Why are we not racing there? WTF? I want a straight answer as to why we don't ride there. There are a few tracks I would rather not be at compared to those 2 tracks.
Business decision. Low attendance made them lose money.
FYI ..... I miss going to Gingerman too.
Kevin Elliot told me (in 2006 I believe)...
"Any time they try to run an event that requires driving through Chicago, they lose money"
I really miss Gingerman and ACC north.
But... what can you do?
XIII
I'd rather make the drive than go to Gateway again.
I'm never going to Gateway again. Not worth the money at all. Weren't enougth riders to pay contingency. Worst attendance I have ever seen at any motorcycle event in my life. Dangerous track.
I just saw that they have repaved Grattan on the whole front staight through turn 3. The rest should be done in 2 years.
Can't wait. Love that track.
I'll race Wera if I have to ride there. That track kicks ass!
This year was the first year I had been there. Always heard that it was a fun layout but dangerous. I'll agree that it's a decent layout but it's far too dangerous. I couldn't get comfortable there at all. You can obviously go fast there as Matt, Brian, and yourself proved but the risk over reward is far too great.
I'm sure there's a lot more that goes into deciding what tracks we race than I can imagine, but it would be nice to see a lot more of the midwest tracks on the schedule. Putnam, Gingerman, Autobahn, Grattan, MAM, ... all great tracks imo.
Quote from: Greeny on November 12, 2009, 06:49:54 PM
I'm sure there's a lot more that goes into deciding what tracks we race than I can imagine, but it would be nice to see a lot more of the midwest tracks on the schedule. Putnam, Gingerman, Autobahn, Grattan, MAM, ... all great tracks imo.
Hallett too!!!
This gets talked about every year and never goes anywhere since the last couple times CCS went to Gman the attendance was low. Driving through Chicago and around the lake on a Sunday evening with vacation home traffic is more than most can handle apparently. It's a shame though. I like Gman and Grattan better than most in the midwest.
I like both tracks too but if Kevin loses money then we won't be racing at any tracks. You need to get people to commit to being there in numbers that will make money and then then need to actually show up.
Put together a proposal for Kevin and then follow up with attendance.
Oh and Don, what would you know about driving around the lake? :banghead:
I miss Gingerman also. It seems that the mentality of many living west of the lake is..."I have to drive more than 2 hours to race? I won't be able to sleep in my own bed? I'm gonna have to spend a night away from momma? Nevermind!"
The worst part about the drive is realizing that it took less time for NASA to put a man on the moon then for Chicago to complete 20 measly miles of highway...
I drive through Indy from STL to get to Gingerman... its a lot more miles but actually takes about 1/2hr less than going around the lake.
The old days of racing are over, everybody wants something for nothing. No devotion. I want to race bout only if it does not inconvienance me.
I was at the Wera national Gratten event this year and there were a decent amount of attendees, Why will people travel there for Wera but not for CCS?
Gateway is not a track i will ride at again either, it would really be nice to get back to a regional series instead of a track championship.
Quote from: red900 on November 13, 2009, 08:59:23 AM
The old days of racing are over, everybody wants something for nothing. No devotion. I want to race bout only if it does not inconvienance me.
You can thank the proliferation of trackdays for this. Ample opportunity to "pretend race". I'm gonna take my streetbike and drag my ass around a "racetrack". Then I'll show the pictures to impress my friends! But I'm not gonna drive 3 hours to do it, because I'd rather watch someone else do something on tv then actually go do it myself!
And Gateway sucks so bad it doesn't deserve to be on Google Earth. Its poorly maintained, the layout sucks, its dangerous, the staff are either ignorant, stupid, or jerks, the facilities suck. People keep telling me that the Gateway management doesn't really care about having CCS's or MCRA's business and that's why they won't improve, which makes me wonder why we continue to give them business!
Quote from: HAWK on November 13, 2009, 01:00:50 AM
Oh and Don, what would you know about driving around the lake? :banghead:
I have to fight you FIPs every Friday night just to get back home to God's country. :biggrin:
Quote from: 123user on November 13, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
You can thank the proliferation of trackdays for this.
