Is it legal to put a 2nd gen motor in a 1st gen (specifically SV650), but change it to carbs instead of EFI. I do realize the rulebook says OEM engine (6.1.2.A) but it all fairness, the engine is a Suzuki part used in a SV650. On paper, I don't believe anything really changed between these two motors. Can anyone shed some light on this. Don't be too mean.
Cams changed. Tensioner & shiftstar changed in 05. in 07 or 08 they went with dual spark plugs
as far as legality of it, im not sure. i cant recall if the rulebook allows updating in SS
And its not like you are bringing anythin new to the table, you will be running the same exact motor as others in the class, only differece is that the first gen might way 3 pounds lighter (pulled that out of my butt, might have read it on a another site).
As for as those changes, cams are the only good ones. Shiftstare won't really make you faster nor will quieter cam chain tensioners and TWF will tell you to put a small bolt in for the second spark plug. Zoran doesn't like that head.
Rulebook answer If the OEM part numbers are the same then it is legal.
reality no, no, no, and more no
can't use the 2nd gen case cause it is different
can't use intake cams in exhaust, that is not how it came from factory
can't change carb to FI or FI to carb
you can't pick the best parts from a model line to make your own version, in most cases later years have better running gear, systems etc but some models have price reducing revisions that result in a lower quality part used.
FYI that is not official answer as I am not in that position but from a long time racer.
If you have any question that something might be in gray area send an email to office and you will recieve a verdict in writing that can be used to support any protest.
No way, the motors have plenty of differences, not to mention completly changing the fuel system. Illegal in a lot of ways.
In supersport that is not allowed.If you do superbike it is ok.The first generation engine in superbike trim can be more powerful then the 2nd generation engine.
I just find it is weird that you can have titanium axles (not that they make them, nor would I buy them for my SV) and the way I interpret it you could get away with total loss electrical (no reference to charging systems, at least in the 09 book). I don't plan on doing anything said so far, but it's always good to keep my options open.
Welcome to CCS! Ti/Alum axles, total loss, modified fork internals, aftermarket brake rotors, different triples, different master cylinder, carbon fuel tank... all are Supersport legal. CCS Supersport is not even remotely similar to WERA Superstock. Supersport gets expensive fast! Huh??
If only they would throw in the WERA Superstock umbrella rule, if it isn't listed you can't do it. I never thought about a carbon fuel tank. I wonder how much of this stuff Ed Key has on his amazing machines.
Quote from: trace33chargers on February 08, 2010, 03:09:12 PM
If only they would throw in the WERA Superstock umbrella rule, if it isn't listed you can't do it. I never thought about a carbon fuel tank. I wonder how much of this stuff Ed Key has on his amazing machines.
All of it.....
Quote from: trace33chargers on February 08, 2010, 03:09:12 PM
I wonder how much of this stuff Ed Key has on his amazing machines.
Yes! All of it!
I love CCS supersport. Building the bike is at least 1/2 the fun. Honestly, its cheaper to buy your own machine shop than pay someone else to build you a nth level supersport bike.
Funny thing is....put Ed on a bone stock SV and he will likely still destroy most of the grid....
Much easier from racer and and enforcement point to tell you what things could be checked then to say what won't be checked.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on February 08, 2010, 04:34:37 PM
Much easier from racer and and enforcement point to tell you what things could be checked then to say what won't be checked.
Riiiiight. CCS SS is one of the silliest damn things in roadracing. Under your reasoning you might as well just make it all superbike, because then everyone will know they can do whatever they want!
No reason to get personal. Eric is a good guy and just trying to help.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on February 08, 2010, 09:40:00 PM
No reason to get personal. Eric is a good guy and just trying to help.
There was nothing personal about it. Unless he owns CCS and wrote the rule, which he doesn't, then there is nothing to take personal offence about. I just think the logic couldn't be further from reality when it comes to clarity on rules for racers and builders.
Quote from: benprobst on February 09, 2010, 09:40:45 AM
There was nothing personal about it. Unless he owns CCS and wrote the rule, which he doesn't, then there is nothing to take personal offence about. I just think the logic couldn't be further from reality when it comes to clarity on rules for racers and builders.
Did Dan Jasa sign in under Ben's account? :biggrin:
Quote from: backMARKr on February 09, 2010, 09:53:14 AM
Did Dan Jasa sign in under Ben's account? :biggrin:
Hey, hey, hey. Im a jerk but not that big of a jerk! But seriously, absolutly nothing against Eric, I like Eric and he does a really good job helping us racers out here and at the race track. But to say its easier to enforce and follow rules with enormous ambiguity and giant grey areas as opposed to very black and white rules seems a bit strange. Not to say the black and white rules are a bit exclusive and a pain in the ass sometimes.
Speaking of Danny Yaya- anyone know if he's racing this season?
Thanks I don't take it as personal attack. I can understand both sides of the issue one side by face value seems like it would be easier and cheaper to competitors with only dozen or so things that can be changed but in reality you have hundreds of other things to inspect in a tear down, vs a list of dozen or so things that have limits placed on modifications that would be checked.
