Race #7 Middleweight GP AM @ NJMP Thunderbolt May 1, 2010
According to the starter, race officials and race director, the entire front row of the first wave jumped the start, and those 4 riders were penalized a lap each. Only having 6 laps, you can imagine what they placed with 30+ riders grid'd at the start.
We contested the call, and even went as far as getting VERY CLEAR video from a rider grid'd one row behind them, that NO ONE in the front row jumped the start, not even close. Actually they all had shitty starts ..
On top of that bad call, there were 2 checkered flags thrown, on lap 6 and 7. Which the race director admitted to, costing a few racers to pull in a lap early. Through all this everyone we've dealt with has been very dismissive, but said they'd see what they could do.
All that aside, when we showed the video and explained the video to the head honcho, and were told, and I quote "What's done is done, suck it up" And something along the lines of we don't watch video to review calls. We asked if it was in the rule book, he couldn't come up with a solid answer, because its not.
Now, this is just club level racing, there's no big money on the line, and everyone knows that people make mistakes. But just the fact that, NO ONE can apoligize, or even say anything is wrong with this situation, is BULLSHIT. This would of been completely understandable if all we were told was "Sorry guys, there's nothing we can do about it, the results have to stick." Done deal ..better then, sorry guys we messed up but can't man up for it, so just deal with it since you guys can't do shit about it.
Sorry for the long ass post, but I think people need to hear about this, because it really is an outrage.
HD Video, in slow motion, all that will be posted when we get back from jersey, stay up guys.
Dude, that sucks! Ask Jim (Farmboy) about getting pinched for a "false start" at Road America last year. I was on the row behind, and got good video of it. We brought it to the director, but it was after the 30 minutes had expired....so it went nowhere. At a bare minimum- they at least seemed like they would have reviewed the footage if we could have got it in on time.
I'd personally ask CCS to review the incident. At least for future video review calls and whatnot. Just sayin'......
WERA racers here running with CCS for the first time certainly are not getting a good impression. Those I know, I've told that this isn't the way things usually operate. The Mid-Atlantic crew runs a great operation, there are only a few from the Mid-Atlantic crew here. We'd really be screwed if half the cornerworkers weren't MARRC regulars.
Quote from: skiandclimb on May 01, 2010, 06:43:08 PM
but it was after the 30 minutes had expired....
that would be my question... was it officially "protested" within 30 mins of the posted results?
We went straight to where the results were posted RIGHT after we pit in, initially because of the double checkered flag issue. We waiting until the results arrived only to find out about the false start issues, so saying it wasn't contested within 30 minutes of the race is ruled out.
Video to come.
sucks, my friend started on like row 75. heard there were some major screw ups in that race. heard another one the didnt get a white flag, just checker. with 17 races on the schedule for sunday i hope it runs a bit better
Quote from: DougG60 on May 01, 2010, 09:59:42 PM
sucks, my friend started on like row 75. heard there were some major screw ups in that race. heard another one the didnt get a white flag, just checker. with 17 races on the schedule for sunday i hope it runs a bit better
White flags are courtesy flags, they dont have to give them.
I was one of the guys that supposedly got penalized, it was Nick #47, another guy, Drew #717, and myself #901, all gridded front row. We went out ran our laps and as I'm getting ready to pass the start/finish I see a checkered flag gets thrown out, so I'm doing my cool down lap then all of a sudden 15 other guys roll by me, as I'm pitting in since I thought it was the checkered flag, I see another checkered flag get thrown out.
Let's see:
I'm running for points, gridded front row........end of race.. 2 checkered flags get thrown at me and a few other riders who pitted in thinking it was the end of the race on top of that they say my buddies and I all jumped the start and meatball flags were thrown out for all 4 of us.
I ended up in 30th place LOL.
I do have to say that CCS F this one up The sad part is when you get told to (deal with it and suck it up) from one of the head CCS guys. I know this is not the AMA but we pay alot of money to go racing some people are running for points.
This is the start of the race
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZilNCfNfCDE
Quote from: benprobst on May 01, 2010, 10:58:34 PM
White flags are courtesy flags, they dont have to give them.
But two checkered flags? That's dumb.
Just watched the video. Sorry, but you show green, and I'm going. No jump observed, whatsoever.
I'll bet if you pried, and found out who threw the flag, you'd likely find it was someone on their first day doing it. It almost looked as though the starter threw it up, and thought the start was when it "dropped" maybe?
Anywho, FWIW- I didn't see a jump at all. IMHO, all front row riders should be given their true placing points, and should be sent their wood in the mail.
Hope it goes somewhere, bro. Even if it just helps officials understand the majority of us ARE running cams, and in this digital age- video tells the story pretty well!
Quote from: Super Dave on May 02, 2010, 05:21:58 PM
But two checkered flags? That's dumb.
