I'm new and also have been off the bike for several months due to financial situations so I am what you could call, "slow". I want to make my first race at Homestead in June so I am trying to get feedback on the new Michelins and other tires as well to see who likes what and why. I know that all of the tires nowadays are pretty amazing, and at my level all of them would work for me but prices seem to differ by a few bucks between the vendors. It also seems like a majority of people use Pirelli and Dunlop (at least that is what I have noticed) Anyways, whatever information anyone has will be helpful. Thanks for reading and replying.
If still slow don't get the most expensive. Bridgestone, appox 350 a set. Good to get you started, start winning then switch to a higher paying contingency tire. Good luck.
I work under the presumption that the tires are better than me. They are all good tires and guys(not me) can go very fast on all different brands. Seems like the big bikes like the Dunlops. The small bike like the Pirelli. Michelin seems to work on all of them. Bridgestone seems to be the least popular but I have used them from day one. I think that any tire you use, the racer needs to know them and how to set the bike up for them.
Greg Richards raced a GSXR600 and used the Dunlops. He then switched to the Bridgestones because of pricing. It took him a while and some help from Thermosman to get the bike right and then he made progress. he was back to his times on the Bridgestones that he achieved on the Dunlops. Greg is pretty fast in my book, starting a race from pit out(in the rain) and making his way through the field to I believe the top spot.
Greg Melka uses the Michelin and he is dang quick. I am just trying the Michelin and as of yet I love them.
Contingency: Can be a major factor. Michelin and Bridgestone are the best paying. Depending on the class you run Bridgestone will pay more, and Michelin will pay deeper into the field.
Check out Mize(advertiser) on this site for comparisons. A Bridgestone set will cost (120/180) $354. Michelin is $380. I don't know how many laps the Michelin lasts but the Bridgestone set lasts 100 laps with lap times within 1- 1 1/2 seconds off my best. Of course this is on an Ultralight class bike.
Any of the major tire brands can be made to work well. The key is support. Get to know the vendors that support your track, and make your decisions based on who you are the most comfortable working with.
I'm a fan of the Bridgestone's, but I'm a little biased since I've been on them for 12 years, and selling them for 10.
Try a couple brands, they all feel different..
Pirelli is running a promo for Dragon Pro's through all the trackside vendors
$299 120/160
$309 120/180
$319 120/190
Great pricing for incredible tires...
Get to know your trackside vendors as was noted above, that is the most important thing....
Know the tires, then know your objective and what they pay. In the end the logical combination will make sense.
Quote from: red900 on May 17, 2009, 11:18:57 PM
Try a couple brands, they all feel different..
Pirelli is running a promo for Dragon Pro's through all the trackside vendors
$299 120/160
$309 120/180
$319 120/190
Great pricing for incredible tires...
Get to know your trackside vendors as was noted above, that is the most important thing....
dustin,
why is pirelli pushing the dragon pro's vs the diablo supercorsa's?
It costs money to constantly develop tires and make changes. As you know the Pro's have been out a couple years now and the technology has finally been paid off so it costs less to manufacture the tire now. With the state of the economy it only made sense to get a price point tire out there to compete with the other low cost race tire competition...
With the contingency payouts this year what better way to make your tires free.......
Quote from: DEVINC on May 16, 2009, 10:43:47 PM
I'm new and also have been off the bike for several months due to financial situations so I am what you could call, "slow". I want to make my first race at Homestead in June so I am trying to get feedback on the new Michelins and other tires as well to see who likes what and why. I know that all of the tires nowadays are pretty amazing, and at my level all of them would work for me but prices seem to differ by a few bucks between the vendors. It also seems like a majority of people use Pirelli and Dunlop (at least that is what I have noticed) Anyways, whatever information anyone has will be helpful. Thanks for reading and replying.
I don't know much about the street versions, only full on race tires.. Anyway..What they said.. and ill add, if your slow (and im not saying you are, you did..) Contingency is not a factor for you. However, that being said, you WILL see more and more riders on Michelin this season. The shift has ALREADY started and some known fast guys are cashing in on the killer contingency program as well as the Barber Invite Michelin only race in October. And not just cause the riders are fast, but because the tires are THAT GOOD. Now I speak of the NEW Power 1 tires. I have put the past behind me so please do not ask me about the PR series tires (lol.. ).
As said in prior posts, ALL the brands are pretty darn good but Michelin put OVER 2 years development into the Power 1 tires and Michelin riders did not have the best product prior to the release earlier this season with the newer Dunlop and Pirelli tires that were out. The Michelin tires are priced VERY competitively, with B-stones the least expensive. I can not see how racers are paying nearly $500 for Dunlop UK tires, but they are .. Do some research on your own, ALL the recent race bike mags have had RAVE reviews of the Power 1 tires, then try a different brand a weekend or something till you find what floats yer boat.
My own personal opinion and the 3 nickles it is worth??
THEY FRIGGIN ROCK.
thanks for all of the info. so far everyone. it is very helpful
Quote from: red900 on May 18, 2009, 08:39:48 AM
It costs money to constantly develop tires and make changes. As you know the Pro's have been out a couple years now and the technology has finally been paid off so it costs less to manufacture the tire now. With the state of the economy it only made sense to get a price point tire out there to compete with the other low cost race tire competition...
