What are are the best low cost data acquisition systems that can take in at least four inputs (engine RPM, front wheel speed, rear wheel speed, lap times, etc.)? Personally, I don't need a great user interface on the PC, just the data, though a low cost software program with a lot of features would be a bonus. In addition, does anyone know what sensors are available for these inputs / readings from stock supply houses like Digikey instead of paying double or triple from the data logger manufacturers?
Thanks!
Tiger Anthony
Well, I'm using the Starlane GPS lap timer with track mapping. No wheel speeds, but it gives track mapping with speed. I haven't hooked mine up to my tach yet, but I'll be doing that for this season.
It's a valuable lap timer because you don't need a beacon. Additionally, you can add your own splits. And since you're putting in all your splits, etc. it's consistent week after week. So, you can look at and compare your data with some amount of consistency.
We've used the MPH and track mapping data to reduce some of our need for track time in learning tracks. Reduces our lying to ourselves since we have to deal with actual data that says whether we're letting off and for how long.
Quote from: Hank Reardon on February 01, 2009, 01:20:44 PM
Well, I'm using the Starlane GPS lap timer with track mapping. No wheel speeds, but it gives track mapping with speed. I haven't hooked mine up to my tach yet, but I'll be doing that for this season.
It's a valuable lap timer because you don't need a beacon. Additionally, you can add your own splits. And since you're putting in all your splits, etc. it's consistent week after week. So, you can look at and compare your data with some amount of consistency.
We've used the MPH and track mapping data to reduce some of our need for track time in learning tracks. Reduces our lying to ourselves since we have to deal with actual data that says whether we're letting off and for how long.
I second this.... The Star Lane unit was a huge benefit for me this past season. I was able to actually sit out the Freezing cold practice at Brainerd this past season and go out in the Unlimited Superbike race and come a wheel short of beating Conrad to the line for the win.
All came down to the fact that the track mapping mentally helped me put together a fast lap before I even went out - Just based on the information from the last time I was there....
Good stuff - But If you are looking for actual wheel speed and some of the other little things that a real Data system has to offer - I think you will end up spending a bit more money...
Jason Farell can prolly comment on this a bit better - I think he was working with the AIM unit this past season....
I gotta quit forgeting to sign myself into my account before I post stuff.... So that was my comment directly above here. I did mount the unit on Meghan's bike at a few tracks last season - Just to get some additional data.... She liked using the unit because you have a greater chance of actually getting a reading on your laptime - On a non-Gps unit - If the beacon doesn't trigger - Or is blocked - You won't get your last laptime.....
Quote from: Scotty Ryan on February 01, 2009, 06:48:51 PMShe liked using the unit because you have a greater chance of actually getting a reading on your laptime - On a non-Gps unit - If the beacon doesn't trigger - Or is blocked - You won't get your last laptime.....
Exactly. I didn't recognize that the wind changed and left my gearing all wrong at Atlanta in '07. Someone took their beacon home Sunday AM, and I had no times to recognize the mess. I made no gearing changes because of a lack of recognition of my problem. I lost time.
The Starlane has some nice features, but I'll have to figure out how much their higher end units cost with the PC download feature. The AIM unit runs $550 and has 4 inputs including RPM, speed, temperature and throttle position. It looks like you can hook up a wheel speed sensor. No GPS, from what I can see, so you probably need interval beacons to catch intervals. Bike speed and engine RPM are the primary requirements, moreso than split times, though they all seem to have good interval capability. With the RPM data, you can study your corner exit RPM for each gear and pick the gear (and the number of teeth on each gear in your gearbox) to optimize drive out of each corner exit. On your torque and power curves, you typically want to come out of the corner near the peak torque or just before it (depending on the bike and it's curves, maybe 500 RPM before peak for a 4 cyl) to have max drive out of the corner and jam it (with enough headroom) until the bike is upright enough to shift up smoothly. For twins the torque curve is flatter, so it's not as big of a concern, but I'm planning to study this a bit this next month. Honda reps were talking about this in an issue of Red Rider a year or two ago. They set up their factory AMA bikes with the sprockets and gearing to optimize drive out of each corner at each track. The lap interval timing helps, especially when you can compare different riders to see where you can go faster. This other method helps to refine the best gears and sprockets for each corner. Fun stuff. The wheel position sensors aren't as important, but they can tell you if you're rear is slipping too much and losing drive. They seem to be more important for traction control, which isn't in the plan or budget. Looking for an economical system. The GPS systems have some great features. Still hoping for more input from experienced users of other systems for comparison. Thanks!