Absolutly, total bull shit. No matter how many laps the race is, if you wave the checker its over. For whatever reason it seems to be the case every year with certain parts of the country in CCS. They just dont hold onto the staff like other clubs. If I go run WERA or CMRA its the same people who were shooing me out of the pits when I was 5 years old running the show. Every april its like training day.
Quote from: skiandclimb on May 02, 2010, 08:30:54 PM
It almost looked as though the starter threw it up, and thought the start was when it "dropped" maybe?
After watching the video my first thought exactly.
Was it CCS Staffers, or NJMP people? I am completely unclear about anything that happened this weekend, how involved was NJMP in running this event? Beyond the 200 people on the security staff, which I'm guessing was responsible for the ridiculous gate fee......
there is a person that calls the jump starts with CCS that started 3 years ago. I am beginning to feel he just does not get what a good start is or doesn't see enough good starts to know a good reaction time start when he sees it. SAD but true. In my first 5 years of racing 5-6 sprints a race weekend, i had 1 jump start. TOTAL.. and that was a WERA race of all things and i mean it was a bad start. I was already through row 1 from the 2nd row where i started when they threw the green flag.. MY bad.
However in the past couple seasons, i have been called for a jump twice, by this new official. The first was his 1st weekend calling jump starts.. and it was not a jump start. When the green flag even begings to move and you go, that is not a jump start. It looks worse if the riders around you get bad starts, but hey..that is not my problem.
I asked the official at CMP about it and his reply was "i though you creeped a bit".. If there is a question, i would contest the RIDER should get the benefit of the doubt. Without allowing a replay, or even having the replay like AMA has to review the start while the race is running THE RIDER SHOULD NOT be meatballed unless the official is CERTAIN. period.
I watched that video, and that was a bad call. Plain and simple.. it does happen. Maybe they can have some procedure instituted, like having a 2nd offical being required to concur or the jump start call by the 1st offical or something. And for goodness sake ! throw the green flag already! This holding us on the line, like it builds anticipation or something is getting old. Many of us do more than a few races, and the sadistic approach of holding us is hard on bikes, gets people pissed off, etc. Turn the 1 board, and throw the flag already . (if your reading this Jen, you therw it so fast at JenningsGP it took me by surprize every time so im not directing this at you :biggrin: )
Here is my other problem with jump start calls. They often only have 1 person checking jump starts, and they are usually placed (you guessed it) on the front row. SO.. anyone on the front row usually is more likely to get called for the jump start than others in rows further back. I think they move the official around a bit to even things out but im not sure. This has only since the last round gotten under my skin a bit. Benefit of the doubt however is the key.. the official should be totally positive it was a jump, not "think" "pretty sure" "kind of sure" about it.
I believe it was a NJMP crew not CCS, according to a few CCS people we talked to the person viewing the starts for jumper is no longer doing it.
Our MW GP race, they claimed we all jumped.
Instead of a white flag a checkered came out lol. I started my cool down lap and people still flying pass me at race pace, I'm pitting in another checkered gets thrown out.
The 4 front runners got screwed imo, I'm one of them. Would be nice if they own up to it and put that race entry towards another sprint on a future race or something.
It sucks when your own friends who finished behind the front runners tells CCS staff that they did not finish in the places that CCS gave them.
Quote from: SVbadguy on May 01, 2010, 07:02:55 PM
WERA racers here running with CCS for the first time certainly are not getting a good impression. Those I know, I've told that this isn't the way things usually operate. The Mid-Atlantic crew runs a great operation, there are only a few from the Mid-Atlantic crew here. We'd really be screwed if half the cornerworkers weren't MARRC regulars.
I was there all weekend working as a safety marshall; kind of doing a little bit of everything. I spent time interacting with racers and vendors, working corners, working with race control and working with the 'track people'. I got a view of this race weekend from just about every perspective. I am going to say... please don't let this experience reflect on the whole CCS MidAtlantic region. This was an EXCEPTION to how things are usually run in the Mid-Atlantic. There were NUMEROUS complaints that were voiced throughout the weekend and we can all hope that NJMP will HEAR those complaints and try to get things to flow a little better for the remainder of the events at NJMP, I guess we can all hope.
This was our 2nd race experience at NJMP. They have a lot to learn to come up to the quality of service we have come to expect from CCS. As for our team, we will be back. Everybody needs time to get their act together. I'm 50 and I am still working on it.
no doubt.. it is a learning process. Just get it right, right now. LOL. :biggrin:
My 2 cents - not only was that not a jump start but man you guys were a good half second off the green moving
Quote from: Carnag3 on May 03, 2010, 10:58:05 AM
The 4 front runners got screwed imo, I'm one of them. Would be nice if they own up to it and put that race entry towards another sprint on a future race or something.
