Motorcycle Racing Forum

Hi.  I am the enemy.  A former racer, I now coach trackdays.  I am the reason that grids are small and racing organizations are losing money.  It's all my fault.

Now that you know better than to give credibility to anything I say, let me tell you some lies.  Racing is too damned expensive.  That's why more people don't do it.  That's why ex-racers don't do it any more.  If you're not running a new bike, you lose.  Worse, that new bike must have all the goodies to be competitive.  Let's say 15K just to get to the starting line these days.  Of course you can tumble that to bits in the first practice session of the year and then have to spend another 15K to race the next round...  As a result, you end up with just a few racers who can or will spend the money going for all the class wins.  I'm not discounting talent here but talent with new everything always beats talent with uncompetitive machinery.  Remember when Lightweight was an entry level class, run on the machines which dealers sold cheap as entry level bikes?  Really poor racers could buy the most recently obsolete machines, developed by expert champions, for even less money and still have a shot.  What does it cost to be competitive in Lightweight now?

Every season, somebody's machine becomes obsolete.  It would be interesting to take a pole of how many racers have been alienated right out of the sport when they were told by the guy in charge, "Stop whining and buy a new bike."  Where do those racers go if they can't afford to upgrade?  Their bikes are too new for Vintage so they go to trackdays.  It's those damn trackdays that have ruined racing.  Believe it...

CCS has completely lost sight of the concept that there needs to be an affordable level of racing if they intend to attract new racers and keep older ones coming back.  Rather than bitch about trackdays stealing their clientelle, they should attend a few and see what attracts so many riders to them instead of racing.  Or they could just let me explain it.  You pay a hundred bucks or so for each day, you buy a set of tires and you run whatchya brung. A weekend equals 16 session of fun on whatever bike you own.  Add in a set of tires and you're out five, six hundred bucks.  Yep.  It's CHEAP!

Enough ranting.  :preachon:  I said all that to say this:  CCS needs affordable classes.  Tires, maintenance, travel and entry fees can't be made cheaper.  Trackday guys pay all that too.  It's the machines themselves that must be made cheaper.  How?  That's pretty obvious.  Classes for obsolete machines.  If you can buy an old racebike all set up for a couple grand, at least your foot is in the door on a bike that has a chance.  Now, each race event isn't really more expensive than a trackday weekend, so if racing is what you want to do, it can be affordable.

My proposal is this.  Ten.  As in ten years old or older.  Have L10, M10 and UL10.  Superbike rules to make tech easy.  Draw a line in the sand with the date stamped in the frame so no one can bicker.  Now, how to incorporate this into the existing framework?  Give the 10 bikes different colored number plates and run them as an extra wave off the classes they match with.  Each 10 class would have four races a weekend.  For example, if the current MW machines have SS, SB, GP and GT, the 10 machines could run as an extra wave in all four races.  Since trophies cost like five bucks each, you could save money there by only giving them out to the three riders who did the best overall in their four races of the weekend.  There could be region champs and even national champs.  Hey, look!  More entry fees!

Here's the argument that's bound to come up:  "An Ed Key could take an XYZ495, make it weigh 80 pounds and produce 300 hp and dominate."  So what?  If the class is running simultaniously with the more modern machines, a rider can't run two bikes at once.  Each rider would have to choose new or old and invest himself or herself there, so if they want to hotrod the heck out of an old crock, let them!  The parts are obsolete and cheap, while garage time is free to that kind of racer.  EBay will be their main source of performance parts!  What no longer exists can be fabricated or swapped.  It's amazing what racers can create if they have more time and talent than money, especially when superbike rules are in play.

The bottom line is that there simply must be inexpensive opportunities for people to race.  This concept is not new.  SCCA has Formula Ford for new machines and Club Ford for old, obsolete ones.  Stock Cars feature classes that literally mandate junk cars with sawed off mufflers and rollbars.  Adding the "10" classes would cost CCS nothing, would increase grid size, attract new racers and entice older racers to stay.  These are all good things and might very well contribute to the sport's survival.

Flame away!

 +1 here

You are confusing us with FACTS!  :ahhh:
Good Idea!  :boink:

I like it.  The way it's proposed it wouldn't cannibalize existing entries it would be additive. 

Someone's going to complain that the 10+ riders will get in the way, but the slower EXs, AMs and noobies are already being lapped and the cause of crashes is usually not slower riders.

Chris, while I was originally cheering your post, reality set in.  The problem with your solution is that it is at best, temporary. One of the things that has dessimated the LW classes (I agree they should be kept entry level and affordable to attract competitors) is the allowing of much more powerful machinery into the class. I have been given justifications such as "technological advances" etc. but it just doesn't work. Here is a link to Sport Rider's article from 2004 on the XB12 and the Ducati 1000SS. 

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0312_buell_xb12r_ducati_ss1000/index.html

The article states what we have found on the track. You have two bikes that are about the same weight as an SV ( full tank, off the showroom floor ) yet, as the article states "Both pump out close to 100 horsepower." Compared to the Suzuki SV650 @ 70 hp and the Kawasaki 650 at about, oh yeah, 70hp, the Ducati and Buell are not even in the ballpark with true Lightweight class machinery. The reason this was not immediately noticed was that the two larger bikes were not developed in our league immediately. The SV had been due to it's long history. So, you had worked to the limit of the rules SV's running against off the floor Ducati's and Buells. A good rider had a chance. Now that the Ducatis and Buells have been developed, that chance has passed.

So fast forward.... The best your suggestion will do is to put off the inevitable. In only 3 more years, the Ducati 1000SS will be eligible for your L10 class. Then a year later, the Buell. The scene is now the same....

I am very sorry if the Ducati 1000SS and the Buell XB12 are not competitive in middleweight. That is where their power to weight puts them. The answer to this point has been to toss them in LW and tell the LW guys and gals to "buy a new bike" as you so eloquently stated. I agree with you, that is the wrong answer.

You are definately walking down the right path but I feel the answer is in proper classification not "aging."

I have a 2000 R6 just screaming "put me in coach"!

Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 29, 2009, 02:17:44 PM
I am very sorry if the Ducati 1000SS and the Buell XB12 are not competitive in middleweight. That is where their power to weight puts them.

Ok, so how much was my power to weight on my XB12R?  I've raced a number of bikes, and the XB12R in production trim isn't any middleweight. 

Then, if there is some way of coming up with some kind of power to weight ratio, move SV1000's to middleweight.  They'll still get hurt there.


K3, it's at least an interesting idea.  Keep running with it. 

Not a bad idea Chris. Just keep them as an addition to 4 classes (LWSB, MWSB, HWSB, ULSB) Maybe make the plates Green with white # for AM and Black plate with white # for ex. Dunno about other regions, but superbike fields here are not that big. This could add some to it.

Last time I was at a track day I saw more cool new bikes than old bikes!! So those track day guys that wanna race are gonna sell their 2009 MV Agusta or Ducati or GSXR1000 or CBR1000 and buy a ten year old bike?
Nope.

not flaming just saying

Aw geeze - not this crap again...  It is a LW series, not SV Cup.  The air-cooled displacement limits were not changed, but, main line manufactures built bikes were met the rules and were competitive.  Same thing happened in the late 1990's when the SV displaced the Hawk on the basis that the Hawk 3 valve 650 twin motor is uncompetitive against the 4 valve SV motor.  Yes there were complaints from the former LW riders, but most adapted and moved on to accept the SVs (if you can't beat them, join them).  The fact that there was a 7 year period where nothing new was produced to contest in the classs doesn't mean that LW should be the sole property of SV riders.

If we want real LW racing back - lets re-write the rules to go back to the day of Fizzers, EX-500's and Hawks battling it out!  I would consider selling my Ducati and racing an FZR 400 if the rules were re-written to an extent that it would be competitive - but that would absolutely mean exclusing the SV650's as they are in comparison more of a MW bike against the Fizzer than the Ducati is vs. an SV650.

Time moves on.  Accept that unless you are an exceptional rider your Stock 1999 SV 650 isn't competitive in LW Superbike anymore.  You are free to upgrade if you want.

Forgive my blutness on this issue as well, but, I don't think that racing in any existing class is meant to be in-expensive.  As a competitive venue there will always be people with money to thow at a bike to make it faster.  The only way I can think to keep it cheap would be to create a new class with claim rules where any bike could be "claimed" by another rider for some arbitrary amount (say $3,000?).  This would ensure that nobody has incentive to sink too much money into their bike as somebody else would just claim it and it would be their competition the next weekend...

Just my $0.02.

George

Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 29, 2009, 02:17:44 PM
Chris, while I was originally cheering your post, reality set in.  The problem with your solution is that it is at best, temporary. One of the things that has dessimated the LW classes (I agree they should be kept entry level and affordable to attract competitors) is the allowing of much more powerful machinery into the class. I have been given justifications such as "technological advances" etc. but it just doesn't work. Here is a link to Sport Rider's article from 2004 on the XB12 and the Ducati 1000SS. 

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0312_buell_xb12r_ducati_ss1000/index.html

The article states what we have found on the track. You have two bikes that are about the same weight as an SV ( full tank, off the showroom floor ) yet, as the article states "Both pump out close to 100 horsepower." Compared to the Suzuki SV650 @ 70 hp and the Kawasaki 650 at about, oh yeah, 70hp, the Ducati and Buell are not even in the ballpark with true Lightweight class machinery. The reason this was not immediately noticed was that the two larger bikes were not developed in our league immediately. The SV had been due to it's long history. So, you had worked to the limit of the rules SV's running against off the floor Ducati's and Buells. A good rider had a chance. Now that the Ducatis and Buells have been developed, that chance has passed.