i use the aim system but its not cheap but Jason Farrell is the one to ask questions
If your interested in track mapping at all, consider the software. You can have the best data logger, but without simple analysis software it'll be a pain to use. There's quite a few outfits that use wheel rpm + accelerometers for tracking, but unless they have gyro's, it'll get screwed up with the back and forth leaning of a bike. So, you really do want the GPS. The better softwares will use speed and g-force to interpolate a track map.
I'm planning on buying the "race-technology" data logger with the "dash2" display. The price is reasonable ($1400 for the combo). It comes with internal 5 Hz GPS and 3 axis accelerometer. It also has 8 analog inputs for whatever you want to use them for. The thing that I really like about it is that it doesn't rely on internal memory. All data is output to compact flash card. It seems like the internal memory is what drives the cost up on these things. With the CFC's you can have separate cards for each track, or each rider, or whatever. Plus, when you crash and destroy the display you don't lose your data.
However, I don't race a bike that is "supported" by AIM-sports. If you're running a GSXR/CBR/R?/ZX6 the one from AIM might be pretty good because (as I understand it) it directly interfaces with the ECU, making it an easy install.
Of course, if you want the hottest of the hot, contact Magnet-Marelli, and for $10,000 they'll hook you up!
Further, while the AIM system is $550, how much are the sensors? Last I looked at them, some of the sensors were at or above the $400 mark!
Data Acquisition in a reliable and usable manner is not going to be cheap...
I believe that the AIM 'plug and play' is designed to take data directly from the ECU?, reducing the need for sensors? Of course, if you want feedback from suspension or exhaust temp/o2, it'll be more. There is a wide range in prices for linear position sensors, but 250-400 is in the ballpark.
But its not all bad, If your bike is FI, you already have TPS to splice into, and you're speed sensor (many are just inductive pick-ups) most likely can also serve dual purpose.
There are DA systems that will feed data over video... so that not only will you have track mapping, but you can see what's going on with the bike on video- Some even have live telemetry... so that your pit crew can yell at you while you ride.
By the time I trick out my system I expect it to cost about $2500. But I'll be making all my own brackets, and wiring it myself. For about that amount I'll have RPM, TPS, fork, shock, O2, with spare inputs for monitoring airbox pressure or tire temps.
The AIM system with dash,GPS,wheel speed,angle,throttle pos,brake pressure,O2 sensor,gear position is about 5500.00 oh ya it measures g force too. You are DEFINITELY gonna need some instruction from the aim boys too!
Quote from: Boober on February 02, 2009, 11:32:23 PM
The AIM system with dash,GPS,wheel speed,angle,throttle pos,brake pressure,O2 sensor,gear position is about 5500.00 oh ya it measures g force too. You are DEFINITELY gonna need some instruction from the aim boys too!
Boober has the price for our systems pretty close to on target.
We have just about every possible sensor you can put on a bike for racing.
I run all our systems on our race bikes. It takes some serious training to setup, run & understand what your looking at. I wouldn't buy an elaborate system unless you get some serious training or you will become overwhelmed with all the data. You will get lost. I spent a couple years studying the data and trying to figure out how to use the data.
It's not so much having a bunch of inputs to read and look at but how you can mix them together and make math channels with them to get more data by making math channels.
If you want a serious system, expect to pay someone to help you during a race weekend. There is constant checking all the sensors to make sure things don't go wrong with them.
You basically make your own wiring harness to wire it all up. One loose wire or bad sensor placement and the data is useless or can mislead you.
Expect to spend serious cash of about $5000 - $7000 for a really good system & the sensors you need. Plus if you can't wire it yourself you will need to pay to have someone install it. You also need spare sensors in canse of a component failure.
Once you have access to good data & someone to help you use it you will never want to race a bike without it. You feel naked without data.