It sucks when your own friends who finished behind the front runners tells CCS staff that they did not finish in the places that CCS gave them.
i was in the stands for unlimited sbk you were in and looks like they made up for the jump start call in that race. unless it was all 1 wave start and the entire field but 2 people sat there :cheers: i was talking with your (girlfriend?) about it during the race
i think that everyone is overeating a bit when it comes to the early checkered. it clearly states in the rulebook that when it's thrown before the scheduled amount of laps are completed, the race is over. it made sense when i read it, and still makes sense now that it has actually happened. sure, it sucks, but everyone got in the same amount of laps anyway. i'm sure the 2nd flag was just a courtesy for everyone counting laps and ignoring the first one.
as for the jump start, let's get those results fixed, huh?!
Quote from: Greeny on May 03, 2010, 01:45:04 PM
i think that everyone is overeating a bit when it comes to the early checkered. it clearly states in the rulebook that when it's thrown before the scheduled amount of laps are completed, the race is over.
It doesn't seem that that's what happened - they they through checkers once a lap early, then pulled it in and re-through. The people who got screwed acted as they should have - stopped racing at the checkers.
Quote from: DougG60 on May 03, 2010, 01:23:34 PM
i was in the stands for unlimited sbk you were in and looks like they made up for the jump start call in that race. unless it was all 1 wave start and the entire field but 2 people sat there :cheers: i was talking with your (girlfriend?) about it during the race
I didn't see a 2 wave start at all, when the flag went up I took off. The guy in front of me didn't even move at all. My gf said she was talking to you and everyone thought #723 Donald and I went on the wrong wave. She also said that no one moved for a bit and the flagger kept on waving the flag for people to go. Good times racing.
if thats the case then good for you guys. everyone but 2 of you just sat there, makes it a bit easier to win
Quote from: Greeny on May 03, 2010, 01:45:04 PM
i think that everyone is overeating a bit when it comes to the early checkered. it clearly states in the rulebook that when it's thrown before the scheduled amount of laps are completed, the race is over. it made sense when i read it, and still makes sense now that it has actually happened. sure, it sucks, but everyone got in the same amount of laps anyway. i'm sure the 2nd flag was just a courtesy for everyone counting laps and ignoring the first one.
as for the jump start, let's get those results fixed, huh?!
The first checkered was thrown on lap 6, but retracted about halfway through, which is why only the front runners saw the first flag. The back end of the race didn't see that flag and kept racing through for another lap, and then did their cool down lap. Not only will that screw up the front runners 1 lap, but more importantly ..coming across start/finish there you're easily doing 140+, if someone chops thinking the race is over, someone could easily get fudge packed.
Did the race director acknowledge the starter waiving the checkered early? Just curious more than anything. I can see why one would be pissed. That being said im sure there is a more constructive way to get results. I work with folks regularly that are upset for whatever reason, and im the one person that can make things right. They motherfuck me or my company publicly or choose not to discuss the issue as adults... My 'give a fuck' meter drops to zero. When I'm approached with a concern on a project or a question about a contract in a manner thats professional... Ill bend over backwards to make them happy, even if they are wrong. Ymmv. Either way, points should be awarded and results updated for the first checkered flown. Payouts corrected if necessary. Jump start... Sucks but what can ya do.
ah thanks for the clarification with the checkered flags.
Quote from: tstruyk on May 03, 2010, 03:10:31 PM
Did the race director acknowledge the starter waiving the checkered early? Just curious more than anything. I can see why one would be pissed. That being said im sure there is a more constructive way to get results. I work with folks regularly that are upset for whatever reason, and im the one person that can make things right. They motherfuck me or my company publicly or choose not to discuss the issue as adults... My 'give a fuck' meter drops to zero. When I'm approached with a concern on a project or a question about a contract in a manner thats professional... Ill bend over backwards to make them happy, even if they are wrong. Ymmv. Either way, points should be awarded and results updated for the first checkered flown. Payouts corrected if necessary. Jump start... Sucks but what can ya do.
The race director acknowledged, and admitted there was a double checkered issue, before we even really brought it up. And we did try to settle this AT the races, face to face, just easily explaining the situation, the error, and went out of our way to find evidence to back it up. I personally know that entire front row, and they're all chasing points and contingency money; when the higher ups had nothing to say but "whats done is done, suck it up" without consideration of anything else. Isn't that pretty much a fuck you?
I would give CCS a C- for Saturday. After 3rd and final call for GTU and F40 ex, they had us sitting at the gate for 10+ min waiting to be released onto the track. I know some shit happens after the checkered flag but on a 90 degree day....send up back to the pits and call us when you're ready to let us onto the track.
They also scored me wrong in F40. I had passed the 7th place finisher somewhere around the half way mark but I was scored one lap down and in last place. I didn't bother to fight it since I had to leave the track right after the F40 race but it still pisses me off.