With the contingency payouts this year what better way to make your tires free.......
Wouldn't it have more to do with the fact that the Pro's are their older model and not the best available anymore? It seems like Pirelli and (and Metzeler previously) always offer their older stuff at a cheaper cost. It's a great deal for a newer rider but the tires aren't as good as the new ones right?
I'm nowhere near the rider Melka is so my opinion might not be worth as much but I totally agree with him about the Power Ones, they are awesome.
Quote from: R1Racer99 on May 18, 2009, 11:51:43 PM
Wouldn't it have more to do with the fact that the Pro's are their older model and not the best available anymore? It seems like Pirelli and (and Metzeler previously) always offer their older stuff at a cheaper cost. It's a great deal for a newer rider but the tires aren't as good as the new ones right?
I'm nowhere near the rider Melka is so my opinion might not be worth as much but I totally agree with him about the Power Ones, they are awesome.
wait....Melka is fast?
Quote from: lil_thorny on May 19, 2009, 03:38:24 PM
wait....Melka is fast?
LOL.. I keep telling everyone it's just "smoke n' mirrors" and im totally overrated.. :lmao: ! Fast on a regional level maybe, Fast on a Jensen/Wood level.. nope. What up Benji :biggrin:
red900, im not sure i understood what you were trying to say. Why would Michelin sell tires at the cost of other "cheap" tires just because all the R&D is done? That money was spent, but the costs in developing the new tire needs recouped. Any company looks for a return on investment. Also, brands don't have the same perception of quality..like cars.. sorry for going down the economics lesson path, but Michelin is known for excellent quality and people are willing to pay a bit more than the Ching Shin or Tomahawk because of it.. Saturn cars could design a car that looked and drove just like a Lexus but nobody would pay the same money. What are the "Pro's" tire.. Did you mean PR tires? The older series tires are discounted, you can buy em while they last cheaper than the Power1 tires.
He was talking about the older Pirellis, the Dragon Supercorsa Pros. Pretty much the same deal as Michelin selling their PRs cheap, because they're not the best they have to offer anymore. I don't see what development costs have to do with anything, Pirellis are still a little more expensive than Michelins around here.
I dont know much about much, but I love the new Power One's. I'm not a podium monkey, which means my tire checks come out of my own checking account, so I've always been very conscious of how many laps my tires have made before I had to start being cautious on them.
In 07 I ran the PR-C/PR-3 combo for races and PR-C/PR-5 for trackdays. I could get about 45 laps out of the PR3 before it started to slip on Turn 6 and 14 (the two slickest corners for me at HPT). It was controllable, and was always predictable when it would start spooling up the rear, but I rarely took a tire past about 45 laps without letting up.
the PR5 could make almost a whole day (6.5 hours of approximately 32 laps an hour for about 200 laps a day) before the left side would start to spool up if pushed beyond Intermediate speeds.
The PR-C front always lasted through about 2 PR3's or 5's, but was obviously boiled on the left by the end of 2 PR5's.
I got ahold of my first set of Power-One's the morning of Practice at HPT last month. At Scotty and Tom's recommendation, I went with the 'V' front and the "B" rear. After practice on Saturday, morning practices on Saturday and Sunday, and the Supersport and Superbike races both days... then a partial Trackday on Monday, I'm now at 154 laps on the same set and have not had the rear end spool up yet.
The left side of the B rear is missing the mini-tread cuts except for the very edges of the ones near the center, with the wear marker 'bumps' gone. The right side of the rear still has about 1/4 of the depth of the tread cuts, and the wear markers are level with the surface. I dont know if I've burnt into them at all yet, but the surface is at least down to them.
I got down into the 1:52's for a couple laps late at the trackday, and still didn't feel the rear end slipping anywhere on the track. Either it's not spooling up yet, or it's still driving forward enough to keep the rear end from stepping out when it does it.
The front looks good on both sides. The left side of the front is not down to the wear markers yet, and the right side looks like my old PR-C would have after about 20 laps.
So far, for the price, I've already saved at least one rear tire, and if I was hard up, I would feel confident running cautiously for the superbike and supersport races on this same set for this weekend on them. The new Power One's definitely kick ass compared to what I THOUGHT was the already terrific PRC/PR3 combo. I am just wondering now how much longivity I would give up going to an A rear....
Quote from: MELK-MAN on May 20, 2009, 11:54:09 AM
LOL.. I keep telling everyone it's just "smoke n' mirrors" and im totally overrated.. :lmao: ! Fast on a regional level maybe, Fast on a Jensen/Wood level.. nope. What up Benji :biggrin:
red900, im not sure i understood what you were trying to say. Why would Michelin sell tires at the cost of other "cheap" tires just because all the R&D is done? That money was spent, but the costs in developing the new tire needs recouped. Any company looks for a return on investment. Also, brands don't have the same perception of quality..like cars.. sorry for going down the economics lesson path, but Michelin is known for excellent quality and people are willing to pay a bit more than the Ching Shin or Tomahawk because of it.. Saturn cars could design a car that looked and drove just like a Lexus but nobody would pay the same money. What are the "Pro's" tire.. Did you mean PR tires? The older series tires are discounted, you can buy em while they last cheaper than the Power1 tires.
