.. just noticed the Ducati 1098 is legal for Heavy weight? I knew it was legal in F40 and it should have dawned on me that F40 rules are like HW but man o' man.. Don't these things put out 170+ Hp with typical mods?
Thank God they're so expensive,HP tracks are where you really get killed,needless to say.They have their reasons,I'm not for it personally.
If I had a 750 or planned on running HW on a 600 I wouldn't like a 1098 flying by me on the straights.
This is a good rule!
Clayton is loving this.
I'm gonna have to drop fifty pounds just so I can keep that 1098 in sight. :wah:
They didn't exclude the 1098R did they? :biggrin:
HA!! That's a good one.The only good news is you really have to improve everywhere else on the track to compete.
Quote from: Ducati23 on January 15, 2009, 03:42:47 PM
They didn't exclude the 1098R did they? :biggrin:
Yes, all 1198's are out. But the problem is this: a 1098, even stock with basic race prep (let alone a SuperSport build) makes as much as a 750 with Superbike build. So how is that fair, when a 750 guy has to keep investing money in SB engine builds, refreshes, etc? I guess that a 1098 costs more up front, but not that much more, to offset what needs to be spent to make a 750 HP competitive with a 1098. Also, there is the reliability issue with a stock motor vs. one with a SB build, so even if the money comes out even, the reliability doesn't. Also, that only addresses SuperBike, not SuperSport, where there is basically no way to make up the 750's HP deficit.
At least the 1198's, which could compete effectively against 1000's, are gone from HW, so thank goodness for that; but the fact remains that twin-cylinder technology is so good now that the displacement limits differences that were previously in place to allow the V-twins to remain competitive are now outdated, and need to be re-examined.
Just my 2-cents as a 750 rider, but it doesn't seem fair, especially at the HP tracks. If there was a huge handling cost to running a 1098, then maybe I could see that, but that's not the case at all.
Quote from: kl3640 on January 15, 2009, 09:23:26 PM
Also, that only addresses SuperBike, not SuperSport, where there is basically no way to make up the 750's HP deficit.
The limit is still 1000cc's for v-twins in Super Sport.
I don't beleive that the 1098R is legal for HWSB - since I think the actual displacement of the 1098R is 1198cc.
1098 and 1098S are, in fact, 1098cc.
Ducati were going to straighten out this naming convention, but then they saw a nice resteraunt accross the street and dedided to have lunch instead...
How will tech inspectors keep track of this? The bikes look incredibly similar do they not?
Quote from: G-reg on January 16, 2009, 09:04:38 AM
The limit is still 1000cc's for v-twins in Super Sport.
Thanks for the info, didn't know that, but it certainly makes HW SS more reasonable.
Still though, for HW SB, a 1098 is competitive with a built 750, and that's before the 1098 motor has even been touched.
Also, as Melk-Man pointed out, the ability to tell the difference easily at tech inspection is very difficult.
Quote from: kl3640 on January 16, 2009, 07:15:30 PM
Thanks for the info, didn't know that, but it certainly makes HW SS more reasonable.
Still though, for HW SB, a 1098 is competitive with a built 750, and that's before the 1098 motor has even been touched.
Also, as Melk-Man pointed out, the ability to tell the difference easily at tech inspection is very difficult.
pre printed protest forms and the money to remove the heads. (dont remember what that is now)
greg, was it an issue in 07 and 08? because the rule hasnt changed other then to exclude the 1198 and the 1098R(which is really 1198cc). I do see your point that externally you cant tell the difference, but then again a gsxr 600 and 750 look pretty much the same externally as well. How many 750s do you think get run in the 600 class every year? a stock 1098 makes rwhp around 135 hp+- vs a stock 750 at around 125hp +-vs a stock 1000 in the 155 hp+ - range. yes its a little stronger then a 750 just as the 848 is a little stronger then a 600 but they dont rev near as quick as the I4.