So fast forward.... The best your suggestion will do is to put off the inevitable. In only 3 more years, the Ducati 1000SS will be eligible for your L10 class. Then a year later, the Buell. The scene is now the same....

I am very sorry if the Ducati 1000SS and the Buell XB12 are not competitive in middleweight. That is where their power to weight puts them. The answer to this point has been to toss them in LW and tell the LW guys and gals to "buy a new bike" as you so eloquently stated. I agree with you, that is the wrong answer.

You are definately walking down the right path but I feel the answer is in proper classification not "aging."

Quote from: George_Linhart on November 30, 2009, 03:23:56 PM
Forgive my blutness on this issue as well, but, I don't think that racing in any existing class is meant to be in-expensive.  As a competitive venue there will always be people with money to thow at a bike to make it faster.  The only way I can think to keep it cheap would be to create a new class with claim rules where any bike could be "claimed" by another rider for some arbitrary amount (say $3,000?).  This would ensure that nobody has incentive to sink too much money into their bike as somebody else would just claim it and it would be their competition the next weekend...

I agree with that.  I think it might be hard for CCS to implement.

Now, if a group of riders got together within the confines of the opportunities available from the organization, one could do anything.  A bunch of Kansas City riders talked about getting Ninja 250's to race in a class.  No one really needs the wood or anything.  Just racing between competitors.  Additionally, out west they have the guys that compete in the CB160 program too.  Really, a small group of guys just need to get together and do it. 

Most are part of the unofficial SV series as it is...

Quote from: George_Linhart on November 30, 2009, 03:23:56 PM

Time moves on.  Accept that unless you are an exceptional rider your Stock 1999 SV 650 isn't competitive in LW Superbike anymore.  You are free to upgrade if you want.

How about if I buy a new set of tires this year?


Sorry you think my post is crap.

Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 30, 2009, 05:37:07 PM
How about if I buy a new set of tires this year?

Only if you start from the back....









Pointing counter race...LOL!

Understand that I don't own a bike which would be legal under my "10" propsal.  I'm not fishing for some class to race in myself.  I also wasn't trying to address the gripes of any particular group of riders.  My goal was merely to start a discussion on how older bikes could be given a chance to be competitive, since new bikes have become so expensive that younger or less wealthy enthusiasts can't afford to race them.
I had a friggin blast racing EX500 and FZR machines back when they at least were in with a chance.  It would be great if the guy with the rusty pickup and the old, beater bike once again had the incentive to try racing.
Trackdays are fun but they are not racing.  As I said in my novel, Highside, "Better a racer for a moment than a spectator for life."  I'd just like to see the next generation of dirt-poor speed freaks have a chance to compete.  Racing changed my life forever.  I love it and want to see it survive these tough economic times.

how did this become a discussion about LW competitve bikes?

Box that arguement up and put it in drawer for later discussion... how would these new rules impact the MW and UNL classes?  would it still be on "borrowed time"?

Good framework chris, might be something to look intp further!  :thumb:

I'd be cool with this category, and would grid up in it.  Would actually be cool to make it an UNL race- run whatcha brung type of race, regardless of displacement.  10 years and older would be perfect, because it wouldn't automatically be a "vintage" class persay.  I kmow there is an UNL category now, but given the modern machines, it is often a one sided battle.  Putting 10 years on the bikes would be a blast, if for nothing other than getting to see some cool bikes get back on a track.

+1

add 3 dyno classes pay an extra 10 bucks to pay the dyno guy(everyone wants to know how much there bike makes anyway) and run in the class you fit in 100 200 300hp or whatever  no mess no fuss just  outlaw all aftermaket ecu's so you can't run multiple maps.  everyone has these problems nascar f1 cart they all are trying to control costs. they are tighter on there rules though. we are wide open look at supersport as long as you have a stock air filter your ok. how about tech marks your tires so you only can run one set a weekend .and if you change you got to the back. one of the problems is there are to many classes and not enough time and man power to police anything. double the number of laps halve the number of classes and make some real class rules.   of course none of us want's that.    or run 3 classes 3 amateur 3 expert practice sat til noon lunch then one or two heat races then sun more heat races than 3 main events. the heat races set the grids and the main event is 10 or 15 laps we all get the same track time the fast guys filter to the front the slow guys still ride and i build a sub 100hp motor so i don't get pounded  in the 150hp class. kinda like flat track does but everyone rides. the same way every stock car track does evey saturday night   with the dyno no more your bike makes too much hp for the class or 2 valve 4 valve water cooled air cooled wrong frame or cases .  but it would only work if there is more time between races  hence the 3 classes and more laps . i'll shut up now

Quote from: Ducmarc on December 01, 2009, 07:30:43 PM
  ..... double the number of laps halve the number of classes and make some real class rules.    

So now you've got 1/2 as many entry fees to pay the track rental bills.  Do you double the entry fees to make up for it?  Don't think that'll fly!

I raced on takeoffs all year :) Now everyone knows my secret :)

Here's a org to race your old bike in.

http://www.ahrma.org/

AHRMA requires 1982 or older machines.  Unless you're trying to race a KZ900, you're SOL.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 02, 2009, 01:52:22 PM
AHRMA requires 1982 or older machines.  Unless you're trying to race a KZ900, you're SOL.

Actually, IF they are still doing BOT ( Battle of Twins) you can run the SV, Buell etc.....

Quote from: gpz11 on December 02, 2009, 10:09:28 AM
Here's a org to race your old bike in.

http://www.ahrma.org/

Isn't this a CCS forum and not AHRMA? As the original post stated it was for bikes that didn't fit Vintage but still were owned by CCS riders.

Mark

Quote from: skidMARK on December 02, 2009, 05:26:33 PM
Isn't this a CCS forum and not AHRMA? As the original post stated it was for bikes that didn't fit Vintage but still were owned by CCS riders.

Mark

Florida still runs Vintage classes, and SouthWest has 2 events at Firebird which have Vintage classes.

Quote from: backMARKr on December 02, 2009, 04:05:14 PM
Actually, IF they are still doing BOT ( Battle of Twins) you can run the SV, Buell etc.....

And they have singles classes, two stroke classes, and a class that puts them all together with triples too.  Really, there are classes for most all new bikes except for four cylinder bikes.

Just wanted to suggest a class where inexpensive, otherwise obsolete bikes could provide entry level competition and beef up CCS grids.  Don't care about AHRMA.  Don't personally own an old bike to enter in an old bike class.  Don't have a personal agenda...  :banghead:

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 02, 2009, 07:28:22 PM
Just wanted to suggest a class where inexpensive, otherwise obsolete bikes could provide entry level competition and beef up CCS grids.  Don't care about AHRMA.  Don't personally own an old bike to enter in an old bike class.  Don't have a personal agenda...  :banghead:

I think it's an idea with some merit for a class within a class.  But obsolete doesn't always lead to inexpensive.  As an example, see AHRMA. 

Yeah, show me any racing that's inexpensive.

Inexpensive racing is a oxymoron.

:biggrin:

Quote from: gpz11 on December 02, 2009, 09:06:04 PM
Yeah, show me any racing that's inexpensive.

Inexpensive racing is a oxymoron.

:biggrin:

Not true!! I raced my dog to the mailbox today. Didn't cost me a dime. He won. I got 2nd. 

I'd mentioned in my original post that tires, travel and entry fees are a reality of racing.  My idea was that a new racer could buy an old Srad, R6, CBR F or the like, already race prepped with some spares for a couple grand instead of dropping 10-15K to buy and prep a new machine.  Likewise, an older racer who has retired rather than update might still have one in his garage. Given a venue to run older, less expensive machines, these people might race instead of doing trackdays.  I've no doubt that a motivated individual could build a completely HRC kitted Honda or Full Yosh Gixxer that was ten years old but seriously, would there be any joy or real point in spending new bike money to prep such an old machine?  (Pay no mind to the rumor that I just bought the 2000 World Superbike title-winning machine on EBay...)

Quote from: TrophyGal on December 02, 2009, 05:29:44 PM
Florida still runs Vintage classes, and SouthWest has 2 events at Firebird which have Vintage classes.

Florida Region cancelled the vintage classes in 2009. We the riders have taken a poll, taken names and offered a committment of participation for the coming year. The vintage package have changed a little to accomodate more machines, run a limited schedule and possibly offer a "Williams Cup" at the end.

Quote from: Super Dave on December 02, 2009, 07:33:33 PM
I think it's an idea with some merit for a class within a class.  But obsolete doesn't always lead to inexpensive.

But you gotta admit it can be done and have a reasonbly competitive platform for any beginner racer. My FZR600 was first bought for $1500 and my total build is $5500. It would have been much easier and cheaper purchasing a bike such as the current F2 for sale for $5000. My cost for running the FZR600 was $500 for the weekend in the Florida Region schedule whcihc includes Saturday all day practice, and two races on Sunday.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 02, 2009, 10:31:51 PM
I'd mentioned in my original post that tires, travel and entry fees are a reality of racing.  My idea was that a new racer could buy an old Srad, R6, CBR F or the like, already race prepped with some spares for a couple grand instead of dropping 10-15K to buy and prep a new machine.  Likewise, an older racer who has retired rather than update might still have one in his garage. Given a venue to run older, less expensive machines, these people might race instead of doing trackdays.  I've no doubt that a motivated individual could build a completely HRC kitted Honda or Full Yosh Gixxer that was ten years old but seriously, would there be any joy or real point in spending new bike money to prep such an old machine?  (Pay no mind to the rumor that I just bought the 2000 World Superbike title-winning machine on EBay...)

