing
I posted this in the other thread but will post it here as well, I'm a software engineer, high end banking systems stuff (for short) I'd LOVE to help out by seeing what part of the home office process could be automated or brought online - my time would be free to Kevin/CCS for that purpose....that said I'm sure there are other folks with skills in the ranks that could be applied to improving the CCS racing org/process/etc - outside of Saftey crew, officals, etc - personally I like paid professionals in those roles, but there has to be other places we as the racing community can donate time or effort to helping improve - I mean there has to be at least one insurance agent among us.....etc etc - hell get an insurance company to sponsor CCS MW next year, someone knows someone out there....
you should check out some of these so called paid professionals...... just cause they are getting paid doesn't mean they know anymore or are anymore of a professional as the guy who is not getting paid.... there is no education requirements, certifications or what not for these positions....hence why I suggested volunteers.... But if they were certified for their positions, I would say keep paying them because they have gone to school and have the degree and training to back them up. agreed for the timing and control tower people to get paid but the rest can be replaced by volunteers easily without sacrificing quality
our cousin Nancy is an American Family rep.. My husband is web page builder and an electrical engineer, I will have my CPA and a couple other accounting certifications in hand February 6th...10 years of management experience . corner worked for CCS and AMA events for 8 years. I am more then happy to volunteer any thing I can to help out. Even if it is as little as putting the wrist bands on at the gate.
Also KAOSH my husbands race sponsor, will no longer have a sport bike racer to sponsor next season... I can talk to him about sponsoring CCS directly in place of sponsoring Jim. He is a very generous man and sponsors quite a few different racers in various sports.
yeah Shelly needs to get her tush racing!!!!! I have seen her quite a few times at trackdays and she looks awesome!!! she can totally kick some Femmoto ass!!!
Dave's Doe's analogy made me laught because I'm always telling people that racing is the most fun you can have with your clothes on!! But he makes an excellent point. Racing requires commitment and guts.
There are a lot of good ideas out there on how to promote racing. I still think that we should promote racing to the general motorcycling public - I've had quite a few of my MSF BRC students come & see me race (slowly), start track days and a year or so later show up in the amateur ranks.
The CMRA puts together a snazzy poster for their each of their events. Racers print these out and post them in their local shops. If we get 2 spectators per poster....We obviously cannot rely on spectator funding but we should not write it off either. I think that anyone seeing Jason Farrell putting it sideways while laying down a rubber line when he passed me on the outside of 5 would find it very exciting...
As racers, we have to step up, implement some of these ideas if we want to continue racing 90 min from home....
I would be willing to donate my fine-tuned skills of abridging civil rights at any of the upcoming races....all for free!
I think a problem is people that do the trackdays don't know how much better racing is than a trackday, and that it doesn't matter if "they are not fast enough" seemingly they all think they are not fast enough.
What do you think people did before trackdays? they sucked it up and raced!
I'm not sure how to fix this, but I think the racing orgs need to find a way to partner with trackday orgs. But it will have to benefit the trackday orgs too, otherwise they will say FU.
Or maybe CCS needs to put some "coupons" out there like any other buisness. I know it sucks not making all the money, but you will get more people in the events, which evens out, and then they come back.
Like for first time racers 1/2 off entry, or the first race free. *this will get those people that are not sure about it, and once they try it and realize how much better it is, then they are hooked. Like a drug dealer giving free samples ;) People say racing is worse than drugs, all it will take is a taste.
Or to keep returning racers there, enter 3 races get a 4th free.
In my humble opinion partnering with track day orgs wil help. I was and still am the slow track day goer that just got into racing last year. I decided to start racing by trying the MCRA challenge series at my local track. That showed me that you don't have to be the fast guy to race. I keep learning from bringing up the rear. At least now I pass a few people and don't ALWAYS come in dead last! The track day orgs have a great turn out so if CCS could partner with them it should get the numbers up.
