Just looking for coarse numbers.
1mm at a time? 5mm at a time? +5 at a time?
I added 15-clicks of hi-speed compression to my rear and the bike all of a sudden flicked around like a 250, was effortless to turn or hold a line. But it got very unstable and started headshaking/oscilating on the gas and kinda squirly under hard braking, so I went back to original settings.
After that I realized my bike steers like a truck, stable as a freight train, but won't turn/flick or stay leaned w/out input. I am worn out half way through a sprint race...after riding it with the backend taller, I know it is the bike's geometry, not my fat belly.
Want to get the geometry back to that 250 feel. Raising the rear caused instability.
Lowering the front requires less adjustment/change to get the same feel as the rear?
Less adjustment in the front compared to the rear would result in less instabilty?
What would be a good guess at mm adjustment in the front? It is a pain in the ass to pull bodywork and move fork tubes repeatedly at the track, so I want to get it as close as possible on the first try.
Thanks
start with 6inches and see how you like that :biggrin:
if your springs are right and your sag is good I would start a few mm at a time. However you can always "play" with the preload to see if that will help you out before you move hard parts.
you really gotta pull your bodywork to move your forks??? you cant just loosen the trips and work it down without takin the whole durn thing apart? that blows
timmay
oh yeah and re-set sag each time you move the hard parts... shouldnt be much change but always start from zero... you should be able to get it really close before lunch at a TD if you arent CR'ing
I'm CR'ing whcih burns up most of my time...if I am not riding I am trying to recover...sprawled out like a beached whale. I don't have really any time to work on it.
When I originally moved them when I got the bike I think I had to remove the glass to get a socket in there, I could be wrong. Hopefully I am.
So 3mm sounds like a good starting point? Would only 3mm possible be able to cause instability, or is that too low of a number to make the front end wobble?
My rider front sag is at 30mm front with 120mm oil height (Thermosman reccomends 140mm in my bike), anything lower and the bike easily bottoms out to the stops. Fork springs are .925 (193lbs), and I only have one line of preload left to make them softer. Softer springs would bottom out worse, and harder springs I wouldn't be able to get sag because not enough adjustment left.
My rear rider sag is 28mm.
Tim, would 3mm of preload = 3mm of fork adjustment???
Why are you using so little sag up front? 30mm?
Use preload to get a direction on what you want to do. It's part of your operational geometry.
If I'm shooting in the dark, I'll usually move the forks in 5mm increments. Additionally, I'll run the fork caps below the top plane of the upper triple if I need to get the geometry sorted out. There are plenty of bikes that need 17mm fork extensions anymore also to get the geometry right. The extra trail that can be utilized from an effectively longer fork length can improve one's leverage, for lack of a better word to describe it, in getting a bike to do what you want without being hard to control when compressed.
You're riding a GSX1000, right? It's never gonna turn like a 250 unless you drop a bunch of weight off, and throw away a bunch of rotating mass in half the pistons and crank. But maybe you've never been on a 250 GP bike.
uh... what dave said :thumb:
but thats what I was getting at by moving preload first to see if thats what is going to make it work better... I learned that from some guy that used to teach some school that rhymed with Dision Skorts 8)
I think his name was Dave also... wierd
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 06:33:53 PM
Tim, would 3mm of preload = 3mm of fork adjustment???
No.
When you add preload, you're pushing into the spring that amount. If you move the forks, you move the forks. Additionally, you're moving the bike's center of gravity. How it moves is different from bike to bike and set up to set up. Moves around an inverted pendulum. If you really want to think about it, a great handling bike usually has the essence of a pendulum with a long radius and its origin is directly below the bike. Some bikes aren't that way. Vintage bikes tend to have the origin forward of where the CG moves around. Some new bikes are the other way with too much movement forward.
Scotty Ryan would be a good guy to talk to at http://www.tracksidesuspension.com/
Quote from: tstruyk on June 20, 2010, 06:44:14 PM
uh... what dave said :thumb:
but thats what I was getting at by moving preload first to see if thats what is going to make it work better... I learned that from some guy that used to teach some school that rhymed with Dision Skorts 8)
I think his name was Dave also... wierd
Who?
LOL!
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 06:47:11 PM
Scotty Ryan would be a good guy to talk to at http://www.tracksidesuspension.com/
again this Dave guy with the good info... you really need to meet that other Dave guy sometime
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 06:47:32 PM
Who?
LOL!
yeah I dont recall, havent seen him around in a bit, I think his last name had something to do with a Nose???? :lmao:
Eric, if you move the forks, you'll also have to recheck your sag because of the movement of the cg. If you really want to chase it, that's what you gotta do.