I do believe this idea has merit and it would provide something not so costly for the new rider to try his hand. It would beat the other scenario of that same new rider using his brand new or two year old street ride to try racing. For $1500 that rider can try his hand at racing without fear of destroying his $8000 machine.

Then there were the sportsman classes now Thunderbike and F40. This is where I have raced my FZR600. I have also found that my Ultralight legal Ducati 800 is just as quick as my FZR600 with me on both of them.

As an entry level bike the FZR400 is a great platform. $700 for initial purchase and set-up, 60hp, 130 laps on a set of Bridgestone slicks, and loads of fun to ride.

Mark

If what you're getting at is competitive racing, why not simply have a dyno and a combined rider/bike power to weight ratio.  Wouldn't matter what year the bike was, just make the power/weight ratios equal.  Given equal tires and close suspension, ... I think that would make for some close racing. Perhaps you'd have modern 600s racing against old 900s or 750s, but I think the point is you could get a cheap old bike and compete.

xseal, in a perfect world, your plan is the answer.  In reality, it requires a chassis dyno, an accurate set of scales and operators trained to use these devices properly.  Now all that must be available at every race, which requires time and money.  Even AMA, with the cooperation, equipment and manpower of series sponsor Dynojet, has been unable to consistantly make this happen.  The AMA doesn't have to be in as many places, some on the same dates, as CCS does.  So your idea gets an A+ for intelligence but a D- for logistics.  Sad, because as a fat guy, I like the combined bike-rider power to weight ratio idea a lot!  Watch me race ultraminiscule flyweight on a nitrous Busa!

like Angele whatever her last name is now in NHRA , they changed from weight of bike to weight of bike and rider.  still drop a few classes add some laps up the entry slightly use the extra time to dyno the top three and pay the dyno crew a few bucks    i don't think the goals we want are really obtainable  though  1 make racing cheaper and 2 make larger grids but 2 makes 1 more improbable  i guess one of my thoughts is do we really want to stay on a sprint format or pay slighty more and go to longer races   to me it seems you have 2 or three guys in each food group swaping positons in every race so what's the difference if you race 4 6 lap races or 2 12 races the the outcome will be the same. me and markie raced hard in thunderbike this year. it was generally the same 3 guys on the podium  kevin mark and chris all year usually in that order and that would be the order in every light weight class if our bike was legal .  you can look at your grid spot and tell where you are going to be. there's no mystery just look at practice lap times and i knew what wood we were getting unless someone screws up  and as far as old 600's their all in the back of F40     how about  classic cup race with only out of production bikes or pick a bike that is not being made and there's a ton of like carbuated sv's or an  all caburated class, that wipes out all the last 4 or 5 years and makes the748 haters happy   this whole topic is hopeless

Quote from: Ducmarc on December 03, 2009, 09:13:50 PMthis whole topic is hopeless

LOL!  Now that's a statement to put in a signature...

First, some clarification on the 1000 DS motor:

In stock form, off the showroom floor, a strong DS will make around 80+/- RWHP, depending on the model (the airbox accounts for most variance). I'm hoping that the new S2R I just bought will make 85 in full SS trim. My current bike, an S2R in mild SB trim, makes 95 on the dyno; I could get another 10-15 HP relatively easily, but I'm not planning on it anytime soon in the interest of motor longevity AND developing MY skills more. Now, for comparison, Kevin VanEngen's SV made 85 HP, Hernan Martinez's SV made 92 (both weighed 20+ lbs. less), and several of the Buells on the grid made 90+ HP as well. How is this not equitable? (And how is that considered  MiddleWeight power??) It sure seemed like we were all on more or less equal footing out there. (Well, I'll admit that my bike was kind of a class overdog at Daytona..)

Now, back on topic: Racing is expensive. Doesn't matter what kind. Bicycle, tricycle, automotive, boat, motorcycle, go-kart, mailbox sprints, whatever. There will always be an initial outlay, operational expense, maintanence costs, etc, and then, you go to the track, get your ass handed to you, and go about spending even more money in an effort to be more competitive. Well, a lot of people do. So, as stated previously, even if classes like this were created, they'll just end up like every other class:

For example, I do have a bike that would be eligible for the class you propose; my current "B" bike, which is a '96 Monster 900 in Superbike trim which makes maybe 85 HP at the rear wheel (and which was also more than competitive in the LtWt Am classes before I sorted out the new bike.) And guess what? Over the period of time that I've owned the bike, I've easily spent more on it than I have on the S2R, which I bought brand new. Of course, one wouldn't have to go this route, but already, if this class was created, relatively ultra-competitive bikes  already exist which will fit, and therefore, you're already back at Square One.

So, now what? Spec classes? Like the Ninja 250 classes? Maybe, but now, you're looking at a narrow-focus bike which won't be competitive in other classes, thereby essentially limiting the races you'll run, thereby making THAT bike a relatively expensive proposition when factoring in the dollar-to-race ratio.

I'd suggest this:
1. Deal with the fact that racing motorcycles is inherently expensive.
2. Realize that, especially at the club level, it's 90% rider, 10% bike, or something along those lines.
3. Decide how much you want to invest in time, money and effort to achieve the best possible results. If you can't invest enough, for whatever reasons, then
4. Get over it. Life is just unfair sometimes. Quit trying to change the paradigm to fit your needs/wants. It's racing, and for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but come on. Personally, when I fail, I don't try to change the parameters; I try harder to succeed, and if I'm limited financially or otherwise, well, too bad for me, but so it goes. If I do succeed, well, hurray!, I guess I earned it. Honestly, I definitely wouldn't keep crying about how expensive/unfair/addictive/evil racing is, especially if I wasn't even currently participating in the sport.

When I decided to go racing (in '08), I entered the classes that my bike (the '96 900) was eligible for, and did the best I could. Considering that, ultimately, the goal of racing, winning, is at least simple in concept, if not execution, why does it need to be any more complicated than this???

Ok, I'm going to go find a ladder now, because this damn horse is freaking tall.

Ten years ago, Lightweight was an entry level class, at least at the amateur level.  There aren't any entry level classes now.  No offense but if you're racing something that says Ducati on the tank, you haven't got a clue what entry level means.  (BTW, entry level guys don't have backup bikes, either.)

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 05, 2009, 04:26:51 PM
Ten years ago, Lightweight was an entry level class, at least at the amateur level.  There aren't any entry level classes now.  No offense but if you're racing something that says Ducati on the tank, you haven't got a clue what entry level means.  (BTW, entry level guys don't have backup bikes, either.)

Well, take it back further, you'll see that it changes period by period.  When I started racing, there were a lot of RZ around from the RZ Cup races, and the EX500 came out.  People would build both bikes.  RZ's pretty much would become TZ's.  Then the FZR400 came out.  And there were all kinds of parts that were available in addition to some generous Yamaha contingency.  You could drop a lot of money on an FZR400.  650 Hawks came out, and they became popular with some Kool-Aid drinkers...LOL!...and ram air boxes were built, reverse cylinder heads with custom exhaust, etc...How about the early 1200cc Buells of the early 90's? 

So, back to the core thing that you're saying in this last post, K3, entry level opportunity...

Was that your intention?  I guess I originally looked at it as this being an opportunity for everyone.  That there would be another classification within a class where "old" bikes would have a handicaped finished based upon some kind of a structure of time.  That can be hard as would you like it to be a fixed period of time (easiest), or what?

If you'd like to present a proposal to the CCS community and CCS, it really needs to be spelled out in a similar fashion as it is stated in the rule book. 

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 05, 2009, 04:26:51 PM
Ten years ago, Lightweight was an entry level class, at least at the amateur level.  There aren't any entry level classes now.  No offense but if you're racing something that says Ducati on the tank, you haven't got a clue what entry level means.  (BTW, entry level guys don't have backup bikes, either.)

A 2-valve Ducati is as entry level as it gets when 18 year old kids can go buy a 180 HP bike off the showroom floor. I was a Ducati enthusiast before I ever did a track day, so, when it came time to go to the track, I built the '96 Monster out of a (then) 8 year old, 7000 mile streetbike which I purchased for (I think) 4200.00.  I stripped everything off I could, threw on an exhaust, clip-ons, upgraded masters, and rearsets, and headed up to Gratttan. The motor was bone-stock, made maybe 72 at the wheel. That was 5 years ago, and I've had the bike ever since, so of course, there have been upgrades and modifications. This is natural, especially considering my tendency to refuse to participate, whenever possible, in our disposable, engineered-obsolescence prone society.  Anyway, riding that bike, in that tune, for a year taught me at least 60% of what I know (which, admittedly, isn't much). Hell, guys start out on the aforementioned 1000s all the time.

The fact that I have multiple bikes stems from the fact that, also aforementioned, I'm an enthusiast. Oh, but they're Ducatis, you say. So what? Double income, no kids, etc. And, they're the cheapest Ducatis there are. Dude, I'm no high roller; I'm a plumber. I work my ass off, I like the bikes, I don't sell them when they're paid off unless I want to. Am I supposed to feel bad about this? I haven't ridden on the street in 2 years; instead, I'm at the track whenever I can make it, so why not dedicate more bikes to the hobby? Besides all that shit, go back and look at suggestion #3. I'll commit as much as I am able to attain my goals; If this is more than you are able to commit, then consider #4. Believe me, it wasn't easy running 2 bikes; I'm paying my Discover down as we speak. If your financial situation differs, that is not my problem.

For the record, in a way, I've always regretted my predilection for Ducks. They are more expensive (although not nearly as much as everyone thinks), SVs do the job very well, and I can go just as fast on an SV as I do on my bikes (which, admittedly, is not terribly very). However, SVs don't kindle a lot of passion in me, so there it is. The pragmatic Farmboy loses, while the wild-at-heart, devil-may-care, intensely enthusiastic (yet strangely and discordantly insouciant) Farmboy reigns victorious.