I started at track days, and now i'm hooked for good. I probably wouldnt have started racing if it were not for the td's. But at the same time i only did two track days and decided it wasn't enough. the problem is all the riders the have done every td for the last 2-3 years and still are not racing
The only way I think they (CCS, TD orgs) could partner is to hold events at the same time and place. Even then I have witnessed a virtual ghost town feel on race day , the day after the TD (Gateway). It is a very complex problem with all the TD orgs and CCS or any sanctioning body fighting for the same customer in a region already challenged for enthusiasts.
Just a thought but there are some fast trackday people that are not racing..... what if the trackdays offered to pay for or paid for a portion of the license for those people who maintain a certain average lap time... That would move some of the people that think they are not fast enough into racing with the confidence that they need in regards to their speed.
another thought....
CCS have a racer appreciation weekend in each region where the races are only $25.00 each, no registration fee, and no gate fee
also...
I have heard many people joke about this but it would be a great idea and will bring in some more money and more spectators..... Pit bike races :) 10 dollar a vehicle entry fee, motorized class and a non motorized class
and....
get dealers involved.... make posters to post up in the shops. make a pamphlet to be handed out.... have it handed out to all sport bike purchases and available at the checkout counters.... racing is expensive and if a dealer gets a customer hooked --- they are going to profit as there is always something the racer is going to need....
Quote from: riderupred on August 24, 2010, 06:35:44 PM
Just a thought but there are some fast trackday people that are not racing..... what if the trackdays offered to pay for or paid for a portion of the license for those people who maintain a certain average lap time... That would move some of the people that think they are not fast enough into racing with the confidence that they need in regards to their speed.
When you take the race school, your license is included.
QuoteCCS have a racer appreciation weekend in each region where the races are only $25.00 each, no registration fee, and no gate fee
How does this help CCS turn a profit? They are running at a loss in the Midwest, we need more $$ through the gate, not less.
QuoteI have heard many people joke about this but it would be a great idea and will bring in some more money and more spectators..... Pit bike races :) 10 dollar a vehicle entry fee, motorized class and a non motorized class
We did that during the Wegman Benefit auction, people got hurt, and no one wants to pay for the liability insurance.
Quoteget dealers involved.... make posters to post up in the shops. make a pamphlet to be handed out.... have it handed out to all sport bike purchases and available at the checkout counters.... racing is expensive and if a dealer gets a customer hooked --- they are going to profit as there is always something the racer is going to need....
Good idea. Who pays for the printing of the materials and controls what text and content goes into each of these items? Printing and distribution are expensive and logistics are complicated.
CCS controls content. My best friend owns a printing company. when you buy in bulk it is usually cheap... there are few design websites where you post what you are looking for and people reply with samples and cost bids.... keeps it really cheap :) No doubt it takes money to make money.. But if enough people chip in on a marketing fund the cost to CCS will be minimal if any..... I will send $50.00 to the idea and free delivery to my area.
Quote from: riderupred on August 24, 2010, 07:50:27 PM
CCS controls content. My best friend owns a printing company. when you buy in bulk it is usually cheap... there are few design websites where you post what you are looking for and people reply with samples and cost bids.... keeps it really cheap :) No doubt it takes money to make money.. But if enough people chip in on a marketing fund the cost to CCS will be minimal if any..... I will send $50.00 to the idea and free delivery to my area.
Wow. Just Wow. <shakes head> And you have a business degree? wow.
I would be more than happy to put up a race schedule style poster in my dealership! If someone does a quick layup in Photoshop or some other program that is easily printed, I am sure most businesses would have no issues with printing them out on a sheet of glossy photo paper and putting a few up.
Quote from: kawtipping on August 24, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
I would be more than happy to put up a race schedule style poster in my dealership! If someone does a quick layup in Photoshop or some other program that is easily printed, I am sure most businesses would have no issues with printing them out on a sheet of glossy photo paper and putting a few up.
Thank you :)
My thoughts exactly... it does not have to be elaborate and expensive.... you can make a tri-fold on microsoft office print one and go to office max or the likes and print X amount.... .10 a copy when under 100 copies .07 cents over 500 and .04 over a 1000 ( office max rates). Spend some time folding them and then ship/deliver. Wal mart prints banners and posters for under $30.00.
When you have little money to do something, you figure out how to make it work..
it takes money to make money.... if CCS can't afford the marketing then maybe from the help of the racing community they can afford the marketing to get the word out....