If you just change preload, yes, it will move the cg, but it's because you're pushing into the spring and "starting" earlier. It's similar but different.
But, personally, I'm struggling with why you have 30mm of rider sag up front, if you're measuring it the same way I would. Then having 20mm less air than what has been recommended thus giving you an earlier hydraulic lock up. Then the .925 spring at your weight. I don't think I liked the .925 on my GSXR750 at my lighter weight, not by much, but...
Quote from: tstruyk on June 20, 2010, 06:51:33 PM
yeah I dont recall, havent seen him around in a bit, I think his last name had something to do with a Nose???? :lmao:
Heard he might be at Road America on the 4th. And that he won a couple of races there last weekend. :)
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 07:06:59 PM
But, personally, I'm struggling with why you have 30mm of rider sag up front, if you're measuring it the same way I would.
Hi Dave.
06/GSXR1K.
Rider on pegs and seat, then no rider and forks extended to max.
Thermosman front w/ Ohilns valves and springs, just the cheap valving, not cartridges. 925 springs w/ 193lb rider.
Thermosman recommends 140mm of 5 weight in my bike (120mm MAX). He had 115mm of 5 wt in mine.
with 4 lines (out of 5) showing I was at 30mm of rider sag. My bike was bottoming to the stops in bumpy corners.
WFO changed the fluid, and reassembled forks so I had 5 more clicks of rebound (had been assembled incorrectly before). He added 5cc of 5 weight for a grand total of 120mm of oil.
At 4 lines showing and 30mm of rider sag I am 10mm from bottoming.
I am afraid if I run 35mm of rider sag I will be bottoming them again.
Not a 250GP bike, but it was night and day. I am usually good for about 5 laps in practice before my body starts wearing out.
I rode the whole session w/ the rear jacked up and felt as good on the first lap as the last. It literally cornered effortlessly compared to it's normal state. I would have left it but it was slapping and unstable under acc and braking.
I do not understand how adding 15 clicks of hi-speed to the rear made such a difference.
????? :wtf:
Ben Probst said my rear felt spongy, way off, like the Ohilns-triple shock needed to be serviced. He said he would try and help me with my settings at RA.
I did not know that changing your geometry affected your sags. This sh*t is complicated.
I don't know if making it steer quicker will make me go any faster, but it sure will stop me from wearing out so fast.
What do you think is going on up front?
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 07:50:14 PM
At 4 lines showing and 30mm of rider sag I am 10mm from bottoming.
I am afraid if I run 35mm of rider sag I will be bottoming them again.
Bottoming isn't a problem unless it is actually a problem in bottoming.
Why not add some go back to 35mm of sag which would nose the bike down and then add some compression so that is slows the action and gives you some feel of what's going on up front?
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 07:50:14 PM
Not a 250GP bike, but it was night and day. I am usually good for about 5 laps in practice before my body starts wearing out.
I rode the whole session w/ the rear jacked up and felt as good on the first lap as the last. It literally cornered effortlessly compared to it's normal state. I would have left it but it was slapping and unstable under acc and braking.
I do not understand how adding 15 clicks of hi-speed to the rear made such a difference.
I'm unsure of the range of your compression settings, but, yeah, I'm with Ben. Adding 15 clicks of HS to the rear is ridiculous. You've got a problem.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 07:50:14 PM
I don't know if making it steer quicker will make me go any faster, but it sure will stop me from wearing out so fast.
Road America... yeah, you'll want it to steer faster. A lot of aero lift that affects geometry. Gateway? It will get slammed back and forth a lot more. Two very different places.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 08:05:46 PM
Bottoming isn't a problem unless it is actually a problem in bottoming.
???
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 08:05:46 PMWhy not add some go back to 35mm of sag which would nose the bike down and then add some compression so that is slows the action and gives you some feel of what's going on up front?
I only have 3 clicks of front compression left before it is at max.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 08:05:46 PM
I'm unsure of the range of your compression settings, but, yeah, I'm with Ben. Adding 15 clicks of HS to the rear is ridiculous. You've got a problem.
Hi-speed comp was set at 40 clicks out (of a possible 45 clicks).
Screwing it in 15 clicks [for a total of 25 clicks out (Thermosman recommends 15 clicks out to start)] made it a different bike. Very little effort to turn, switchback, or stay leaned. Felt like I could let go of the handlebars at mid corner and it would continue to lean. Did not oversteer, felt perfect. Rear was soaking up (responding to) bumps better too.
But was moderately unstable.
Normally I am using all of my legs and arms to change direction, and having to countersteer the bike while leaned over.