Lets hope they do a better job at the next event.
The original CCS crew supposedly was not running the stuff at NJMP. I think they were training NJMP people for future events, not to sure.
I heard the same. CCS was NOT running the day. They were training the Jersey people for their new "series". Some of these new people were from Loudon in NH. Kevin did seem to be making most of the "calls" however.
Did you protest the results after the double checker? Ive never protested a race or result personally but i believe there is something you have to do 'officially' perhaps in writing vs a verbal complaint. You tend to have more leverage when you follow protocol. Not saying you didnt, or that there is such policy... Again i dont know and cant check the book from my phone. Moreso just seeing if you have any real restitution vs going off via forum which wont yield results... At least it hasnt in the past. You wont win the jump start arguement. They wont re-run the race. So the 'whats done is done' statement although tough to swallow is kinda true. Sucks but how would you fix it? The double checker is another story imo... If an official protest was filed you should have a leg to stand on for points and contingency payouts.
Quote from: tstruyk on May 03, 2010, 03:46:56 PM
Did you protest the results after the double checker? Ive never protested a race or result personally but i believe there is something you have to do 'officially' perhaps in writing vs a verbal complaint. You tend to have more leverage when you follow protocol. Not saying you didnt, or that there is such policy... Again i dont know and cant check the book from my phone. Moreso just seeing if you have any real restitution vs going off via forum which wont yield results... At least it hasnt in the past. You wont win the jump start arguement. They wont re-run the race. So the 'whats done is done' statement although tough to swallow is kinda true. Sucks but how would you fix it? The double checker is another story imo... If an official protest was filed you should have a leg to stand on for points and contingency payouts.
We first brought up the issue when the results were posted, and then the race director was radio'd down. We explained the situation to him first, and he said he'd see what he could do. While he was doing that, we went to find any riders in the 2nd row to see if any of them were recording, to our luck we did. We showed him the video, and he agreed that it was a clean start, no questions asked. He said he'd talk to the higher ups, and see what was to be done. Thats when all we got was, whats done is done, suck it up.
Now I've seen revisions made to results, even after the penalty has been called. Why not for this one? Its clear that it was a horrible call, the race director even agreed.
Quote from: godzilla on May 03, 2010, 02:24:53 PM
The first checkered was thrown on lap 6, but retracted about halfway through, which is why only the front runners saw the first flag. The back end of the race didn't see that flag and kept racing through for another lap, and then did their cool down lap. Not only will that screw up the front runners 1 lap, but more importantly ..coming across start/finish there you're easily doing 140+, if someone chops thinking the race is over, someone could easily get fudge packed.
if anyone chops throttle even on the CORRECTLY THROWN checker they are an idiot..and make it a POINT TO TELL THEM SO!
NEVER EVER chop the throttle. You get the checker, roll off past S/F but keep your speed up. I can not tell you how many times riders forget it is the final lap. Same with red flags.. NEVER chop the throttle.
My experience with CCS (kevin) is that they went to the school of major league baseball umpires. They are always right, and if they are wrong, that is part of the game and you just have to live with it. They believe that anything less would challange their authority and make every decision they make subject to debate. I can see both sides, but it sucks when its you getting screwed!
Zilla... U keep mentioning the jump start but even w/ video evidence what did you expect them to do? What is a reasonable solution? I dont know that there is one. The double checker should be your focus. i know it wont impact you as much but as far as correcting a mistake i would think this would be a better avenue. Ive officiated some NCAA events in the past and the ONLY protestable calls were 'interpretaion' or 'procedural' errors. Never a 'judgement' call. I would imagine CCS policy is comparable... Regardless once the meatball is thrown its past judge and jury and into sentencing... No point in arguing at the track or after... Its done and over.
In my limited experience with CCS protests - even if they are already aware of a flagging issue they will not address it without a written protest and the corresponding fee.
I understand why the "race results are final' policy is there, as well as the 30 minute limit to protest - but the actual implementation stinks. With the half-assed way results are posted (and often not announced) anyone seriously chasing championships almost needs to have a gopher semi-dedicated to verifying the postings and being prepared to start the protest.
I've heard the "it's only club racing" comment too, word for word, and bet I know who said it. What they don't get is that if most of us weren't "type A" about this sport we wouldn't be out there in the first place.
3.4.7
C. Should the checkered flag be displayed prior to the published or announced race distance or time, the race will be considered com-plete. For example, should the checkered flag be displayed on lap four of a five-lap race, the race would be considered complete. Should the checkered flag be displayed beyond the published race distance, the results will be determined by positions at the completion of the published race distance. For example, if a five lap race were run for six laps, the results would be based upon position at the end of lap five.
Quote from: MELK-MAN on May 03, 2010, 10:14:11 AM
Maybe they can have some procedure instituted, like having a 2nd offical being required to concur or the jump start call by the 1st offical or something. And for goodness sake !