Entry level is only as basic or complex as a rider makes it. There is a wide spectrum of implementation. I choose to do as much as I am able to facilitate whatever success I can realize, and it would be the same level whether I was racing a 10 year-old bike, or a 70 Hp bike, or a scooter.

No offense, but sometimes I think you just don't have a clue.

Man, this still-towering old nag is reeeally teetering.

Quote from: Farmboy on December 05, 2009, 05:50:49 PM

No offense, but sometimes I think you just don't have a clue.

:lmao:....but BOY can he talk!!!    ( and for me to say that about ANYBODY is sayin' A LOT!)

that was FN funny Jim!

Really, I'm not up for a pissing contest.  Given my non-existant budget, sheer physical size and general lack of talent, the box of trophys in my attic is enough for me.  You might be surprised if you dug through that box.  I stopped racing when I'd accomplished as much as I felt I could.  At this point in my riding career, I estimate that unlimited money would only be worth 1-2 seconds per lap improvement, which still wouldn't make me an Expert winner.  As a white plate racer, I will always be up against guys who are better at it than I am.  Unless CCS comes up with a "K3 wins" rule, I won't be earning any more first place trophys.

I have a clue.  You seemingly can't read.  I think that the words "low cost" and "entry level" have been in about every post I've made in this thread.  I think I may also have mentioned at least once or twice that I personally have no bike and no intention to race the classes I proposed.  (That sorta shoots down the argument that I'm trying to rewrite the rules to my own benefit.  For that matter, I have no plans to race in 2010 or beyond and won't unless some pals ask me to do an enduro with them.)  I'm almost sure that I said at least once or twice that the old bikes would be a race within a race, IE, they would only race each other.

Perhaps I'm misguided to think that people might give racing a shot if they could buy into an old bike for a couple grand and have a place to race it competitively.  It worked for me.  I used to joke that I'd never raced a bike from the current decade.  In my day, you could do that, do it cheap and still have a shot.  I don't see that opportunity now and made a suggestion as to how it might be accomplished.  This fall, a friend of mine was offering his 99 R6 with pipe, jet kit, valved forks, race shock, clipons, rearsets and Hotbodies for $1500.  He got no takers.  Such a bike would be a winner in the 6-10 class I proposed.  Entry level and affordable?  Well, that fits my description.

It's far easier to be a naysayer than to be an idea man.  Go ahead and maintain the status quo.  Obviously, it's really working.  I remember being thrilled that I'd cracked the top ten for the first time.  There were over 20 amateur bikes in that race, which was held at Gateway, traditionally a track with a low turnout.  Been in any 20+ bike amateur lightweight grids lately?  Maybe if racing were more affordable...

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on November 29, 2009, 11:26:13 AM


Flame away!

No pissing contest here; just obliging your request.

What, exactly, is stopping anyone from doing just what you suggest, that is, buying a bike on the cheap and racing competitively? Anyone can do it now. Perhaps we should define "competitively". Does it mean winning every race hands down and going away? Or does it mean improving one's skills while having a good time dicing it out with others of similar skillsets and racing to the best of one's abilities? A bit of both? Or does it mean that we have to create classes wherein those who have limited financial resources can win their own box of trophies? Hmmm?

Also, do you understand relativity? Of course the lightweight class (for example) is more expensive than it was 10 years ago. EVERYTHING is more expensive than 10 years ago. Also, 10 years ago, I'd bet that noone could believe that you'd have to run 9's,10's, and 11's @ BHF to even have a shot at winning a middleweight race. Hell, last year you'd have to run that fast to win an AM race!  However, this is the nature of things.  Nowadays, you don't even have a shot at a pro ride unless you start riding before you can walk, and it sure doesn't hurt if your parents can spend thousands to foster your talent, so how in the world can you not expect club racing to become that much more (relatively) expensive and (relatively) competitive?

Good for you that you're an idea man. Kudos, congrats, attaboy. I just don't happen to agree that this particular idea would magically revitalize the club racing scene. As stated previously, these classes already exist in AHRMA, they'd go the same route as the current classes, etc, etc, etc. But then, what does it matter what I think? Present your idea like Dave suggested, and maybe you'll save us all. Or, put together a CB 160 spec series like he also suggested. But don't get your panties in a bunch just because someone disagrees with you, especially when you extend the very invitation to do so.

Quote from: Farmboy on December 05, 2009, 05:50:49 PM
Dude, I'm no high roller; I'm a plumber. I work my ass off, I like the bikes, I don't sell them when they're paid off unless I want to. Am I supposed to feel bad about this? I

Hey Jim - you know my favorite expression?  Racing a Ducati is God's way of letting you know that you have too much money.

Seriously, you are right on point with the SV thing.  Many, many times I have wished that I didn't have this sick and un-natural attraction to the clacking dry clutch and booming exhaust note of my Ducati.  SV parts are cheap and easy to find.  There are lots of them at the track if you need to borrow spares.  Set-up tricks are well known and documented.  You can make one very light...  Yet I keep investing time and money into my 2005 1000SS just because I like it.  Maybe, just maybe, if I keep upgrading the bike every winter and can get bit more racing in over the next few years I can have both the bike and my riding sorted in time to be legal for the proposed +10 class.

While I am thinking about it, since Ed Key's bikes are all first gen SV's, couldn't he find a 1999 SV frame and be legal for the class?  That sure is what I would call an entry level bike!

My bike is going into the shop to get the +2mm intake valves and head work done this winter.  We are also going to re-spring the bike and do some suspension work - as I have started riding faster I am now bottoming the forks at every track.  There are probably a handful of other upgrades we will make as well.  I am looking forward to racing you when you are wearing white plates and starting from the same wave.

George

See my earlier comments on SCCA Club Ford and Hobby Stock racing.  Other forms of racing have classes that allow for a cheap buy-in.  I think CSS would benefit from such a setup as well.  I define competitive as having a chance to win.  If a winning machine costs ten grand to build, how many first time racers are going to step up to that level of expense just to see how they'd do?  Go ahead and tell a potential racer about the glory of racing for last place and see if he steps up with his heart and checkbook.  See, you don't have to sell me.  I've raced for last place and had a ball doing it.  You have to sell the potential racer so he doesn't just head for trackdays instead.  If you don't care about having a chance to win, can't you have just as much fun dicing at a trackday?  Isn't racing about at least trying to win or working your way up to where you can?

Lightweight is a screwed up mess these days.  There are some crazy machines allowed in.  They are both very fast and very expensive. Smaller, less expensive bikes like the SV or Kawasaki need a ton of work to be competitive against them.   Short of starting over, I don't see how that could be fixed.  Worse, so many have so much invested in Lightweight that you'd wind up screwing them all if you tried to reign in the current rule structure. This is why I proposed old bike classes where the machines would have a low buy-in.

Since I don't race any more, I'm really not motivated to try and change the rulebook myself.  As a qualified observer, I made a suggestion.  I'd expect that if the suggestion had merit, someone might run with it.

It's fine that you disagree.  The problem is that you disagree by questioning my motives and implying that I'm trying to create a class to fit my own needs, rather than something that might help participation.  You chose make it personal, rather than presenting logical reasons why a less expensive form of racing would be a bad thing.  As I said last post, I'm not looking to engage in a pissing contest.  Go ahead and explain why a class where a $1500 to $2500 motorcycle that had a shot of winning in an amateur class would hurt racing rather than help it.  Leave out the personal attacks and just answer that one question.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 09:52:20 AM
Lightweight is a screwed up mess these days.  There are some crazy machines allowed in.

I'll bite.

What are the crazy machines?  If we're getting into Superbike and GP rules, well, really, all bets are off.  Thunderbike?  It's lightweight based but certainly getting away from reasonable.  Still fun.

LWSS is a class for most of the things you're talking about.  Even a '99 SV is pretty darn competitive yet in that class.  I don't know of many that are $1500 let alone $2500. 

If you do hear of a nice SV for 2500.00, let me know. I'll  buy that pile, disguise myself as an amateur, enter a SS race, and win.

It can be done under the current class structure. I rode Roy Hefner's SS-legal SV last year; it was nothing special, just a nicely sorted bike on which I (or any decent rider) potentially could have won (and definitely podiumed) any lightweight race. So, again, I ask, do we just need more classes that poorer, less skilled riders can win a plaque in?? And again, I posit that for someone to win, someone else has to lose. Are you telling me that the current crop of trackday riders are a bunch of spoiled, entitled, impoverished ragamuffins who won't try racing unless they're guaranteed a trophy? Tell you what: put together a series for these poor souls, and I'll donate my box of trophies for redistribution. That should help defray the costs even further.

Qualified observers should realize that it's the rider, not the bike. Oh, and that maybe the economy has something to do with grid size. Last I heard, attendance was was down at track days, too.

It's not exactly personal. However, I admit that I suck at disguising my annoyance at the idea that we have to dumb down, or simplify, the classes to entice new riders. Again, I think it's really simple. If you have a bike already, pick the classes it's legal for and go race. If it's only legal for a class or two, so be it. If you want to race more classes, or you don't have a bike, pick the classes you want to race, and equip yourself accordingly.  Spend as much or as little as you want, but no matter what, it's still going to be expensive, and oh, I'm sorry, but there's no guarantees for success. That's racing (and life, too.)

Pshaw.  (I always wondered what that meant)  There's a nice 1999 on fleabay right now with a Buy it Now at $1800 that didn't sell for that amount the first time it was listed.  $2,000 is plenty for that vintage and type of bike and with a little work would be just fine for the type of class suggested.  