Quote from: ahastings on January 17, 2009, 08:07:20 PM
greg, was it an issue in 07 and 08? because the rule hasnt changed other then to exclude the 1198 and the 1098R(which is really 1198cc). I do see your point that externally you cant tell the difference, but then again a gsxr 600 and 750 look pretty much the same externally as well. How many 750s do you think get run in the 600 class every year? a stock 1098 makes rwhp around 135 hp+- vs a stock 750 at around 125hp +-vs a stock 1000 in the 155 hp+ - range. yes its a little stronger then a 750 just as the 848 is a little stronger then a 600 but they dont rev near as quick as the I4.
that is a little better.. is there a Duc that puts out 165+ or more stock? i may be thinking of the 1198 R model or something. The 750 does look alot like the 600 but on track racing side by side you can usually tell. The Duc's however look so much alike, it would take someone familiar with the models to know. Im only complaining cause i dont' have the minerals to step up n buy a bigger bike again.
well the 1098R puts out some big number but it is actually 1198cc and is excluded from the class. I think you would be able to tell the difference just like with the 750 vs the 600 because of the acceleration of the bike. Rumor is Ducati is possibly dropping contingency anyway so if that happens I think there will be less of them being raced. I know my 848s will be up for sale as soon as I find out officially. I'm probably going to race a 750 myself if this is the case.
165 stock? No way.
A well tuned (pipes, ECU, etc...)1098 will make between 150-155 if you get a good one.
The 1098R (1198) in the same state of tune will add between 10-15hp to the 1098.
The 1198 will likely make 160-165 after tuning. Again, this version is NOT legal for the HWT stuff.
In truth, you can just look at the VIN number or model year sticker. All 2009 bikes will have the 1198 capacity while the older bikes are 1098.
nobody has a 2009 Duc that i know of. I see A BUNCH of 07-08 1098 bikes however. At Homestead this weekend there were no FEWER than 10 DUcati 1098 bikes, some of which the riders admitted the HP was over 190. HOW is that a HW bike?
Does WERA allow these bikes in heavy wt classes??
greg, do you really believe that 190hp. that would practically be a factory superbike. Unfortunatelly for you there are a lot of Ducati people with money in Florida which is not the case in most other regions. As for WERA the 1098 is allowed only in B superbike but must remain superstock legal otherwise the limit is 1000cc twins. WERA's B class is the same as CCS Hvywt.
The 2007 and 2008 1098R is an 1198 which might get close to 190hp with a shit load of money thrown at it. The black swingarm was the easy visual cue that it is an R, instead of the silver swingers on the regular bikes.
I agree with you that the R has no business racing in HWT, and CCS agrees as they have a displacement limit for twins.
I have a feeling that the guys you were talking with are either full of shit about their HP figures, or they are extremely well funded. An R starts at about $40k and getting the power to that lever, well, god knows what that would cost.
Quote from: Eye-p on January 18, 2009, 10:30:14 PM
The 2007 and 2008 1098R is an 1198 which might get close to 190hp with a shit load of money thrown at it. The black swingarm was the easy visual cue that it is an R, instead of the silver swingers on the regular bikes.
I agree with you that the R has no business racing in HWT, and CCS agrees as they have a displacement limit for twins.
I have a feeling that the guys you were talking with are either full of shit about their HP figures, or they are extremely well funded. An R starts at about $40k and getting the power to that lever, well, god knows what that would cost.
not full of it.. guys in FL spend some serious $ on bikes. The fact there were that many at a TRACK day at Homestead speaks volumes. Why race em if you DONT spend some cash to make em better is what we see down here.
I "participated" (was hardly racing) in the formula 40 event at Daytona. Marco M. came by me on the banking faster than any bike i had ridden with up to that point (did'nt do the 1000cc practice sessions). And my r6 is not slow.
I just do not really understand if heavy wt was for 750cc bikes or smaller, why is there a bike with OVER 1000cc in the class? I like the WERA rule and keep them in superbike. A bored 750cc bike is getting up there in displacement, and if your willing to spend money on rebuilds every 500miles you can get a reliable155hp from a 750.
I love my 2008 Trebour Racing 1098S and cant wait to finally start from the first wave this season! :cheers:
I track day with a buddy who has a 2mil over GSXR 750 with a few more goodies and honestly that thing will pull the Duc no prob on top end, down low the Duc will hold its own, but up top, no contest...
I ran that bike with bone stock suspension all season and after seeing what Thermosman did to my GSXR 1k at Daytona I cant wait to ride the Duc with properly setup suspension!