I am with Greg and I can also tell you that I should have lost the front in T1 a couple of times at HPT in April...just getting to know the track and the new Power 1 V stuck like glue. Furthermore, I used all of my 675's torque on the new 180 rear "B" didn't spin at all...granted I only managed to find my way into a couple 47s before I started blowing fork seals (thank you very much rock pit) BHF will be the true test for me. Incidentally, I did the similar lap times on the old tires during practice session that I did on the new Powers in the race...but then again was probably mental since I was leaking fork oil all over my caliper :)
LT
I've raced the new power ones and the new pirelli's. The power one's felt great but I was 6 seconds slower at RA but it was May vs July. The real test will be at BHF coming up. Now that the suspension and clutch are refreshed should be pretty apples to apples.
Melk-Man, Please re-read my post. IT said nothing about Michelins. I only spoke of Pirelli's Tire.
Pirelli has a fantastic Contingency program as well, Very comparable if you are making your decision based on that but I dont think you are based on your post.
I am not going to get into a pissing match about who has a better tire, all I can ask you to do is give the Pirelli a try. Sure, I could tell you about how Pirelli's are constantly improving, applying knowledge from World Superbike and World Supersport right into our tires. I could talk about what compound Ben Spies prefers or why Haga likes a certain rear compound. I could tell you that many or our tires have been updated from the tires that were coming off the truck just 6 months ago. Not major changes, but lots of small incremental changes that add up in the end. I could tell you Pirelli does not wait years to make things better. I could also tell you another great thing about Pirelli is EVERYONE gets the same tires. Our top Riders, get there tires off the same stack as you and me. You wont see a Pirelli Guy winning on tires that are "Specials" that nobody else can get.
I could tell you alot of things about the tires and throw out riders names and championships. blah blah blah... But, I wont...
I know of two things to be true:
1. There are alot of misconceptions in this sport, and the only person you can trust is yourself.
2. After seeing how much free product is given away for endorsements, i stopped trusting magazines and winning riders a long time ago. I make up my mind by how it feels, not what some salesman tells me it can do.......
For those that are wondering how the price can go down once the development costs and investments are paid off do a Google Search on the following phrases, you should be able to come up with an answer. Other people can explain it much better than me.
Life-Cycle Cost
Life-Cycle Cost Analysis
Return on Investment
I wouldn't say that Pirelli's Contingency program is good at all. I know they are trying to improve it, but it's been 3 months since we raced at VIR and I have yet to see anything come in. All the other Manufacturers already paid out. I hear from Pirelli that all my results are in, verified, but they're waiting for the next "payout period." I have 3 rounds in a row coming up and no tire money, so what do I do?
The Pirelli is by far the best quality and long lasting tire I have ever been on. Just need them to get on the ball with payouts. I ran the front down to nothing recently and it was telling me exactly what was going on. It was sliding through 6-7 at Summit, but it was controllable. Amazing.
whats really funny is that if Melka was connected to Pirelli and DB were selling MIchelins you could more than likely take their posts, and simply change the name of the poster. they are both doing a great job promoting "their brand" which is a VERY important part of any business model or sponsorship obligation. And everything they are saying seems to be accurate down to the last detail... that being said...
All the tires are sticky, guys go fast on everything..
Youre tire selection should be more about
1. Support. Will i have tires available and can I ask questions any time I am on the track
2. Confidnece. Am I happy with whats underneath me enough to KNOW they will hook up when I need em too
3. Affordability. If running dunlops means I dont race hald my weekends, I might look elsewhere
4. Contingency. Why spend money to chase down $200 if you win, if youre 5 seconds off a winning pace.
I'd rather dump money towards a guy/brand that supports me, the sport and my program. Lets be honest. Most kids out there really, it just doesnt matter what they are on. Really if any one of the big manufacturers offered you FREE tires, would you switch? I know I would!
whoever can provide the best package (see above) will be where you end up.
I dont have it all figured out, but I'm workin on it! :biggrin:
Quote from: red900 on May 21, 2009, 03:53:21 PM
I am not going to get into a pissing match about who has a better tire, all I can ask you to do is give the Pirelli a try. Sure, I could tell you about how Pirelli's are constantly improving, applying knowledge from World Superbike and World Supersport right into our tires. I could talk about what compound Ben Spies prefers or why Haga likes a certain rear compound. I could tell you that many or our tires have been updated from the tires that were coming off the truck just 6 months ago. Not major changes, but lots of small incremental changes that add up in the end. I could tell you Pirelli does not wait years to make things better. I could also tell you another great thing about Pirelli is EVERYONE gets the same tires. Our top Riders, get there tires off the same stack as you and me. You wont see a Pirelli Guy winning on tires that are "Specials" that nobody else can get.
I could tell you alot of things about the tires and throw out riders names and championships. blah blah blah... But, I wont...