I highly recommend it to anyone who can afford any system that can tell them information about what is going on with their bikes.
There is no better way to understand & learn to go faster than with data on your bike with a good coach. As the cost of the systems come down in the future I hope to see more racers with them on their bikes. Data helps you go faster through understanding what you and or your bike is doing. Data won't work for riders with big egos. Cause data doesn't lie!
You can get into a plug & play system for your bike for approximately $1800 without cost of any sensors.
For more info go to www.aimsports.com (http://www.aimsports.com) for more information. Or send me a PM on what you are looking for. I sell the systems and can assist you with installing & training.
There are certainly good data aquisition systems available for way less than $5000, but the issue is: How difficult is the installation? and How difficult is the data to understand?
Basically there are three types of data that result:
1. What are you (the rider) doing?
2. What is the motor doing?
3. What is the chassis doing?
The most significant of these is probably the 1st one. So a system that has RPM and TPS inputs, along with internal GPS and accelerometers will show you where you're braking, where you're turning in, and when you get on the throttle. For most people, this is as sophisticated as is necessary.
The motor dynamics is also understandable to the lay-racer, but probably needs someone who really understands what's going on with FI mapping to make full use of it.
The chassis data is the least digestable. Here we're talking about 10 different things all happening at the same time. For gathering this data, its important to have a very fast update rate, I'd consider 75-100Hz to be the minimum. Even at 100Hz, your only picking up data every 1 foot @ 80MPH. Here its very important to have good software that will use data from all sources to accurately graph whats going on.
It's important to consider that all of this is still in its infancy, and that even Moto-GP teams are struggling to understand all the data they can collect. Its unlikely that there will ever be system available that will gather data from 20 laps and afterwards say: "take out 1/4 turn of rebound". At least for now you'll need a good understanding of data manipulation to get good results.
If you choose to use a system that is not supported by local builders (like speed tech), you're pretty much just on your own. So if you're not a rocket scientist or similar, just buy what everybody else is buying.
I think that Jason pretty much summed it up right there... Data is Very Important... Even if it's just the info you write down in your notebook after you get back in from a practice or qualifying session..
Again, the low cost entry level system is the goal for this year. I can swing $500 or $800, but not $2k or more. Hoping to get into bike speed, engine RPM, and maybe a wheel or exhaust sensor. 4 inputs is probably enough. Next year, if I'm still looking to learn and expand on this data acquisition stuff, I can sell the entry level system off and upgrade. Spending enough already this year, as you all know the budget side of things.
The three leading candidates in my price range:
1. MyChron Light TG LOG for $550 which includes the RPM, water temperature, wheel speed, and throttle position sensors along with the USB cable, one beacon, and Race Studio 2 software. Seems like a decent starter package, but it can not be built upon later (it is what it is). Sample rate only 10 hz per channel.
2. Starlane GPS system (Athon R for $800 with PC download capability as opposed to the $1,800 entry level DAS). Includes timer, tachometer, speed, bluetooth Data Link, and DigiRace LE software. Not sure of the sample rate. Can not be built upon later.
3. Advantage Motorsports - Professional Data Logger for $595 includes control unit and four inputs, 30 samples per second sample rate, Windows based software, with track mapping and download cable, axle (MPH) sensor and magnet with wiring harness included. Doesn't look like it has all the basic sensors, so this will cost more. Can take additional sensor inputs.
Realistically, I'm not planning to get into suspension measurements or tuning this year. I'm looking for a low cost system that can give me vehicle speed, RPM, throttle posn, and one or two wheel speeds. This way, I can play with sprockets and gearing to optimize corner exit speed and drive, and measure time from corner to corner using the software instead of additional beacons.
How is the Race Studio 2 software? Easy to learn the basics (RPM, times, throttle, and temperature)? A lot of riders are migrating to the GPS systems, but the pricing starts at $800 and more sensors are needed. Thanks for the input so far. Tiger
I would not buy the Advantage Motorsports logger. It does not have GPS and calculates track mapping from speed and accelerometer sensors. This works great in a car, but on a bike that leans over, it won't work. The other problem is that it only accepts 4 analog inputs, which is fine if all you want to see is TPS, RPM, speed, and acceleration... but down the line you'll be disappointed.
