I have a o6 R6 with a Leo Vince Full Ti race system and a PC mapped for U4.2 putting out pretty decent #'s (I think)... around 115hp (Dynojet)...
I'm racing a few selected ASRA events this year and have some questions...
1. Any of you who have raced ASRA Sportbike been over the 105hp limit on their factory pro dyno?
2. What kind of #'s are average for a set up like mine?
3. Is there anything special as far as bike tech that differs from CCS in any way that I need to be aware of?
Thanks in advance... :thumb:
RAD
I think your bike will be ok. The 105hp limit is about 15% or so below what the dyno your bike is on typically. A supersport bike making 105hp on the asra dyno is a pretty strong supersport bike. Multiply your 115hp by .85 and that is about what the asra dyno would read..i think..
We run a Factory Pro dyno in the shop. I would expect a bike like yours with U4.2 and a good map to make somewhere in the range of 96 to 102 hp. Get your bike on the Dyno early int the weekend to check your hp.
Quote from: Greg_Williams on April 13, 2009, 09:43:59 AM
We run a Factory Pro dyno in the shop. I would expect a bike like yours with U4.2 and a good map to make somewhere in the range of 96 to 102 hp. Get your bike on the Dyno early int the weekend to check your hp.
Really, only 96 hp for a newer 600 on a Factory Pro... They aught to move 600's to the lightweight class!! :biggrin:
Quote from: Greg_Williams on April 13, 2009, 09:43:59 AM
We run a Factory Pro dyno in the shop. I would expect a bike like yours with U4.2 and a good map to make somewhere in the range of 96 to 102 hp. Get your bike on the Dyno early int the weekend to check your hp.
I'd agree with Greg on that. Seems like a bike with 118HP on a Dynojet dyno will be below 104HP on the Factory Pro Dyno. Might be close if the weather swings. Always check it out on the dyno and go from there.
So as a hypothetical situation:
You put your bike on the dyno before your race and you're over the 105 HP limit. What are the typical solutions to get it under the limit? Different fuel and/or map? Restrict the airflow?
If I was in a hurry, I'd switch to a non-oxygenated fuel, or replace the oil with some 50 weight... that'll probably kill a couple of HP in parisitic loss.
But like Greg alluded to, 105hp on a Factory Pro is a lot. It would take some pretty meticulous tuning to get a stock motor'd 600 to that point.
The "corrected" hp equation should predict HP pretty closely regardless of weather... and it'll correct in either direction. This weekend in KC the weather was better than the ASME standard... which "corrected" my hp down instead of up. I kept seeing 98-99hp real-time on the screen, but after the correction it went down to 97.5 hp.
Duct tape.
yes, yes how could I forgot about duct tape... should I apply that to my eyes or my ears?
To the air cleaner.
How do #'s from the Factory Pro compare to the Dynojet 250IX Motorcycle Atv/Utv dynamometer ?
My '01 R6, after many, many adjustments, finally came up with 97.1 Hp, 44+ tq. (corrected) on the 250IX.
How will it differ?
BTW, for some reason, it likes to run a bit fat...
There is a break down on factory pro's website. Also a large collection of dyno runs for lots of different bikes. According to FP, a stock R6 should make somewhere between 86-92 if its running properly.
If you're anywhere between 90 and 130 on a FP dyno, they claim that a DynoJet will read about 15% higher. However, builders will tell you that the difference can be as much as 18%.
The short answer is that there is no hard and fast correlation between FP and DJ. It'll be somewhere between 12%-20% depending on a large variety of factors.
After all, you're comparing a dyno that can hold the engine at any RPM and throttle position and measures the electrical power required to hold it there (a direct measurement of hp) to a dyno where a big heavy wheel is spun up and HP is calculated based upon how fast the wheel spins up... which is affected by crank weight, wheel/tire weight, throttle opening speed, and about a hundred other factors.
Hum interesting. My 05 R6 (factory ss engine) made 108 hp on the Honda of Houston dyno. They did a poor job so brought it to Andy Marcer (S. African) @ Metric Motorcycles and he got it up to 102 hp on his factory pro after calling Graves and spending a good part of 3 days on the dyno and tweaking 3 different maps. My main problem was a major power hole @ 7k. The hole is still there but I keep the bike above 8K even on the slowest corners. It should make over 120 once I use the MR9 and have the frigid (dense) snowy air of Road A. in May!
Yep, 102 on a factory pro sounds about right for a newer R6. They're about 10hp up on the older carb'd R6's. Like I said, 105 is a lot. Factory team SS motors make that much. I suspect that a late model factory team SB 600 would be around 110-115 on a factory pro... before they had to switch to Sunoco!
Steve, you found out the expensive way that its extremely difficult to optimize a map on a FI bike without a load control dyno. The DynoJet crowd is mistakenly convinced that there is a single magical O2 number that makes best power everywhere. If I thought it didn't matter, I wouldn't drive 4 hours to Kansas City to do my dyno work... plus Greg's guys are super good to work with!
What fuel were you running for the 102hp on the factory pro?
Scott, have you been on a brand new dyno jet dyno? They arent like the old ones, the are now capable of a lot of the things the FP ones are and continue to be capable of a lot of things the FP are not.
Quote from: SV88 on April 14, 2009, 01:53:50 PM
Hum interesting. My 05 R6 (factory ss engine) made 108 hp on the Honda of Houston dyno. They did a poor job so brought it to Andy Marcer (S. African) @ Metric Motorcycles and he got it up to 102 hp on his factory pro after calling Graves and spending a good part of 3 days on the dyno and tweaking 3 different maps. My main problem was a major power hole @ 7k. The hole is still there but I keep the bike above 8K even on the slowest corners. It should make over 120 once I use the MR9 and have the frigid (dense) snowy air of Road A. in May!
LOL, a power hole on a 600 SS bike at 7000 rpm? Who would have thunk! If that thing is below 10 rpm you arent going anywhere fast, shit my SV barely saw 7000 rpm!
p.s. you ready for that SV motor build yet? Ive been building one after another for the last few months, learning all kinds of new stuff!
Yeah, Ben,
I hear they've gotten up to speed, and have a lot of expensive options, including eddy current brakes. Its seems as if they are well suited to work with Dynojet's other products and that's on purpose. They've really mastered the marketing side of tuning. Unfortunately, I'd bet 9 out of 10 Dynojets out there are simple inertia types and don't have load control or exhaust gas analysis other than O2.
There's other good brands too... Land and Sea, Mustang, all are available with either an eddy current or water-brake. Whether you believe the HP numbers are inflated or not is not an issue. The main deal is whether your dyno can do steady-state and the type of exhaust analysis. When someone says "Factory Pro" I know its a load control dyno and I know that power measurements will be consistent between dyno's... something that DynoJet has yet to master.
Finally, the dyno operator is paramount. As Steve found out, many dealership level shops have neither the talent or understanding to tune properly. To them, the most important thing is selling dyno runs @ $70 to squids that want to bench-race. For them, meticulous tuning is just a pain in the ass, as compared to easy and profitable oem warrantee work.
I need to get with you for some flywheel machine work. Any plans the next few weeks? We have been dirt riding like crazy, you?
Quote from: 123user on April 14, 2009, 07:05:44 PM
Yeah, Ben,
I hear they've gotten up to speed, and have a lot of expensive options, including eddy current brakes. Its seems as if they are well suited to work with Dynojet's other products and that's on purpose. They've really mastered the marketing side of tuning. Unfortunately, I'd bet 9 out of 10 Dynojets out there are simple inertia types and don't have load control or exhaust gas analysis other than O2.
There's other good brands too... Land and Sea, Mustang, all are available with either an eddy current or water-brake. Whether you believe the HP numbers are inflated or not is not an issue. The main deal is whether your dyno can do steady-state and the type of exhaust analysis. When someone says "Factory Pro" I know its a load control dyno and I know that power measurements will be consistent between dyno's... something that DynoJet has yet to master.
Finally, the dyno operator is paramount. As Steve found out, many dealership level shops have neither the talent or understanding to tune properly. To them, the most important thing is selling dyno runs @ $70 to squids that want to bench-race. For them, meticulous tuning is just a pain in the ass, as compared to easy and profitable oem warrantee work.
I have to agree...
- Note; Below is from my understanding and my history of old school tuning.
I am sure some will disagree and/or have more current experience. -
With as many different units out there, there are just as many different results.
Then again, if each of those units were ran using the same software calibrated to the individual unit, I suspect the results would be close if not the same.
As for loading vs. inertia units, the inertia's are best for quick, easy and cheaper runs and the loaders are best for more itracate(sp?) time consuming runs.
With inertia's, you are only measuring how fast the tire accelerates, with exception to exhaust readings.
They will give you a quick, simple reading that will offer the customer a chance to see where their power curve is and if A/F is available, a chance to tune their bike better than by the "seat-of-the-pants" or plug checking methods...
You can get close but not as well as a loaded pull. Mainly because inertias are used at wide open and loaded's can be ran at all throttle positions, not to say inertias can't but are less suited for the application.
With loaded units, you are measuring how well a vehicle maintains a given speed vs. load (drag or throttle), with exception to exhaust readings.
Another problem with inertias is that they can not increase load with speed as in the case if aerodynamic drag.
The faster a vehicle goes, the higher the drag/load.
As for A/F vs. gas analizers, A/f will get you quite close to a good tune but, it will not tell you the Whole story of how your vehicle is running.
One very important point are the NO #'s, If they are low, you are OK, if they are high, you have too much ignition timing.
The same can be tested using an EGT but no-one in the general market will OK a bung install in their expensive pipe just for a dyno run.
As for the other gasses,
Low Hc's are good and indicate how well the fuel is burning.
CO's tell you how rich/lean you are, High CO's in low RPM for torque, low CO's at high RPM for HP.
As for the other gasses like CO2 and whatever else, I don't know.
What I would like to see, if they are around, I don't know all of the dyno's out there but, if any of them use both a gas anilizer And A/F at the same time. It would be interesting to see those results....
On another note, I have yet to see a dyno driven fan to simulate ram-air at different speeds.
Now, if it is wheel driven, the diffence in air density(what the fan sees) will affect the amount of power it takes to drive the fan and affect the readings, not to mention parastatic losses.
If the fan was electricly driven and it's output was controlled by the dyno, we could have something...
I think the jury is still out on ram air. Even in the oem test setting it is very difficult to aquire quantitative data. Everyone agrees it works... very few can prove how its working. Especially on large twins where airbox pressure vary wildly. It's much like the two stroke was 30 years ago... trial and error. I suspect that this will change as better computer models are created.
The great thing about the the EGA is that since carbon monoxide is not a naturally occuring gas, it can accurately predict engine performance throughout the rev range, whereas o2 requirements are constantly changing because of different pumping efficiencies throughout the rev range.
To be honest, I think an inertia dyno is probably ok for carb'd road or drag racing applications. It is telling you how well your machine can accelerate. The brake dynos are very important when tuning FI street bikes... trying to get rid of stumbles at cruising rpm.
Gotta chime in... Dynojets can do load control, and for mapping with Powercommanders do it extensively. You can also set your target AF per cell if you wanna get crazy.
Quote from: 123user on April 14, 2009, 07:05:44 PM
When someone says "Factory Pro" I know its a load control dyno and I know that power measurements will be consistent between dyno's... something that DynoJet has yet to master.
How the funk are you qualifing that statement? Support it with facts.
If that is true, why does my dyno always read the same as the AMA dyno no matter what track they were at?