Yeah, track days. That's it.
So is there anybody on this forum that wouldn't go to Grattan or Gingerman? If so why?
I'd like to see those tracks back on our race schedule. Even just 1 race weekend to try it out.
The only issue that I can recall at Grattan is Turn 9 or 10 the hairpin turn. Short on run off. That was before airfence was ever around. If airfence was placed there I couldn't think of a nicer track.
There is no better feeling than turn 3 off camber downhill back uphill, the jump before turn 5, and the bowl. That whole track rocks!!!
Lets bring back a kind of Great Lakes series again!!
From what I've been told in the past there is more to the story than just low attendance. There is something up with the management at Grattan. So it was a combination of poor attendance and racetrack management that didn't want us (just like autobahn!) With the economy the way it is I will be suprised if there are as many races next year as this year much less adding more! JMHO
Last time I went to Gingermann I didnt find it that bad of a trip. Track looked like fun. WHat turned me off is getting there and being told I have to run such and such brand of tire in supersport (GLRRA was there even though I thought it was a CCS event and unknown to me GLRRA was running this). Hmm I had brand new dunlops on and like hell I was gonna pay another $300ish bucks for tires (wasnt budgeted for the trip).
Dont get me started on Gateway. :biggrin:
What happened to MAM? Track go bye bye?
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on November 13, 2009, 02:26:20 PM
What happened to MAM? Track go bye bye?
MAM is pretty fun and it sure as hell would be nice to have it thrown in the mix instead of the GP region consisting of 4 HPT rounds, 2 Gateway trips, and Road America. Sure that it being left of off the GP schedule is because of Track Addix departure from the CCS.
In my opinion the reason the Great Lakes Region always seems to fail for CCS is because that area is covered by WERA's North Central Region, the times I raced at Gratten back in the 90's (only with CCS) it seemed like quite a few of the racers that actually did show up were WERA racers. The Illinois / Indiana border seems to be a real territory splitter for both race org's, just take a look at WERA, they don't have any Midwest or Great Plains regions.
Concerning the potential Midwest or Great Lakes Region tracks mentioned in this thread that are East of Illinois:
Putnam was a track I really enjoyed racing at back in the late 90's - but the politics surrounding racing there were a joke. Gingerman is probably one of the safer tracks we raced at - but the CCS races there definately had low attendance issues. I haven't race at Gratten since CCS was there back in the late 90's, but it definately was a challenging track - the negatives I remember from back then were definate race surface issues (which apparently are being fixed), and like Farrell said the hairpin could be ugly (didn't Dave Sadowski crash bad there?) but I also remember the 'jump' causing some red flag accidents.
Generally racing survives if you have a supply and demand situation, if a race track is close enough to a mass of population then your chances of the 'fair weather racers' showing up are greatly increased - those are the racers that cause an event to have great attendance (just look at Road America's events that haven't been on a holiday). Enough racers live in the Chicago / Milwaukee / Madison / Rockford / Quad Cities area of the upper Midwest that racing in this area can do well if the weather is decent (with the exception of the percieved current economy). But as soon as you start getting much beyond a 3 or 4 hour drive from a mass of population the attendance is going to start dropping because of the number of people who would have to start missing work in order to race - that 1 factor quickly elevates the cost of racing because your losing wages (and a limited number of vacation days from work) on top of all the costs of racing. For example I've worked 6 days a week for the last 20+ years, up until I quit my last job back in July I had to miss 3 or 4 days of work just to go to Heartland Park - that's almost 1/2 my weeks pay just in missed wages and 3 or 4 of my available vacation days.
Living by Blackhawk Farms I will admit that the trip thru Chicago sucks big time during the weekend traffic jam hours, but that certainly wasn't ever enough to stop me from going to a Gingerman or Gratten event. But if you look at the mass of population on the West side of the Lake that's where your going to be having the majority of racers commuting from, the added TIME and frustration wasted in the commute thru Chicago can be that 'make or break' for many and cause the loss of 'fair weather racers'.
All time favorite regional track: Grattan. No question. I'll race there if it's scheduled. Just need some help transporting my bike from Sicilia.
Russ!!! If you need a commercial location to ship to ( semi truck friendly!) you can ship to my business AND I will get that sucker to the track too! Hope all is well in Italy buddy! :thumb:
I vote for Grattan, you can keep gingerman! Too bumpy and lots a crashes. Grattan is worth the drive. Gingerman has a low turnout because it's usually freezing and rainy when they schedule it and nobody wants to go. The drive around the lake isn't bad if you stop for dinner first on the way home...then drive on thru./
Bring back Autobahn too! That was never promoted properly inmyop.
I'm glad to hear people are bringing this up....CCS should change it too BHFCS.....BlackhawkFarmsChampionshipSeries in the Midwest.
Proposed Schedule for 2010 just in:
Blackhawk
Road Am.
Blackhawk
Topeka
Blackhawk
Blackhawk
Did I mention Blackhawk?
Quote from: F2RGK on November 14, 2009, 10:57:00 PM
Bring back Autobahn too! That was never promoted properly inmyop.
I'm glad to hear people are bringing this up....CCS should change it too BHFCS.....BlackhawkFarmsChampionshipSeries in the Midwest.
Proposed Schedule for 2010 just in:
Blackhawk
Road Am.
Blackhawk
Topeka
Blackhawk
Blackhawk
Did I mention Blackhawk?
I remember having 6 events at BHF and we started the first weekend of april.:biggrin:
Also have to remember not all tracks charge the same rental fees and BHF is relatively cheap compared to RA. Also BHF is pretty much dead center to where most racers live.
Last I heard on ACC is they dont want racing orgs there.
Tommy Mason tried to burn up my bike at Autobahn once..... true story!
He kind of made up for it the next time there though...... grabbed Rob Oliva's fire extinguisher and helped put out the fire of a kids bike as he came off the track in full flame!
Needless to say I'm not a fan of going back to Autobahn - I don't like fire!
I'm totally fed up with BHF (no elevation changes) and it's really a locals expert track. Will be concentrating on podiuming in a real endurance series (CMRA in Texas 4-8 hr races) not like the poor excuses for endo like the ASRA TC (a long GT) or even most of the AMA GT races. BHF is real convenient, the track mangement is great and they've really improved the facilities, however it's probably my least favorite track compared to Grattan, Ginger, Auto S (we won't mention north) and RA.
An easy solution to getting all the cheeseheads to Mi. is to set up a CCS rate for the Milwaukee - Muskegon ferry; it could be an excellent excuse for a cruise party Friday or Thur. afternoons!!. I'd even drive up from Gurnee instead of dealing with the south side and horrible north indiana.
Quote from: SV88 on November 15, 2009, 05:17:19 PMand it's really a locals expert track.
Never was a more true statement made.
But it applies to most tracks until someone really fast from out of town shows up. Who are the past Blackhawk lap record holders? Jensen (ND), Junge (WI, but seldom ever races at Blackhawk), Denning (KS), and Johnson (MN).
Quote from: red900 on November 13, 2009, 08:59:23 AMI was at the Wera national Gratten event this year and there were a decent amount of attendees, Why will people travel there for Wera but not for CCS?
Because WERA has more riders from south and east of Grattan that don't have to drive through Chicago. And their 500 mile trip from Tennessee or Pennsylvania might take the same time as my 340 mile trip from Wisconsin...or less.
What is a locals expert track?
Quote from: Burt Munro on November 15, 2009, 02:09:24 PM
Tommy Mason tried to burn up my bike at Autobahn once..... true story!
Its not like you were ever gonna use it
Quote from: HAWK on November 15, 2009, 07:31:29 PM
What is a locals expert track?
Hawk - I'll answer the question because it is something that Steve and I have discussed frequently.
It is a track where a certain sub-set of racers ride so often they can do very fast lap times. However, take the same riders to a different track and they are well off the pace. It is particularly true of tracks which are not very technical and generally it happens that the same tracks have identifiable surface issues where the fast line is different than the ideal corner so you can "learn" to get around the track by sheer # of laps. Blackhawk Farms, Summit Point, Texas World Speedway are three tracks that instantly spring to my mind as classic "local expert" tracks.
It doesn't tend to hapen at more technical tracks - think Barber, VIR, Mid-Ohio - because to be fast at these tracks you need to do much more than memorize the fast lines. It also doesn't happen a tracks that are not as frequently open to bikes or more out of the way (Road America, Daytona) because there is little opportunity to do the sheer # of laps needed to wrote memorize the track vs. displaying outright riding skill.
Nothing against guys who are fast at BHF, but, the MW series has so many races at this one track that it does shape the regional championship.
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on November 16, 2009, 04:56:38 AM
Nothing against guys who are fast at BHF, but, the MW series has so many races at this one track that it does shape the regional championship.
George
Don't forget how much money having those multiple events at those locations make too. It allows some opportunities to loose money at other tracks, even the "big, cool one's" that cost so much.
Quote from: George_Linhart on November 16, 2009, 04:56:38 AM
Hawk - I'll answer the question because it is something that Steve and I have discussed frequently.
It is a track where a certain sub-set of racers ride so often they can do very fast lap times. However, take the same riders to a different track and they are well off the pace. It is particularly true of tracks which are not very technical and generally it happens that the same tracks have identifiable surface issues where the fast line is different than the ideal corner so you can "learn" to get around the track by sheer # of laps. Blackhawk Farms, Summit Point, Texas World Speedway are three tracks that instantly spring to my mind as classic "local expert" tracks.
It doesn't tend to hapen at more technical tracks - think Barber, VIR, Mid-Ohio - because to be fast at these tracks you need to do much more than memorize the fast lines. It also doesn't happen a tracks that are not as frequently open to bikes or more out of the way (Road America, Daytona) because there is little opportunity to do the sheer # of laps needed to wrote memorize the track vs. displaying outright riding skill.
Nothing against guys who are fast at BHF, but, the MW series has so many races at this one track that it does shape the regional championship.
George
Just for grins I just checked the Middleweight expert results for the CCS Midwest region (blackhawks main region) It would appear that the front riders at Blackhawk were in the front everywhere all year. So much for local experts at blackhawk! Maybe if you are fast at Blackhawk you are fast everywhere!
Really the fast local expert thing is OFF topic. Bottom line is no matter who likes what track CCS is only going to go to tracks where the management is bike friendly and there is a chance of PROFIT. Autobahn- not friendly to bikes ....Grattan- rumored to be Not CCS friendly AND low chance of profit. Gingerman low chance of profit Blackhawk- VERY bike friendly and profitable. I want to say that I like Grattan and Gingerman better than BHF personally, but I do not see those tracks on the schedule any time soon.
Quote from: Boober on November 16, 2009, 11:10:41 AM
Just for grins I just checked the Middleweight expert results for the CCS Midwest region (blackhawks main region) It would appear that the front riders at Blackhawk were in the front everywhere all year. So much for local experts at blackhawk! Maybe if you are fast at Blackhawk you are fast everywhere!
Go deeper into the results. Look beyond the top couple of guys in one class in one year (a year with light turn-out); it takes more than a casual glance to figure out who almost always ONLY show up at BHF but when they race elsewhere they are 2-3 seconds off the respective pace that they run at this track. I'm not saying that the fast guys don't win at BHF, I am just saying that it is a track where some people spend SO MUCH time that they are much faster there than at any other track.
I completely get the economics of it. Here is the deal. You guys who like it can race BHF untill your hands blead - I will just do the Road America, HPT and Mid-Ohio weekends with an occasional race at BHF on days that suit me. I won't worry about where I finish in the pack at BHF or in the regional standings - its all just for fun anyways!
George
I'd love to see ACC on the schedule. They do still have races there - SCCA World Challenge ran there last summer - full course. We've done a lot of track days there the past couple of years and people there have been friendly enough, and the days have usually sold out. Biggest downside is the surface on south degrading and getting bumpy, and the cost. It's an expensive track to rent.
I wonder if there were a TD/practice/licensing clinic the day before or something, and if it were well promoted, how many of the TD regulars from Chicago would try racing? (meaning: fill the grids) Unfortunately there's just no getting around that it sucks for spectators.
I'd dig having Grattan and Gingerman on the schedule too. I thought I read at one point that there's sort of an agreement between WERA and CCS that their north central region does not infringe on our midwest region and vice versa? I might have completely fabricated that in my head. The east coast is populated enough to support both.
We've circumvented Chicago traffic by leaving late the night before. Chi traffic isn't awful at 2AM. Then take our time packing up, get dinner, and make sure it's later when we go home. We even take the non-toll route (since we did the math and save over $300 in tolls in one summer of going from Mil to ACC, Grattan, and GMan) and the time isn't too terrible. I mean... it sucks, but it's typically bearable.
It could be worse, CRA gets one track.
What about Bluegrass? (whenever it opens)
Quote from: truckstop on November 17, 2009, 02:35:01 PM
It could be worse, CRA gets one track.
So does LRRS...
So does WSMC...
So does OMRRA...
It's not always a bad thing. Get in a car or truck and travel, you know?
WERA posted their schedule. There will be 2 rounds at Grattan.
BHF is one of my favorite places. There was cookouts, rockin bands, great location, great track also great if you bring kids. I was fine when we went there 5 times in one year. I also did a full ASRA schedule so I got plenty of variety. For the most part the same fast guys will be in the mix at all tracks.
+1
No WERA rounds at Gingerman this year... looks like CCS wouldn't be stepping on any toes if they manage to book it :thumb:
I'm done going north and dealin with weather.. I'm goin south next season! 8)
Quote from: George_Linhart on November 16, 2009, 02:29:21 PM
Go deeper into the results. Look beyond the top couple of guys in one class in one year (a year with light turn-out); it takes more than a casual glance to figure out who almost always ONLY show up at BHF but when they race elsewhere they are 2-3 seconds off the respective pace that they run at this track. I'm not saying that the fast guys don't win at BHF, I am just saying that it is a track where some people spend SO MUCH time that they are much faster there than at any other track.
I dont see it... the only time you hear of a "Blackhawk specialist" is when discussing the # of races there. Who might one of these specialist be?
Quote from: tstruyk on November 17, 2009, 10:45:20 PM
I'm done going north and dealin with weather.. I'm goin south next season! 8)
WERA schedule came out yesterday.......Racing in February.....hmmmmm
Quote from: tstruyk on November 17, 2009, 10:45:20 PM
I'm done going north and dealin with weather.. I'm goin south next season! 8)
CMRA?
IHOP
JIHAD
Quote from: Andi on November 18, 2009, 11:49:25 AM
CMRA?
what mark said, probably WERA... with the great plains being kinda defunct and running BFR 84 times in a year sounds just plain DULL, I'm thinkin I might do a mix of wera, some CMRA and some CCS... yeah 3 liscense will suck balls but I wanna race where I wanna race and instead of whinning about it and hoping CCS puts together a schedule that is perfect for me, I'll make my own perfect schedule.
little tally, barber, road atlanta sounds better than BFR, GIR and HPT...
Quote from: tstruyk on November 19, 2009, 12:13:40 AM
what mark said, probably WERA... with the great plains being kinda defunct and running BFR 84 times in a year sounds just plain DULL, I'm thinkin I might do a mix of wera, some CMRA and some CCS... yeah 3 liscense will suck balls but I wanna race where I wanna race and instead of whinning about it and hoping CCS puts together a schedule that is perfect for me, I'll make my own perfect schedule.
little tally, barber, road atlanta sounds better than BFR, GIR and HPT...
Any endurance or just sprints?
Quote from: tstruyk on November 19, 2009, 12:13:40 AM
little tally, barber, road atlanta sounds better than BFR, GIR and HPT...
not too mention....if we are gonna race GIR, might as well run Nashville.....
speaking of which...BEN PROBST...
what's Nashville like anyway?
Sunny and 70*
Quote from: Andi on November 19, 2009, 08:26:28 AM
Any endurance or just sprints?
im not logging any endurance miles on my SV motor... it will be all sprints and a few GT's if I need a little extra set up time. Now if someone needed an endurance partner I'd be up for splitting costs.
Quote from: Racer510 on November 19, 2009, 12:30:04 PM
Sunny and 70*
HE IS ALIVE....I was worried you sold your racebike, retired from the cheese factory and moved to the Dells permanently!
That's a very good possibility, Mark. Although, I am looking forward to the team challenges this coming year. Looks like I'm going to have to go from R.A to the camper at the Dells over the July 4th weekend so I can get out on the new pontoon.
There goes that.
Looks like I'm skipping Gateway like I said. Have fun putting it all on the line at that hole if you go. Waste of a trip if you ask me.
Same as last year except Road America. I'm sure we will have a good turn out there. I'm planning for it now!
I'll bring some spectators to this race for sure! Gonna start advertising it at my shop!
Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on November 13, 2009, 11:27:33 AM
So is there anybody on this forum that wouldn't go to Grattan or Gingerman? If so why?
I'd like to see those tracks back on our race schedule. Even just 1 race weekend to try it out.
The only issue that I can recall at Grattan is Turn 9 or 10 the hairpin turn. Short on run off. That was before airfence was ever around. If airfence was placed there I couldn't think of a nicer track.
There is no better feeling than turn 3 off camber downhill back uphill, the jump before turn 5, and the bowl. That whole track rocks!!!
Lets bring back a kind of Great Lakes series again!!
I travel from KC to Grattan almost every year for a three day track day event just to get my Grattan fix. If it was on the CCS schedule I'd attend. Only other track that has near the fun value for me is Hallett. Off camber, blind entry, elevation changes, its all there.
Grattan's in the first phase of a three year repave. It's going to be sweet!
Quote from: backMARKr on November 19, 2009, 11:01:54 AM
not too mention....if we are gonna race GIR, might as well run Nashville.....
speaking of which...BEN PROBST...
what's Nashville like anyway?
Its a decent track. Its gateways sister track, so the layout shares some similarities. Just bigger and faster and safer for the most part. It has a bigger and faster T1 than gateway, a super tight section, followed by a cool flowing and uphill entrance onto the banking then another cool flowing downhill entrance off the banking, then a couple quick corners before another big version of the last turn at gateway, wider and faster putting you 5th gear wide open by the end of it, then straight onto the banking for a long run down to T1, its one of the faster tracks you will go to, I had to run a 17/45 there on the SV, only RA had taller gearing at 17/43. The only downside is the track is very abrasive and eats tires, upside obviously being amazing traction and excellent wet grip.
Quote from: benprobst on November 21, 2009, 09:18:26 PM
Its a decent track. Its gateways sister track, so the layout shares some similarities. Just bigger and faster and safer for the most part. It has a bigger and faster T1 than gateway, a super tight section, followed by a cool flowing and uphill entrance onto the banking then another cool flowing downhill entrance off the banking, then a couple quick corners before another big version of the last turn at gateway, wider and faster putting you 5th gear wide open by the end of it, then straight onto the banking for a long run down to T1, its one of the faster tracks you will go to, I had to run a 17/45 there on the SV, only RA had taller gearing at 17/43. The only downside is the track is very abrasive and eats tires, upside obviously being amazing traction and excellent wet grip.
Thank you Ben!
I have my WERA lic app all filled out......
Grattan's a great track - especially with the work they're starting to do. Plenty of character, a lot of fun and has arguably the best run-off of any track in the region from a safety standpoint.