:biggrin:
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/576/5099/Motorcycle-Article/Buell-Not-Dead--Buell-Racing-Continues.aspx
I realize at this point it's still early in the big change for Buell, but I can't help but wonder about Homologation requirements concerning Buell's built in the near future. The big thing that jumps out at me was the 2nd paragragh in that article where it was mentioned that the only Buell's that would be produced from this point on will be the 1125R model, and that it would be 'for race only' - that's what makes me wonder if it would qualify for anything other than a 'GP' type class in CCS due to availability (how many units will be produced in a year?) and the lack of ability for it to be licensed for the street (at least in production form)? Taking it beyond that I can't help but wonder about the same requirements in AMA?
Yeah, agreed Mike. Really, AMA and CCS have decisions to make. There are also the previous units sold out there too though.
There is also the possibility, and it's just speculation, that he's bound under a non-compete contract at HD which might preclude any activity or announcement about street production at this time.
I'm inclined to think there's more to this than just opening up a race shop, at least I hope there is.
Quote from: dylanfan53 on November 21, 2009, 02:08:17 PM
There is also the possibility, and it's just speculation, that he's bound under a non-compete contract at HD which might preclude any activity or announcement about street production at this time.
I'm inclined to think there's more to this than just opening up a race shop, at least I hope there is.
Yeah, that makes tons and tons of sense. There are dealers with bikes. And there are dealers that can sell parts.
We could speculate about a lot of scenarios. But that is very reasonable.
Good for Erik. HD is crap - talk about a poorly run union shop; I got the impression that the Pa mfg location was run by a militant union. Buell will do much better without HD - they won't have to use harley's tracktor engines. I cannot believe that a non-compete clause would even hold water since they are after completely different markets. Harley is after the older cruiser market and Buell is going after a younger sportier group.
HD is well aware of it's aging market which is why they bought supported Buell for those many years. Unfortunately, having to use the sportster engine killed them.
Pretty sure a little recession had something to do with it too.
Quote from: dylanfan53 on November 21, 2009, 07:27:01 PM
Pretty sure a little recession had something to do with it too.
I agree.
not as much as you're led to believe.
Erik is someone to look up to, the guy is fighting the good fight. GOOOOO ERIK!!!!
Wasn't it back in the '70s that HD had governmental concessions when they were almost bankrupt? Could be that they were AMF then?
Quote from: skidMARK on November 22, 2009, 08:32:09 AM
Wasn't it back in the '70s that HD had governmental concessions when they were almost bankrupt? Could be that they were AMF then?
I think they hit bottom, then Citibank financed them, then AMF bought them as part of their empire of companies. Later, a group of former H-D guys bought it back. I think the government tariffs against bikes 750cc's and above came under Reagan. Hence the reason why there were 700's and 750's in the mid 80's.
Recession issues? Yeah, but, I've said this many times, the state of Wisconsin set up a new tax scheme that forced over $22 million from H-D in this current US and global climate.
Quote from: SV88 on November 21, 2009, 06:14:42 PM
Good for Erik. HD is crap - talk about a poorly run union shop; I got the impression that the Pa mfg location was run by a militant union. Buell will do much better without HD - they won't have to use harley's tracktor engines. I cannot believe that a non-compete clause would even hold water since they are after completely different markets. Harley is after the older cruiser market and Buell is going after a younger sportier group.
HD is well aware of it's aging market which is why they bought supported Buell for those many years. Unfortunately, having to use the sportster engine killed them.
So, Steve, how do you explain how Buell was built from nothing while using the H-D engine? Your points aren't rational.
Eric started in 1983 with the Barton, then went with the H-D engine until 2008. Buell's production and sales numbers were actually very good under the H-D banner. And that was only starting in 2003 under that banner.
The 1125 was announced in 2007 as a 2008 model. It has a non H-D engine. If they will do so much better without H-D, then it would have followed that they would have sold butt loads of 1125's. I don't recognize that as the case.
It changes the game, hopefully, for Erik, as it is a Rotax engine to his specifications.
As for the H-D engine being crap, I had more problems with my 2000 ZX6R and my 2006 R6 than I had with my XB "crap" engine. I also had phone numbers and other contact points to actually get manufacturer technical and parts support that I never had in my previous twenty years of contacts within the industry.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2009, 08:37:45 AM
Recession issues? Yeah, but, I've said this many times, the state of Wisconsin set up a new tax scheme that forced over $22 million from H-D in this current US and global climate.
That too. I don't know what the hell your politicians were smoking up there but IIRC when I read the financials HD was paying taxes at 60%+ at the margin.