Are the rumors true that Ducati may cut contingency this season out???
That would really suck!
See you guys at the races!
Dennis
Yes Greg don't you just love it!!! :wtf: check the history over at the jennings site. Complaints started early in the season from several guys, like Mike Rulo, Mark Carbahal, myself.... Letters were written...e-mails were exchanged....with Eric Kelcher. :banghead: his responce to me half way thru the season was that there was no domination by the 1098 or 1198. But my search of all ccs finishes at the time was like 13 wins and several top 2 and 3. Now with only maybe 6-10 of these running against many many other brands on paper it looked like total domination to any one who chose to look!!! :sleeping2: Eric's responce after my evidence was that these rules were put into place way back at the end of the 07 season and people purchased bikes based on these rules so no changes were going to happen. I was in a fierce points battle with Ric Ortiz on his 1098 wich came down to the last 2 laps of our last race. I won the am F40 title but only due to a T10 crash by Ric with a 6sec, lead. I have spoken with many experts and mechanics at the races ( Marco, Sean Preito, Eric Gray etc.) and not 1 person view it as fair. It was sick to watch the torque monster launch of the line at the start and pull 4-5 bike lengths by T1 race after race. I would just put my head down and hope for trouble with lappers or a mistake on his part. In the GTO races the Duc ran very well against the 1000'S :err: I'm with Mike R (he pulled ouy of F40 early in the season for this reason) in the belief that Ducatti bought them selves some championships across the country :finger: and even with many people crying foul they saw fit to only eliminate the 1198 and allow the 1098 to run UNSB and F40. Don't get me wrong I love the 1098 but if you are gonna let it run F40 than the 1k should be allowed in also. My humble opinion is that it should run unlimited classes only!!!!!!! :wah: :wah:
Quote from: RAISING CANE on January 20, 2009, 02:38:49 AM
Yes Greg don't you just love it!!! :wtf: check the history over at the jennings site. Complaints started early in the season from several guys, like Mike Rulo, Mark Carbahal, myself.... Letters were written...e-mails were exchanged....with Eric Kelcher. :banghead: his responce to me half way thru the season was that there was no domination by the 1098 or 1198. But my search of all ccs finishes at the time was like 13 wins and several top 2 and 3. Now with only maybe 6-10 of these running against many many other brands on paper it looked like total domination to any one who chose to look!!! :sleeping2: Eric's responce after my evidence was that these rules were put into place way back at the end of the 07 season and people purchased bikes based on these rules so no changes were going to happen. I was in a fierce points battle with Ric Ortiz on his 1098 wich came down to the last 2 laps of our last race. I won the am F40 title but only due to a T10 crash by Ric with a 6sec, lead. I have spoken with many experts and mechanics at the races ( Marco, Sean Preito, Eric Gray etc.) and not 1 person view it as fair. It was sick to watch the torque monster launch of the line at the start and pull 4-5 bike lengths by T1 race after race. I would just put my head down and hope for trouble with lappers or a mistake on his part. In the GTO races the Duc ran very well against the 1000'S :err: I'm with Mike R (he pulled ouy of F40 early in the season for this reason) in the belief that Ducatti bought them selves some championships across the country :finger: and even with many people crying foul they saw fit to only eliminate the 1198 and allow the 1098 to run UNSB and F40. Don't get me wrong I love the 1098 but if you are gonna let it run F40 than the 1k should be allowed in also. My humble opinion is that it should run unlimited classes only!!!!!!! :wah: :wah:
VERY interesting.. the response by CCS to another rider and friend of mine that has complained was "nobody complained"..
Comment that "no one complained" must be in the proper context, during the open comment period for 2008 rules there was no comment, complaint or other request to look into twins displacement limits in Heavyweight SuperBike, thus no research was done at that time.
After rules are finalized/announced riders have made bike, class and season plans dependent on the rulebook and our word to honor and enforce those rules. To yank them out of a class mid season is a VERY serious issue.