This is what's required for cornerworkers to report a rider for passing under a waving yellow, so it only makes sense.
Quote
throw the green flag already! This holding us on the line, like it builds anticipation or something is getting old. Many of us do more than a few races, and the sadistic approach of holding us is hard on bikes, gets people pissed off, etc. Turn the 1 board, and throw the flag already .
Really! In the GTU as long as we were waiting for the flag I thought something happened at the back of the grid and the 1-board would go up again.
regarding the jump start..
10.10 NON-ACCEPTABLE PROTESTS - Protests shall not be accepted on decisions of
officials with respect to the interpretation of the rules as they pertain to race procedures. Such decisions
include, but are not limited to, the line up of the motorcycles, the start of the race, the control
of the motorcycles, the election to stop or delay a race, the position of motorcycles on restarts, and
the assessment of lap or stop & go penalties.
not protestable.
and regarding the double checker...
10.3 PROTEST TIME PERIOD - All protests must be delivered, in writing, to an official within the
time limits outlined below. Protests requiring a fee must be accompanied with the appropriate funding
in cash or certified check.
10.3.1 Protests must be delivered within 30 minute of posting of the race results.
Protests will not be considered after the 30-minute period has elapsed and results
will be considered final. Once final results are submitted for points updates, no
changes can be made to results or points for that event.
it was however protestable...
10.5 SCORING PROTEST - Scoring protests must be made in writing and accompanied by a
$25.00 protest fee. Scoring protests do not need rule book references.
10.5.1 Should a scoring protest be upheld, the fee will be returned to the protesting rider.
10.5.2 Should a scoring protest be denied, Championship Cup Series will retain the fee.
chalk it up to experience, not to go all G.I. JOE on ya, but now ya know... and knowing is half the battle! :cheers:
Quote from: SVbadguy on May 01, 2010, 07:02:55 PM
WERA racers here running with CCS for the first time certainly are not getting a good impression.
Definitely not impressed by over the weekend. From an announcing aspect, tech inspectors, race officials and the general paddock attitude. From what I have heard it wasn't all CCS officials or workers to their benefit if that is true.
This is just my opinion and I know everyone has one. I could go into a few stories or incidents but this isn't the place for it. I was so frustrated after race 3 I basically quit the rest of the day mentally. I'll probably do one more event with CCS for my final decision. Hopefully they'll get some things worked out with the NJMP folks who help run the event.
After a few incidents the one that I find most amusing is when I went to grid up there was a person in my grid spot. I went beside him screwing the guy behind me for a good launch. When I approached a race official after the race and asked what to do if that happens again because no grid marshals are checking everyones spots. His reply was "go to the left or right of that person." My response was " Good, so i guess if no one is checking I could just go to row 1 next time?"
Again, overall from what I read and hear about CCS this is not the norm and I don't want to pass judgement the first time so suddenly.
To my understanding it was NJMP - with CCS backing..
I understand from different sources that NJMP wanted to have there hourly TD CW's working the corners. Which most of them have limited experience in racing events. I know firsthand because I have worked for CCS and the AMA there and there experience is grammar school like.. it'll take time for them to come up to speed.. however at whose expense??
Quote from: mikendzel on May 03, 2010, 09:56:42 AM
Was it CCS Staffers, or NJMP people? I am completely unclear about anything that happened this weekend, how involved was NJMP in running this event? Beyond the 200 people on the security staff, which I'm guessing was responsible for the ridiculous gate fee......
Quote from: tstruyk on May 03, 2010, 06:09:02 PM
Zilla... U keep mentioning the jump start but even w/ video evidence what did you expect them to do? What is a reasonable solution? I dont know that there is one. The double checker should be your focus. i know it wont impact you as much but as far as correcting a mistake i would think this would be a better avenue. Ive officiated some NCAA events in the past and the ONLY protestable calls were 'interpretaion' or 'procedural' errors. Never a 'judgement' call. I would imagine CCS policy is comparable... Regardless once the meatball is thrown its past judge and jury and into sentencing... No point in arguing at the track or after... Its done and over.
I dont give a shit if it's considered "protestable" or not. The complaints were valid and should have been brought to their attention. How does the entire front row jump start? What do I expect them to do you ask? Well if the guy running CCS can't make it right, which I'm sure he could have then I atleast expect CCS to review the video and hold whomever made the call ACCOUNTABLE. I also expect them to review their entire procedure, how the call is made, who makes it, how they are trained, who trained them...etc.
Kevin said he would take care of it. So we have to take his word on that. If the person was held accountable, if they have two people making the call now...etc then I guess I can accept that. We just took one for the team.
The person throwing the green flag clearly didn't understand how to do it. It looks like they think it's like that show Pinks where he raises his arms and drops them, but to do that with a flag, you need to have the flag wrapped in your hand or else you're showing green. I think it's pretty obvious that you should start the flag-waving from the top to avoid that kind of problem. Too bad for the front guys.