Just to clarify, I currently have my degrees in accounting .. And am half way done with my BSBA..... I am not a marketing exec.. they are business degrees but not THAT end of business. I work on the money end of business.
Quote from: SV88 on August 23, 2010, 05:51:11 PM
The CMRA puts together a snazzy poster for their each of their events. Racers print these out and post them in their local shops. If we get 2 spectators per poster....We obviously cannot rely on spectator funding but we should not write it off either. I think that anyone seeing Jason Farrell putting it sideways while laying down a rubber line when he passed me on the outside of 5 would find it very exciting...
riderupred, I think SV88 trumped you on the idea...
Quote from: spyderchick on August 24, 2010, 10:05:32 PM
riderupred, I think SV88 trumped you on the idea...
yep he had a great idea!!!
I simply added to it with handing out pamphlets with bike and accessory purchases and making them available at the check out counters. Something for the customer to take home and think about. Maybe I ( the customer) didn't see the poster or I forget about the posters I see because I am in a rush, I have a million things to do, something comes up.. but if I have a reminder sitting on my table or desk at home I am more likely to give it more thought.
There are some good ideas here. Also there are some decent thoughts being put down in the Where was everyone thread, and if some of those ideas were combined with others in different threads on the forum, I think they may hold some strong ideas. Three that I would like to see brought together is classes, overall cost to compete in those classes and lack of a properly classifying out dated bikes. Not that adding classes is always productive, perhaps it would work in this case. Having a pre-2k class would be one way to get people that are unable to afford a newer bike the chance to get on the racetrack. This does add problems of getting direct fit race parts for them...but almost everyone would be in the same boat. If you had a MW and HW class for the pre-2k, they could run with LW and MW respectively so they are not completely out classed. Perhaps making this a claimer style class would be an option as well. Hell, make it a $3k claim on the top 5 in the class. Bringing in a used bike dealer as a sponsor for the class would more than likely be an easy sell as well as they could see sales from folks looking for that cheap bike.
I know my idea isn't perfect, but I would like to see CCS stick around in the Midwest for many years to come. I am trying to do my part by putting together a contingency program for next year as well.
Another thought... could CCS make friends with one of the closest "other" race origs in the midwest - say the CRA? Possibly offer a license reciprocation program? I know a number of CRA racers would be very open to running a couple of CCS events if they didn't have to purchase a license. I brought down a CRA racer with me to Road America this year, and meet up with a couple others there as well and all were impressed with CCS (except for the registration line Thursday...) and looked forward to coming back next year. I may even get one or two of them to head down to BHF in September as well with me.
And maybe a combined CRA / CCS weekend or two (one at BIR & one at BHF or Road A). The rules package & class structure are similar enough that it could be made to work.
Quote from: kawtipping on August 24, 2010, 11:10:12 PM
There are some good ideas here. Also there are some decent thoughts being put down in the Where was everyone thread, and if some of those ideas were combined with others in different threads on the forum, I think they may hold some strong ideas. Three that I would like to see brought together is classes, overall cost to compete in those classes and lack of a properly classifying out dated bikes. Not that adding classes is always productive, perhaps it would work in this case. Having a pre-2k class would be one way to get people that are unable to afford a newer bike the chance to get on the racetrack. This does add problems of getting direct fit race parts for them...but almost everyone would be in the same boat. If you had a MW and HW class for the pre-2k, they could run with LW and MW respectively so they are not completely out classed. Perhaps making this a claimer style class would be an option as well. Hell, make it a $3k claim on the top 5 in the class. Bringing in a used bike dealer as a sponsor for the class would more than likely be an easy sell as well as they could see sales from folks looking for that cheap bike.
I know my idea isn't perfect, but I would like to see CCS stick around in the Midwest for many years to come. I am trying to do my part by putting together a contingency program for next year as well.
Having a more cohesive class structure is certainly one thing that CCS could do to draw more racers. Right now there's is no real 'stock' class as the way the supersport rules are written you can build a pretty wicked machine.
As far a a 'vintage' class, that would probably be a good idea. Lots of older machines that folks have lying around they would love to bring to the track but don't have anywhere to put them and be competitive.