As for LWSS being the appropriate place for it, that's only one class and it wouldn't be competitive against SV's that have 5X (10x?) that amount invested.  Relative to an $1800 downpayment, those machines, as admirable as they are, qualify as a "crazy" investment to a beginner.

I suppose we could all just "deal with it", "realize it", "accept it", as someone so creatively proposed.  We wouldn't want to try anything new, would we?

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 09:52:20 AM
Go ahead and explain why a class where a $1500 to $2500 motorcycle that had a shot of winning in an amateur class would hurt racing rather than help it.  Leave out the personal attacks and just answer that one question.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 11:32:41 AM

I thought I just illustrated that the classes already exist.

Hey, how about this for an idea? PI2, as in "price index"? That way, riders who spend a disproportionate amount on their bikes will have their results adjusted downward to level the playing field for those riders who have to race on hamster-powered machines!

Of course, now we have to define "disproportionate", not to mention at which point what number of hamsters negate  the financial advantages of the non-hamster set, and now, with all these hamsters, is there a disproportionate amount of money being spent on hamster chow??? And, inevitably, there will be hamster-doping debacles...

Here is a breakdown of the first ½ of the 2009 season win percentage by brand to help you with this one. Remember Ultralight SuperBike and Lightweight SuperSport are what CCS considers "entry-level" classes. The "inexpensive" SV still wins the lions share of those classes.

Y'all just continue arguing amongst yourselves... :biggrin:

ThunderBike   Win Percentage
BMW   3.70%
Buell   40.74%
Duc   29.63%
Kaw   3.70%
Suz   22.22%

SuperSport   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.30%
BMW   3.30%
Buell   13.40%
DUC   20.00%
MZ   3.30%
Suz   56.66%
   
SuperBike   Win Percentage
Bimota   6.67%
Buell   6.67%
DUC   23.33%
Hon   16.67%
Suz   46.67%

Grand Prix   Win Percentage
Aprilia   3.45%
Bimota   3.45%
BMW   3.45%
Buell   10.34%
DUC   17.24%
Hon   24.14%
Suz   31.03%
Yam   6.90%


Ultralight   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.70%
Duc   18.52%
Hon   3.70%
Suz   74.07%
Yam   3.70%

Well, how can one police a class to mandate a $1500 to $2500 motorcycle?  Let alone a $5000 one. 

Age doesn't necessarily mean that it will be inexpensive, but it is possible.  Buy an old H1 or a CB750 and race with AHRMA, then watch as the costs build.


Most of current club racing operates around a few premises of initiating new riders.  One of them is that they start their addiction on their current bike.  Another is that some will acquire wisdom and start racing on a slower, less costly machine.  Neither avenue means that the end bike is inexpensive, as we should all recognize as racers.  At some point, it is reasonable to consider, minimally, springs, brakelines, maybe a shock, certainly a catchpan in addition to full bodywork, and the list goes on and on through aluminum spacers, cryogenically treated rotors, ceramic bearings, impregnated metals, surface topography finishes, Ti, etc. 

Any $500 bike can still be made expensive with those "little touches".  It just doesn't follow that an old bike would be inexpensive.  (Let me use my H1 as an example that started with a set of free Denco cylinder heads and a lot of four bikes for $600.)

Often, the question for a non racer is what would it take for them to want to compete?  And that is the barrier:  they don't necessarily want to compete.  There is certainly a very different mind set in levels of competition within the competition community, let alone comparing a person that enjoys the freedom and sterility of the traffic flow during a track day. 

Dave, I'm not stepping into the Lightweight debate.  I have no stake in that argument.  From what I can see, everyone in that fight, from CCS rulemakers to the riders of various makes of machine, are all justified and 100% correct from where they are standing.  Too many agendas and only one set of rules.

My 10 proposal was not intended to replace or solve the problems of any given class.  The idea was to create new classes, starting as an extra wave in existing races and competing amongst themselves.  Old, inexpensive machines that a beginner can redily find and afford would make up these classes.  The idea was to provide entry level, cost effective racing and boost attendance.  It sure wouldn't hurt that some of these entry level guys would probably step up to modern machines in a season or two.

Arguing that Ed Key could build a 99 SV and dominate the L10 class is a moot point.  Since the races run simultaniously, he'd have to give up all the classes he runs now to run those four L10 races.  Ed is all about competition at the highest level.  Why would he want to go kick entry level butt instead?  Since this class is focused on entry level racers, you could concievably make it amateur only, though there are probably some salty experts out there who would jump right in if the class existed.

Let's all remember back to when we were amateurs.  Did we know how or where to get the good stuff?  Who built your suspension and engine when you were an amateur?  Most of us did the work ourselves.  It takes a few years of competition for a new racer to figure out what needs looking after, what he can do himself and who he should pay to do the work he can't handle.  A first time racer, 10 class or no, is not going to show up with a machine prepared to Ed Key standards unless he bought it from Ed Key.  Even then, this racer wouldn't be experienced enough to set that bike up and maintain it. And as Farmboy has pointed out, if he couldn't ride it, the bike wouldn't make him a winner.

If the unthinkable happened and a new racer (or an older one) showed up with a 1999 ex-factory AMA Superbike championship winning machine and a factory mechanic to maintain it, well, what can you do?  Of course, if you made the 10 class follow SS rules instead of SB, it would prevent that issue and the only guys who'd hate that would be the owners of heavily modified older Lightweight machines with displacement increases and alternative suspension and brake setups.  Most 600 and larger machines retain their original displacement, brakes and suspension components when they go Superbike, concentrating on stuff like cams, compression and headwork.  Making an old 600 or 1K Superbike 10 legal if the class ran SS rules would be as simple as finding another engine.  The LWSB guys change everything but the VIN number...

Quote from: CCS on December 06, 2009, 11:49:03 AM
Here is a breakdown of the first ½ of the 2009 season win percentage by brand to help you with this one. Remember Ultralight SuperBike and Lightweight SuperSport are what CCS considers "entry-level" classes. The "inexpensive" SV still wins the lions share of those classes.

Y'all just continue arguing amongst yourselves... :biggrin:

ThunderBike   Win Percentage
BMW   3.70%
Buell   40.74%
Duc   29.63%
Kaw   3.70%
Suz   22.22%

SuperSport   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.30%
BMW   3.30%
Buell   13.40%
DUC   20.00%
MZ   3.30%
Suz   56.66%
   
SuperBike   Win Percentage
Bimota   6.67%
Buell   6.67%
DUC   23.33%
Hon   16.67%
Suz   46.67%

Grand Prix   Win Percentage
Aprilia   3.45%
Bimota   3.45%
BMW   3.45%
Buell   10.34%
DUC   17.24%
Hon   24.14%
Suz   31.03%
Yam   6.90%


Ultralight   Win Percentage
Bimota   3.70%
Duc   18.52%
Hon   3.70%
Suz   74.07%
Yam   3.70%

Thank you, Kevin, very informative, but I'm now very psyched about a hamster-powered spec class. I think THIS idea has legs - lots of little furry ones!!

Think about it:

-It's a "Green" series, which I understand will be the next great innovation in our sport. No petroleum products and  very little noise (except for all the panting). Oops, I guess there is the issue of hamster waste, but wait! Fertilizer! That's it! Now, racers can defray their costs by going into the organic fertilizer business! Oh wait, there's also the issue of emissions, um, that is, hamster farts. We'll have to do some environmental impact studies to determine the ecological impact and whether it's offset by the new, revolutionized fertilizer market..

-It will also revolutionize the hamster pet industry. Of course, we can't run those guys for too long. I propose a new hamster powerplant every time we change the tires as a good basic guideline. This will be fair to the rodents while providing the marketplace with an abundant supply of heart-healthy, "race-tested" (Trademark rights!! Ka-Ching!!) hamsters, thereby helping to regulate the currently volatile, and often abused, hamster marketplace.

-REAL money can be made in the performance-enhancing drug market. That's right, I'm going to cynically propose that we don't try to hide our dirty little hamster-doping secrets, rather, we embrace and encourage the practice so that we can subsidize HUGE purses in the series, thereby encouraging GARGANTUAN grids! If we do this right, we can build this thing into the direct feeder series for MotoGP!!

-Last but not least, chicks dig hamsters, and they dig racers, so there is an obvious synergy to be realized here. Now, we're all getting laid, too! (Sorry to all you female racers out there. This doesn't benefit you, as we all know what kind of men love hamsters. Again, sincerest apologies, but I'm sure that you'll see the other benfits of the proposed series, and lend your full support.)

I'm waiting by my phone so we can discuss this further. I'd encourage we move quickly on this before someone steals it..

At this point, I'm sorry I even gave the entry level issue any thought, much less made my idea public.

Oh, hey.  Here's another really bad idea.  Take older, supersport legal machines, offer them a few extra little mods that an aging racebike would need to keep running but nothing crazy and give them their own class.  Being outdated, these machines will be inexpensive to buy and will provide an entry level alternative.  Wait, SCCA calls that Improved Touring and it's what happens to a car which is no longer new enough for Showroom Stock.  Hey, the idea of giving outdated, inexpensive machines a place to play is nothing new.  It happens everywhere else.  If you guys don't like it, that's cool.  Either way, I can't really feel stupid for having suggested it.

Farmboy, you seem to know quite a lot about hamsters...

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 12:35:55 PM
Farmboy, you seem to know quite a lot about hamsters...

What can I say, I'm an idea man.

Seriously, lighten up. You know you were laughing your ass off..

And you know equally well that I couldn't possibly resist that hamster comment!

