Just taking a quick look through the grids for heavyweight I noticed that only 3-4 bikes per expert class actually qualify only in the HW class. Is it fair to say that the industry has passed by the 750 inline fours and 1000 twins? Most twins now fit into the unlimited class and only Suzuki makes a 750. It's a grid, and podium, dominated by 600's essentially making it another MW class.
Maybe we can expand on the idea of having a 3 tier class of racing if we make the room by bumping the HW classes. Hopefully this will encourage more track day riders to try their hand at racing.
Food for thought.
Quote from: Fast4fun on June 23, 2009, 09:18:49 PM
Just taking a quick look through the grids for heavyweight I noticed that only 3-4 bikes per expert class actually qualify only in the HW class. Is it fair to say that the industry has passed by the 750 inline fours and 1000 twins? Most twins now fit into the unlimited class and only Suzuki makes a 750. It's a grid, and podium, dominated by 600's essentially making it another MW class.
Maybe we can expand on the idea of having a 3 tier class of racing if we make the room by bumping the HW classes. Hopefully this will encourage more track day riders to try their hand at racing.
Food for thought.
That three tier thing may have worked 10 years ago when you had 30, 50 and 70 bike grids. Now we can barely get tire money in some races at some venues. Splitting a small group into even smaller groups seems silly. Though eliminating some classes would push more folks into the more general and maybe longer races.
Quote from: Fast4fun
Just taking a quick look through the grids for heavyweight I noticed that only 3-4 bikes per expert class actually qualify only in the HW class. Is it fair to say that the industry has passed by the 750 inline fours and 1000 twins? Most twins now fit into the unlimited class and only Suzuki makes a 750. It's a grid, and podium, dominated by 600's essentially making it another MW class.
Maybe we can expand on the idea of having a 3 tier class of racing if we make the room by bumping the HW classes. Hopefully this will encourage more track day riders to try their hand at racing.
Food for thought.
Some of the track day folks don't get into racing because of the size of grids. So, eliminating classes with smaller numbers of entries doesn't allow them an opportunity to get involved.
Additionally, Buell and Suzuki have offered substantial manufacturer contingency to experts in HW classes.
Please keep the HW. I race a 750.
Quote from: benprobst on June 23, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
That three tier thing may have worked 10 years ago when you had 30, 50 and 70 bike grids. Now we can barely get tire money in some races at some venues. Splitting a small group into even smaller groups seems silly. Though eliminating some classes would push more folks into the more general and maybe longer races.
If you move people from 'Amatuer' to 'Sportsman' quickly (and provide an incentive to move early) it might actually help the grid sizes in 'Sportsman' - imagine if half of the, say AM MW GP were up in EX. But then I have no idea how many of those Experts would stay in sportsman, and how many would go Pro/Expert. I'd imagine it would depend on the incentives
Quote from: Super Dave on June 24, 2009, 09:53:56 AM
Some of the track day folks don't get into racing because of the size of grids. So, eliminating classes with smaller numbers of entries doesn't allow them an opportunity to get involved.
Ding! If I can drop a couple more seconds at BHF I was thinking about starting to enter the HW classes on my 600 because they seemed pretty light, and I would rather enter classes that aren't completely packed and ridiculous (ie, MW). Unfortunately, the trackday peeps don't know about this.
I ran HWSS (AM) and got my ass handed to me on my Duc 996. I know this is another topic, but I am so completely limited in classes with this bike- it kinda blows. Can't run the LW or MW stuff, as CCS hates Desmodromic valves (even the old tired quattro stuff I have) (((BUT BUELLS CAN :banghead: :biggrin:))) So, I am limited to HW or Unlimited stuff, where I get my ass handed to me. Let's be honest- my Duc puts about the same ponies, if not less, to the ground as the current 600's. I need concessions, dammit! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Ski, I agree with you. Although your duc can run in the unlimited classes, it probably fits just as well in MW. It weighs more than a 600, puts out marginally more HP and quite a bit more torque, but I don't see them running the front of the pack at any track over a well ridden 600. Therefore, i see the older 1k twins fitting into a MW class. I know this is going to stir up a lot of talk but that's my humble opinion. The new twins, ie the 1098, clearly fits in the unlimited class. Besides, we're only talking about two races per weekend that could be used for a better purpose. I just think it's a redundant class b/c it's mostly MW bikes.
running my buell in heavyweight and will run a full season next year.
tim
no way should a 1098 be in the hw class.
Quote from: skiandclimb on June 24, 2009, 08:20:37 PM
I ran HWSS (AM) and got my ass handed to me on my Duc 996. I know this is another topic, but I am so completely limited in classes with this bike- it kinda blows. Can't run the LW or MW stuff, as CCS hates Desmodromic valves (even the old tired quattro stuff I have) (((BUT BUELLS CAN :banghead: :biggrin:))) So, I am limited to HW or Unlimited stuff, where I get my ass handed to me. Let's be honest- my Duc puts about the same ponies, if not less, to the ground as the current 600's. I need concessions, dammit! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Learn how to do faster laps.
I finished as high as second in HW on an SV1000S and lead races. Similarly, my SV put about the same power as a good 600, but no ram air and it came with extra weight.
"I finished as high as second in HW on an SV1000S and lead races. Similarly, my SV put about the same power as a good 600, but no ram air and it came with extra weight. "
But your SV1k puts out much more torque than a 600 and is easier to ride because you aren't shifting as much.
Quote from: SV88 on June 25, 2009, 01:56:48 PM
But your SV1k puts out much more torque than a 600 and is easier to ride because you aren't shifting as much.
Shifting was the same as on my previous 600's. More torque, but with no HP, if it spins up at all, it would fall on its face rather than continuing to drive out of the corner like a 600 with similar HP on a dyno...but more in motion with ram air.