So yes, making the class structure so that more people find racing affordable is a good start. Racing will always be expensive, but if we have an entry level class where people get hooked, that just makes good business sense.
While 'claiming' sounds interesting in theory, the fact is it was originally intended to create the illusion of 'parity' at the pro level between lowly privateers and factory outfits. In practice, you dared not 'claim' anything as there was a backlash of ever getting a better ride, it created resentment rather than a level playing field.
At the club level, I claiming just doesn't make sense. Even the top experts can't spend money like a factory outfit, so there are no $50K chassis and $25K suspension systems. A club rider who has a larger checkbook can throw some fairly big dollars at their bikes, but in the end, it's whether you have the skill to make use of all of that. If we take Robert Jensen as an example, he never did anything out of the ordinary. He spent the time to develop relationships with people in the industry to get sponsorship, picked the brains of Thermosman and engine gurus and then applied it to his program. It's not rocket surgery, but it does take work, research and dedication. Oh yeah, the fact that the guy had a high level of skill probably helped. His bin it/win it ratio was more than respectable.
Jason, I've heard a few other people throwing around the idea of partnering with other racing organizations. You have it right, there needs to be a similarity in the rule books. I think the idea has merit, just one more option for folks.
good discourse here;
we've seen quite a number of vintage bikes @ our track days in 2010, so at least in CHGO, there seems to be a strong contingent of vintage bikes who WANT to get on track and race. Perhaps, some overlap with class rules to allow for AHRMA, recipricol rights as far as license goes could get more bikes on course and open the opportunity for vintage bikes.
Of course, it goes without saying....reduce the complexity of the CURRENT CCS classes to increase the grids while reducing the number of races to fit into a schedule....."simple systems survive, complex systems fail" seems to apply here.
Next, why not grid based on qualifying like we used to in the FUSA rounds or CCS expert Unlimited GP in 2003/2004?
I understand the business reason for driving pre-entries, hence the primary driver for $$$ in advance of the event;
However, the economic reality today is racers simply cannot commit or part with their income so far in advance any longer.....as evidence of pre-entries being down across the board- very consistent.
So, consider reducing the number of classes to open the schedule while increasing grids to get sponsors back, and with the reduction in classes, opens the opportunity to build grids based on qualifying. LESS IS MORE.
This experience (qualifying), I would argue counts towards the value proposition of a participant driven model.....pay to play.......even though it is part of the GRID process, the rider/racer experience is better than filling our faxes in Jan. ! Certainly more fun....better than a pre-entry model.
Asked if the racing community would prefer Qualifying to Pre-Entry, I would hedge a bet it is easily 80/20 in favor, if not 98/2 or even 99.999998% for Qualifying or timed practice.
Of course, from a safety perspective, qualifying is better to build grids, racing against others at the same pace, skill, closing speeds......and since it is more seat time, the racers MIGHT see more value, therefore COMMIT to a race that has a qualifying session as opposed to a sprint with a pre-entry for grid process.
Lots of IT/programmer types in the CCS community (i'm one of them) could help the challenges faced with building the grids in a timely fashion to counter the argument GRIDS BASED ON QUALIFYING IS COMPLEX. It simply doesn't have to be......we did something similar in 2007 in short time using Grand Am's AMB Timing System for the HRRS Outlaw Races before the MOTO-ST round @ HPT. It was ugly, lots of scotch tape, bubble gum, and shimmed to death, but it worked and Matt Hall won A LOT OF MONEY!
To further simplify the rules and allow for racers from all regions and all sanctions, (regional sanction invite??) we used a dyno from Canada Superbike to enforce a base set of rules, largely taken from the prototype Daytona Sportbike rulebook generated from AMA PRO/DMG to get near 3:1, pounds to HP ratio. It worked. This allowed for bikes setup for different rulebooks to compete on a level playing field. Assuming schedules can be resolved (easy in advance, with willing partners) it seems we could quite easily hold regional club races with an INVITE to various sanctions.....assuming we could address the conflicts and focus on the commonality (overlap).