Umm..you did. Or did i miss a weak attempt at sarcasm?
Quote from: tstruyk on May 21, 2009, 04:59:41 PM
whats really funny is that if Melka was connected to Pirelli and DB were selling MIchelins you could more than likely take their posts, and simply change the name of the poster. they are both doing a great job promoting "their brand" which is a VERY important part of any business model or sponsorship obligation. And everything they are saying seems to be accurate down to the last detail... that being said...
All the tires are sticky, guys go fast on everything..
Youre tire selection should be more about
1. Support. Will i have tires available and can I ask questions any time I am on the track
2. Confidnece. Am I happy with whats underneath me enough to KNOW they will hook up when I need em too
3. Affordability. If running dunlops means I dont race hald my weekends, I might look elsewhere
4. Contingency. Why spend money to chase down $200 if you win, if youre 5 seconds off a winning pace.
I'd rather dump money towards a guy/brand that supports me, the sport and my program. Lets be honest. Most kids out there really, it just doesnt matter what they are on. Really if any one of the big manufacturers offered you FREE tires, would you switch? I know I would!
whoever can provide the best package (see above) will be where you end up.
I dont have it all figured out, but I'm workin on it! :biggrin:
Very well said. I would vote for you before i vote for Obama.
Quote from: skidMARK on May 22, 2009, 12:45:33 AM
Very well said. I would vote for you before i vote for Obama.
Thanks a lot Mark....... now Timmay's gonna need to buy a bigger helmet!
The last time he was this diplomatic and eloquent was on Prom night! :kicknuts:
Quote from: red900 on May 21, 2009, 03:53:21 PM
I am not going to get into a pissing match about who has a better tire, all I can ask you to do is give the Pirelli a try. Sure, I could tell you about how Pirelli's are constantly improving, applying knowledge from World Superbike and World Supersport right into our tires. I could talk about what compound Ben Spies prefers or why Haga likes a certain rear compound. I could tell you that many or our tires have been updated from the tires that were coming off the truck just 6 months ago. Not major changes, but lots of small incremental changes that add up in the end. I could tell you Pirelli does not wait years to make things better. I could also tell you another great thing about Pirelli is EVERYONE gets the same tires. Our top Riders, get there tires off the same stack as you and me. You wont see a Pirelli Guy winning on tires that are "Specials" that nobody else can get.
I could tell you alot of things about the tires and throw out riders names and championships. blah blah blah... But, I wont...
Being of great intelligence this is my observation...
You didn't get into a pissing match, but you did pee in his cereal. It's great to compare product to World class stuff and the benefits that is received at the club level in the end. We just can't compare World level skilleed riders to the average club level and even top club level skill.
Now back to the question at hand. All the brands have their level of performance, but when it comes right down to it I only possess a certain amount of talent and courage to use the equipment that I purchase. If it were free I would be using it. Because it isn't I have to make the best choice for me.
I have not used the Pirelli and I hear good and bad things about them. My buddy does use them and won, but then again he hasn't received any sponsorship support.
Bridgestone for me has worked out well. Racing in classes that I am competitive in helps and actually receiving certs has been a Godsend. Last year Bridgestone paid for about half of my tire bill where I was fortunate to place on the podium for many of the races. At the end I also received another cert for winning a regional championship.
Michelin? I like the look of the Michelin and I am doing a little research of my own. Testing if you may, and I am liking them. I have yet to know the nuiances of the brand but I am just beginning my learning curve.
Burt, I will leave it to you to keep Timmay in check. Just think of it as I like to be encouraging. What do they say in child development? praise goes a long way.
Mark
Quote from: Burt Munro on May 22, 2009, 01:52:06 AM
Thanks a lot Mark....... now Timmay's gonna need to buy a bigger helmet!
The last time he was this diplomatic and eloquent was on Prom night! :kicknuts:
worked out well for me then too.. but in more of a "las vegas" kinda way!
Quote from: Helmsman on May 21, 2009, 07:23:51 PM
Umm..you did. Or did i miss a weak attempt at sarcasm?
yep...you missed it Will....dang french tire riders!
these threads always get into a pissing match.. 8) I may be shorter than some of ya, but I got a strong bladder.
Pirelli has a good tire for SURE. I don't think that was ever a question. Michelin has a better contingency program. I don't think anyone can dispute that, just look at what the payout is and how many riders need to be in the race. I know for a fact the payout in cash is very fast.. (not so fast with Pirelli as i have been told). This is not a determining factor for some racers, but does go a long way to getting faster riders on the tires that count on $$ , that then are seen by other rider/racers that then consider the brand. Win on sunday-sell on Monday was never so true. That being said.. Michelin will be selling alot more tires this year.
Quote from: MELK-MAN on May 27, 2009, 12:35:14 AM
these threads always get into a pissing match.. 8) I may be shorter than some of ya, but I got a strong bladder.
Pirelli has a good tire for SURE. I don't think that was ever a question. Michelin has a better contingency program. I don't think anyone can dispute that, just look at what the payout is and how many riders need to be in the race. I know for a fact the payout in cash is very fast.. (not so fast with Pirelli as i have been told). This is not a determining factor for some racers, but does go a long way to getting faster riders on the tires that count on $$ , that then are seen by other rider/racers that then consider the brand. Win on sunday-sell on Monday was never so true. That being said.. Michelin will be selling alot more tires this year.