Easier to ride? It weigh
ed more and had more torque, but I couldn't put down the times I could on a 600. It was fun, I made money, and it was a good bike. If it was all about torque, then the bike with the most torque per pound would win every race.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 25, 2009, 02:13:20 PM
Easier to ride? It weighed more and had more torque, but I couldn't put down the times I could on a 600. It was fun, I made money, and it was a good bike. If it was all about torque, then the bike with the most torque per pound would win every race.
Steve Wilkins strikes again......open mouth insert foot.
Hey Tim, we are talking about CC's here and not rider weight? LOL!!! Are you worried about putting on a few pounds?
In the rules thread, I suggested some mods to the MW class stucture to allow up to 999CC twins in MWSB, MWGP, and GTU. The fastest would be a heavily modded 999R, maybe 140HP. Similar to a heavily built 600. My 996 makes 112.
Of course there will always be riders who can win on anything, but the question is what classes are the bikes most competitive in?
Sure, the HW classes are mostly obsolete, but I don't think you can count on CCS eliminating any classes....entries=$$ and CCS needs to stay in business, after all or we're all screwed (at least us Florida guys)!
Quote from: SV88 on June 25, 2009, 01:56:48 PM
But your SV1k puts out much more torque than a 600 and is easier to ride because you aren't shifting as much.
Just curious, but are you drunk?
:biggrin:
A SV1000 easier to ride at pace than a 600? :lmao:
Quote from: Super Dave on June 25, 2009, 02:13:20 PM
It weighed more and had more torque, but I couldn't put down the times I could on a 600.
SD - Are you saying that your HW bike was slower than your own times on a 600?
Quote from: F2RGK on June 25, 2009, 11:11:16 PM
Hey Tim, we are talking about CC's here and not rider weight? LOL!!! Are you worried about putting on a few pounds?
Not nice to make fun of the fat kids. BTW, I'm getting close to F40... that's my next thread. BTW you're old as$ POS has no place in this thread :lmao:
Ben: I'm not drunk right now or when I posted this and I guess I should explain my reasoning a little better.
Twins are generally easier to ride @ pace because of a considerably widder power band so you don't have to shift as much as a 600. My R6 is considerably harder to ride @ pace because of the narrow power band, the need to keep it on the boil (above 10K) and the costliness of rider mistakes - coming out of T5 @ RA @ 7k is akin to parking the bike!
Now physicality is another issue which I suspect is the source of our disagreement - the SV1K is much heavier than the R6 and requires more physical exersion to get around the track. The R6 clearlly brakes, accelerate, dives into corners much more easily.
Having said all of this, I cannot say that I've raced my SV1k (I've done 3 track days) like the R6 (1 sprint @ RA and 2 6hr CMRA endurance races) so I am speculating to some extent.
I know your not drunk Steve, just bustin your balls some!
I guess we have different ideas of hard to ride. To me shifting doesnt make a bike hard to ride. Why would you ever come out of a corner at 7 thousand rpm? Just down shit again, problem solved and an example of why a 600 is so easy to ride. The bike is amazing, all I have to do is stop doing things wrong and the bike will go faster. However on the SV it has certain inherent weaknesses that to me seem to constantly over ridden. The incredibly flexible forks (changing the way the bike acts on the way into the corner dending on what your current adjustable trail is!!!) , the chassis that seems to love tying its self in knots, and a motor that will not allow you to do the things with a rear tire that are easy breasy on inline. The way it makes power is a pain in the ass too. If you go into a corner like T1 at BHF with a 600, the two of you get equal drives out, the guy on th SV is the one loosing out, having to sacrifice body positioning and traction getting that next shift because the thing runs out of ummmpphhhh so soon, it has zero over rev, while most 600s make close to peak power after its true peak the SV drops off a cliff.
But as always its your opinion, so im just yacking really. In my experience to get close to fast 600 times on an SV takes way more concentration and significantly more effort. Obviously its different for you, not to mention some people just dont jive with inlines.
I ride a 750 because with a stock motor it deosn't get pulled by the top EX's at BHF on their supersport motor 600's. for me its cheaper, because i can run a stock motor for 3 yrs. i wouldn't mind riding a 600 if their was a suspension/hand n foot controls only modification class. U4 and yearly engine builds? no thanks!
Quote from: skiandclimb on June 24, 2009, 08:20:37 PM
I ran HWSS (AM) and got my ass handed to me on my Duc 996. I know this is another topic, but I am so completely limited in classes with this bike- it kinda blows. Can't run the LW or MW stuff, as CCS hates Desmodromic valves (even the old tired quattro stuff I have) (((BUT BUELLS CAN :banghead: :biggrin:))) So, I am limited to HW or Unlimited stuff, where I get my ass handed to me. Let's be honest- my Duc puts about the same ponies, if not less, to the ground as the current 600's. I need concessions, dammit! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
if you got your ass handed to you in the heavyweight classes then it would be the same in the middleweight or maybe even worse as the heavyweight classes are generally easier
Quote from: Super Dave on June 24, 2009, 09:53:56 AM
Some of the track day folks don't get into racing because of the size of grids. So, eliminating classes with smaller numbers of entries doesn't allow them an opportunity to get involved.
Additionally, Buell and Suzuki have offered substantial manufacturer contingency to experts in HW classes.
Wouldn't it be more of lack of promotion and fear of not knowing enough about racing? The old adage goes, if they don't have a friend to ride with, then it's not any fun. We need to concentrate on that comradery more. I know it's competition, but it's the comradery competition VS. Attitude competition. We need to go out of our way more for that to lead them to the water. I remember my first race, learning curves, I sucked, but it was a big grid, that wasn't my fear; however, it was whether or not I'll crash. You'll never know what goes thru someone's head at that moment when they are under pressure.