Perhaps, if we had a portable dyno available, this could help keep racers honest and rules somewhat less complicated (somewhat). In my view, the whole premise should be to reduce the barriers to entry and ease the transition into racing with the new assumptions of our current market.
Speaking to the schedule and open the opportunty to enable timed practice or qualifying, how about moving CCS licensing clinic from Sat. inside the race weekend to Fri. allowing for Rick's LCR students to get their license BEFORE to open the opportunity for MORE race entries on Sat AND Sun?
I am assuming we could coordinate something with BFR on the test and tune practice (fri.) and with Kevin Elliot / CCS, and Rick Breuer on their calendar. It seems like it should work towards more entries with a Race License clinic on Fri. driving NEW race entries on Sat. & Sun.
more fodder for the fire....
One more thing I'd like to address is marketing, in the past there's been an "hold an event and they will come" mentality. No more. Yup, trackdays were a game changer, and people have a choice.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Trackdays need to be the gateway into racing. Partnering with regional trackday organizers is key to funneling more riders into the sport. The bitching that trackdays are ruining racing has got to stop as it's not productive.
In addition, there needs to be an aggressive marketing strategy to create predictable and sustainable grid volumes. Whether it's a grassroots/viral marketing campaign; a slick, no-holds-barred media blitz or a combination of the two, the fact is no one can turn a wheel unless they know there's somewhere for them to make it happen.
I think we have a good dialogue going here. Don't expect to see massive changes overnight, but rather an evolution within the sport. We need to stop looking back and start looking forward.
right on Alexa-
I concur (as we normally do) with your point on Marketing......This is crucial and incredibly important, based on our experience in the track day market, Motovid.com can help. Of course, we must all agree that "best kept secret" status is BAD for CCS and must change.....so Motovid.com offers the following distribution, marketing partnership for CCS in 2011.
Just like we do for our sponsors and partners, Motovid.com could distribute a 4x5 CCS flyer (artwork, design and print costs borne by CCS) to its Track Day market via handouts at the event and well via snail mail using our Souvenir DVD mailer....FOR FREE! (1300 delivered in 2010)
In this way, Motovid.com offers a free marketing partnership to CCS to help promote, advertise and market the CCS program to its market of track day enthusiasts....After EACH of our track day events in 2011.
If Kevin could put together an infomercial for CCS, post-edit, professional video clip (3-5 min.) I would be happy to include CCS marketing on ALL DVDs in 2011.
Once again for FREE....the only cost to CCS is materials for print and cost involved with post production video editing to make a suitable content clip for our 2011 DVD distribution.
Last year we shipped over 1100 DVDs and this year we should eclipse 1300. Assuming 100 flyers per event, suggests we could get 2500-3000 pieces of collateral material in A VERY targeted market for CCS at no cost (distribution).
Hey, Mikey...I like it! :biggrin:
Seriously, good idea. There's a marketing model that can be built upon.
Quote from: spyderchick on August 25, 2010, 07:04:01 AM
Jason, I've heard a few other people throwing around the idea of partnering with other racing organizations. You have it right, there needs to be a similarity in the rule books. I think the idea has merit, just one more option for folks.
Just as long as it's not WERA's... :biggrin:
Well... the CRA book is kind of a combination between the CCS rule book and Wera rule book. Class structure is very simialr to CCS, but bike prep & requirments are similar to teh WERA book... So SS classes are more restricted.
That artwork and pamphlet (maybe a small poster...) bit could also be distributed fairly easily to amenable local Dealerships, someone else said the racer crowd working thru a local dealership is also win-win for the dealer...i agree
So if that were to come to pass I'd be on board with canvasing the local dealers in the Milwaukee area to get them to help support the sprot in the simplest way possible - carry information for us.
Nobody has brought this up yet, so....
Back when I started racing 10 years ago, there were NO trackdays, and the ones that did exist were few and far between and expensive as hell.
Now there are track days galore, they are cheap, and have very little tech requirements. So the entry level track rider is going for track days rather than springing for a set of Sharksinz and going racing.
The real question you should be asking is not how to print the better flyer, but how to get the trackday rider into racing. We all know these track days can be downright dangerous- maybe a Showroom Stock class where they can tape the lights, zip tie the kickstand, and hit the track? Or a probationary period where full race prep is not required (i.e. belly pan) for the first 2 race weekends?
Getting trackday riders to race is where it's at.
Gino230,
Completely agree;
This simple fact, as you state: ..."Back when I started racing 10 years ago, there were NO trackdays..." is true for many racers in this community and of course, almost always identified with by the race sanctions as the businesses servicing these markets over time. But as we all know, environment variables change......so new business models must evolve to conform to the new variables, embrace change and modify the approach to get the desired return.
Your main point here seems to identify the logic behind the simple position being bantered around recently "track days are killing racing....", by suggesting they are competitors for the almighty dollar in a finite market.
Yes, this could be true, in a very simple analysis. If that's the case, motorcycle club road racing is competing with many other forms of entertainment, parts for the bike, family vacations, etc. etc.....Let us not forget a tough economy.
I firmly believe these segments, old and new, are complimentary, as opposed to adversarial, and track days should be recognized as an ideal market to harvest new racers from the race sanctions [embrace].
Together, the coexistence of these distinctly different segments which maintain different value propositions & requirements (racing & lapping [ track days]) in the motorsports market place CAN generate MORE business cooperatively for both segments.
With 4 CCS MW regional race events annually for the Blackhawk Farms Raceway Track Championship, Blackhawk Farms Raceway and Motovid.com certainly believe this, as demonstrated recently with quite a few of our track day riders and rider clinic students moving thru LCR in 2010 to become CCS MW racers.
Track Day rider-> Rider Clinic student -> Race Clinic student- > New Racer
Using our track day and rider clinic programs, we have developed partnerships that provides clear path, progression along with incentive in the form of guidance, instruction from local, regional racers in an attempt to harvest new racers for our partner, Learning Curves Racing Schools and therefore, CCS from our events. Working with our dealership partners, we help new riders get on track with track day seminars and open-house events.
Some of our track day riders we bring in stay track day enthusiasts. In some cases moving on to other track day organizations for their respective club atmosphere focusing on performance riding. Other times, those riders with the *chromosome or pure talent, continue on to the next step from performance riding to actual racing.
Along side our Control Riding staff, we include Rider Clinic instructors in all run groups of our track days to expose new riders to racing with local regional experts and champions to help promote the Blackhawk Farms Track Championship Rider Clinics for riders of all levels [NOT just racers], held each Fri. before each CCS Race weekend, sharing the track with Test & Tune Race practice for the CCS weekend competitors.
Additionally, we include Race Clinic instructors from our Race License partner, Learning Curves, in both the Blackhawk Farms Raceway All Levels Motorcycle Track Days and Track Championship Rider Clinics for even more exposure, promotion and direct guidance for new racer prospects.
The whole idea : ride together, hang in the pits together and expose the up and coming track day enthusiasts to the world of motorcycle club road racing with local, regional, and national experts, champions and race license instructors.
We feel with our programs we can either:
a) develop a NEW racer, who will become a future participant in our community
-or-
b) develop a NEW race FAN, who might come to a future CCS race weekend and become a supportive part of our community
either way, it seems win-win-win for all......if we could only get around.....
"Track days are killing racing........" nonsense.
Gino230,
Sorry for the long rant, but I dig your "Production class" concept, another way to reduce the barrier to entry.
Personally the cost of racing was a big factor that delayed my start of racing. I love track days, and racing. But add the expense of both together and my race dates become limmited. (that will probably change next year since Gateway, my home track, may be closed). My son has just started doing track days and wants to race with me, so now my expense's just doubled. Cutting costs for the races would help get more racers in, make racing cheaper than track days, and although ccs' per race income is less, overall with more racers running more races the income is more. It's a double edged sword, but maybe something that needs to be done. Also I am sure everyone has noticed that when your friends ask what you have planned for the weekend, you tell them racing. The first thing they think of is "drag racing". There needs to be more advertising so more people know what we are doing! Get spectators, and you get future racers!
If cost is an issue could you guys maybe make a package so I can do the riders clinic get my racer license and do one race all in one week end.