Ask yourself whether you need a display-type logger or just want to aquire data. If you are fine with using the stock instrumentation, and don't want a new gauge setup, then you can look at the data only systems. If you want the fancy display, I couldn't find anything below the $1500-1800 range that also has good expansion capability.
A sample rate of only 10Hz means that its only good for a lap timer (if that). That's why I decided on the "race-technology" system. Its got 5Hz GPS, 100Hz sampling, 3-axis accelerometer, and 8 analog inputs. The basic logger costs $850, if you add the gauge display its $1400 (plus sensors of course). It also has telemetry expansion capability and the software is capable of downloading to excel files (which would be good for developing FI maps). Unfortunately, its a universal type system... meaning you get to figure out how to wire it, but they do seem to have good tech support and a decent online user BBS.
The main difference between the Race technology system and the others is the way it stores data. All others save data to an internal drive that you can download to a computer. The race technology systems uses CFC format, so no cable is necessary. It also helps bring the cost down.
If you cannot afford $1500-$2500, personally, I'd save up for the next year and get something better.
I have a www.traqmate.com. It does everything. Check out their site. Will sell it for cheap.
Thanks Jason, 123, and all.
That Race Technology DL1 system looks quite powerful. If I can use the current sensors already on the bike (from an old MyChron system), $850 buys all the features that I need for a few seasons. It's got the GPS and accelerometers in the standard package. Hopefully their software is easy to learn and flexible enough to pull the data and play with it. Nobody has commented on the power or flexibility of their software. Will probably call their technical help line and report back here on the specs and software soon. Tiger
I haven't actually talked to anyone at race technology directly because they're in the UK. I talked to someone at www.veracitydata.com to discuss the pro/con of the system vs. other. They rep for Race Technology, MoTec, Aim, Pi research...etc so they have a pretty good idea what they're talking about.
You can see a demo of their software on the race technology website, and the full package is downloadable FOR FREE. It seems pretty user friendly to me. It does appear that you will have to "calibrate" the software to your analog inputs. Different TPS's output different potentials. Until recently, most Magnet Marelli had linear-ish TPS's, I have no idea what the Jap stuff is though.
Wheel rpm is a digital input, so just about any kind of on/off switch (inductive prox, hall effect... you get the picture) will work. The logger has both high and low/level rpm input. That means if you're ecu can output a direct signal to the tach you can just use that... or you can hook it up the old fashion way, to the neg. side of the coil.
My plan is to buy the DL1 and install in my van this winter to get used to working with the software.
Just a side note: If you're lucky enough to be riding something made in Italy, germany, austria you should have no problem finding the right connectors. These use Molex and Ampseal, commercially available connectors almost exclusively. It does seem like the japs like to design their own connectors, so you may have to splice the ol' fashion way if you race a rice-burner. This is where the expensive "plug n play" systems are nice.
I only had throttle position and rpm sensors hooked up on mine. Worked well. Built in features were things like track mapping, gps lap times, gas on, brake on, speed tracking, split times, etc. Accelerometers on a motorcycle actually suck. Skid zones are made for 4 wheel vehicles. Onces the bike leans it throws them off. I'll sell mine for $600.
The Race Technology DL1 is looking like a powerful entry-level system. They now offer a 20 hz upgrade on the GPS for $1100 for the data logger as opposed to $850 for the 5 hz GPS sampling rate. 100hz on the other 8 channels. They have an office in the US with an experienced applications engineer available to answer technical questions. Phone number's on their website. The DL1 system hooks up with some bike's ECUs with a cable / CAN adapter for a few hundred more, and the system can then access any sensors on the bike that run to the bike's ECU. Looks like a great deal for the price. I've heard that motorcycle riders will put the case in a Ziploc to keep rain from getting into the housing (CF slot not sealed), but they report few failures from water getting inside. It's easy to move from bike to bike to use the GPS and track mapping functions, and you can overlay laps from different riders to see differences in corner speeds, brake points, etc. If your bike has FI, it has the throttle position sensor already. Don't need to buy a lot of sensors unless you're looking at the suspension or traction control.