QuoteI dont give a shit if it's considered "protestable" or not.
If you want results changed you should, if you just want the problem resolved... well, didnt Kevin say he would take care of it? you sound angry! ::)
QuoteThe complaints were valid and should have been brought to their attention.
Which apparently several people did, and it sounds like he agreed that they dropped the ball on this one.
QuoteWhat do I expect them to do you ask? Well if the guy running CCS can't make it right, which I'm sure he could have then I atleast expect CCS to review the video and hold whomever made the call ACCOUNTABLE.
I ask you again, HOW could they have made it right. If you are sure he could have... or better yet, if you were in his shoes. How could YOU have made it right? its a penalty that's been enforced during a race. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but I think your gettin all bent outta shape wanting something fixed that cant be fixed.
QuoteI also expect them to review their entire procedure, how the call is made, who makes it, how they are trained, who trained them...etc.
reasonable request, but like you said...
QuoteKevin said he would take care of it. So we have to take his word on that. If the person was held accountable, if they have two people making the call now...etc then I guess I can accept that. We just took one for the team.
one last thing... how exactly do you "hold someone accountable" for something like this? (either the jump start or the double checker) I'm not being a smart ass I really am curious how you feel "justice will have been served" regarding the "accountablilty" factor. Most folks at a race weekend if coming from outta town barely make enough to cover expenses... so docking their pay wouldn't really be an option. I guess we could always take em out back and :kicknuts:... or maybe a good tongue lashing (and not in a good "Las Vegas" kinda way) would do the trick... my guess is it was an honest mistake and for a first round at a new facility with a new staff... i dunno I guess I just have more patience then most.
Quote from: tstruyk on May 03, 2010, 06:09:02 PM
Zilla... U keep mentioning the jump start but even w/ video evidence what did you expect them to do? What is a reasonable solution? I dont know that there is one. The double checker should be your focus. i know it wont impact you as much but as far as correcting a mistake i would think this would be a better avenue. Ive officiated some NCAA events in the past and the ONLY protestable calls were 'interpretaion' or 'procedural' errors. Never a 'judgement' call. I would imagine CCS policy is comparable... Regardless once the meatball is thrown its past judge and jury and into sentencing... No point in arguing at the track or after... Its done and over.
My fault, let me try to make this more clear.
We originally went straight to results and officials, because we had thought we pulled in a lap early. On the results, it showed the front runners had only completed 6 laps, where the rest of the race finished 7. We had thought it was because of the double checkered, but once the race director came down, he said the front line was all penalized a lap because of the jumped start.
So even after the race director admitted to the fact that there was a double checkered, this shows that they made an error, and then I guess hoped no one would notice? Do we really need to protest against that? You don't see why they should man up for something they fucked up on, without someone having to point it out, even if they said that they did it.
Now, as far as the false start issue, if going by your rules, pretty much everything about the start from the where the racer is grid'd to when he starts is non protestable. We had an issue at CMP where a racer, Sean Cassell was supposedly grid'd wrong, they penalized him a lap and posted results taking away his 1st place. The issue was, the first grid they posted that morning put him in one grid spot, and they later posted another grid moving him to another grid spot. He didn't have to write down anything, he just went to race control, told them what they did. They said okay, revised the results and he got his 1st place back.
I understand you're saying there are procedures to follow, I can see that if they made a mistake and didn't catch, that there has to be a proper protest. But if the race director himself says that there was a double checkered, do we really need to correct them? They already know the fuck up, why can't they man up to the mistake and fix it? ..that makes no sense to me.
Quote from: R1Racer99 on May 04, 2010, 03:38:06 AM
The person throwing the green flag clearly didn't understand how to do it. It looks like they think it's like that show Pinks where he raises his arms and drops them, but to do that with a flag, you need to have the flag wrapped in your hand or else you're showing green. I think it's pretty obvious that you should start the flag-waving from the top to avoid that kind of problem. Too bad for the front guys.
are you kidding! I sure I would have gone postal on someone had this been what was going on.. RASING the green to THEN drop it?? !! Tell me that really wasn't what was going on. Im surprized there were not more jump starts with riders launching when the green would be raised prior to the "real" green throw.
This is like an injustice that really needs to be rectified, so many got the screw, looks like at least go back to lap five.
I've got the white flag twice, more than once, in a few endurance events, nothing more dishartening after 6 or 8 hrs. of hard work.
It's a shame, but CAN be reflected in results I would think.
Not even going to get into a lot of what was discussed here....... you're doing a fine job of that on your own. :biggrin:
Just out of curiosity, and not that it makes anything right....... did the lead bikes pass any lappers at the end of this race?