My bike is jacked :err: It's like solving a rubic's cube...
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 08:17:16 PM
???
Use the stroke of the suspension when you can. It can bottom and not kill you. But, you could still have an issue with the whole geometry being crap: too much weight on the front period.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 08:17:16 PM
I only have 3 clicks of front compression left before it is at max.
Ok. Could change the oil to something heavier, but you still could have a geometry issue.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 08:17:16 PM
Hi-speed comp was set at 40 clicks out (of a possible 45 clicks).
Screwing it in 15 clicks [for a total of 25 clicks out (Thermosman recommends 15 clicks out to start)] made it a different bike. Very little effort to turn, switchback, or stay leaned. Felt like I could let go of the handlebars at mid corner and it would continue to lean. Did not oversteer, felt perfect. Rear was soaking up (responding to) bumps better too.
But was unstable.
Yeah, well, you're a long way off there to start. Additionally, you said high speed compression. High speed is usually for really harsh, square edged bumps. What's the low speed compression at?
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 08:17:16 PM
My bike is jacked :err:
Yeah, I agree, but I think you've had a hard time taking the time to focus on it. It's a life long struggle to understand it all.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 08:24:08 PM
Use the stroke of the suspension when you can. It can bottom and not kill you. But, you could still have an issue with the whole geometry being crap: too much weight on the front period.
I forgot to mention that not only did we increase the 5wt oil 5mm, we
also added 3 clicks of compression to keep it from bottoming. And I still only have 10mm from bottoming now.
With the original Tman settup (115mm of 5 wt) and 6 clicks out of compression (30mm of rider sag) it was bottoming and locking down...I was locking at the bottom and chattering/skipping across the bumps at Putnam T2 and T9, and GIR T8.
Also, rebound issue.
After first recieving my fork rebuild by Tman I had only 13 clicks of rebound. I was supposed to have 18, which got taken care of when WFO rebuilt them.
Even after fixing the rebound clicks and fresh 5 wt, I am still having to run my rebound wide open....and it is on the edge of still having too much rebound.
I have no doubt my shim stack and valving was incorrect rebuilt originally.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 08:24:08 PM
Could change the oil to something heavier, but you still could have a geometry issue.
If I go any heavier it will increase my rebound to unusable.
Here is what doesn't make any mechanical sense.
1-I am having to run my rebound wide open to keep the forks from locking at the bottom over bumps.....extending too slowly.
2-I am having to run my compression almost maxed out (3 clicks shy) and 120mm of 5 wt (140mm recommended 5wt) to keep from bottoming
Thats ying and yang, nowhere near middle ground settings.
3-I am running 30mm sag and it is close to bottoming out....and I will be out of preload adjustment if I back the preload off to 35mm.....that doesn't seem right.
4-The springs appear to be too heavy since I only have 1 line of preload left at 30mm of sag....yet the bike wants to bottom.
5-adding 20mm of oil over recomended is what it took to keep it from bottoming (including almost all of my compression and preload adjustment...and low sag #)I cannot even describe in words how unhappy I am with my fork re-valving/performance.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 20, 2010, 08:24:08 PM
Yeah, well, you're a long way off there to start.
When I got the shock, the guy said the setting were all close. I didn't know what hi-speed comp was, nor did the guy that set my sags....so we left it as it came....40 clicks out.
When I was talking to Tman a couple months ago, is when I asked for the starting number (15 out) for the hi speed comp. Going in 15 (total 25 out) made the rear soak up GIR T8 noticably better, and it steered MUCH better. I know I should be closer to 15 than 25 clicks out on the hi-speed.
My low speed is at 11 out.
I go along w/ Ben on the rebuild....I am sure there is nothing wrong w/ the rear shock that fresh oil and correct adjustments wouldn't fix. But the forks are so....?...F'd I thik they are causing most all of my problems :banghead:
If I had the money I would just drive the bike down to GMD ATL and get the forks valved/sprung right once and for all and get the shock serviced/adjusted....(I should have done that from the very beginning) but I don't have the money, so I keep trying to bandaid the problem :banghead:
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
With the original Tman settup (115mm of 5 wt) and 6 clicks out of compression (30mm of rider sag) it was bottoming and locking down...I was locking at the bottom and chattering/skipping across the bumps at Putnam T2 and T9, and GIR T8.
Locked up was something mechanical, right? Sounds like that rebound issue...
And did you ever ask where to run your shock and fork lengths for your tires?
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM...and it is on the edge of still having too much rebound.
Why do you say that?
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
Here is what doesn't make any mechanical sense.