I am told that it may cost me as much as 400 to 500 hundred dollars for a weekend do you think I could the hole experience for 400 or 500 for a weekend I would be up for that.
It would give me a chance to get on track learn something and get the feeling of a competitive race in one weekend it would be awesome.
OK, Hammer of Truth... I gotta ask, I just have this feeling that you're an ex-racer now heavy track day rider and/or CR/instructor because of some of the insight you've posted shows that you've been around awhile and know both sides pretty damn well? Your concepts are pretty straight forward and seam like they are easy to understand and would be pretty straight forward to implement. Am I correct?
Quote from: Jason748 on August 25, 2010, 02:58:42 PM
OK, Hammer of Truth... I gotta ask, I just have this feeling that you're an ex-racer now heavy track day rider and/or CR/instructor because of some of the insight you've posted shows that you've been around awhile and know both sides pretty damn well? Your concepts are pretty straight forward and seam like they are easy to understand and would be pretty straight forward to implement. Am I correct?
Just a hunch....... but after many PMs ...... My thoughts are that the hammer is Casper...... "The hammer" mentioned some things that only Casper and I talked about in private....
I am so glad that Motovid.com really liked my pamphlet idea and is willing to implement it via trackdays and their mailers..... also glad that dealers are willing to come on board with the idea to make the pamphlets available in the stores....Wording may have been wrong but the concept was right on :) That is the kind of FREE support the organization needs :) I am still willing to give $50.00 to help cover the material cost... lets not worry about the profits at the moment and just concentrate on getting more racers!! :D The profits will come with more racers.
sorry !!! I do know who he is but I am not him I have been around allot ! I was an ex racer gone broke trying to get back with it
done a few trackdays with other tracks and I rode a clinic but for all the info that I have has been nothing but reading post from you and everyone else on here WSB NESBA Wera if you guys go back and read on all these sights you can find the same things I have nice try BUT THIS IS Not casper .
Oh well, Casper always was a ghost anyways...... might as well remain a mystery! :biggrin:
then we have two caspers????
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,18384.msg154281.html#msg154281
Quote from: Burt Munro on August 25, 2010, 05:31:57 PM
Oh well, Casper always was a ghost anyways...... might as well remain a mystery! :biggrin:
8) that's what I thought :biggrin:
Quote from: The Hammer of Truth on August 25, 2010, 02:26:59 PM
If cost is an issue could you guys maybe make a package so I can do the riders clinic get my racer license and do one race all in one week end.
I am told that it may cost me as much as 400 to 500 hundred dollars for a weekend do you think I could the hole experience for 400 or 500 for a weekend I would be up for that.
It would give me a chance to get on track learn something and get the feeling of a competitive race in one weekend it would be awesome.
Do as I did for my brother(51 y/o). Seek sponsorship from the family. All expenses were paid for him and he shelled out nothing. Race school, Saturday practice and two entries for racing. He borrowed my spare leathers, spare boots and spare gloves.
Mark
Quote from: motovid.com on August 25, 2010, 12:45:11 PM
Gino230,
Sorry for the long rant, but I dig your "Production class" concept, another way to reduce the barrier to entry.
Well that was the idea! I didn't mean to marginalize the promotional aspect, I know that there is alot that can be done in that arena and I agree that all of the avenues should be tried.
Just to clarify, I don't think it's track days vs. racing. I agree with your "rant" that they compliment each other. I agree that track day riders often graduate to racing and that's great!
My point was that many of us started racing because there was no cost effective alternative to getting on the track.
The racing organizations need to recognize this and modify the rules and class structure to encourage these riders to become racers.
I know we need belly pans, safety wire, and non antifreeze coolant for safety reasons and I'm not one to promote reduced safety standards, but we need to make the barriers to entry lower and that is where my thought process is taking me.
Making sure there is a class for everyone (within reason) is another one. Maybe a point system could be established that gives more credit towards riders competing on older bikes- sort of a class within a class- or a handicap system like golf. Not for the class championship, but maybe a secondary "title". That way guys like me with a 10 year old superbike in the garage might spend the extra $110 to race it in a couple of classes, instead of just saving it for track days because it's not competitive anymore.