Quote from: dylanfan53 on November 22, 2009, 08:55:55 AM
That too. I don't know what the hell your politicians were smoking up there but IIRC when I read the financials HD was paying taxes at 60%+ at the margin.
I'm not from here originally, but it's almost bankrupt like California. Current governor plundered $1 Billion out of the transportation budget, paid from road taxes on gas and diesel, for the general fund. It's a welfare state here.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2009, 08:48:30 AM
So, Steve, how do you explain how Buell was built from nothing while using the H-D engine? Your points aren't rational.
Cmon Dave...its another chance for Steve to take shots at unions....EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF THE UNIONS!!! :blahblah:
Personally, I think its the gremlins....... :err:
Quote from: backMARKr on November 22, 2009, 10:47:14 AM
Cmon Dave...its another chance for Steve to take shots at unions....EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF THE UNIONS!!!:blahblah:
Personally, I think its the gremlins....... :err:
Yeah.
I'm not a big advocate for unions and collective rights over individual achievement, but Harley negotiated the contracts too. I believe that the unions have pulled back to keep H-D viable. I do wonder if remaining in Wisconsin is necessarily in their best interest with that new tax thing.
They sell a huge number of bikes in Wisconsin alone. So, them leaving might be bad for sales. They have hard decisions to make.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2009, 10:56:39 AM
Yeah.
I'm not a big advocate for unions and collective rights over individual achievement, but Harley negotiated the contracts too. I believe that the unions have pulled back to keep H-D viable. I do wonder if remaining in Wisconsin is necessarily in their best interest with that new tax thing.
They sell a huge number of bikes in Wisconsin alone. So, them leaving might be bad for sales. They have hard decisions to make.
Honestly...my dad is/was a Teamster for 30+ years, my father in law is/was Teamster for 30+ years. I have mutliple family members that are UAW (Cat) and IBEW. I am not a hard nosed "Union above all" advocate myself. I often torn between what the unions were and what they are now....I don't pretend to be an expert on any of it. I do know that I get very sick of the pat union bashing comments at times.
I know I am biased, but the Teamsters kept food on the table and everytime one of us got sick, that Central States insurance always came through. I also know (ironically my Dad and I were having this conversation last night) that one uncle that was a salaried "company man" at Catepillar got a darn good salary and retirement and that Catepillar based that white collar, non union salary on what the "militant union lineworkers" were making.....
end of rant ......game on.
Quote from: backMARKr on November 22, 2009, 04:16:45 PM
Honestly...my dad is/was a Teamster for 30+ years, my father in law is/was Teamster for 30+ years. I have mutliple family members that are UAW (Cat) and IBEW. I am not a hard nosed "Union above all" advocate myself. I often torn between what the unions were and what they are now....I don't pretend to be an expert on any of it. I do know that I get very sick of the pat union bashing comments at times.
I know I am biased, but the Teamsters kept food on the table and everytime one of us got sick, that Central States insurance always came through. I also know (ironically my Dad and I were having this conversation last night) that one uncle that was a salaried "company man" at Catepillar got a darn good salary and retirement and that Catepillar based that white collar, non union salary on what the "militant union lineworkers" were making.....
end of rant ......game on.
My dad was in a union, and I have other family members that are in unions.
Yup, it put food on the table through my dad, but it ran its course too. In a world of growth where the world offers competition, the job my dad has is gone. He was retired before it left, but the writing was on the wall probably ten to twenty years before.
Was cool to have dad home when I was young during a strike, but when companies and unions build a job to a point where it's not even rational to think about keeping in house or in country, well, I guess I have to look at the union as being ignorant of actual facts.
I will agree, white collar guys got a good wage as a result. Case was apparently big up here...but it is gone now. GM was down the road in Janesville and it is finished.
Are you required to be in the teachers union, Mark?
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
Are you required to be in the teachers union, Mark?
Yes....IEA/NEA.
I agree the time for the union in its traditional sense is past. What its role ( if any ) is in this day and age....a good question.
My dad and FIL are similar to yours, the last of a generation.
Quote from: backMARKr on November 22, 2009, 06:04:00 PM
Yes....IEA/NEA.
I agree the time for the union in its traditional sense is past. What its role ( if any ) is in this day and age....a good question.
My dad and FIL are similar to yours, the last of a generation.
My wife is in WEAC.
What is their role today? Well, is it about a product all the time?
I'm sure you know of poor workers in your line of work. But there is virtually no opportunity to get those individuals out of the education of students in a monopolized system. I know that my wife and I talk about it.