1-I am having to run my rebound wide open to keep the forks from locking at the bottom over bumps.
2-I am having to run my compression almost maxed out (3 clicks shy) and 120mm of 5 wt (140mm recommended 5wt) to keep from bottoming.
Thats ying and yang, nowhere near middle ground settings.
Middle ground isn't necessarily a goal. I know that I've had plenty of bikes running about five clicks out on compression or something to that kind of number. Use what you gotta use there unless one can come up with actual mechanical issues.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
3-I am running 30mm sag and it is close to bottoming out.
Why the .925 yet?
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
4-The springs appear to be too heavy since I only have 1 line of preload left at 30mm of sag....yet the bike wants to bottom.
If you had 40mm of sag with the preload all the way out, you'd have recognition of a spring that was too heavy. You've got an indication that it is too light.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM5-adding 20mm of oil over recomended is what it took to keep it from bottoming (including almost all of my compression and preload adjustment...and low sag #)[/b]
Bandaid for spring issue. Gotta start with springs, and geometry, first.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
When I got the shock, the guy said the setting were all close. I didn't know what hi-speed comp was, nor did the guy that set my sags....so we left it as it came....40 clicks out.
Yeah, been there. Long time ago, but you've got to come armed. Probably worth looking into the spring rate on the rear shock too. Depending upon what route Ohlins shocks come from, they can come set up based on running two up. Really.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
When I was talking to Tman a couple months ago, is when I asked for the starting number (15 out) for the hi speed comp. Going in 15 (total 25 out) made the rear soak up GIR T8 noticably better, and it steered MUCH better. I know I should be closer to 15 than 25 clicks out on the hi-speed.
My low speed is at 11 out.
Low speed sounds probably close.
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 20, 2010, 09:02:17 PM
I go along w/ Ben on the rebuild....I am sure there is nothing wrong w/ the rear shock that fresh oil and correct adjustments wouldn't fix. But the forks are so....?...F'd I thik they are causing most all of my problems :banghead:
Start at the basics.
Springs, geometry.
According to just plodding on this page assuming you're 195 without gear and that your bike is 410, front springs should be 1.0's and the rear should be 9.1ish...so, 9.0? Not sure what that is in #'s. Got a calculator someplace.
http://old.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Suzuki&yr=05-06&ml=GSX-R1000&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork&bikeid=444
If there rear is over sprung along with the front being under sprung, it's gonna ride like ass. Start with the basics.
Dave and Timmay, thank you for all of the advice and explanations. Mucho appreciated!!!
Sorry I am such a winer, just get frustrated that the forks weren't done correctly from the start. I guess I'll order heavier springs and see what happens. Ben is going to do my adjustements (reb/comp) so that should help a lot too.
Thanks again :cheers:
I dunno if the springs will work but I am going to be putting .95s in my SV... I've got 1.0's in there now... if they work I would be interested in your .925's just in case the .95's are still too heavy... you could have my 1.0's...
the springs need to fit stock SV forks with AK20's...
Quote from: tstruyk on June 21, 2010, 02:50:49 PM
I dunno if the springs will work but I am going to be putting .95s in my SV... I've got 1.0's in there now... if they work I would be interested in your .925's just in case the .95's are still too heavy... you could have my 1.0's...
the springs need to fit stock SV forks with AK20's...
Thanks Tim!
I don't think they will fit.
I just talked to Tman.
He said my forks are within spec on the 10mm from bottom. And said the 30mm rider sag is OK for the 1K.
He said my rear spring is way to soft, so I am sending it for rebuild and respring tommorrow.
Hope this helps towards getting my bike squared away.
Thanks guys!
Quote from: Speedballer347 on June 21, 2010, 03:18:30 PM
I just talked to Tman.
He said my forks are within spec on the 10mm from bottom. And said the 30mm rider sag is OK for the 1K.
He said my rear spring is way to soft, so I am sending it for rebuild and respring tommorrow.
Hope this helps towards getting my bike squared away.
Good!
After talking w/ a service-tech at Ohlins USA, that's where my forks are headed.
He said I have an 80lb rear spring, when I should have a 95lb spring, that's 3 sizes off.
Said my rebound stack sounds off, and I should be on .975-1.0 fork springs. That's 2-3 sizes off.
Dude spent a lot of time with me on the phone.
I don't know how the original dealer could have gotten the springs so far off for my weight :rollseyes: and screwed up the valving.
I'm skipping the middleman and sending it directly to Ohlins. Said he wouldn't charge me to do the forks, and would swap rear springs for free. And can get it back to me i time for RA :cheers: