I guess maybe a personal injury attorney might know. My question is about what kind of exposure do we (the racers) have against being sued by other racers for hurting them on the track. Does anyone know about that kind of information? If Bob takes out Dan during a race and Dan needs medical attention. Can Bob be held legally liable? What if Dan has no medical insurance also? I am kind of looking for real info. Not what one's opinion on how they would handle it if it was one of them.
BTW, I'm not in this situation. Just want to know about these kind of things.
I'm not a lawyer but I've dealt with enough of them with work and know several in the community and been apart of and heard stories of an ungodly number of retarded lawsuits from the lawyers on both sides.
So just my partially educated guess; If Bob takes out Dan causing personal injury, Dan does have the legal right to sue him if he can find an attorney willing to take the case. His chances of finding a lawyer would be slim to none and winning would be just below the same level. Dan would be required to prove that Bob was negligent or caused the accident on purpose which would require multiple witnesses (would be hard to find around the paddock) and a bajesus load of specialists on both sides to study tires, suspension, and the actual cause of the accident.
With this said, Win or loss, Bob would then be morally obligated to beat Dan within an inch of his life with any large blunt object within reach.
Makes sense. What you said is kind of the jist of what i thought. I still am gonna try to get ahold of a lawyer or do what it takes to find the facts, maybe even find some stories where someone has done this (i've never heard or seen one) but i'm sure there has been some cases.
Yes, I would beat the hell out of Dan too. :kicknuts:
Quote from: DEVINC on October 08, 2009, 04:38:16 PM
Makes sense. What you said is kind of the jist of what i thought. I still am gonna try to get ahold of a lawyer or do what it takes to find the facts, maybe even find some stories where someone has done this (i've never heard or seen one) but i'm sure there has been some cases.
Yes, I would beat the hell out of Dan too. :kicknuts:
glad you dont race in my region!! :wtf:
Sobottka, your real name isn't Dan, is it? lol. I wouldn't really do that to someone. (i don't think I could either)
I've never taken anyone out, and am not known for riding way out of control. I don't mean to sound like I am in the mindset that I am only worrying about myself, or plan to take someone out. I just want to make sure I know what all the possible risks of this sport are.
If you're not prepared to crash and suffer the consequences don't get on the track.
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 08, 2009, 06:07:47 PM
If you're not prepared to crash and suffer the consequences don't get on the track.
exactly- on track sh@t happens. start gettin attorney's involved and no more racey!!!
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 08, 2009, 06:07:47 PM
If you're not prepared to crash and suffer the consequences don't get on the track.
I hope that's not directed at me. I am prepared to crash. It's not about that. I just was wondering the chances of being sued. I would never be the one to bring an attorney into it. Just dont wanna be sued myself. I'm sure there are some people that would try it.
Quote from: Sobottka on October 08, 2009, 06:12:38 PM
exactly- on track sh@t happens. start gettin attorney's involved and no more racey!!!
Totally agree.
:spank: :wtf:
so i guess everyone took this topic the wrong way?
either way its bad, who you gonna sue or who'd you take out?
Quote from: DEVINC on October 08, 2009, 08:40:41 PM
so i guess everyone took this topic the wrong way?
Seems that way.
I guess I understood.
I don't remember anyone getting sued for on track activities. If someone is going to get sued, for just cause or not, there needs to be money at the end to seek as a goal. It's my opinion that that can be a hurdle alone as a lot of racers are kind of broke. Certainly aren't carrying the liability coverage that a race track or an organization would have to cover being sued.
You can't get blood out of a rock, you know?
I have feared the same thing. Everybody signs a waiver at the entrance, doesn't that cover that? Besides, they would have to prove it was you. Who knows it was you under the helmet?
Quote from: Sobottka on October 08, 2009, 08:43:20 PM
either way its bad, who you gonna sue or who'd you take out?
Sobottka, I have no intentions on sueing anyone. I wouldn't if I got taken out. I also don't plan on taking anybody out, intentionally or non. I bring this up because it was brought up to me at work today. Some of the people there seemed to think that I, or anybody out there would be at great exposure of getting sued if I was to cause a wreck. I'm even talking about if I had tire failure and my bike hit someone elses, not just "taking someone out". Now I work for a couple of independent certified financial planners. No, they are not lawyers, but they own their business and know how things work on their end of being exposed in legal matters. They were just telling me that they think there would be a kind of high possibility that someone could file suit in this matter. It was only conversation but got me thinking about it. What if? They also realize that they don't know 100% how the law works esp. in the situation of our type of activity. Just their thoughts. I accept the risks taken every time I go out. I try to be safe as I can. I have never "ran into" anyone before, nor have I taken someone out due to my own personal wreck. You took this the wrong way. Maybe it's the way I worded things. I don't know. Just to let anyone that cares know, like I said before, I don't intend on sueing ever, or taking anyone out purposely. It was just a thought because smart people that I work with brought it to my attention. I'm 20 years old, so I don't know how shit really works in that sense. Just all sounds freaky to me of the possibility of being sued. I am broke as hell as it is (like many others around here :biggrin: ) And the whole Dan and Bob story were just names I made up to give an example of my question. So no, it is not bad either way on my part for bringing this up.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 08, 2009, 09:31:02 PM
Seems that way.
I guess I understood.
I don't remember anyone getting sued for on track activities. If someone is going to get sued, for just cause or not, there needs to be money at the end to seek as a goal. It's my opinion that that can be a hurdle alone as a lot of racers are kind of broke. Certainly aren't carrying the liability coverage that a race track or an organization would have to cover being sued.
You can't get blood out of a rock, you know?
I know what you are saying. It is just a worry I felt like bringing up. I'm glad that you understand that I am not on either side of this question. I wouldn't sue anyone if they caused me to wreck. It's happened before, wasn't badly injured, but I still wouldn't think about it either way. And I'd NEVER intentionally take someone out. Ever. Just seems like a messed up world out there and I'd hate to see that happen to me or anyone else.
I think you should had put "hypothetical situation" in the first post.
I pretty much think anyone who tried to sue another racer and/or the org for a racing accident would probably be drummed right out of racing aka blackballed. I dont think I ever heard of anyone intentionally crashing someone in CCS.
Now I have dealt with pissed off friends of racers I've taken back to their pits with the crash truck. One guy was screaming the other guy should be paying to fix his friends/son's/whatever's bike. They were starting a "feeding frenzy" getting all the people with him wound up and wanting to go over to the other guy and "deal with him". Basically told the ring leader that if he or anyone else in their entourage goes over there to start something, their racer will be kicked out and banned from racing again (added that last part just for effect). He settled down real quick.
For the most part most people just find eachother and apologize and laugh about it later.
Quote from: NOBODY on October 08, 2009, 09:53:59 PM
I have feared the same thing. Everybody signs a waiver at the entrance, doesn't that cover that? Besides, they would have to prove it was you. Who knows it was you under the helmet?
Race tracks and racing organizations have been sued. Successfully. Most individuals are honorable folks that recognize the risks involved in what they do and where they go. However, this is not always the case.
Quote from: DEVINC on October 08, 2009, 10:57:59 PM
Sobottka, I have no intentions on sueing anyone. I wouldn't if I got taken out. I also don't plan on taking anybody out, intentionally or non. I bring this up because it was brought up to me at work today. Some of the people there seemed to think that I, or anybody out there would be at great exposure of getting sued if I was to cause a wreck. I'm even talking about if I had tire failure and my bike hit someone elses, not just "taking someone out". Now I work for a couple of independent certified financial planners. No, they are not lawyers, but they own their business and know how things work on their end of being exposed in legal matters. They were just telling me that they think there would be a kind of high possibility that someone could file suit in this matter. It was only conversation but got me thinking about it. What if? They also realize that they don't know 100% how the law works esp. in the situation of our type of activity. Just their thoughts. I accept the risks taken every time I go out. I try to be safe as I can. I have never "ran into" anyone before, nor have I taken someone out due to my own personal wreck. You took this the wrong way. Maybe it's the way I worded things. I don't know. Just to let anyone that cares know, like I said before, I don't intend on sueing ever, or taking anyone out purposely. It was just a thought because smart people that I work with brought it to my attention. I'm 20 years old, so I don't know how shit really works in that sense. Just all sounds freaky to me of the possibility of being sued. I am broke as hell as it is (like many others around here :biggrin: ) And the whole Dan and Bob story were just names I made up to give an example of my question. So no, it is not bad either way on my part for bringing this up.
I know what you are saying. It is just a worry I felt like bringing up. I'm glad that you understand that I am not on either side of this question. I wouldn't sue anyone if they caused me to wreck. It's happened before, wasn't badly injured, but I still wouldn't think about it either way. And I'd NEVER intentionally take someone out. Ever. Just seems like a messed up world out there and I'd hate to see that happen to me or anyone else.
glad I mis-understood :cheers:
Woofentino,
I should have put "hypothetical", you're right. That sounds reasonable about blackballing someone. I would never want to be the one to try and start something like that.
Super Dave,
I know a lot of people around here are honorable. Most everyone I've met have been helpful or friendly in some way.
Sobottka,
I'm glad it was misunderstood at first. I don't want to be thought of as some guy that would try to take someone out if i was "mad" nor sue someone for accidents. Def. not me. :cheers:
Quote from: Super Dave on October 09, 2009, 05:31:27 AM
Race tracks and racing organizations have been sued. Successfully. Most individuals are honorable folks that recognize the risks involved in what they do and where they go. However, this is not always the case.
Gross negligence is gross negligence and the signing of a waiver is a weak defense against it, legally and ethically.
Fortunately, as Dave mentions, most racers are honorable. They also have a vested interest in the well-being of their bodies and machinery which minimizes stupidity (on the track at least).
Good question though, DeVinc. I think its wise for racers to have personal liability insurance appropriate to their economic situation.
Quote from: DEVINC on October 08, 2009, 08:40:41 PM
so i guess everyone took this topic the wrong way?
Ahhh Devin, you are showing your youth...LOL. If you start any conversation with, "I want to find a lawyer" you are gonna get the reception you have thus far. Anyone reading that will most likely take it as if you want the lawyer to sue someone.
I know what you are thinking and maybe phrasing your intent in a different way would have a different outcome. Don't fear too much about your own liability on track for damages incurred while racing,or in the possible case of crashing.
There have been a couple cases that I know of where a suit was drawn up, but that was more of a shotgun blast and found whoever it stuck to. I am not sure of the total outcome. The suit was initiated by the family.
As a racer I would ask you to not race too far over your limits. Doing so usually results in that racer out of control and more like a bowling ball.
Mark
Quote from: DEVINC on October 08, 2009, 07:00:27 PM
I hope that's not directed at me. I am prepared to crash. It's not about that. I just was wondering the chances of being sued. I would never be the one to bring an attorney into it. Just dont wanna be sued myself. I'm sure there are some people that would try it.
No, no not directed at anyone. Just my general feeling.
It has crossed my mind too.
That's the plus side to being 25 and spending all your money on racing. They could try to sue, but all they'd get is a few crashed motorcycles and a mini fridge filled with Stag. :biggrin:
The whole "theory" and "honorable" "responsible" concepts presented in this thread have no relevance in any legal proceedings. Could you sue someone? Yes. Would you win? Perhaps. Would it be that difficult to prove negligence/malice? Not really. Would you win much and actually collect it? I HIGHLY doubt it...
Racers for the most part are some of the LEAST wealthy people I've ever met. Not saying they're poor, but saying that everything they have is stuck into racing, and, well, you're not going to get much out of that.
People can and do sue others for ridiculous shit every day. And win!
So are you at risk? Of course you are!
One thing I found comical was that a certain race track in the midwest required the RFF to have a $1M liability insurance policy in place, naming the track as the beneficiary IN CASE someone were to be "hurt" on our display, trip over something, etc, and then sue the track. I won the fight 2 years running that "you don't require ANY racer, or race team to provide the same insurance and their areas are a HELL of a lot more dangerous than our CHARITY is". They told us not to come back on the 3rd year unless we were willing to provide the insurance...
If you really want to cover your ass, get some liability insurance (like $1M). Just don't tell anyone or they'll suddenly hurt themselves at your paddock...
Australia is lookin better and better all the time...... 8)
Lawyers are an important part of our ecosystem. When they die, they become a part of the food chain providing nutrients in the soil for vegatation to absorb through their roots. I guess that's kind of important,ain't it?
lol. like obi-wan explains the force.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 09, 2009, 05:31:27 AM
Race tracks and racing organizations have been sued. Successfully. Most individuals are honorable folks that recognize the risks involved in what they do and where they go. However, this is not always the case.
It is usually the family of a deceased racer that tend to sue tracks and orgs, right?
Quote from: Gixxerblade on October 09, 2009, 01:37:13 PM
It is usually the family of a deceased racer that tend to sue tracks and orgs, right?
Yes.
Like Don said, one would have to "prove" gross negligence. And I use proof in quotes as it is certainly civil where it's doubt not beyond a reasonable doubt. I know of a few law suits that have been won. They have left me scratching my head at the reasoning at times.
check a few months back we hashed this out allready. hasenda's in the yuctan are going cheap. the track days seem to be where the civil action is they got money
I got taken out. There was multi-frame photographic evidence. That guy is one of my best friends now! :cheers:
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on October 13, 2009, 12:49:30 PM
I got taken out. There was multi-frame photographic evidence. That guy is one of my best friends now! :cheers:
Even T-shirts of it also.:biggrin:
I'm a lawyer, don't shoot me... :) I haven't looked into this at all, but I can tell you that if you can prove that more likely than not someone behaved recklessly and that reckless behaviour was the cause of your injuries, then there is no waiver in the world that will protect that person from liability in the U.S. Legal system. Also there is the idea of assumption of the risk in sporting events. You assume the risk of any injuries that occur in the normal course of the sport. That should cover most crashes. But that has not been the case however in some extreme cases, such as a hockey player hitting another player over the back of the head with a hockey stick, because that isn't in the normal course of the sport. But as we know, crashes happen all the time in racing and people make mistakes, so unless there is some outrageous conduct you would not be able to recover for a racing incident.
Shoot the lawyer!!!!
Thanks for the input JCP.
You goin to Homestead?
Quote from: 2old2fat2slow on October 20, 2009, 08:54:35 PM
Shoot the lawyer!!!!
We are trying to make a lawyer season between the 2 deer seasons in WI.:biggrin: No bag limits either.:biggrin:
Quote from: DEVINC on October 20, 2009, 10:07:23 PM
Thanks for the input JCP.
You goin to Homestead?
No problem. Probably not going to Homestead. I actually live in Philly, I was just down in Florida for the past month. Heading back north on thursday. I'll definitely be back down for Daytona in March though.
Oh and to everyone else, just be warned, I shoot back... :) haha
ah you were the one pitted with mark we got your # now and besides guns are illegal in Jersey lol. just kidding it was good to meet you hope you had a good time at daytona . unfortunately that was the lightest turnout i've ever seen racers and fans don't think they made enough to cover the help. we might have to pitch in 5 bucks a race all next year so we can go there.
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 21, 2009, 10:01:32 AM
ah you were the one pitted with mark we got your # now and besides guns are illegal in Jersey lol. just kidding it was good to meet you hope you had a good time at daytona . unfortunately that was the lightest turnout i've ever seen racers and fans don't think they made enough to cover the help. we might have to pitch in 5 bucks a race all next year so we can go there.
Fortunately for me Philadelphia is located in Pennsylvania ;) haha
Very nice meeting you too, I had a great time in Daytona. Tell your boy Obama to fix the economy and maybe more people will come... I'll put a call in to Joe Biden. He was a proffessor of mine last fall maybe he can help, haha :) Hopefully we'll get a big turn out in March though. I'll be there!
my boy' do you remember where you raced last week. that's my home track lol. i voted for the other guy but to tell you the truth i thought that maybe some new people and some new ideas might be what we need . some old people same old blah blah blah . my friend in the islands calls it " good words ". and your professor needs to stay in school he's got rubber leg's . yeah i missed the philidelphia in all the excitement about lawyers. some good deer hunting in PAtough . let me or mark know when your coming back and we'll get together for a steak marc
I was hit by a lawyer on a racetrack.
Don't start a conversation with him. He'll bill you for the time.
Quote from: dylanfan53 on October 23, 2009, 07:42:39 AM
Don't start a conversation with him. He'll bill you for the time.
I shared a garage with one and spoke with him, should I expect a bill?
my friend with a truss plant called his lawyer about the bill he sent him. guess what ? he got a bill for that too. like talking with the DOT the more you complain the larger the ticket
Quote from: Ducmarc on October 22, 2009, 05:10:57 PM
my boy' do you remember where you raced last week. that's my home track lol. i voted for the other guy but to tell you the truth i thought that maybe some new people and some new ideas might be what we need . some old people same old blah blah blah . my friend in the islands calls it " good words ". and your professor needs to stay in school he's got rubber leg's . yeah i missed the philidelphia in all the excitement about lawyers. some good deer hunting in PAtough . let me or mark know when your coming back and we'll get together for a steak marc
Haha, I was just messin with you when I said your boy. I'll be back for Daytona in March, possibly Homestead before that.
P.S. Should I send the bill to your home address or office?
Quote from: skidMARK on October 23, 2009, 10:10:39 AM
I shared a garage with one and spoke with him, should I expect a bill?
Maybe you should just have me on retainer... Might be cheaper in the long run.
hey it will be cold up there in dec you need to come down for homestead and warm up. we'll hit all the cuban bakery's and go home ten pounds fatter ha.
I'll come down if I can, but if I had to say today I probably wouldn't be able to. I came home 10 lbs heavier this time, haha. I might have it worked back off by then though.
Quote from: NOBODY on October 08, 2009, 09:53:59 PM
I have feared the same thing. Everybody signs a waiver at the entrance, doesn't that cover that? Besides, they would have to prove it was you. Who knows it was you under the helmet?
Racers show up to a track thinking of setting up and getting ready...for the most part. Riders think that they signed a waiver and life goes on. There are many other factors that directly puts the rider at risk and the waiver means nothing. You hear third call for your class and on your way through the pits and an adult, kid or pet not looking runs into your path and you hit them, your liable. If a racer gets hurt on the track that's one thing, anything that happens off track poses risk and liability.
Once the police report is done, the legal letters follow right after.
I think people need to re-read someones post before they comment. Devin was clear on his post. It's a legitimate question. No wonder we have 14 million different religions, nobody understands what they just read....they just jump to conclusions and beat someone.
Quote from: F2RGK on November 12, 2009, 12:04:25 AM
I think people need to re-read someones post before they comment. Devin was clear on his post. It's a legitimate question. No wonder we have 14 million different religions, nobody understands what they just read....they just jump to conclusions and beat someone.
It's a CCS unofficial fan forum, not reading comprehension class. Lighten up Francis.
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=38754
Interesting read, particularly about Kansas definition of negligence and "wanton" conduct.