The "complaints/comments" that came mid season were were from a few people mostly centered in/around FL in regard to select bikes (I believe they were all 1198cc machines). Upon review mid season the basis of the complaints was that a SuperSport legal Middleweight machine was not able to compete against a bike built to Heavyweight SuperBike rules. When a rider runs up in displacement levels there is a disadvantage, when a rider rides up in modification levels there is a disadvantage. If there were not advantages to certain bikes, sizes, modifications then there would only be one class. When checking locally on what machines were competing no Heavyweight SuperBikes were found only Heavy SuperSport machines or very lightly modded (wheels/tires, not engine like there was to the Ducati machines and basis of comments). How much advantage a displacement/modification increase is can be dependent on the track, rider, type of machine, setup etc. Based on the localized nature of comments a mid season rule change was not the course of action that was chosen by CCS instead it would undergo full review by rules committee for 2009 rulebook.
Upon rule committee review the Heavyweight bikes were found they slightly down at the 775cc limit to HP numbers of the Ducati 1098 machines but would be same level with the more common 818cc displacement mod for GSXR750. The 1198 machines hp exceeded what was a reliable ceiling for any modded GSXR750 and were eliminated.
Is there an easy way to tell if a bike is a 1098 or 1198? How did CCS determine that the horesepower of a 1098 is equal to a ss legal 750? And is what your saying that the lack of superbike built 750 bikes (wheels,bored,cams,etc) is what was the decision to allow the 1098 in 750 supersport?? What if there are riders that don't tell you that info so they can run the 750 in ss AND sb.??
The best riders will always get to the front. It is more about the faster regional riders (not on a national skill level) trying to earn what contingency is possible, especially tire money. It just appeared the Ducati 1098 was a crazy fast machine. It was just my observation, but then recently i hear similar things from others including some faster regional riders.
I'm in agreement with Greg.
Ugh timed out
2007-2008 1098 is 1098cc 1098R is 1198cc 1098R adds factory traction control with related pick-ups etc, VIN/EIn coding, plus 90% sure the cylinders are stamped with displacement, and we have tools to spot check displacement.
1098 was never allowed into Heavyweight(750) Supersport and comparisons were made of Superbikes, the numbers were found to be the same between Ducati 1098 superbike and GSXR750(815cc) at roughly 140hp as measured on Factory Pro dyno.
Ducati 1098 may appear to be a crazy fast machine when compared to bikes riding up 1, 2, 3 + classes likewise a Supersport SV650 would say running Middleweight Superbike a R6 that was 660cc, with carbon fiber wheels, Ohlins SB suspension, slicks, etc was also crazy fast.
Rules commitee had to compare apples to apples which meant upper limits of rules; not what most people rode in a class, cost, reliablity or any other limit.
THanks for the explanation Eric. Will see how things go this season. May work out just fine, and the bikes MAY be fair in respective classes I just hope CCS will keep an eye on things and an open mind, as well as open ear to what riders say.
Just for the record, My complaints were not in an attempt to get the Duc pulled from comp. mid season. I agree that would be over kill and unfair. Only that the rules be reviewed and changed for future seasons if needed. On a final note WSB, argueably the closest, most intense series for the last few years runs the Duc against the liter bikes :thumb:
Quote from: RAISING CANE on January 20, 2009, 11:24:09 PM
On a final note WSB, argueably the closest, most intense series for the last few years runs the Duc against the liter bikes :thumb:
That was were i was initially getting my "WTF" look on my face when i saw them lining up last year. THen i found there were 2 models, one with traction control, etc. However it gets back to anyone with the $ to buy the "tame" one will make it "not-so-tame" if given the oportunity, and the contingency gives the motive.
The 1098R (1198cc) bike is a totally different machine from the 1098 and 1098S bikes, in terms of engine size, titanium internals, traction control, etc. I think the new rules of eliminating the 1198cc Ducati's (1098R and '09 1198's) is fair against HWSB machinery. I have ridden my 1098 on the track with a 1098R and at Summit point I was passed on the straight like I was standing still. Huge difference in these machines.
As far as a simple visual, all 1198cc Ducati's come from the factory with a black swingarm. The 1099cc 1098 Ducati's are silver.
Quote from: TStinson on January 22, 2009, 10:49:50 PM
As far as a simple visual, all 1198cc Ducati's come from the factory with a black swingarm. The 1099cc 1098 Ducati's are silver.
I can fix that for $5.