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 12:15:01 PM
My L10 proposal was not intended to replace or solve the problems of any given class.  The idea was to create new classes, starting as an extra wave in existing races and competing amongst themselves.  Old, inexpensive machines that a beginner can redily find and afford would make up these classes.  The idea was to provide entry level, cost effective racing and boost attendance.  It sure wouldn't hurt that some of these entry level guys would probably step up to modern machines in a season or two.

Ah, ok, so, your idea is to segregate them too? 

In a market situation like today, which seems familiar to what we saw in 1989 and 1990, further fragmenting a class could have further effects in reducing participation in a finite community.  I had though that these L10 machines would be within the race, just scored separately.  So, a rider on a 1999 R6 could finish fifth in MWSS overall and first in L10MWSS. 

Could hurt contingency opportunities in that way with segregation.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 12:15:01 PM
Let's all remember back to when we were amateurs.  Did we know how or where to get the good stuff?  Who built your suspension and engine when you were an amateur?  Most of us did the work ourselves.  It takes a few years of competition for a new racer to figure out what needs looking after, what he can do himself and who he should pay to do the work he can't handle.  A first time racer, 10 class or no, is not going to show up with a machine prepared to Ed Key standards unless he bought it from Ed Key.  Even then, this racer wouldn't be experienced enough to set that bike up and maintain it.

Ed Key's standards are Ed's.  That's simple.  And mine are mine.  I have different abilities and financial constraints.  Going further with that, there are amateurs anymore that have paid to have very substantial builds in their engines and suspensions. 

Each rider has standards that they would meet, and I guess I have a hard time recognizing where having a special class is going to gain a substantial let a lone tiny number of entries.  Bikes older than ten years are not barred from competition as it is currently.  There are even AHRMA racers in the area that choose not to race at CCS events.  Similarly, there are track day riders that have ten year old bikes that they could race but choose not to. 

In the current state, older bikes are already becoming Thunderbike legal.  Is it unreasonable for a new racer to consider a nice $1200 F2 for that class?  Finally, are there requests at CCS for this? 

I'll restate again that I sort of like the L10 idea, if it was within the current class structures, just a second set of results.  Wouldn't require additional down time for more grid rows or additional waves. 

Another comment on the Improved Touring class in SCCA.  The well financed guys sell their outdated Showroom Stock cars and buy new ones.  The Showroom Stock guys who've raced themselves broke keep their old cars and move to Improved Touring.  New racers on a budget buy these depreciated Showroom Stock racers and go Improved Touring because they can't afford to buy and prep a brand new car.  So some current racers who would have left the sport hang around and new budget racers join up.  The result is that entry fees are paid and SCCA remains solvent.  Basically, this is the gist of the 10 concept.  If CCS doesn't see merit in that within their structure, so be it.  Just a suggestion...

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 01:00:29 PM
Another comment on the Improved Touring class in SCCA.  The well financed guys sell their outdated Showroom Stock cars and buy new ones.  The Showroom Stock guys who've raced themselves broke keep their old cars and move to Improved Touring.  New racers on a budget buy these depreciated Showroom Stock racers and go Improved Touring because they can't afford to buy and prep a brand new car.  So some current racers who would have left the sport hang around and new budget racers join up.  The result is that entry fees are paid and SCCA remains solvent.  Basically, this is the gist of the 10 concept.  If CCS doesn't see merit in that within their structure, so be it.  Just a suggestion...

But is that a linear comparison?

I'd need an SCCA rules structure lesson, but you're saying that well financed production racers become improved touring.  So, go from production to superbike?  Or...

Going back to the first page, my idea was that the "10" bikes have different color number plates and start as the last wave in a given race.  Under one set of "10" preparation rules, a "10" bike field could start behind the SS, SB, GP and GT grids in their displacement catagory, meaning four races per weekend for these old machines.  They would only be racing each other.  CCS could award trophies to the top three based on their overall performance for the four race weekend, which would encourage the 10 guys to hang around and enter all four races.  They would not be scored with the other classes in the sprint, so contingency wouldn't be affected.

My guess is that there would not be contingency available to 10 class racers.  Such is the disadvantage of racing an affordable bike.

Basically, IT allows old SS cars an engine rebuild, race shocks, headers and free flowing mufflers.  Also, you can ditch the stock wheels for same size race wheels.  These changes are allowed because by the time it is outdated, a car will have used up these components and the race parts are both better and cheaper than stock replacements.  For bikes, you could just maintain the SS rules for the 10 class.

The well financed racers stay in SS and buy a modern car to replace their outdated one.  The broke ones stay in IT because they already have the car and it's cheaper to just replace the aforementioned wear items.  The new guys buy the old SS cars because they are ultra-depreciated from what it cost to buy one showroom new and race prep it.  Then they saw off the stock exhaust, add a flowmaster and go have a blast on the cheap.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 01:09:22 PM
Going back to the first page, my idea was that the "10" bikes have different color number plates and start as the last wave in a given race.

So, they would then have to struggle with changing plates if they desired to enter other classes?

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 01:09:22 PMwhich would encourage the 10 guys to hang around and enter all four races.

Current racers have a lot of those opportunities already, but I wanna say that the average number of entries per rider has dropped from four per rider to closer to two.  Kevin would have more data on that. 

It would be easier to surmise that getting current racers to enter more races would be less costly than attracting new racers.  That's kind of a standard business practice. 

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 01:09:22 PMThey would not be scored with the other classes in the sprint, so contingency wouldn't be affected.

Well, they would affect contingency.  If a contingency sponsor requires eight entries to a race, and the LWSS class, as an example, is fragmented into another class, L10LWSS, then there may not be enough entries in LWSS to pay those competitors thus reducing the opportunities and possible returns.

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on December 06, 2009, 01:18:26 PM
Basically, IT allows old SS cars an engine rebuild, race shocks, headers and free flowing mufflers.  Also, you can ditch the stock wheels for same size race wheels.  These changes are allowed because by the time it is outdated, a car will have used up these components and the race parts are both better and cheaper than stock replacements.  For bikes, you could just maintain the SS rules for the 10 class.

The well financed racers stay in SS and buy a modern car to replace their outdated one.  The broke ones stay in IT because they already have the car and it's cheaper to just replace the aforementioned wear items.  The new guys buy the old SS cars because they are ultra-depreciated from what it cost to buy one showroom new and race prep it.  Then they saw off the stock exhaust, add a flowmaster and go have a blast on the cheap.

So, I'm not seeing any kind of a ten year rule in there.  Looks like racers race based on the budget they have or can hopscotch on credit cards either way. 

Any person that wants to race can by a set of race bodywork for their older bike and go racing.  Hey, even a 1990 GSXR750 has 5.5 rear wheels and 3.5 fronts with cartridge Showa forks.  And that's legal in Thunderbike. 


Sorry to put you through the fire K3, but it just needs more justification. 

Oh, I forgot to mention that a car is only Showroom Stock legal for so many years from new and that an Improved Touring car can't be newer that the most recently expired Showroom Stock car.  IT was created so that old SS cars weren't merely orphaned junk.  Sorta like my 10 proposal.

Hey, I have nothing to win here.  I just made a suggestion.  In the end, it doesn't matter what any of us think.  If CCS sees it as a good thing, they will adopt it.  If not, no big deal.  At least the subject got people thinking and talking about ways to create an entry level opportunity.

Ok.

Exhibit A (utilized completely without permission):

Alex Macevicius (AKA Mopar) 2008 Midwest Amateur Results:

BHF Amateur GTU - Champion
BHF MW SS - 2nd
Midwest region GTU - 3rd
MIdwest region MW SS - 6th
Midwest region MW SB - 6th

... On a Honda 600 F4i (what year did they make those? How much can you buy one for?), and Alex didn't even make every event.

Exhibit B (again, sin permiso todamente):

Jon Gu 2008 (AKA "WTF is he doing now?") Midwest Amateur results:

BHF- Amateur Ltwt SB (Champion), Ltwt GP (Champion), GTL (2nd), GTU (4th), MW SB(3rd)
Midwest region - Ltwt SB(2nd), Ltwt GP(3rd), GTL(2nd), GTU(4th), MW SB(2nd), MW SS(4th), MW GP(5th)

... On an oooold R6 (True, he bought a VERY nice R6 and brought it to RA, but we all know how that turned out), and THE most Craptastic POS SV that we've (again) all had the extreme displeasure of ever seeing. I mean, come on, that thing was more worn out than Lindsay Lohan after a free weekend at the American Liquor Distributors / Skankalicious Spectacle Convention. It was Positively Painful to gaze upon. He actually told me that he had previously fried the motor by racing a full sprint with no coolant in the damn thing - and he raced it like that for the whole damn year! He'd stuff us in the tight corners on the first lap just so we could flip him off when we passed him back like he was standing still after the track opened up, and then, we could all laugh about it later. Moreover, if he had spent any money or time on maintenance and set-up, at all, his results would have been even better, scratch that, waaay better.

So there are 2 riders that I can think of who did very well on less-than-top shelf equipment, hell, I'd go as far as saying, ENTRY LEVEL bikes.

Now true, Gu raced for a couple of years prior, but he started and finished with both of those (did I mention completely and utterly filthy, crappily suspended, ill maintained, nasty, funky, ugly, fugly) motorcycles. Alex, I'm not sure, I know he rode track days prior, but then, these are exactly the type of potential racers we're talking about; guys who do well at track days and decide they want to test the waters. They both had what would be considered significantly less competitive machinery (or complete pieces of shit), but they raced on it anyway and were more than competitive. Would anyone be terribly disappointed with those results? Hell, we're not even talking all Lightweight, we're talking Middleweight, which I'm pretty sure is the most competitive class - Right?