I'm sure we all know there is no one silver bullet, but alot of these things can add up to increased revenue and could make the difference between an empty grid and a full one.
jenna I can put any avitar with aonceny post to or any link once again this not casper but if you want to keep thinking it is cool but sure the real casper may get up set!
Quote from: The Hammer of Truth on August 26, 2010, 08:13:14 AM
jenna I can put any avitar with aonceny post to or any link once again this not casper but if you want to keep thinking it is cool but sure the real casper may get up set!
Can someone translate this into English for me?
Quote from: Jeff on August 26, 2010, 08:38:54 AM
Can someone translate this into English for me?
Why bother? :lmao:
Quote from: riderupred on August 25, 2010, 06:11:01 PM
then we have two caspers????
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,18384.msg154281.html#msg154281
It is so funny that now after I posted this link.... I can no longer view it.... wonder why that is?
Soooooo, a lil birdie told me my name was mentioned over here (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff239%2Fevltwinn999%2FSmilies%2Fglaugh.gif&hash=474a8cce40ac47ba36e173a1939d3859474d265e) Thanks for all the kind words, I don't know all the screennames over here!
This is being talked about on many boards and it appears to have sparked some interest, several people have said they plan on racing next year, which is the boat I'm in.
I plan on getting out there next year, just have to get a few things set over the winter, so as long as that happens I'm there.
I'll be the slowest out there I'm sure but I'd at least like to try it, even if it's just once!
So I hope to see some of you out there next year :thumb:
Welcome to our little slice of heaven.
I used to be the moving chicane, it gets better with each weekend. :thumb:
Well as a new comer to the game I can honestly say that I had always thought that racing was way out of my budget and also skill level. Recently I have been more and more curious about it and have been doing a lot of forum reading, and have been reading that it may not be as expensive as long as you control your budget. So yes once i get done with this deployment I am going to get my race license and will hopefully be seeing more of you next year. I guess my point is this, maybe I was ignorant to the fact that I could never afford to race or maybe their needs to be more exposure about racing at track days. I have done my fair share of trackdays and have never heard anybody say much about CCS or WERA. And have not seen a brochure saying come check out CCS and come race for real. Another option that I am not sure if you guys offer is getting miltary members like myself off the streets and get on the track by offering possibly a military discount. I have been riding with NE#BA and this year they just offered a three year free membership and 10 dollars off of every day they register for. I can tell you first hand that this is an excellent way to get peple on the track. I myself have gotten 8 people in my unit to get out on the track and are now hooked. The military is a very good opportunity to get people interested in racing. We come back from overseas with a big pocket full of money and throw it down on a bike and go out and terrorize the streets. Now I know that this isnt the perfect outlet for them to go racing but getting them off the street and on the track even at track days is a great idea and has been working for NE#BA lately. So that is just a couple suggestions that I have been thinking a lot about lately as I sit overseas waiting to get back on the track again
I feel Timmay's smite count going up.....someone mentioned NESBA. :lmao:
So who wants to sponsor me on 2011 8)
NESBA...... isn't that the organization that you need a real high IQ to get into?
Quote from: Burt Munro on August 26, 2010, 11:28:03 PM
NESBA...... isn't that the organization that you need a real high IQ to get into?
Not sure since I am a member.
Quote from: riderupred on August 26, 2010, 03:27:13 PM
It is so funny that now after I posted this link.... I can no longer view it.... wonder why that is?
Because it was a 3 year old classified ad for somthing that is long sold... We do that around here... Relax, it's no conspiracy...
On a serious and licensing note I thought of this...
Some of my posts were in relation to LCR and Motovid (or any other trackday org) offering CCS licensing. One of the main things people stated was that LCR has your run a mock race. That is something trackdays cannot offer. They might be able to given instructions on flags, rules, and regs but not do a mock race.
This made me think about the Team Chicago school that Dan Schmidt has run for years and years. If you complete that school you can apply for a WERA or even CCS license without having done a mock race? I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure I read that on the Team Chicago website and or it has always been that way.
I believe it is only a WERA license.
MRA posts up another press release about their event weekend...
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41800