Quote from: MELK-MAN on January 21, 2009, 10:44:34 AM
That was were i was initially getting my "WTF" look on my face when i saw them lining up last year. THen i found there were 2 models, one with traction control, etc. However it gets back to anyone with the $ to buy the "tame" one will make it "not-so-tame" if given the oportunity, and the contingency gives the motive.
your talking about one class hwt superbike-the only contingency in that class is tire money. Considering you are bumping up into that class anyway a true 750 superbike would blow awy your r6 on horsepower just as much as duc 1098 superbike. After a little more research it is easy to tell a 1098r or 1198 from an actuall 1098
1) the 1198 will be a 2009 model they werent made in 08 or 07
2) the 1098r will have wheel speed sensors on the front wheel for the traction control system.
As for someone building their 1098 motor into an 1198 well nothing you can do about that any more then say someone dropping a 750 motor in their 600 and running mw superbike.
Quote from: ahastings on January 23, 2009, 09:02:01 AM
your talking about one class hwt superbike-the only contingency in that class is tire money. Considering you are bumping up into that class anyway a true 750 superbike would blow awy your r6 on horsepower just as much as duc 1098 superbike. After a little more research it is easy to tell a 1098r or 1198 from an actuall 1098
1) the 1198 will be a 2009 model they werent made in 08 or 07
2) the 1098r will have wheel speed sensors on the front wheel for the traction control system.
As for someone building their 1098 motor into an 1198 well nothing you can do about that any more then say someone dropping a 750 motor in their 600 and running mw superbike.
Buell pays manufacturer contingency in every CCS Heavyweight Superbike event.
Nobody seems 2 care about Buell 1125
Quote from: ahastings on January 23, 2009, 09:02:01 AM
your talking about one class hwt superbike-the only contingency in that class is tire money. Considering you are bumping up into that class anyway a true 750 superbike would blow awy your r6 on horsepower just as much as duc 1098 superbike. After a little more research it is easy to tell a 1098r or 1198 from an actuall 1098
1) the 1198 will be a 2009 model they werent made in 08 or 07
2) the 1098r will have wheel speed sensors on the front wheel for the traction control system.
As for someone building their 1098 motor into an 1198 well nothing you can do about that any more then say someone dropping a 750 motor in their 600 and running mw superbike.
Very true Arnie. I was talking with Chris BOy at Motocorse and he builds sweet Ducs. He pointed out some things to tell as you describe including the texture of the engine cases. As far as a 750 in a gsxr600, you can sometimes suspect a cheater motor if your racing close to them. TOp 5 guys doing that should be ashamed, and I would protest if I suspected such a thing. FUrther back, I wouldn't be concerned but they should still be ashamed. It does happen, and sometimes you don't know.
Quote from: ktd on January 23, 2009, 12:40:50 PM
Nobody seems 2 care about Buell 1125
Well, I don't think that is the point. Really, each class should have an importance placed on them as they take up space during the event weekend and generate entry fees. If not, they aren't needed.
Quote from: ktd on January 23, 2009, 12:40:50 PM
Nobody seems 2 care about Buell 1125
thats because it doesnt have near the horsepower of a duc 1098, its closer to a duc 848. See where the AMA put it right- with the 600s.
A good rider on a well-set up 1125R can be competitive. Shawn Higbee took a lightly modded 1125R and cleaned up on all the Ducatis at several WSMC events last season. He set a new twins class lap record, and won a ton of Buell contingency money.
Danny Bilansky and Clint Brotz won the overall ASRA Team Challenge race at Road America on a MOTO-ST spec 1125R.
I think you'll see a few more of them out there this season.
Quote from: PJ on January 23, 2009, 08:25:29 PM
A good rider on a well-set up 1125R can be competitive. Shawn Higbee took a lightly modded 1125R and cleaned up on all the Ducatis at several WSMC events last season. He set a new twins class lap record, and won a ton of Buell contingency money.
Danny Bilansky and Clint Brotz won the overall ASRA Team Challenge race at Road America on a MOTO-ST spec 1125R.
I think you'll see a few more of them out there this season.
Paul, you guys kicked butt on the Buell even surviving being "torpedoed" by a duc at Daytona. Man, i saw that crash on SPEED and i was like "did you see that" . Got to see it a bunch of times with TiVO. Glad Jeff was Ok. And congrats on the TC title.