So, I'm sorry, but I just don't see the need for a special olympics class-within-a-class so that more people can feel good about themselves. There are more than enough current choices in CCS for a decent rider to have an instructive, satisfying, and at least relatively successful entry-level experience. And, if they aren't so decent, well, they'll either quit or stick with it and try to do better, which is the same exact thing that plenty of good riders do as well, for various reasons.

Put it this way. If this class you propose had existed when I started, I wouldn't have raced in it. This is what the Amateur level is for, entry riders. I'd have looked at these classes as a handicap class, which is what they are, and I'd prefer to do as well, or better than, other riders while riding what is perceived to be a less competitive bike. I really enjoyed doing trackdays on the old M, when guys used to laugh at my bike, until we'd ridden on the track together, and then they weren't so giggly. There'd be no way in hell I'd want to ride a handicapped class as this is the antithesis of what racing is. And seriously, someone tell me if I need to explain my version of what racing is. I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of riders would feel the same way (also, I think these classes  would be parasitic, as Dave said).

So sorry, I think CCS has "entry level" covered. Did anyone here ever see the movie "Idiocracy"? Our society is already well down the road of homogenizing everything down to the least common denominator, and forget about Darwinism. The thing which most appeals to me about racing is the fact that it's so pure. If I succeed, it's all me. If I fail, me again. The bike is a part of it, but everything I do with regard to preparation and implementation of the equipment is part of my effort, so really it all just comes down to me again. And I guess that personally, I feel the Amateur class is challenging enough to be part of the learning curve, but not too challenging. In other words, appropriate. I also guess that some might not find it so, but I don't think this type of class is the answer. Track days provide more than enough opportunity for true entry level experience. The next step is amateur level club racing, and I think CCS already provides this opportunity quite well.

Alright, I've fallen off my horse, and now I can't get up because the old nag died and keeled over right on top of me. I wish I could kick her a bit...   

I applaud you Chris for putting yourself out there with an idea that makes sense. The idea goes along with the CCS statement that there is a place for everyone to race. I know you tell me that my 1991 FZR600 is a middleweight but putting that bike in the middle of the expert middleweight field could be suicide, instead the "10" year class makes much more sense when the idea of racing is competition.

We are quick to bash, but seldom come up with ideas of solutions. In my mind track days have it's place. Track days do compete with the racing organizations. Just look at  some of the comments or advice being given, "practice your craft on a few more track-days before racing". Then we wonder why the grids are getting smaller. They are getting smaller because of the mentality that if you are new you shouldn't be out there racing.

I support the idea of the "10" year class. I also support the idea of the Pirelli sponsored class. It is inviting to me to run in that class next year, I hope it takes off. We complain about not having enough contingency, awards or return. But what do we do to help?

Chris, thanks for the ideas maybe something will come of this.

Personally, I like watching the old bikes run. The project I am currently involved with is trying to revive the Vintage class in Florida. I have committed to compete in the Vintage class with it's limited format of 3 race weekends and probable 3 weight classes and have a final "William's Cup" at the end of the season. Yeah it isn't the vintage rules of ARHMA or WERA but it is our own. Hopefully we will include more of the bikes that have been just sitting in garages and hopefully inspire some others to build new/old bikes.

Mark

Alright, seriously, I'm not bashing here. I can see possible merits of the suggestion, but a couple of points come to mind.

First, isn't a 91' FZR 600 already legal in Thunderbike?

Second, if it's not safe to grid up in the middle of an expert race, where do you grid up? At the end of the experts, but before the amateurs? Because theree are some damn fast amateurs out there, too. Or do you grid after the amateurs, in which case, you both a.) end up in  the tailend/middle of the am field (which is a place I'd rather not be, especilally in the beginning of the race) or b.) end up getting lapped by the regular experts while you're among the ams as well? So now what? Another whole series of stand-alone classes? One stand alone class in addition to Thunderbike?  I doubt that anyone would be happy with just one more class to race in. Or maybe, in addition to running a "10" class, you run it a class down, i.e., a "10" middleweight runs in the lightweight catagory; that seems like a good proposal. (Doesn't it? Maybe I'm not a total dick after all. But then again..) As Dave said, a proposal as it would be stated in the rule book covering all the possibilities would be helpful, but it would seem that Kevin already spoke his mind, so this is all moot anyway. And again, I think CCS does what they do very well; unfortunately, they can't make everyone happy.

Smite me all you want, K3 literally invited a flaming. Writing/debating style aside, I disagree with the suggestion as it stands, so I'm asking questions. ( And honestly, I was seriously annoyed by the whole trackday rider to racer thread. It struck me as being very negative about a sport I love, and which I see as having far more positive attributes than negative ones. It would have been more appropriate to respond to THAT thread, but I'm human, I err.) Perhaps some of my posts are abrasive, but they are generally meant to be tongue in cheek in nature anyway. Such is the nature of a public forum , especially when a writer refuses to use emoticons to lend context. Whatever. If we're going to be so sensitive of criticism, maybe we shouldn't stick our necks out. Having said that, Rick's a good guy; I'd be more than happy to join his club, so have at it. This is all just a way of passing time until we can all get back out and do the thing we truly love to do anyway.

I dont know if anyone has looked at ebay or any of the BBS sites, but old bikes aren't cheap.  Most working mid to late 90's sportbikes are in the range of $1500-$3000.  Most of those are street-bikes anyway.  I personally feel that anyone who isn't racing has more or less given up.  If I want to make a race weekend, I just work harder.  Those marquis local guys that are super fast and make all the weekends,  they are probably equally talented and hard working at their job.  Racing, I guess, is kind of like adopting.  My wife and I wanted to adopt a child 3 years ago.  We learned that it would cost about 20k.  We no longer want to adopt.

Some very good points in response and well taken in consideration.

Funny thing is I still have my '91 FZR600. When i bought it I did so for a cheap racer. $1500 got me into a bike where the SV would have been $4000 at the time. Another $4000 later I had a machine that did yield me a Couple Amateur Championships in LW F40 and Thunderbike. Two years later I won my first Expert Championship-Regional of course. I did accomplish this agasint some very competent machinery including an SV that reportedly cost some $50K to develop. I think the rider was the biggest part of the equation.

In the following couple years I bought and developed a Ducati 800 just to keep a points lead in the Ultralight class that I was leading which the total cost of build thus far has been $10K.

I believe the whole idea of the "10" year bike is to keep and/or allow folks that wouldn't normally have raced a chance at entry level racing. I race the lightweight stuff and not the middleweight or bigger because I believe it best fits me. At 48 years old my reflexes aren't as good as when i was much younger and I believe the smaller stuff allows me more time to react and thus be safer.

This is club racing and I would like to see it stay around and even grow to what there was in the past. I bring others to racing and enjoy the competition it brings. Recently my older brother has started racing with CCS along with my two son and I.

Can we find a way to make some of these ideas work? My thought of how Chris' first post is if it can survive every negative response, then just maybe it is a good idea.

As far as racing my FZR600 I have done just that in GTU as an Amateur. Grid in the 21st spot and finished in 9th. As far as gridding up today it seems as though the general thought was that the most dangerous part of a race is the start where all the bikes are pretty close together. Putting the "10" class bike at the back of the grid would allow the faster bikes to start up front. I don't believe it is likely that a ten year old bike will outdrag a newer bike-not saying it can't happen.

There is an F2 down here in Florida that is for sale for $5000 fully race prepped and it is well prepared. So my point is there are still older race bikes out there including the SV stuff that many could buy. There are a couple 99 R6 recently on the Jennings forum for not much money at all. Build it! but will they come?

Mark

I really don't get the hostility.  Let's say the concept actually happened.  If some old bikes are gridding up back there behind you, if they aren't stealing your points or contingency money, if the schedule isn't altered, if CCS is making a few extra bucks on entry fees and if some new people come out to race, who's baby is actually being raped?
I mean, honestly.  Yes, it's fun to preach and beat your chest.  Yes, if that's what you're into, you can argue until the other person gets tired of you and gives up.  Thing is, what's the fight about?
Who cares if someone could build a $100K SRAD?  Who cares if Melvin Snodgrass won Unlimited GP at the ROC on a 99 R1 shod with Conti Tourmasters and running on three cylinders?  Who cares about ANY of the arguments presented?  Bottom line is, if the classes happened, who would get hurt?  If it meant ten extra entries per event, just ten, what would that do to help CCS survive over the course of a season nationwide?  Or does that matter?

Quote from: Farmboy on December 10, 2009, 12:39:43 PM
. Having said that, Rick's a good guy; I'd be more than happy to join his club, so have at it.

Jim,

To achieve "Rick Weaver Professional Shit Disturber" status...you must achieve shitdisturbingness within no more than 2 lines of text. At this point, you are just a glorified comer....
got to get those tomes you are writing in check. :biggrin:





btw....congrats on the championship kudos in RRW.....got my copy yesterday.


FISH ON!

OK, flame thrower set on light candle mode.....

If say class X regularly has 8 entries but one of those racers has an older bike and he goes to the 10 class now Class X has 7 entries. If sponsor Y pays 2 deep for 5 entries and 3 deep for 8 entries then the final podium spot will no longer get contingency money. If I was a podium regular in class X I might feel a little, I believe you put it, raped by the new class

Also the whole new class discussion tends to include the elimination of some other class which tends to put the riders in that class very much on the defensive as well. As has been mentioned, many of the bikes of which you speak have been trickling into Thunderbike and ULW as well

Quote from: backMARKr on December 10, 2009, 11:26:42 PM

Jim,

To achieve "Rick Weaver Professional Shit Disturber" status...you must achieve shitdisturbingness within no more than 2 lines of text. At this point, you are just a glorified comer....
got to get those tomes you are writing in check. :biggrin:





btw....congrats on the championship kudos in RRW.....got my copy yesterday.