I'm wondering if that contributed to the double checker flags...... I've know I've been caught off guard before when the leaders caught the backmarkers quicker than I expected on the white flag or checkered lap.
Now back to your regularly scheduled ranting. :ahhh:
Geez why must you do this...don't you want to be done with this? But alas I will explain one more time to you.
QuoteIf you want results changed you should, if you just want the problem resolved... well, didnt Kevin say he would take care of it? you sound angry! ::)
The reason he said he'd take care of it is because we brought it to his attention. Of course I want the results changed but if he say's he can't based on some black or white policy then I atleast want the issue acknowledged and fixed.
QuoteWhich apparently several people did, and it sounds like he agreed that they dropped the ball on this one.
He never officially agreed they dropped the ball.
QuoteI ask you again, HOW could they have made it right. If you are sure he could have... or better yet, if you were in his shoes. How could YOU have made it right? its a penalty that's been enforced during a race. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but I think your gettin all bent outta shape wanting something fixed that cant be fixed.
He could have gone with the ACTUAL race results, doesn't seem to difficult to make a ruling. If he can't do that for some reason then I atleast want him to acknowledge they fucked up, view the video, and fix the issue.
Quotereasonable request, but like you said...
one last thing... how exactly do you "hold someone accountable" for something like this? (either the jump start or the double checker) I'm not being a smart ass I really am curious how you feel "justice will have been served" regarding the "accountablilty" factor. Most folks at a race weekend if coming from outta town barely make enough to cover expenses... so docking their pay wouldn't really be an option. I guess we could always take em out back and :kicknuts:... or maybe a good tongue lashing (and not in a good "Las Vegas" kinda way) would do the trick... my guess is it was an honest mistake and for a first round at a new facility with a new staff... i dunno I guess I just have more patience then most.
???? You make sure they were trained correctly. You could show them the video and explain the error. You can move them to a different job. You can review your procedures and make a change to TWO people have to agree on a jump. You do what you can to make sure this same thing won't happen the next race or next day. Plenty of options to get the issue fixed.
Honestly I dont care all that much about my second place finish, or even the money lost, or risking my bike and injury running a race for no reason due to no fault of my own. (We were NOT meatballed, we had no clue during the race) What annoys me is the reaction to our complaints, the refusal to admit any fault, the refusal to review the video, and people like you who debate without making any sense.
It's done now. And hopefully by bringing this to their attention, CCS works to get it right next time.
QuoteGeez why must you do this...
Cuz I dont race again til Mid June :biggrin:
held accountable and fixing the problem are two different things imo... If I screw up my my job I am held accountable, and it impacts my paycheck. regardless its semantics.
I made some assumptions. I assumed that riders were meatballed for the "jump starts" not that a lap was simply docked. knowing this and that the officials acknowledged the error(s) I can see why you guys are upset. I was under the initial impression that each rider served their penalty and THEN the results were distorted with the 2 checkered flags. Thats what I was referring to when I asked how to resolve the resuilts.
I appreciate zilla (I'd call ya God but thats a bit presumptuous :biggrin:) clearing up some things.
So many times riders get mad at a situation that they COULD have had a say in and simply didnt know what they needed to do to get it corrected. An official protest would have at least granted you time to appeal the decision vs taking the ruling at the track and being stuck with it.
The whole situation sucks for sure, my original point posting here was to nudge this away from a public bashing of CCS officials... might have a better shot of getting it resolved with phone calls and letters vs shouting from the mountain!
funny that not one person from CCS has come in and said anything about this post
Quote from: tstruyk on May 04, 2010, 03:34:26 PM
The whole situation sucks for sure, my original point posting here was to nudge this away from a public bashing of CCS officials... might have a better shot of getting it resolved with phone calls and letters vs shouting from the mountain!
This is the CCS Forum right? Did you miss the part where we spoke to the man in charge, in private?
CCS reads most of this stuff, I assure you.
there should have only been one round of practice on sunday. races went on far too late on sunday
Usually it is 1 round. I was confused about that myself on Sunday.
I thought CCS always had 2 people checking for jumpers?
Yes we did pass lappers, that is how we ended up in between 27-30th place instead of dead last.
Meatball flag did not come out until the 3rd lap. Even when the meatball flag came out there were no #'s displayed with it. The meatball flag dissappears on the 4th lap.
Reviewing the video: no numbers came out w/the meatball flag.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi9.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa73%2FSlooMR2%2Fmeatball.jpg&hash=b285434fe588f29f9db0d6c8d2a2da565217a4c1)
if no numbers were posted with the M.b. flag.. how the heck do the offending (alleged) riders know to come in to serve the penalty?
keep in mind this is the same crew that raised the flag... I guess to signal "on your mark, get set.... " then dropped it for "GO"
Quote from: MELK-MAN on May 04, 2010, 10:47:13 PM
if no numbers were posted with the M.b. flag.. how the heck do the offending (alleged) riders know to come in to serve the penalty?