Maybe the list of restricted items in SS should be expanded? In the time I have been involved in rules committees I can't recall ever seeing a request to add more restrictions to SS rules
Quote from: skiandclimb on February 09, 2010, 01:58:08 PM
Speaking of Danny Yaya- anyone know if he's racing this season?
Nope....huntin' and fishin' last I heard.
Quote from: backMARKr on February 09, 2010, 04:20:40 PM
Nope....huntin' and fishin' last I heard.
I know! WTF? He went all "Grizzly Adams" on us!
So for clarity sake - if Trace were to take the bottom half of a 2nd gen bolt up the heads et al from his first gen and replace or remove the generator and run carbs - it technically wouldn't be legal? and I'm pretty sure you couldn't tell the difference visually or hp/torque wise with the above being true - just asking for future reference if I blow up teh ss motor...again....
Quote from: twilkinson3 on February 12, 2010, 07:53:25 PM
So for clarity sake - if Trace were to take the bottom half of a 2nd gen bolt up the heads et al from his first gen and replace or remove the generator and run carbs - it technically wouldn't be legal? and I'm pretty sure you couldn't tell the difference visually or hp/torque wise with the above being true - just asking for future reference if I blow up teh ss motor...again....
Does a second generation SV have fuel injection?
If you answered correctly then you answered your own question. You must keep the stock fueling method. It doesnt matter if you change half of the parts on the motor, you have to keep the stock fueling. The above scenario is illegal in many other ways as well.
It is pretty straight forward.
Do the 1st gen and 2nd gen cases have the same part number?
If not, they cannot be substituted.
Personally I've got enough in parts at the moment to rebuild, but as the gen1s age and become less available motor wise and the gen2s are still in production I was asking from the replacement part perspective - plan on doing this a while hehe - I'll have to look up the part numbers one of these days but there is physically no difference in the engine components (bottom half) between a gen1 and gen2 outside the parts referenced above
For ben - I was referring to putting a 2nd gen crankcase/tranny in a 1st gen frame in my original question thus satisfying keeping the bike's original fuelling method
As always - appreciate the info
Quote from: twilkinson3 on March 03, 2010, 12:55:09 PM
Personally I've got enough in parts at the moment to rebuild, but as the gen1s age and become less available motor wise and the gen2s are still in production I was asking from the replacement part perspective - plan on doing this a while hehe - I'll have to look up the part numbers one of these days but there is physically no difference in the engine components (bottom half) between a gen1 and gen2 outside the parts referenced above
For ben - I was referring to putting a 2nd gen crankcase/tranny in a 1st gen frame in my original question thus satisfying keeping the bike's original fuelling method
As always - appreciate the info
You are el wrongo, as they say in spanish. The 1st gen and 2nd gen bottom end share approx. zero parts. The crank is different, the crank configuration and adjustability is different, the cases are different, the rods are different, the gaskets are different, the clutch is different, the clutch basket is different, the flywheel is different, the case covers and configuration is different, the oil ports are different, the trans is different and the list keeps going.
For future reference... don't ask anybody "if" you can do it. Just do it, put a fairing on the bike so no one can see, and wait until you're finishing in the top 3 to worry about it.
Its like going into the quicky-mart and telling the clerk you're going to steal something and then handing him your business card. If your gonna cheat, do it quitely.
Quote from: benprobst on March 09, 2010, 05:14:01 PM
You are el wrongo, as they say in spanish. The 1st gen and 2nd gen bottom end share approx. zero parts. The crank is different, the crank configuration and adjustability is different, the cases are different, the rods are different, the gaskets are different, the clutch is different, the clutch basket is different, the flywheel is different, the case covers and configuration is different, the oil ports are different, the trans is different and the list keeps going.
so what youre saying is you can interchange the parts?
Quote from: tstruyk on March 11, 2010, 08:35:37 AM
so what youre saying is you can interchange the parts?
why is everything an argument with you?
Quote from: backMARKr on March 11, 2010, 10:13:00 AM
why is everything an argument with you?
Too much time around Jasa... ::)
I probably would have just done the swap, kept the carbs, and keep my mouth shut.
You'd need a 2nd gen exhaust to clear the oil cooler though.
Quote from: gpz11 on March 11, 2010, 01:00:59 PM
I probably would have just done the swap, kept the carbs, and keep my mouth shut.
You'd need a 2nd gen exhaust to clear the oil cooler though.
stop bein logical Chuck!
anything is legal as long as they don't check. think of it as restrictor plate racing.
So I'm back to being curious, what on a 2nd gen crankshaft is adjustable?
I'm not a parts fiche geek but I was under the impression that nothing much changed in the bottom half of the motor on a gen2 - meh that curiosity satisfied to any rate and I think Trace got his answer in spades....
First Gen you can adjust the crank endplay (actually this is function of the case) second gen cases you do not have this adjustability. Oil cooler, again case difference.
Cool - learned my thing for the week sv wise
Quote from: HAWK on March 22, 2010, 01:21:55 PM
First Gen you can adjust the crank endplay (actually this is function of the case) second gen cases you do not have this adjustability. Oil cooler, again case difference.
The crank is different as well, even with removing the function of thrust adjustability from the equation. The thrust adjustment is also dependent on the crank, not just the case. You can adjust the thrust with a 1st gen crank in a 2nd gen case.