On the other side, politics in the monopolized school system plays against the whole thing. If a political administrator, principle, or dean just doesn't like you, they can really mess with everything that has to do with your work...in spite being an outstanding educator.
Then there's the idea of
incentive pay for teachers that have good students"...just lower the standards for students and a teacher could generate great averages...all while not giving the students the product that those that are forced to contribute have been promised. I know that I wouldn't want to see some political hack giving out the incentives for that.
Was "a union job" a good thing for my dad? Honestly, it's hard to say. He never claimed to be bright, but he was. He was also a hard worker. So, he could have done something more that would have paid him more in private employment based on his merit as a working man rather than a collectivised person in a system of paid protectionism that eventually helped eliminate the position that was once his. Had he started ten years later and then worked ten years later, he would have had nothing for his work toward retirement.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
GM was down the road in Janesville and it is finished.
Actually J-villes plant is on "stand-by status". I do doubt very much they will ever fire it back up though. GM should be forced to tear it down and clean up the property from EPA issues. The parking lots looks like weed central now. BTW I'm close enough I could spit on the plant. :lmao:
I wont say what I think about unions, but after being fucked over by the UAW twice and the NWCC, well that will give you an idea.
I actually wrote a scathing replies to Dave's HD and Mark's union comments but fully realizing that I'm in a alcohol induced coma particularly after refereeing 4 hockey games today, decided to safe it as a draft and revisit at a more sober time.
I'll go ahead and fill in my response now.....
Quote from: SV88 on November 23, 2009, 01:34:38 AMinsert wilkins scathing rant here
WELL GOOD FOR YOU :thumb:
thank you Tim Struyk for the catch all response for when you really don't give a shit!
Taxes and unions has Harley Davidson looking for new stomping grounds in another state.
Quote from: backMARKr on November 23, 2009, 09:56:58 AM
thank you Tim Struyk for the catch all response for when you really don't give a shit!
:biggrin:
And I feel real bad to have deprived Mark of a good response!! I'm in the worst possible spot(actually worse now that I've been unemployed for 4 months) - middle management - no power, lots of abuse from above and below. I guess I feel some jealosy given that I've never enjoyed high wages along with great job security (provided by many unions).
Speaking of the Buell - HD relatioship, it is my impression that Buell was held back from competing against the Jap bikes because of it's use of the HD engine. Buell is an innovative org. that has come up with many smart designs - wouldn't the bikes have been more competitive with better power plants? I was (only with many others) miffed at Buell's apparent preferential treatment from the race org.; particularly after the phenomenal season they had this year. This attitute reversed 180 deg. when i learned that HD was shutting them down.
On the potential sale of Buell - was Buell ever profitable? The fact that it isn't being sold tells me that it's either a loss center or that there are no buyers out there.
I think it was a "loss center or there were no buyers" was due to lack of marketing it by HD. I dont recall ever seeing a tv commercial for Buell. Seen plenty for HD and the Big 4. Also some HD dealers pretty much treated people looking for a buell or bringing theirs in for service like crap. Sure fire way not to get a sale.
Well, in the heart of a Buell, there is Harley-Davidson. This has been true for a long time. Moto-Guzzi has some neat but old world designs too. There's nothing wrong with it. Even Ducati maintains some air cooled models.
Yes, I would have liked to have seen the XB's be more cost competitive with the machines they were really up against, lightweight bikes.
The liquid cooled engine was a sweet move. Does it have an unfair advantage in the AMA? I still don't agree that it does. It is what it is. It's not a superbike class where the bike is build beyond its origin, a sport based motorcycle. It is not a hypersport. It's in the class of the original Rotax Aprilia's and the SV1000, not in the mold of the Cosworth Aprilia and the race Ducati's.
XB's sold well. It took until 2006 for Buell to produce 100,000 motorcycles. In the next three years, they produced more than 36,000 bikes. Not a bad deal for a small manufacturer. I think Ducati produces around 70,000 bikes a year, last time I remember keeping track.
Dealers bad? No. It's an individual thing. Place the blame with the ones that aren't able to succeed in their local market for the rational reasons. Not even Corse Superbike could stay open with Ducati, Suzuki, and KTM for that matter. I think most would say that they were a "good dealer" too.
Buell could not be sold because it was too integrated with HD. I forget how many patents the bikes have but it is many. From what I heard there was many offers but HD just could not find a way to separate it.
Would the XB be more competitive with different engines? I doubt it, they would be in different classes. Over the last couple years the XB's have won more National championships than SV650s. That is pretty competitive.
I dont give a shit about the business ins and outs of it, Erik Buell is a living legend. The guy has a heart of gold, I think I am going to race a Buell next year.