They don't! DUHH! :D
I'm not sure the CCS board has ever been this busy. A silver lining perhaps.
I think it was all the drama at NJMP that's created so much fuss on this board. It's all part of some master plan I tell you.
Hey guys, I'd like to see this event continue on and steadily improve. I was told by Rich Cronrath to directly e-mail him any complaints. I would also like to not scare off any potential WERA converts, or new racers, by posting up complaints from all the teething problems on the forum. NJMP, Rich, and a whole lot of our fellow racers would like to see the NJRRS thrive. Please send all complaints, criticism, and suggestions to info@racingmotorcycles.com.
we tryed to talk to them at njmp and they said deal with it. Why would I spend the time to email someone that is not gong to do anything or even give a shit
Quote from: naya the dingo on May 05, 2010, 11:40:11 AM
Hey guys, I'd like to see this event continue on and steadily improve. I was told by Rich Cronrath to directly e-mail him any complaints. I would also like to not scare off any potential WERA converts, or new racers, by posting up complaints from all the teething problems on the forum. NJMP, Rich, and a whole lot of our fellow racers would like to see the NJRRS thrive. Please send all complaints, criticism, and suggestions to rich@racingmotorcycles.com.
Quote from: 600killer on May 05, 2010, 04:03:56 PM
we tryed to talk to them at njmp and they said deal with it. Why would I spend the time to email someone that is not gong to do anything or even give a shit
Did you talk to Rich? E-mail him your complaints, he tends to get shit done.
Quote from: naya the dingo on May 05, 2010, 11:40:11 AM
Hey guys, I'd like to see this event continue on and steadily improve. I was told by Rich Cronrath to directly e-mail him any complaints. I would also like to not scare off any potential WERA converts, or new racers, by posting up complaints from all the teething problems on the forum. NJMP, Rich, and a whole lot of our fellow racers would like to see the NJRRS thrive. Please send all complaints, criticism, and suggestions to rich@racingmotorcycles.com.
I doubt all this bitching will scare anyone away. I still had a blast. The place was packed. I think it will thrive on its own, especially if CCS lets it. I choose CCS over WERA for Thunderbolt....that was the deciding factor, plus I have a lot of friends at CCS. But I dig T-bolt. (lightning not so much)
Quotewe tryed to talk to them at njmp and they said deal with it. Why would I spend the time to email someone that is not gong to do anything or even give a shit
+1 600Killer We tried that. If you want things to change, I'm of the opinion you bring it to the racers. In the end it's the racers who force change. I would hope Rich doesn't need an email at this point. I'm sure he knows and has it all fixed for next time. Hmmm unless he can refund me for that race. :biggrin:
QuoteI'm not sure the CCS board has ever been this busy. A silver lining perhaps.
I was thinking the exact same thing Peter. Someone needs to take over this forum and update it, get it rolling. We had 42 bikes in Mid-Atlantic MWSS at Tbolt and we can't get 42 people on this forum. Nobody actually WANTS to visit the WERA forum, we're just forced to. 8) j/k of course.
wera bus
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they missed it. CCS ROCKS
QuoteAfter a few incidents the one that I find most amusing is when I went to grid up there was a person in my grid spot. I went beside him screwing the guy behind me for a good launch.
Then is this you parked in front of me? :err:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqwmBceV4bw
:lmao: i was on the right in the row right in front of that cam, almost got hole shot. was watching those guys line up thinking im screwed. there was like 5 in row 1, 1 guy just behind, 4 offset to the left in front of me and 4 in my row. thank god old guys are slow off the line. oh yeah and the black flag was almost imposable to see. i looked up to see them holding it on the side of the starter stand along with someones #'s. only problem was the starters stand is black and you couldnt see the flag or #'s on the little board. at daytona they stood at the edge of the track finish line with bikes going by at 170 and i had no problem reading #'s when somebody got the meatball.
Tried emailing Rich, the addy isn't good.
Even the flagger says no one jumped the start LOL.
"roccot7 doesnt look like anyone jumped to me. and im the starter of that race."
Quote from: mikendzel on May 06, 2010, 10:44:10 AM
Tried emailing Rich, the addy isn't good.
Shit, give me a minute and I'll get the correct e-mail address.
j, didn't they say they got rid of the starter or some shit like that?
Quote from: Carnag3 on May 06, 2010, 11:05:45 AM
Even the flagger says no one jumped the start LOL.
"roccot7 doesnt look like anyone jumped to me. and im the starter of that race."
I just got off the phone with Rich, sorry I got the e-mail address wrong. I corrected it in my other post, it is info@racingmotorcycles.com. I believe he said they are meeting with NJMP today to discuss some issues. They have a three page list of issues/problems/suggestions to discuss.