Yeah, what he said.
Furthermore, Bib is way cooler a mascot than anyone else. Just try and contest that!
So I did a little testing of the performace of the tires tis past weekend. 70 plus laps before they are worn out but still holding traction. Just remember that I don't have the Melka type speed on this Ducati 748.
Next up is testing the performace of the Michelin contigency program with 2 race wins on the Take -off Michelins that Melka provided.
I'm pretty happy thus far.
Mark
They are all good tires depending on what your prefer, Contingency is close, tire sales are also close. Not sure why you would say there is some sort of tire shift going on, Hirsh sold 4 more michelins than i sold Pirelli's at Road America. Not much of a landslide if you ask me. But hey, if "everybody is doing it", then why not right??
Tire vendors in the midwest are friends, this is factual data.
Quote from: skidMARK on May 27, 2009, 04:06:25 PM
So I did a little testing of the performace of the tires tis past weekend. 70 plus laps before they are worn out but still holding traction. Just remember that I don't have the Melka type speed on this Ducati 748.
Next up is testing the performace of the Michelin contigency program with 2 race wins on the Take -off Michelins that Melka provided.
I'm pretty happy thus far.
Mark
YES! I was wondering how those worked out for ya Mark. THat is great to hear!
Greg,
It worked pretty good. I was practicing on what I am told was Nate Kerns Daytona take-offs 120/190 B-front and B-rear. Then to your V-front and B-rear 120/180. What a difference in the mannerisms of the bike. Turned in much quicker and seemed to have more traction on the side while leaned over allowing more trail brake. Seemed though that the rear spun up more but it could have been me going that much faster and driving-out harder. Frank told Marc, the owner of the Ducati 748 that the tire was done, but we used it anyway to a win.
Maybe I should try a new one next? Great tire.
Mark
If you race in the mid-west, you would be an absolute retard to not run Pirelli's. Set-aside the fact that almost every single michelin rider I know complains about the tendency to tuck the front over Dunlop and Pirelli, is the fact that the trackside service is basically unbeatable and the price is good for what you are getting. If you look at the pirelli forum, there is a very small number of people waiting for payouts compared to those who have already gotten theirs. Does Michelin have a forum, or Dunlop? I dont know if they do, but I do know that the only reason that Pirelli would go through the trouble of instituting a forum is to hear from the market what is good or what is bad. I personally dont have a single complaint about Pirelli's product or who they have chosen as dealers. My first weekend the Pirelli guy came to my pit out in the boonies in the middle of the day (the busiest time for tire dealers) to see how I was getting along. I thought that I was special, but I am not, cause he went to alot of pits that day.
Not trying to thread jack but Pirelli was getting a bad rap without an un-biased opinion, I dont get any free or discounted tires so there isnt any underlying reason to this post. Didn't Michelin get fired from Moto GP?
Quote from: GIGOLO on May 27, 2009, 11:30:45 PM
is the fact that the trackside service is basically unbeatable...
I think you would be REALLY hard pressed to find anyone that has had a negative experience with Tommy... ever
Overall I would say the tire service in the midewest is not a "swing" point...
QuoteIf you race in the mid-west, you would be an absolute retard to not run Pirelli's
Wasnt it just last season that DanO was chasin down Robbie Jensen... just sayin.
and really I didnt see where Pirelli was gettin a bad rap... I really didnt read all this crap though
Quote from: tstruyk on May 27, 2009, 11:59:19 PM
Wasnt it just last season that DanO was chasin down Robbie Jensen... just sayin.
Yeah cause Jensen and DanO would suck on any other tire :jerkoff:
just sayin.....
and the "non-retards" would suck on MIchelins?? :jerkoff:
:lmao:
thats my point... it really... REALLY doesnt matter as much as everyone would like to think it does.
Doesn't Jensen refuse to ride on anything but Michelin?
As a midwest rider who prefers Michelin, I can tell you that I'm just as happy with their product, support, and contingency as you are with Pirelli. This is a good thing because we all have great choices and awesome tire guys to help us, I'm just saying that it's not exclusive to one brand.
I've used the Diablo Supercorsas for a practice and a couple of trackdays this year and the Power Ones for a couple race weekends. They are both better than the PRs and other tires I've tried in the past, but it's hard to find much fault in the Power Ones so far. Put that together with fast contingency money straight to a debit card and $385 a set and they're hard to beat. Just my opinion.
Quote from: skidMARK on May 27, 2009, 11:16:58 PM
Greg,
It worked pretty good. I was practicing on what I am told was Nate Kerns Daytona take-offs 120/190 B-front and B-rear. Then to your V-front and B-rear 120/180. What a difference in the mannerisms of the bike. Turned in much quicker and seemed to have more traction on the side while leaned over allowing more trail brake. Seemed though that the rear spun up more but it could have been me going that much faster and driving-out harder. Frank told Marc, the owner of the Ducati 748 that the tire was done, but we used it anyway to a win.
Maybe I should try a new one next? Great tire.
Mark
The 190 rear will feel different, i found the turning side to side was only a tad slower but side grip was improved. Much of the additional side grip you felt was coming from the FRONT tire. From what video i have seen of PBIR, the V would be the front tire choice. THe B is a firmer carcas tire you may like with hard braking and turning in hard on the front brake trailing in..
Quote from: GIGOLO on May 27, 2009, 11:30:45 PM
If you race in the mid-west, you would be an absolute retard to not run Pirelli's. Set-aside the fact that almost every single michelin rider I know complains about the tendency to tuck the front over Dunlop and Pirelli, is the fact that the trackside service is basically unbeatable and the price is good for what you are getting. If you look at the pirelli forum, there is a very small number of people waiting for payouts compared to those who have already gotten theirs. Does Michelin have a forum, or Dunlop? I dont know if they do, but I do know that the only reason that Pirelli would go through the trouble of instituting a forum is to hear from the market what is good or what is bad. I personally dont have a single complaint about Pirelli's product or who they have chosen as dealers. My first weekend the Pirelli guy came to my pit out in the boonies in the middle of the day (the busiest time for tire dealers) to see how I was getting along. I thought that I was special, but I am not, cause he went to alot of pits that day.
Not trying to thread jack but Pirelli was getting a bad rap without an un-biased opinion, I dont get any free or discounted tires so there isnt any underlying reason to this post. Didn't Michelin get fired from Moto GP?
This is about the most unfounded and unfactual post i have seen in some time. Im feeling a case of idiocy come on even responding to such drivel.
- ".. didn't michelin get fired from MotoGP".. that is a laugh.
-I didn't know a tire mfgr. had to have it's own forum to be a good tire.
-Do a search on OTHER forums for payout issues with Pirelli contingency. Im sure payout issues will get better, but there are more than a few having issues. Michelin has issues sometimes as well but most issues are linked to not filling out the online 1 time a year form.
-As you found, SERVICE is a big part of why a rider chooses a tire brand. ALL the tire guys of ALL the brands work thier ASS off for the customers.
Pirelli makes a GREAT tire, i don't think the point anyone made was to bash Pirelli. There are fast guys and gals going good on all the top brands of tires.. but you need to get some facts together before posting it would appear.
Greg,
My next question is this about contingency. Now that I have won two races, signed up online with Michelin, product and stickers, contingency form at the races and signed by tech...now what is my next move? should I go back to the internet site and post my finishes? Is that done for me by...I don't know who??
I am retard but I have one some races.
Mark
What mike Gigolo meant to say is that he loves his tires and he would suggest others give them a try. He just gets very excited about a good product, no harm meant im sure... Plus he is also a professional shit disturber fresh from the school of Burt Munro :))
Was Dano running michelins or Dunlops during that event with Jensen? He is on Dunlops now and part of last season....
We have great support here in the Florida Region from all makes. Our Pirelli supplier in Leon Eddins is the best and really does give some good advice, even when I am on the Bridgestones (no manufacturers had tires to fit my FZR).
The only supplier that is a little short in suport is the Bridgestone with the least amount of clientel to support his business.
I know my past results that the Dunlops are great, but man the price!
Pirelli has been recommended to me by Chris at MotoCorse for my Ducati 800, but the Bridgestones have been working resonably well with a good amount of wins and great contingency. I have heard mixed opinions with the Pirelli for performance, contingency (cashing it in), and endurance. I have yet to try a set.
I am liking the Michelins on the 748 and I am seeing some good results. Maybe everyone else was just slower this weekend.
Mark
Quote from: red900 on May 28, 2009, 01:26:41 PM
Was Dano running michelins or Dunlops during that event with Jensen? He is on Dunlops now and part of last season....
doesnt really matter in the context, wasnt Pirellii and those guys are far from retards.
not a shot at Pirelli buy any means, just makin a point that guys go good on all the brands.
I'm glad someone brought this topic up. I've been considering a switch for a while now. I started out using pirellis on my Ducati 1000 (LW Bike) because that's what was recommended to me by the fast guys and I needed the confidence boost that comes with knowing that fast guys are going fast on identical tire / bike setup. I have been very happy with them for the last 4 or 5 years, won some races with them and pushed them for hours and hours in the MOTO-ST races.
Bottom line is the contingency STINKS. I still haven't gotten my measly $70 for my Daytona win in October. It's always a fight and the payouts are so weak it's incredible. Also, the Pirellis used to be a bargain, but now the prices have creeped up to $430 a set. The $299 sale tires are sold out before you even get to the track so forget that.
I don't see support as an issue since all of the vendors for FL seem great.
Michelin would seem like the choice given thier contingency program, and I'm sure they are great tires, but I'm not sure that I would be able to get up to speed very quickly on them, since making big changes tends to upset my confidence. I lowered my seat 2 inches and I'm still not matching my old times after a full weekend.
Then there's the issue of re stickering my bike which I'm not too excited about.
Mark glad to hear you like the Michelins, where did you get the takeoffs? Maybe that would be a good way to experiment a bit.
Gino,
You are right about the confidence based on what the fast guys say. I believe for me the encouragement and confidence comes from what Greg has communicated and also what Brad Graham have displayed in results. Both have been gracious in lending a hand while I do my learning.
The take-offs have been a cheap alternative to start with, but may not totally give the proper evaluative results of what a new set would provide. The first set of take-offs came from Nate Kerns bike that Marc bought for $90. Somewhere about 15 Daytona laps on them. The second set that I raced with this weekend comes from Greg and I think it was $125. Still a great deal over new.
I am very happy with the results that I have achieved for take-off tires and I believe that I will have even more confidence on tires that are fresh in new condition. I am also of the belief though that these tires get better as they get older, but that is based solely on the first set of take-offs and the ability of the tire(at my pace) to stick up to the 70 lap number I achieved with the rear 190.
One thing I have noticed is that the wear of the tire is pretty good as compared to others at my pace or slower. I don't think anyone has yet figured out why the tire wear is what it is at PBIR. I don't seem to have those problems. None of my bikes have been set up by the race professionals but I have tried to set-up a balanced bike as per advice commonly found. from there it has been trial and error to find what I like. I am certain we used your DS for a baseline geometry setting and Chris has shared those numbers.
Subjectively: The michelins stick even at full lean. The front wear is phenominal on the B-front. The V-front is a lot faster turning than the B-front especially when mated with the 180 rear. I have yet to find the traction limit of the front although I would hang pretty good with most of the Expert field in practice.
Objectively: My lap times continued to get lower and lower with each session. I did my fastest practice (best lap) on the last session and the tire was what I deemed as completely worn based on the amount of rubber left.
Quote from: skidMARK on May 28, 2009, 10:45:57 AM
Greg,
My next question is this about contingency. Now that I have won two races, signed up online with Michelin, product and stickers, contingency form at the races and signed by tech...now what is my next move? should I go back to the internet site and post my finishes? Is that done for me by...I don't know who??
I am retard but I have one some races.
Mark
Mark
you don't have to update your finishes. You should recieve an xbux Visa card in the mail sometime soon, and you can check on your $$ on the xbux website. You will get emails everytime your card is updated with cash, or debited when you spend money off of it.
Also, i would not say the tire is "better" when the outer rain sipe is totally worn , but the "NST" (near slick technology) does have the tire working better longer and the tire is not necessarily junk once that outer sipe is gone. The smaller tread pattern is part of the improvement if you ask me. The old PR tire had huge wide rain sipes that i think got the tire hotter faster on the drive part of the tire. They just did not last like the new tires or have that good feel at the end of the 2nd or 3rd sprint race.
Gino,
you won't have any trouble with "set up" or feeling out the new Power 1. They simply are soooo much better than the prior PR series, and im betting will give you equal confidence to any tire you have been on within the first few laps. Try a set, if you can't stand them, someone will buy the take offs. All mine are gone within a few days of any race weekend as the word is out they are very very good tires.
Greg,
Ok, cool on the contingency. I already have received the card and I am anxiously awaiting the balance to rise. I have been getting the emails for a variety of things so I know that works.
Thanks for the info on the tires. It really helps me develop a certain trust of the tires and the knowledge that I am going the right way with them.
Mark
THESE TIRES ARE AMAZING AND WILL MAKE ALL YOUR RIDING BUDDIES YOUR BITCH!!!!!!!!! :spank:
:biggrin:
I wasn't pushing the front yet this weekend, as i had a big crash on the brakes last year that is messing with my head a bit. But i can tell you the new Micheline rears flat out HOOK UP! It only spins with very nice warning and is very manageable when it does. And i could be pretty damn hand fisted on a 750 before it would think about spinning. Really helped me make up time i was losing on the brakes!
This weekend @ BHF I was trail braking hard enough to spin the front tire on the rim.... V front.... nuff said? :cheers:
Quote from: Sobottka on May 31, 2009, 10:12:58 PM
This weekend @ BHF I was trail braking hard enough to spin the front tire on the rim.... V front.... nuff said? :cheers:
+ 1 the fronts were hooking up amazingly well this weekend. We ran a C rear in the endurance race, and over 77 laps the rear was capable of the same lap times as it was on the first lap. And when the thing came off the track it looked perfect, as in no snipes missing, no profile shape change from rubber loss, nothing. Im confident the tire could have made it for a 4 hour, unreal on a 1000 running front of the pack pace.
Wanna talk about great tire wear, go over and look at Jason Farrells Pirellis from the 77 Lap ASRA Race this weekend in which HE WON THE RACE OVERALL. He raced the tires again later and won another race on them.
WHAT IS WITH THE HUGE TEXT??
Hmm- great tire wear?
How about this.
Step 1- see Dustin at Road America, get Diablo Supercorsa's mounted up for the SV.
Step 2- Road America weekend- do Practice, Team Challenge, and 4 Sprint Races.
Step 3- Ride two Track Days on them after that, and do double sessions a few times during those trackdays.
Step 4- Come into Blackhawk this weekend on the same tires, do practice, a Sprint Race, and ANOTHER Team Challenge on them.
Now they are finally done for. Thanks Dustin! You will be seeing me soon for another set. The Pirelli's ROCK!
Well, like I stated. 70 laps total on the Michelin and the front didn't look done. The rear had no more siping at the edge of the tire, but man did it hook up. All this on a heavy as heck 748, turning times that were faster than some 600s(EX) and slower than most. Nate Kern did the first 15 or so laps and I added the rest. I changed them to another set of take-offs for the racing just because I was thinking that, "they've gotta be worn out by now".
All this at the new and improved Palm Beach International Raceway where it has been brutal on tires. I do know that my buddy on his lightweight bike and Pirellis were wondering if he could make it the weekend.
Mark
We also ran the entire Team Challenge on an R6 using the Michelin B rear and V front with no issues. I decided to push the limits, because i'm cheap, and ran 3 sprint races on that same set of tires. I bought another rear tire because I thought I'd need it, but the rear kept sticking. I set my fastest lap 1:13.6 in the last race. The tires still look perfect. I think all the tires can be made to work, but when you compare, price, longevity, consistency at all tracks, and contingency, Michelins are the obvious choice for me.
Quote from: howlieboy on June 02, 2009, 12:40:34 AM
We also ran the entire Team Challenge on an R6 using the Michelin B rear and V front with no issues. I decided to push the limits, because i'm cheap, and ran 3 sprint races on that same set of tires. I bought another rear tire because I thought I'd need it, but the rear kept sticking. I set my fastest lap 1:13.6 in the last race. The tires still look perfect. I think all the tires can be made to work, but when you compare, price, longevity, consistency at all tracks, and contingency, Michelins are the obvious choice for me.
Kurt,
So how many laps did you end up with? What times were you turning at the end of life of that set?
Mark
Quote from: skidMARK on June 02, 2009, 06:37:36 AM
Kurt,
So how many laps did you end up with? What times were you turning at the end of life of that set?
Mark
I did a 6.5 at gateway on an 80 lap rear tire and 100 lap front tire. That is about 3/4 of a second off of lap record (owned by Matt Hall) Proof is in the puddin'!!!
Quote from: howlieboy on June 02, 2009, 12:40:34 AM
We also ran the entire Team Challenge on an R6 using the Michelin B rear and V front with no issues. I decided to push the limits, because i'm cheap, and ran 3 sprint races on that same set of tires. I bought another rear tire because I thought I'd need it, but the rear kept sticking. I set my fastest lap 1:13.6 in the last race. The tires still look perfect. I think all the tires can be made to work, but when you compare, price, longevity, consistency at all tracks, and contingency, Michelins are the obvious choice for me.
I did the same thing with the same set up had 71 laps in the TC and by the end of the third sprint race I was starting to spin up the rear on right handers just a little bit, still pretty good longevity, and there's plenty left for track days. Could just be the pressure was off too, b/c I left my front V on and used my RA take off rear for my last sprint which felt great and already had 7 races and one endurance race on it.
Skidmark, we ran a couple of 12's in the TC, mostly 13-14's with some higher times in traffic. I ran mostly 14's in the sprint races, dipping into the 13's on the last two races. I never slid the tires once, but I'm pretty cautious at BHF.
I will say that after being at WSB this past weekend and spending some time in the Pirelli service tent that I was very happy to see that the guys running WSS were running the same tires we carry on our truck. SC2 front and SC1 rear, and they looked awesome even after being abused at that level.
The WSB guys were also using general production 16.5 slicks. And they still set record times in qualifying and race time.
I like that Pirelli's development is directly relateable to the product they are selling. Meaning that a prototype front and a prototype rear is usually available at each weekend for riders to try. If the prototype starts to take hold as a rider favorite it replaces the current tire and the line is updated, directly to consumers like us, on the kinds of bikes we ride.
Pirelli has made a huge effort to overcome some of the issues it has struggled with in order to provide North American customers with the best trackside support through a network of trackside service providers that are truly interested in providing real SERVICE.
Also, with respect to contingency, the new North American road race manager has made the contingency system a personal point of interest to make sure that it is worked out to be more efficient. Pirelli contingency has gone through the Italian Pirelli headquarters in Milan, through the Pirelli corporately controlled website. Many steps have taken place to streamline the system for quicker payouts on a reloadable AMEX card which started shipping just over a week ago. It is the plan for Pirelli NA to have a system completely controlled by their office here in the states for 2010. It is the riders responsibility to fill out their forms correctly and make sure that there are large enough grids to earn their contingency, but I am confident that the payouts will be handled much more promptly for the remainder of this season and will only get quicker as we go and approach 2010 with the new system updates. The Vice President of Pirelli NA has staked his job on it.
Resume
Hey Greg- received my Xbux of $200 on June 4th for my May 25th win at PBIR. That is pretty fast.
Mark
I got mine from the 31st at BHF today, looks like they're up to speed now. $780 for six amateur races is pretty sweet, loving Michelin so far this year.
Not bad if you ask me
cool !!
I was paid for Blackhawk w/ in DAYS of racing there last weekend. 8)
That's the best turn around, I've ever seen.