FISH ON!

Yeah, Mark,I don't see that happening.

And thanks! I saw it last Fri at my shop; I walked in and they were all smiles and shit, and I ask "What?"
so they say "did you see it?" and I was like "Cool, but don't I look like a total cheesedick in the podium pic?" and they go "Naw, you just look totally happy". Word! Definitely a memento for the season.

You coming to the MW banquet? Cause I've hung with you when YOU were drunk, but we haven't gotten drunk together...

Quote from: HAWK on December 11, 2009, 12:26:51 AM
OK, flame thrower set on light candle mode.....

If say class X regularly has 8 entries but one of those racers has an older bike and he goes to the 10 class now Class X has 7 entries. If sponsor Y pays 2 deep for 5 entries and 3 deep for 8 entries then the final podium spot will no longer get contingency money. If I was a podium regular in class X I might feel a little, I believe you put it, raped by the new class

Also the whole new class discussion tends to include the elimination of some other class which tends to put the riders in that class very much on the defensive as well. As has been mentioned, many of the bikes of which you speak have been trickling into Thunderbike and ULW as well

Paul, nicely put.

So I finally read some of the middle pages of this thread. My conclusion is that we do away with all classes and run one big class where every bike is legal. No need for parity just run what you brung and if you can't afford it then it is your choice not to run.

Statistics can be deceptive especially wen it is read for one point. My real life example is in one of my track day crashes and at the ER the Trauma Doc tells me, "motorcycle are dangerous and you should wear a helmet". My guess is he never read my chart. He also remarked based on his statistics that he has, "cut off many a motorcyclist limbs". I pondered the thought and came to my own conclusion. Being in the EMS field I respond to many a call to find someone that has died on the toilet. What conclusion should I draw from that. I can't dispute the numbers but I wonder if the numbers could paint a picture with more accuracy. For example how many times did that Bimota win as compared to  to the amount of times it entered a race. Is there a Bimota that is legal for Ultralight? One more thing on Statistics; I would love to see numbers of participation in past years where the economy was good and the previous years where it wasn't as great. Seems like to me that participation was down even when the financial situation was good.

In the end I gotta side with Ducmarc on this one, "this thread is hopeless".

Competitive for me is racing Marc Miller's $5500 ebay special Ducati 748 and have a chance at the (roughly) $100,000 Bimota or $60,000 Ducati.

Thunderbike could be loosely based on Lightweight but I was of the impression it was also Heavyweight Sportsman. The "10" class is more like the Sportsman classes I would think.

Mark

 :pop:

Quote from: skidMARK on December 11, 2009, 02:19:13 PM
Competitive for me is racing Marc Miller's $5500 ebay special Ducati 748 and have a chance at the (roughly) $100,000 Bimota or $60,000 Ducati.

Hell ya Mark. Do it!  :cheers:


As someone who is new to this and this also doesn't affect me as my bike is a 2007, I think that K3 makes great points and has a really good idea. I also think though that alot of you other make great points too. I agree with Ducmarc as in this thread being hopeless. Unfortunately for ones that would benefit from this class, it seems like the most appropriate answer for this at this time is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" (is that a way to put it that makes sense?) That is what seems to strike me. Just my .02 cents

You are right on that one Devin. The other default answer is, "if you want to be competitive then buy a bike that is competitive".

As for me I like to see different bikes out there. I would like to see the old TZ of Henry DeGouw make some passes around the roadrace course. It's not only about who is the better rider but who can put the best package together. I just know that my 1988 FZR400 with whaever I do to it just isn't gonna stack up against a 1000 anything.

Maybe we should go on displacement alone and if your 1000 isn't fast enough to keep up then "buy one that will".

I just know we can't fix it with this thread, but I am sure the leaders of the organization look at it and sometimes, maybe just sometimes they go HUH!

As Ducamarc has said to me, "maybe we are part of the problem trying to race this 748 in the LW GP class. I did surprisingly well this past weekend turning some pretty fast times(for me) at Homestead-incidentally in front of Mr Elliott. I guess I may have convinced them to keep the 748 out of Lightweight.

After-thought: Since the SV(Suzuki) has been so dominant in all classes why was it made legal for Ultralight?

Mark

Because the displacement limit for LW liquid cooled twins went up to 800cc (non-desmo)

I don't get it

Quote from: skidMARK on December 11, 2009, 02:19:13 PM
Being in the EMS field I respond to many a call to find someone that has died on the toilet.

I don't care what you race, if it decreases your odds of dying on the toilet, that simply HAS to be a good thing...

 so the 1.33 with a 5 might have shot us down?   seriously i would have liked to talked to Kevin if i would had known he was there.  with his stats we must be a red state all the lightweight races have been won down here by either a bimota or a ducati except for Steve on the 2 stroke. ultralight has a little more variety only because you have been draggin ass . and i can't remember when someone has shown up with a buell even with a payout.   looked like we have already stacked the races up enough already.  unless your going to run on sat. not sure when your going to race another class. it also looks like most of the "entry level " riders are in middle and heavyweight since we had so many middleweight amateurs that there was odd and even practice.   either grid with the practice times or pay for a dyno

Quote from: Ducmarc on December 11, 2009, 10:52:45 PM
it also looks like most of the "entry level " riders are in middle and heavyweight since we had so many middleweight amateurs that there was odd and even practice.

So are the lightweight grids getting smaller because more people are starting out in middleweight and heavyweight?
Or have the middleweight and heavyweight classes stayed the same and lightweight grids shrunk over the years?

I am not sure if the lightweight group has shrunk but I would venture to say that all have shrunk. I believe that the AM were split because they tends to crash more(I kid).

There are more new riders on inline 600's than in the lightweight rank. I think more from opportunity than anything else. A new rider on the street will purchase a 600 and then do some track days, then go onto racing using the only bike they have. No need to go get another $1500 ten year old bike because it just ain't competitive. "I wanna win after-all".

Some more numbers are needed to answer that accurately.

Mark

that's what i'm thinking more people start now with a 600 on the street then knock the lights off and go to a trackday then decide to go racing. the people on the street who are riding a lightweight are either old or looking for gas mileage.it's us cheap guys who are trying to run lightweight    but lightweight an't cheap no more   i hear though that kevin has nixed all movement for the 748 or 996 into other classes

Quote from: Ducmarc on December 13, 2009, 09:22:40 PM
i hear though that kevin has nixed all movement for the 748 or 996 into other classes

Yep.  Hoo-#$%ing-ray.  I'll be doing Supertwins, and only Supertwins in 2010, I suppose. I guess the super-huge, gut wrenching HP of a 10 year old, 500 lb, 115 HP machine was "too much" for middle weight or Thunderbike status.  Ya know- for guys like me, K3's idea would, in fact, generate more gridding opportunities.  Too bad my tank doesn't have "Buell" written on it....I could run in almost every class if it did.

Weeee.

Oh, and to the "go get a new bike" crowd- I am married with three kids. Just being able to race is a miracle. I am truly racing what I had around to race. Is that your fault? Nope.  But it just isn't that easy to go out and buy the new hotness, when you also have four human beings relying on you for food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

And no one ever made any sense of this to me: It's "parody" for me to race Buells in Supertwins, but NOT fair for me to race those EXACT same bikes in Thunderbike?  Seriously?  Makes no sense.  Thanks, CCS!

Ugh.

Ski,

Just pick up the pieces and race what you can. This topic is nothing diffeent than the past year's conversation. Put a 748 motor in your chassis and race Thunderbike.

Typically the class and rule structure is there for the current bikes. The later models will have more performance and it is what the Manufacturesrs want to sell, then the after market product suppliers. The tire manufacturers don't care what bike you are racing as long as we are using their product.

The AMA organization is very narrow focused in who participates and with what bike. CCS is a little more open to the mere mortals but if you and I want to race our ten year old bikes in a competitive venue then we must form our own organization. Don't be frustrated that CCS doesn't cater to your bike. Go out there and have some fun and when you turn 40 do the F40 also.

If you want I will trade you my Ducati 800 and you can run all the classes you want.

Mark

who can  keep that clunker running for more than 2 races a weekend anyway ! I got it set on destruct now . back to work on the 900

Marc,

That 748 of yours has shown some great speed. Put a good rider on it and you will see even better results than what it has lately.

The 900 is a true lightweight machine and yes, it is time to develop it even more.

does anyone show up on ninja 250'S in the south east?     I want to race my 250 and was wondering if I would be alone.     I  know that WERA has a class but i think i would prefer racing with CCS.    does anyone think that I would piss off other racers having to work around me if I tagged on the back of the LW classes?  obviously it would have to be a race to be the fastest 250...       

I also think this would solve the problem of the original post.

Again.....flame away...

Florida region will be racing with the Southeast at Jennings in April. Bring that thing out and sign up for at least Ultralight and we can have some fun. My brother will be on my son's FZR400 and he is also just learning. You will have a good time against others riding the MZ620, Ducati 750, FR400, and maybe the EX500. You will have a blast especially at Jennings where it is more about the rider and corner speed.

Mark

if i just wanted to win i would put fernando or barrett on it I'm sure jason edmonds would.   i think he's been jones'en for a ride but what's the fun in that.  there's  plenty of good riders with out a ride out there right now.  but that old china man underestimates himself

My LW SV will just have to compete with 800's and kitty is not skeered- Thanks K3 for turning her into a competitive future entry for me- You  are definately offering some great possibilities for the fuure sucess of this sport! I read Highside ,every 2 wheeler who crouches for speed, should. Happy New Year to ALL! :thumb: