About the Buell this weekend.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=buell0321
I guess if it's a HP limited class it is sort of ok. Problem is torque matters too.
Weight matters too.
Honda and Suzuki didn't want the HP/weight limits. So, they are the ones to talk to.
They would have been limited to 120HP with 360 pound bikes. Probably would have left their top flight teams very close to going over the HP limit and even blowing over that limit. What's the problem?
I guess the point is if you beat a 600 with an 1125 it kinda takes away from some of your glory. Considering how many people voted that way it seems pretty clear how it looks to people. Most people understand that a twin doesn't match a I4 CC per CC but giving it almost double the displacment is going to look funny even if you have matched power and all of that.
All 3 of my bikes are Twins BTW I am not a twin basher. Even once had a Buell.
Ducati built their empire upon having a displacement advantage.
AMA wanted Suzuki to homologate the GSXR750. The Japanese manufactures got what they wanted.
If it is actually a huge on track advantage, one should expect that a lot of private teams will immediately get rid of their Japanese or Euro bikes to have the bike that some are calling an advantage. Or wouldn't one expect that these teams would have started with the Buell in the beginning as they recognized that there was an actual on track advantage?
Or does Eslick just ride the shit out of the thing?
Eslick rides the shit out of it, no doubt about that. It's just too bad that AMA/DMG screwed up the classification of that bike so bad that he'll never get the credit he deserves.
The thing is 1125cc! it's racing against 600s, there is no argument that it's properly classified. If it said Ducati on it it would be in american superbike.
I know it's much slower than a 1098, but if you got a 1098 down to the HP limit, it still wouldn't be legal.
They've been bending the rules forever to try to get a buell to be competitive, and they finally went far enough that it is.
1098R's are in American Superbike. I know of no one that has a standard 1098 in American Superbike.
Did Ducati attempt to put the 1098 in Daytona Sportbike? Aprilia is in there, but no one is complaining even though it is certainly 400cc's larger than common 600's in the class. Does 125cc's make all the difference? If so, then should Barney be finishing further back?
Ducati wouldn't race the 1098 in this series because it isn't a current model. Only current models are homolgated. 1098R (1198cc) and 1198/1198S in American Superbike and the 848 in Daytona Sportbike. Since the 1198 and 848 are current models that is what Ducati did. It doesn't make sense to the sales and marketing folks to race a model that is no longer sold unless there is a very good reason to do it.
If Hackings factory 600 can't stay with the 1125R down the straights then the 1125R must have a power and/or torque advantage. I have only raced twins since 1999. I raced both twins and fours from 1996 and only fours before that time - when did we start David 1986? I believe twins need some help to compete with fours. 200~250cc seems like enough to even things up with the rest of the rules basically the same. The twins shouldn't be allowed to be any bigger than 850cc or if they are then the fours should be allowed to 750 or 800cc.
The Daytona Sportbike class seems out of wack to me. Aprilia gets a 1000? Buell gets a 1125? Not air cooled push rod stuff, liquid cooled dual overhead cam twins. Don't get me wrong I like to see twins race and beat the fours. This just doesn't seem balanced at all. In American Superbike Pegram's 1198cc twin seems to be matched pretty well with the 1000 fours. I bet if he had one of his last seasons 848's in Daytona Sportbike he'd be right there with the 600's like he was last season. As Ben Bostrom said on TV last night, people want to see a race between brands not someone all alone. Passing, dicing, mixing it up, that is what he wants too! DMG didn't get this one right, class adjustments probably should be made.
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 23, 2009, 05:40:54 PM
David, Ducati wouldn't race the 1098 in this series because it isn't a current model. Only current models are homolgated. 1098R (1198cc) in American Superbike and the 848 in
Only models the manufacture homologates are homologated. Did they homologate the 1198R, a current model?
Either way, it was the illustration of a point.
If Buell has such a large advantage, they should have finished single file. One after the other. But they didn't. I'm sure adjustments will be made to "even" things out. Didn't Hacking run the fastest lap times in race #2? How is that possible if the Buell has such a huge advantage?
BTW, I think the poll is as intelligent as the website that started it. IMHO, plain ass stupid.
You might not like the website but lots do and Soup has been around and is well respected. What really matters is perception and as you can see in the poll most people think it's pretty sad. Perception matters much more than any reality in this world. Either way Buell is going to loose. If they win, people are going to see an 1125 CC machine beating a 600 cc machine and that looks sad. If they loose they will see a 600cc Machine beating an 1125 and that looks sad too. Only the Buell riders will justify it and think it's ok. As for why they did not line up 1125's. Well some riders could not turn those lap times on any bike so that point is mute in my opinion. What is really at stake here is they want to try to get the Harley riders interested in racing to get that money. I just doubt that will ever happen. You do meet the Harley rider here and there that is into racing but most really just do not care. It is like the time I parked my Duc among a group of them and they started talking to me about my Japanese bike.
Soup is respected by some for it's pictures, but there's so much grandstanding inside of it that makes it only an Enquirer gig to many insiders.
If you have a secret that you want to let out, that's where you go, even if it isn't true. That's why Honda made so much use of them, in addition to Cycle News, last year. They tried to spin out of so many facts. Honda wanted 600 Superbikes in the 90's, and they even tried early again this decade. Ask Kevin Elliott and Kenny Abbott how that went and if they got paid like they were promised.
David, there is no 1198R the bike is named 1098R due in part to Troy Bayliss winning the WSBK title on it in 2008, it is in fact a 1198cc machine. It is possible that in 2010 in could be renamed the 1198R but I have no information about that. Ducati homolgated the 1198cc SBK's 1098R/1198S/1198 and the 848 not the 1098S/1098 models from 2007 & 2008.
When Eslick was on a 600 - a very well prepped and fast 600 did he ever beat Hacking in a straight fight. I don't think so. The Buell has a significant advantage, no they don't run inline as in all bike racing the rider makes the biggest difference but the bikes have a role that can alter the results. That is all - my point is they appear to be out of balance. It is too far in the twins favor. I'm a twins kind of rider and it seems wrong to me. Oh well, I'm climbing down off my box now. tOm :thumb:
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 11:12:22 AM
When Eslick was on a 600 - a very well prepped and fast 600 did he ever beat Hacking in a straight fight. I don't think so.
I can't pull all the results to give you an answer in every previous case.
However, I will say that the previous program has left a huge advantage to the distributor/manufacturer teams, Hacking being a part of them more so than Grant could have ever gotten for his riders, etc.
Riders do get better too, as you recognize. Spies is not the same rider now or two years ago that he was for John Ulrich. Danny has been moving forward for quite some time, and now he has a fit with his team. Not to mention that the testing schedule that Hacking has is certainly different from the testing schedule that he had in years past where he started in October. What's happening is not unreasonable.
"WABBIT SEASON"
Duck season, FIRE!
Doesn't matter. I win as the AMA is following my lead. :biggrin:
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 11:12:22 AM
When Eslick was on a 600 - a very well prepped and fast 600 did he ever beat Hacking in a straight fight. I don't think so.
When was Eslick ever on a front line 600 when Hacking was on 600s? Last time those two raced together (the season at least) Jamie punted Danny into oblivion (while Danny was on subpar machinery). There are 2 other extraordinarily talented racers on 1st class buells, one of them is arguably the most experienced and versatile racer left in the AMA, and neither have been able to get anywhere near Eslick. Give the boy some credit, he is doing something on a bike that no one else in the country can (or has) do.
Quote from: benprobst on March 24, 2009, 01:52:55 PM
When was Eslick ever on a front line 600 when Hacking was on 600s? Last time those two raced together (the season at least) Jamie punted Danny into oblivion (while Danny was on subpar machinery). There are 2 other extraordinarily talented racers on 1st class buells, one of them is arguably the most experienced and versatile racer left in the AMA, and neither have been able to get anywhere near Eslick. Give the boy some credit, he is doing something on a bike that no one else in the country can (or has) do.
Agreed, Ben!
Quote from: benprobst on March 24, 2009, 02:03:49 PM
Damn! And I dont even like Buells!!
LOL!
Ducati's don't do it for me. But I recognize the difference in the rules for them.
Really, the HP/weight thing was great, but, again, Mel Harris and Henry Ray Abrams didn't want that.
At Daytona, it looked like the bikes were level. Of course, Speed no longer plays the race until a week later so will have to see.
On the topic of perception as a interesting side note. I once got in trouble at work for having a graphic of the "Don't tread on me" flag.
Quote from: ktd on March 24, 2009, 02:19:12 PM
On the topic of perception as a interesting side note. I once got in trouble at work for having a graphic of the "Don't tread on me" flag.
Strange. Why is it objectionable? Are they addicted to Hopium?
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cardcow.com%2Fimages%2Fdont-tread-on-me-patriotic-45612.jpg&hash=c9ee7d2cf0f4f89a86bd3b781e01727190493281)
Quote from: Super Dave on March 24, 2009, 02:32:18 PM
Are they addicted to Hopium?
HOPIUM! The other recreational drug! :biggrin:
It was the government and I had done a stupid thing and reported some corruption I had been witness to. So they were looking for anything they could to make me look dangerous. They said it was a threatening image. I was taken to the security office, interviewed and kind of given every chance to get angry and do something stupid.
This is the story on the person I had reported. She finally lost here job but not before I had to leave. I gave up a quit my job and moved on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Callahan
I thought that Danny had the best machinery that Grant could get for him? Was it just crap? He seemed pretty fast on it? IDK but you missed my point - Nothing suddenlly made Danny so fast. Hes was not in this position last race of the season last year and suddenly doubling up at the latest AMA round. You know better than that. He's not Ben Spies either
It sounds like you think the Buell 1125R is about even with a Japanese 600. Is that the case? IMaybe Buel cc's are different than metric cc's? :wtf:
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 02:47:01 PM
I thought that Danny had the best machinery that Grant could get for him? Was it just crap? He seemed pretty fast on it? IDK but you missed my point - Nothing suddenlly made Danny so fast. Hes was not in this position last race of the season last year and suddenly doubling up at the latest AMA round. You know better than that. He's not Ben Spies either
It sounds like you think the Buell 1125R is about even with a Japanese 600. Is that the case? IMaybe Buel cc's are different than metric cc's? :wtf:
Grants machinery is first class (or was). But Jamie was long gone at that point. On Grants machinery Danny qualified on the front row 3 or 4 times, led a handful or races, and put it on the box at least twice. From 3rd to 1st with some of the 600 talent being move out of the class or onto slower bikes is not that far fetched. It wasnt just the Buell. how about Michael Barnes, nothing made him suddenly slow (out of the top 5), but with your logic becuase he is on a Buell he is now finishing in 10th, damn that Buell is slow!!. So one guy goes from podium finisher on motorcycles in the lower portion of teir 2 bikes to a winner on the Buell. And another guy goes from a podium finisher on motorcycles at the top of 2nd teir bikes to finishing on the edge and out of the top 10 on the Buell. Maybe the Buell is actually super slow and should be allowed to be lighter!!
Quote from: ktd on March 24, 2009, 02:45:29 PM
It was the government and I had done a stupid thing and reported some corruption I had been witness to. So they were looking for anything they could to make me look dangerous. They said it was a threatening image. I was taken to the security office, interviewed and kind of given every chance to get angry and do something stupid.
This is the story on the person I had reported. She finally lost here job but not before I had to leave. I gave up a quit my job and moved on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Callahan
A riding school mentor of mine worked for NASA.
He was let go by some new people above him in administrative positions. She proceeded to hire all kinds of people that she knew from her academic work into NASA. She was working yet on her degree, but over saw all kinds of engineers that had vast amounts of experience, patents, etc. They were leaders in their field globally.
At his exit interview, he said, "I am being fired for my age and experience." The exit interviewer was shocked he said this, but he was required to take the interview information. Eventually, the government had to pay him because he was actually fired because of his age and experience. Too bad you could have stuck it out. Government jobs are becoming corrupted with radicals everywhere, local and federal.
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 02:47:01 PM
It sounds like you think the Buell 1125R is about even with a Japanese 600. Is that the case? IMaybe Buel cc's are different than metric cc's? :wtf:
You should know better than anyone that CC's do not equal race wins, lap times, or speed (this is in no way directed at your riding or bikes or anything, just referencing you as a guy who has more expereince than most with bikes that have displacement advantage). I was resting my sore just crashed body on the front straight at gateway and my 2500 dollar SV650 almost ran into the back of your 50,000 dollar Duc1000 before I stoped being stupid and started paying attention. You had 400 extra cc how could my bike possibly keep up with yours?
Quote from: Super Dave on March 24, 2009, 02:56:25 PM
Government jobs are becoming corrupted with radicals everywhere, local and federal.
Hey dont you bring that republican smut in here!! Keep it in the dungeon. :biggrin: :lmao:
Quote from: benprobst on March 24, 2009, 03:02:50 PM
Hey dont you bring that republican smut in here!! Keep it in the dungeon. :biggrin: :lmao:
LOL! Has nothing to do with being Republican. I refer to radicals that really don't have a relationship to either conservatives or liberals. There seems to be a huge number of them in government.
Hey give me a break, I was racing with your dad long before you were born. Old guys is tough. I was resting my sore just crashed body on the front straight at gateway and my 2500 dollar SV650 almost ran into the back of your 50,000 dollar Duc1000 before I stoped being stupid and started paying attention. You had 400 extra cc how could my bike possibly keep up with yours?
Because it was a very slow (ie damaged engine) and I am old and equally as slow. :biggrin:
Seriously Ben I think the Buells are going to have a field day. Barney will likely get a feel for that thing and be up front before long. He is fast and the bike seems fast. If I remember correctly this is first real seat time on a twin.
David knows what it's like from his SV days. They are not faster because they are bigger, they are faster because they are faster. He'll have fun on his Buell this year. I'll see you at gateway a couple of times too. I'm riding a 848 this season, 1000 was too much for me... :lmao:
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 03:54:14 PM
Hey give me a break, I was racing with your dad long before you were born. Old guys is tough
Because it was a very slow (ie damaged engine) and I am old and equally as slow. :biggrin:
Seriously Ben I think the Buells are going to have a field day. Barney will likely get a feel for that thing and be up front before long. He is fast and the bike seems fast. If I remember correctly this is first real seat time on a twin.
David knows what it's like from his SV days. They are not faster because they are bigger, they are faster because they are faster. He'll have fun on his Buell this year. I'll see you at gateway a couple of times too. I'm riding a 848 this season, 1000 was too much for me... :lmao:
Imagine that, a Ducati with a motor problem. :biggrin:
I must say I disagree with you on the Buell, I think its going to be upfront for the duration of the season, but I just don't see it doing as well on flowing tracks that don't reward the explosive torque, or the high rpm wind pushing power the extra displacement allows. So far we have been to two tracks that couldn't suit the Buell more, and its results have been good but not mind blowing. It would have been in the top 5 at Daytona, though with the way Danny has to ride that thing, along with his and the bikes weight I wonder how the single front tire would have worked out if he would have been battling up front and really pushing into the corners to keep people behind him. IN the first race at Fontucky, he did control the race handily, though I think the contenders were surprised he had the speed to make the break and didn't respond like they would have normally. In the second race he won by less than a tenth and had 5 riders turn laps faster than he during the race. It just doesn't smell of domination on a level that would require rule changes to me. Especially when the other bikes are qualifying and finishing outside of the top 10. No one is griping about the Yamaha in WSBK it has dominated in every form of the word, especially on a track that should not have been a strong one for the power characteristics of its new plant, with Ben on it, but like the Buell, the second place bike has had lackluster finishes (yeah i know 6th at a wsbk isn't thaaat lackluster, but you get the point).
I'm honestly not sure why I feel this way, I have absolutely no good will torwards the Buells, I've ridden one and I thought it was a crude pig in nearly every way. I don't know or particularly like Danny, it just seems like the kid is riding his ass off, winning races against one of the most proven and talented racers to ever come through the AMA and its all being written off as the bike being the reason why. Just doesn't jive with my feel good waves man. :biggrin:
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 03:54:14 PM
David knows what it's like from his SV days. They are not faster because they are bigger, they are faster because they are faster.
My SV was not faster. Compared to a 600, it was a turd. If it fell off a 250 ft cliff at the same time as my old R6, it would have lost a race to the ground.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 24, 2009, 04:22:34 PM
My SV was not faster. Compared to a 600, it was a turd. If it fell off a 250 ft cliff at the same time as my old R6, it would have lost a race to the ground.
After being rocked past on Road America's middle straight by Ed on his superbike, I remeber saying in my helmet, "Just what is the terminal velocity of an SV" followed by the voice in the back of my head asking "african sv or european sv? laden or unladen?" Huh, I wonder why I never went fast at Road A on my SV. Too much time to think!!
We'll see Ben, you could be right. The Buell may be the e ticket ride this season. Danny is a fast rider and maybe it his time to shine too? Ed is just a spider monkey and his bikes are rediculous. Buells don't bother me either but I just couldn't own one. I don't know why I don't dislike them. They just aren't my thing. In all my years on a Ducati last season was the first time I ever broke a motor. I've blown up more SV's than I can remember.
My 848 has all the good parts in it so it should hold up. I take good care of them.
:biggrin:
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 04:47:28 PM
My 848 has all the good parts in it so it should hold up. I take good care of them.
:biggrin:
Can I ride it? :biggrin: Ive got a 1000 now all I need is a bike for the 600 classes. Just think, Ducati Omaha, 2010 GP #1 plate holder.
The poll could have been good, but was totally stupid. Look at the answer choices. None of them are worth a shit. The guy tries to be too cute on that site. Doesn't he work for Honda? I thought they were more reserved.
As far as the Buell this is my thought. I think the kid is just fast enough on that bike, not to be passed in a turn. I think the bike has enough grunt, that it leaves better riders behind leaving corners.
Sort of like a track day. The better rider on the SV650 works his butt off to catch a 1000 through the twisty part. Frustrated that the 1000 is just a little too fast to ever pass even though the guy on the powerful 1000 is actually holding him up. Then they hit some straight track and the guy on the 1000 smiles as he opens a gap. He knows in "his" mind he is good. Then he parks it in the next corner. I know in my mind I'm better on my SV and I'm going to throw a tantrum and pound his ass after the session for fucking up my trackday.
Jesus, I just had a flashback.
I think that its nice to see hard work finally pay-off for Buell. Not to mention a shit-ton of time and money invested into winning. Im not saying that the big four dont spend time and money, but I think Buell has always been fighting an up-hill battle. It probably would have been way easier to use a different engine configuration, but they stuck to their guns. Its an inspirational effort, to say the least.
The only beef I got with Buell racing, is with the 200. Why in the hell did Eslick have to get off the bike and do it the way it should have been done as soon as he pulled in. He could have been on a different pit schedule, that might have worked out if they changed tires and added gas while on the stop. Din't he get in trouble for working on the bike? Furthermore, the whole time I was watching to see who he hit, to no avail. He didn't hit a damn thing, it just fell off. Oh well, still got another 4 days before I can watch Fontana :wah:
What hard work, time and money by Buell? They went to Austria and bought a Rotex motor. A foreign motor. Screw them. If it was really an American sport bike, I'd have one by now. I'm not talking lights or brakes. Damn, the engine has to be American at least. Why didn't they just buy a Yosh bike, hire Mladdin, tattoo him, make him grow a beard, paint the bike orange and black, give him an arrest record, make him ride that fucker with no helmet and an ugly fat bitch on the back and they could call that a road king.
I just had an SV track day flash back too. How frustrating an SV can be at a track day.
Regarding Buell and racing. This is my observation. I think the Buell folks want to go racing and build competitive bikes but are held back by HD and all the baggage that comes with the HD way. I see so many people who want them to try to do well and build a competitive bike. They end up having to defend them to stay loyal to the point it starts sounding like some type of brain washing repetitive song. When I had a Buell I was really into it, but I heard excuse after excuse and all kinds of little sayings to the point it sounded like propaganda. I remember being in a BRAG meeting and listening to people talking about Crotch rockets and Jap bikes and I really just decided this was BS. Then when they came out with the XBR I gave up on them all together. My bike was falling apart and did not run most of the time. I just sold it and gave up. Now they say "it's not about the bike". Not sure what that one means but it seems to go against their entire previous culture.
Quote from: Ducati23 on March 24, 2009, 11:12:22 AM
When Eslick was on a 600 - a very well prepped and fast 600 did he ever beat Hacking in a straight fight. I don't think so.
Give the kid some credit.
If memory serves, Eslick (on a privateer Suzuki 600) finished on the podium twice last season and beat Tommy Hayden on his factory bike a couple times.
Maybe the kid is a better rider than you think. And maybe he's gelling with the 1125R better than others (Higbee, Barnes).
Seems like DMG got what they wanted. 6 brands in the top 8 and close, exciting racing. I think it's cool.
I believe they say the rider comes first, if you're talking about the promotion of the brand. I won't say that Buell is the end all, be all of bikes. I enjoy all 3 of mine, and really don't care what others think. That simple. :cheers:
SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET!
Quote from: GIGOLO on March 24, 2009, 11:16:52 PM
The only beef I got with Buell racing, is with the 200. Why in the hell did Eslick have to get off the bike and do it the way it should have been done as soon as he pulled in. He could have been on a different pit schedule, that might have worked out if they changed tires and added gas while on the stop.
It was an aftermarket pod that was coming off. Have you been to Daytona? Trap speeds were over 170 for Daytona Sportbike, and body parts flying off are a serious problem. It was gonna come off and hurt someone or him. Gotta be fixed. If not, he was gonna get blackflagged and left in another corner to try and fix the problem before going on by himself. Get in, see what you can do to loose the least amount of time. It happens.
As for the Rotax engine. Big company. They don't just have "a motor". They can do lots of stuff. Either way, Buell isn't an engine manufacturer. Rotax is. And Rotax will build to your specifications. Buell wanted some specific things that could be built to reduce weight, etc., all at a cost. So, they have their Buell specified Rotax motor. Why build your own stuff when you're small? Bimota, Harris, ROC, Rickman, Spondon, MZ, and others have done these things. Buell is still a whole lot smaller than Ducati.
I talked with Thermosman man about the Buells and Danny. Pretty much summed it up with those two were made for each other. Look at Danny compared to Michael Barnes, Barney definitely knows how to ride and he seems to be struggling with the bike. Not to mention I'm no where convinced the the Buell chassis is anywhere as good as the the Japanese I4's.
Also, Grant builds a good bike no doubt but it ain't no factory bike. -Snack
Quote from: Super Dave on March 25, 2009, 06:53:12 PM
It was gonna come off and hurt someone or him. Gotta be fixed. If not, he was gonna get blackflagged and left in another corner to try and fix the problem before going on by himself. Get in, see what you can do to loose the least amount of time. It happens.
I wasn't wondering why he came in, I'm saying I was embarrassed watching that happen. I felt bad for them, and at the same time pissed. Duct works okay at a track like BHF, but Daytona must be insane on bodywork. I heard that radiators always leak there too. I think I am going to learn a couple of things about Daytona before I get the money to go down there. Seems like a place that can kill your bank account.
No Dave I haven't been to Daytona, but next time you go I can hitch a ride with you. I can tall you about my stamp collection, my time spent living in Arkansas, my shoe size, my favorite food, why I like blue way more than green, how I got herpes, how I almost met wayne brady. ITS GONNA BE GREAT!!!!!!
LOL!
Yeah, Daytona can drain your account. It's a different place. Run up to Brainerd for a weekend on the long track and you'll get to put your knee down in sixth tapped out. Will help you appreciate some things.
Next time I go? Not sure. Not this year. Not in my plan. I'm old.
Quote from: SnacktimeKC on March 25, 2009, 07:41:59 PM
Also, Grant builds a good bike no doubt but it ain't no factory bike. -Snack
I've known Grant for a long time...since he popped out of MMI in the early 90's. He is an absolute mechanical genius. His only limits, IMHO, would be that of the glorious dollar bill. I am proud of how far he has come, and expect him to be a big player over the next decade. -Great guy!
-Ski
I think Slick is riding the wheels off the thing from what I saw of the 200.
he was hanging with Rapps bike that clearly had him out hped at Laguna last year, pulled an awesome pass in the last corner only to get out motored to the flag. I wish he could have finished the 200 without problems. The season will tell, but it sure would be nice to adjust weights mid season if the Buell proves to be faster than its adversaries. I recently heard this before, a bike that someone thinks is in the wrong class.....and he was being a dick about it like Hacking. ::) :whine:
Dave's right daytona's no place for cheap bodywork . the biggist problem there is the high bank has been falling apart for a couple of years and the transition onto the the high bank stinks especially the short course a couple of races and your windscreen is chewed up , the paint is all chipped off and you got rocks in your radiator you would think Jeff Gordon and the rest of that bunch would complain about that